Virtual Reality

[Nestharus]

I don't know, but to me, as I come up with more and more ideas for games, they require more and more advanced input systems, and eventually they get so realistic as to merit an entire system dedicated to full immersion.

Based on current technology, many people say that these types of systems are too costly and that technology is not to the point where something like this can be achieved.

However, I myself think that things like these can be achieved if the quality is lowered a bit.

For example, a current model for a computer I'm looking into (not currently designed, just an idea) would be something similar to a laptop, except that it would not have a keyboard, a monitor, a touch pad, or really any input devices. It would have USB ports for external devices and wi-fi along with a pair of wi-fi data gloves and a wi-fi headset.

From here, you could use the gloves to type on a virtual keyboard, move windows with your hands, and well, : P.

Also, this would allow a whole new age of gaming. Do motions with your hands to cast spells or actually hold a gun or w/e. From here, you could define an origin with the computer upon setup for each user and then use that origin for things like moving windows or holding a gun or what not.

Personally, I believe the costs of a system like this would be within the range of $500.00 to $800.00. Models like this aren't being mass produced are even really looked into, so the only current models are extremely high-tech high-bandwith w/e models that have costs in the thousands and thousands of dollars. No wonder people think that it would just be totally impossible.

Granted, this would just be the start. With the creation of a model similar to this, I believe that technology would expand, especially with the use of quantum mechanics. Remember, a new technology using quantum mechanics is going to be released in the next few years that uses 0s, 1s, and 2s. In this way, actual AI can be achieved, new limits of processing power can be reached, and well, =).

There's also another technology that's being worked on and should be released some time soon. Whenever we see some high tech alien race or some high tech sci fi show, they always use crystals for their storage. Why is this? Well, magnetic media really isn't all that great and in fact, in this day and age, we're already reaching the limits of magnetic media. Look at CPUs... Now, instead of increasing the power of single CPUs, companies are releasing more and more CPUs. At this rate, the average laptop would have 64 CPUs : O. Well, with Crystal Technology coupled with lasers and what not (I'm just talking about storage now, my little thing on CPUs really has nothing to do with this), you can create holographic storage units. In this way, a crystal can store a heck of a lot more than a magnetic piece of metal or w/e in the same amount of space. However, this technology is far from being completed and I wouldn't imagine it would come out any time soon.

Still, I believe a model like the one I described above would help accelerate the advancements of these two technologies and help the world go into an age of total virtual reality. According to current PhDs, we are looking at advanced nano technology entering the market in the next 42 years (machines the size of blood cells keeping us healthy and introducing images to the brain and what not, meaning we'd be pretty much cyberized and could go online into a game or into communications with another individual or w/e).

However, as I said before, I'm more interested in virtual reality total immersion games than health and what not : ). I believe we're already at the point where companies can release affordable computer systems following the model I described above and I believe that model would be the first step in the right direction.

 

[Hakeem]

I've come to imagine virtual reality as much much more than simple glasses, gloves, and wii-motes.

No, I want to interact directly with the brain. The more I read, the brain is more than capable of this.

They did this experiment with paralyzed people. They put tiny chips with 100 pins in their motor cortexes (the part of the brain that controls movement). The pins pick up the signals in the brain and send it to a computer. The computer was programmed to move a mouse. Neither the software nor the hardware was calibrated to the patients brains. They learned to use the mouse.

It seems our brains are incredibly adaptive. Personally, I don't want to insert a bunch of technology into my body unless I have designed it personally, and even then... Ideally a method for detecting individual neurons without intrusive technology is my goal. Along with that, I'd also like technology that can trigger neurons. (Again, non-intrusively.) This way, images might be able to be input directly to the part of your brain that processes the input from your eyes. I'm not sure how feasible it is to make someone relearn to see, so maybe it would still require monitor glasses, or, more recently, contacts. Mostly the point of triggering neurons is to input to the other senses. Yes, even touch. (Can you say "silent headphones"?

Of course, if you're reading and writing data directly to the brain, wont your natural sensory data interfere? This is the reason the experiment was only performed on people who couldn't move. I can foresee two possible workarounds to this. You see, there is a mechanism at the top of the spinal cord that kicks in when you go to sleep. This mechanism conveniently paralyzes you so that you do not act out your dreams (or in our case: virtual worlds). Either find a way to trigger this mechanism, or we can only go full-virtual while asleep (which is technically one way to trigger the paralysis). I expect the latter to be more popular, since being forcibly paralyzed has its disadvantages (namely: paralysis).

So practice your lucid dreaming!

 

[Nestharus]

Well, one thing that needs to be kept in mind is networking.

With some of my ideas above, I'm only thinking of initial steps and affordable models. I believe something like what you said and beyond will eventually happen, but we're not at that point : ).

Really, how I see it, eventually people are going to move to a virtual network where they are exactly who and what they want to be and where they can live in the exact world they want to live in with the people they want to live with. Another resultant of this would be immortality since we'd really be ditching our own bodies. Physical *suits* would be in the regular world for people to leave the virtual world so they can work on the networking and work on expansion. This is just where I kind of see humanity going to. =)

 

[Hakeem]

Without networking, we might as well be dreaming.

I don't know about immortality though. It's one thing to interface with an organic brain, quite another to keep it alive in a jar, another yet to keep it alive forever, and possibly impossible to make an inorganic brain that matches or surpasses our own.

 

[Nestharus]

Who said we'd even be using a brain. Really, it's pretty imperfect and can be improved a lot, and most probably there will be better storage systems and processing systems out than the human mind. I mean really, I'm not talking about any organic matter here ; ).

 

[TheDivineBoss]

Stop with the illusive wifi stuff, and go get a holodeck.

 

[Angry_Bovine]

I believe the only way to get any "realistic virtual-reality" is to have an interface to the brain. I doubt any illusion to your eyes would be as effective or as immersive. I do, however, also think that virtual reality won't be attainable any time soon. Not one that plays exactly like reality. A virtual reality would be a way to trick the brain after all, right?

 

[AirHead]

For example, a current model for a computer I'm looking into (not currently designed, just an idea) would be something similar to a laptop, except that it would not have a keyboard, a monitor, a touch pad, or really any input devices. It would have USB ports for external devices and wi-fi along with a pair of wi-fi data gloves and a wi-fi headset.

From here, you could use the gloves to type on a virtual keyboard, move windows with your hands, and well, : P. ...

Completely unnecessary. There is technology that will become about as affordable as the PS3 by the time the next gen consoles are released that literally reads your brain and looks at what you are telling your body to do before you do it, and even better, it's just a hat. it can then use this data to control your video game character.

In this way, actual AI can be achieved, new limits of processing power can be reached, and well, =). ...

AI is already possible. there is a company that made a self teaching computer that uses trial and error to decide what to do next, pretty soon it will have the intelligence of a human 3 year old and it's rate of learning is increasing fairly quickly.

There's also another technology that's being worked on and should be released some time soon. Whenever we see some high tech alien race or some high tech sci fi show, they always use crystals for their storage. Why is this? Well, magnetic media really isn't all that great and in fact, in this day and age, we're already reaching the limits of magnetic media. Look at CPUs... Now, instead of increasing the power of single CPUs, companies are releasing more and more CPUs. At this rate, the average laptop would have 64 CPUs : O. Well, with Crystal Technology coupled with lasers and what not (I'm just talking about storage now, my little thing on CPUs really has nothing to do with this), you can create holographic storage units. In this way, a crystal can store a heck of a lot more than a magnetic piece of metal or w/e in the same amount of space. However, this technology is far from being completed and I wouldn't imagine it would come out any time soon.

And yet again this is already happening. A crystal CD if you will is being developed that is like a crystal cube that the computer simply shoots lazers (which aren't as expensive as one would think) into the cube to put tiny particles of empty space that can be read with non burning lazers.

The future is closer than you think. Gah I watch too much science channel.

EDIT:

Who said we'd even be using a brain. Really, it's pretty imperfect and can be improved a lot, and most probably there will be better storage systems and processing systems out than the human mind. I mean really, I'm not talking about any organic matter here ; ).

Are you kidding? The human brain is at least 100 times better than our most powerful supercomputer (PS3 xD) and enough memory space to hold an exact model of entire world down to the last grain of sand on some unknown beach. I think a single person would be easily within it's grasp. Just know that the human brain can run Crysis on max grafics more than 10 times at the same time and that's epic.

 

[Direfury]

Ten times? That's it? We can calculate everything in the universe that is within our line of sight without even knowing it.

 

[Hakeem]

RL is beyond hi-res.

 

[AirHead]

Ten times? That's it? We can calculate everything in the universe that is within our line of sight without even knowing it.

Please read it again, I believe it says more than ten times, so I could mean 100000 times but I just didn't want to think of a real number, something abstract was easier.

 

[Nestharus]

Well, a lot of this stuff sounds pretty interesting, but there has not been an AI that could pass the AI test (the name escapes me), and so there aren't any confirmed AI computers as of yet. The one that came the closest used state programming (0s, 1s, and 2s), but it didn't actually pass the test.

Also, compared to what could be, the brain is imperfect. Relating it to current technology (which is a joke compared to what's possible) is pretty silly. Relating it to what could be done shows how small and insignificant it really is and how much it can be improved. A few people have already augmented some things about their brain with inmplanted CPUs and what not ;o. Really some interesting stuff.

Now, from what I've read of doctors talking about Virtual Reality and so on, they estimate that it'll be in 42 years, which means 10-20 years considering how much they typically exagerrate. What could we be doing until then to create as immersive a game as possible.

Well, we could use accellorometers, and they would actually be affordable depending on how much detail you were looking at. Current things using it are *way* overpriced... I was looking at the latest data glove and it was $15,000.00 per glove. I kid you not.

It cost them about $500.00, including labor, to make each glove. They are making a $14,500.00 profit per glove.

Now, using the latest in digital output accellorometer technology, a complete full mapping of the body (able to record each motion) would use 46accellorometers. Each one costs about $15.00. Now, this is full mapping from leg motion to foot motion to middle area motion (not very detailed) to stomach motion, chest motion, head motion, shoulder motion, arm motion, and hand motion (each part of each finger along with the base of the palm).

Now, this is what I'm looking into right now for input devices for games and what not because this is what can be done right now : ). I'm sure this technology will be obsolete in 10-20 years time, but that's still a while.

Mapping the body-
This setup wouldn't be a real suit but would be things you could just strap on over your clothes and shoes and long gloves (sleeves to) that go up to the shoulder.

So, breaking it down it would include-
2 Straps to go around the feet (could be a shoe, socks, or w/e)
2 straps to go around the bottom portion of a leg
2 straps to go around the upper portion of the leg
1 strap that goes around the waist line
1 strap that goes around the stomach/chest
1 strap that goes around the forehead
2 gloves with long sleeves that go up to the shoulder

And really, from here you could be as detailed as you wanted, so you might just use the gloves (lower costing), or go for full motion capture. Now, I agree with you all, reading chemical reactions in the brain and what not would be a lot cooler, a lot cheaper, and a lot better, but until then, this is the best thing that can be done = ). Also, just imagine righting firmware for something like that ;o. That'd be pretty wild.

And yes, I know about the crystal storage thing. I was the one who brought that up and I know that it'll be out fairly soon ^_^.

Now, what my thoughts were on changing computers around (for the next 10 or 20 years, which'd be long enough) would be using 2 gloves with the sleeves and glasses that could go over your regular glasses if you had them. This stuff is actually possible right now. All you'd need is one infrared thing for defining an origin and bluetooth ^_^. You could also include a recharging station directly into whatever you'd be using as your computer (which'd just be a regular computer without any input devices like the keyboard, the mouse, or any output devices like the monitor or the speakers).

Now, let's look at current prices for let's say tablet PCs. You can be a really nice brand new one for let's see... $1990.00.
Ouch...

Let's look at this model and say we include a single accellorometer in the glasses to detect head movement instead of a head band.

around $615.00 for the accellorometers
let's say $300.00 for labor
$600.00 for internal devices
$150 .00 for external

So, that'd be $1665.00 for a very nice system that has motion capturing technology and the same processing speed as a good laptopt or w/e (good motherboard, good RAM, good memory, bluetooth, etc). I'm talking as good as an epic laptop (look at internal price ).

This means instead of buying a Tablet PC because they are really cool and small and portable, you could buy something that's even smaller and more portable with more functionality and power and cool motion capturing technology for $235.00 less (this is compared to like the best tablet PC money can buy). We could lower the costs of internal devices to be mediocre or to be crappy and have different grades, and considering that we'd have a mass production of accellorometers, that figure of $615.00 would go down to around $250.00, so, after about a year this price would look more like this (accounting for price ups for better technologies).

around $250.00 for the accellorometers
let's say $150.00 for labor (would have more mass production at this point)
$400.00 to $900.00 for internal devices (now this would be as good as an epic PC or as good as an avg laptop)
$150 .00 for external (don't really see this going up for upgrades because bluetooth stuff is cheap, material is cheap, wiring is pretty cheap).

So here's the new price range

$950.00 to $1450.00.

Affordable at the start, affordable at the end.


Ok, now let's look at the hat virtual reality stuff.

For this, you'd still need an external device for storage, a processing unit, and a graphics card. I know for a fact that people wouldn't want their brains to be used as processing units, graphics cards, and I def know people won't want crap stored in their heads unless it's for a class or it's for knowledge or something like that. So could this be the newest and best way to learn material? Just a thought.

So, we'd have to have an external storage area, an external processing area, and so on. This hat would only act as a device to read what thoughts you're having and what you want to do. There would be very little demand for it if it actually used you as the processing unit, used you as the graphics card, and used you to store all of the information that you might not even want to store. I know I'd probably never go for it. So over-all, you're looking at the costs for a regular computer system without any input devices. You'd just be using the hat as input and nothing more : ), and as well, output too (you'd see it in your head and could close your eyes or w/e and do it like that : D, and feel the stuff and whatever).

Atleast that's how I see it moving forward.

So, maybe let's start up a new discussion under virtual reality for the hats.

If it stored all of this stuff in your head, used your head as the processing unit (meaning you couldn't use your all when doing something because some of you would be used for processing that thing), used you as the graphics card (more power) and what not, would you ever use it? Imagine getting tired after a few hours of playing, or getting massive migranes as a result of it using you.

Would you rather have external devices to do this? What would you want (talk about technologies that are being worked on and aren't released yet).

What kind of modes would you like to use this for (use it as a GPS so that you see in your head where you want to go and you see with your eyes where you are, use it as something to play while you're fully aware of your surroundings, so yuo'd be sitting in a chair at an airport or w/e with your eyes closed fully immersed in that world and could stop whenever you want, use it in your sleep to control dreams or to play online games in your sleep).

 

[AirHead]

Wait I don't think you get is that I meant the whole system was around the price of a PS3 (at launch price) give or take $150, also I never said it would use your mind to actually processing just that it is very powerful, and also I never said the brain couldn't be improved it's just the best we will have (without just augmenting the brain) for a very, very long time more than 100 years (and I say that because I don't want to estimate a real number) also I saw the heat thing on the news as well as science channel, they had a FPS wired to it; it didn't let the player have full control of the character but simply things like moving the pointer finger in a certain way walks forward and things of the such. I will try to find a video on YouTube.

EDIT: I think this is it but I don't have sound but I will check later when I do have sound

 

[Nestharus]

looks neat : )

 

[AirHead]

Okay, so I watched it with sound and that's the right things but I forgot the reason I said it costs similar to a PS3 was because I was thinking of it and a console together.

 

[Nestharus]

Really what I'm interested is neurosky's technology. Apparently they can track things like emotions, drowsiness, eye movements, and so on. They have various headsets ready to go, but they only offer them to serious projects at the moment. It looks like in the next 5 years, this could be technology that defines how games work from now (off of PCs of course). We'd still have consoles, PCs and so on, this would just be the new interface for them. It looks quite incredible.

Maybe doing research into other things would be silly. I think I'll stick with what I'm doing, but I'll only go through the basics and wait for this incredible neuro technology to be released for the common user (consider that a major game company is backing this technology up and funding its research).

The latest was released in 2008, October 9th and 10th, so this is really new. Actually, this could be released in the next 2 years, and neurosky is going to probably be a major player in the world since this technology can be used in so many ways.

I personally can't wait for its release.

So, what do you guys think about this?

 

[AirHead]

Looks like the next battle in the console war to me, NeuroSky or Emiotv? I can see Nintendo using Emotiv because it seems to be cheaper and people could get it without saving allot and it is easier to use if you move so they would use it for that reason as well I think and Sony would use NeuroSky because it doesn't even help to move it just uses thought. and of course Microsoft would have a wiimote, and it would cost almost $100 because they are cheap.

EDIT: Also try going to the Emotiv website it has allot of stuff about it not found in the video I posted here, and also check out the videos they have allot of stuff about reading emotion and from what they are saying I get that if you know where your arm is it can pick that up and it will know where your arm is, check it out. So all in all I think Emotiv is cheaper but less powerful and NeuroSky is more powerful and not as cheap, I believe the future is in NeuroSky but Emotiv is what we have for now, and each are infinitely better than a mouse and keyboard.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

I'm sorry, did someone here mention connecting a virtual reality machine to your brain?

Have you not seen the movies?

 

[Nestharus]

Thing is neurosky already has a series of things that are ready to use for developers. Is emotiv already completely released for a regular person to just buy? Or is it not going to be released maybe for a year of 2. If that's the case, neurosky will be released around the same time I think : ).

Also, considering if it's going to even be released in the next couple of months, it's not going to be out very long because neurosky's release data is so soon. I believe neurosky will probably be around $75.00-$100.00 at the most because all it literally is, is a headset. It's not meant to replace any console, it's just a new interface device for interfacing with keyboards and consoles. Square Enix is also working with them (Sony, haha).

So, how much is emotiv?

 

[AirHead]

It said it's $300 but it comes out with games by this Christmas so I think that will be available for a while, and by the way both are just a headset they even work the same (picking up the abnormalities in energies that come from your brain caused by different thoughts and translating them into input) but I think NeuroSky is going to be what we are using for our consoles in a few years, not Emotiv, especially if you are right about the $75-$100 cost. In the end they are both the exact same product but Square Enix is doing it better I believe. And as a side note I meant that one of these things would be like a controller for consoles, not the console itself.

I still think Microsoft will use Wiimotes in next gen consoles.

 

[Nestharus]

Microsoft using wiimotes when all of this mind reading stuff comes out..

ROFL

Poor microsoft ; (

 

[darvarda93]

They got computer blackboards that use pens to draw straight onto the computer thats connected to it, we got one in our class.

Which means Microsoft could pull one of those off with Wiimotes, so u can draw on it from afar! I can imagine the virtual reality with wiimote lightsabers >