• 🏆 Texturing Contest #33 is OPEN! Contestants must re-texture a SD unit model found in-game (Warcraft 3 Classic), recreating the unit into a peaceful NPC version. 🔗Click here to enter!
  • It's time for the first HD Modeling Contest of 2024. Join the theme discussion for Hive's HD Modeling Contest #6! Click here to post your idea!

[Altered Melee] Unusual/Creative Siege units/structures/upgrades/items/etc?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Level 5
Joined
Oct 9, 2017
Messages
124
As the title says, what are ideas you, the general population of the HIVE forum, have for siege options, whether units, upgrades, items or Heroic variations thereof. I make this thread on account of having stumbled into such an idea over on the Passive Ultimates idea thread, where an ultimate is used to turn a mostly conventional ranged Hero into an offensive siege unit by adding an appropriate attack and swapping the abilities to more siege-based variations.

And yes, ripping off stuff from non-WC3 games is perfectly fine. As a result, I expect the first dozen to be nothing but slightly-altered copies of stuff from Starcraft.
 
Level 28
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
3,107
Siegespell: Deals lower damage in exchange for an effect with every attack:
* Minion launcher: Creates a weak unit on the target.
* Napalm: Building takes damage over time.
* Termites: Target building or mechanical unit has negative HP regen.
* Fog: reduces building's range with every attack.
* Seed: Spawns giant roots around the building, slowing production and dealing damage.
* Subterranean Tentacle: Every attack spawns a timed-life tentacle next to the building that attacks units and buildings. Cannot attack again while the tentacle is still alive.
* Impaling Spines: Every attack causes an Impale spell between the attacker and the target.
* Meteor: Every attack causes a meteor to fall on the building, dealing damage and stun in an AoE.
* Saboteurs: Target building becomes neutral once it loses half its total HP, whoever restores it to full becomes the new owner.

Slow burner: Low damage, fast/continuous attack.
* Upgrade: Damage increases by +1 every few seconds.

Assimilator: takes chunks out of building HP and converts it into resources for the attacker.

Landshark: Mobile burrowed unit with tornado's damage aura.
 
Level 5
Joined
Oct 9, 2017
Messages
124
Siegespell: Deals lower damage in exchange for an effect with every attack:
This is... Too generalist for comfort, as it's not clear how it works out. Is it a random one of the effects each attack, or a research to alter every unit case by case, possibly one that's mutually exclusive with removing existing on-hit effects for improved damage? At any rate, my comments on each thing:

* Minion launcher: Creates a weak unit on the target.
SC2 Brood Lord, works well as a distraction method to redirect attacks from under-microed units and causes issues for melee units getting bodyblocked by the newly spawned ones.

* Napalm: Building takes damage over time.
* Termites: Target building or mechanical unit has negative HP regen.
These actually do the same thing, as negative regen is mechanically identical to damage over time, but Termites is more useful against units that have HP regeneration to start with, provided it's a set-to value, as it cuts off a source of health regeneration, increasing net damage.

* Fog: reduces building's range with every attack.
This is weird, as it eventually causes a disable, but does it based on what can attack. If it bottoms out at melee, then the unit applying it may always be vulnerable by being close enough to be hit. Meta-wise, it means that shorter range units can work as

* Seed: Spawns giant roots around the building, slowing production and dealing damage.
Slowing down production is the weird part here, as stopping it is something that exists and is understood in metagame results (long story short, Frost Wyrm OP). The code behind slowing down production is probably complicated as hell, and this basically acts as a means of messing with the enemy's overall capacity.

* Subterranean Tentacle: Every attack spawns a timed-life tentacle next to the building that attacks units and buildings. Cannot attack again while the tentacle is still alive.
Much like Minion Launcher, it distracts attacks from the attacking force, necessitating micromanagement and potentially blocking units. Unlike Minion Launcher, this is externalizing attack abilities, so the tentacle needs to be cost-effective in damage in its own right or be really effective at screwing with defenders.

* Impaling Spines: Every attack causes an Impale spell between the attacker and the target.
This is the Lurker from Starcraft, but with added stun on those hit. Very, very strong, as you've got a fairly easily controllable AoE that's difficult to precisely predict for the opponent.

* Meteor: Every attack causes a meteor to fall on the building, dealing damage and stun in an AoE.
This is a typical AoE on hit, but attaches a certain stun. Cleave+100% chance Bash in effect. This is hugely problematic, but the structure restriction makes it more manageable by having a valid response in the form of keeping units distant from structures.

* Saboteurs: Target building becomes neutral once it loses half its total HP, whoever restores it to full becomes the new owner.
This is pretty close to the way that capturing units in Supreme Commander works (and is quite similar to the Queen from Starcraft Brood War infesting Command Centers). The result of this is that you end up being able to kill a base about twice as fast (if it's a passive effect on a unit), with a significant amount of available spending to claim the base as your own for less cost than building a new one, as well as acquiring the enemy's techtree at a significantly prebuilt level. In combination with some kind of combat engineer or high speed building repair, you can end up screwing over the enemy far too quickly for comfort. This is actually massively too powerful, as it effectively halves a building's health and opens up the option to take it yourself, should you be victorious.

Slow burner: Low damage, fast/continuous attack.
* Upgrade: Damage increases by +1 every few seconds.
This is Void Ray from SC2. And WC3 health numbers are generally too large for the +1 damage to do much, IIRC this would at best improve damage by 16 per second. Significant, yes, but not enough for a serious research option.

Assimilator: takes chunks out of building HP and converts it into resources for the attacker.
So a dedicated Pillage unit? Slow, strong attacks which are below cost anyways, but make up cost with resource stealing? Seems nice, but it can cause problems with regenerating buildings, undercost repairs and other stuff that ends up making the resources around go up over time.


As you've proposed nothing but offensive siege stuff, I'll go with defensive siege things:

Live-in Repairman: Upon completing this research, your workers can station in your structures, gathering resources and repairing them for 10 HP per second.
Last-Leg Construction: This building costs 33% less to repair than to build and, when destroyed, leaves a wreckage that can be rebuilt at a 25% discount
 
Level 28
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
3,107
Effects: only one effect per unit.

The idea for Napalm / Termites is that termites do less damage than napalm (contrast healing spells vs health regen), but force a worker to be nearby to repair it constantly. Sort of like Disease Cloud for buildings.

As for the Void Ray one, it'd be cumulative (so +1 after X seconds, +2 after 2X, +3 after 3X, etc.)

Assimilator might work better as a channeled spell.

-

Barrel Bomb: Places an explosive barrel with Kaboom on the target building. If killed, has a weaker Kaboom than if allowed to detonate.

Shore Up: Target building heals up to half its maximum HP and gets +5 armor (loses armor if it reaches full health).

Nasty Surprise: Targeted building Kabooms on death.

Battering Ram: Gives Demolish and Hardened Skin to the targeted melee unit.

Garrison (multi-level upgrade): Spawns timed zero-food units whenever a building dies (type and number of units improve with every level of upgrade).

Telescope: Target building has increased (1100+) range.
 
Last edited:
Level 5
Joined
Oct 9, 2017
Messages
124
Hmm... Garrison has to be autocast and passive units, otherwise it gets annoyingly complicated to use and balance due to the need for player input whenever a building is destroyed. Furthermore, garrisons make more sense attached to something that alters a structure's baseline abilities, possibly associated with upgrading attacks on structures to represent the garrison while it's there. Timed life causes some issues with the logic, here, but needing to set aside food for structures that can't send the units out is a problem. It'd probably work best, thematically, as production structures getting transport slots for units they produce, then having attacks and abilities enabled by garrisoning the appropriate unit.

Telescope requires an admittedly simple trigger (no, really, we actually have triggers to add abilities directly to units, it's awesome), but it's oddly both offensive and defensive. If the range increase is long enough, it can turn a foothold position built near an enemy base into an artillery center shelling their base itself, making this an ability that's both offensive and defensive in sieges, especially if you have Ancient-like structure-units to use in this capacity.

Barrel Bomb and Nasty Surprise need rather large increases in area of effect to get past the size of the structure. Barrel Bomb can be a weakness, as being detonated prematurely causes damage to the structure, while Nasty Surprise is all upside, provided it's used where the AoE won't go off on allies.

---

The stuff unit-structures cause gets rather fun, as it can lead to a kind of hyperelite situation where the buildings go around and act as t3 units. Furthermore, some of my sillier ideas come into play with mobile structures:

Armored Work-wagon:
T2 land unit production structure (Workshop/Slaughterhouse analogue, though Ancient of Lore works better), having the role of the Workshop or Slaughterhouse for the faction it goes with. Has both a long-ranged automatic (Pheonix Fire based) attack, as well as being able to produce a free, zero cost, suicide unit with timed life. Other unusual siege-relevant production options include a mechanical repair Aura that affects the faction's defensive structures (including other production-turrets) and a very much combat-oriented worker, with the ability to build stuff the normal workers can't and a considerably faster repair (basically gating t3.5 (Frost Wyrm kind of stuff) behind a specialized worker that also makes forward defenses otherwise unavailable to provide a "backstop" during sieges)

Stim Flask:
A variant of Acid Bomb, this takes the unused attack and movement speed modifiers and sets them to a positive value to increase movement and attack speed. Damage is retained, armor reduction is removed. The result is an AoE Unholy Frenzy that can be darn useful in a harsh situation. With another use being just as a speed boost to go from place to place. I mean, the damage can be dropped to use it as an AoE buff ability... but there's other ways to handle that. Though not any quite as elegant...
 
Level 28
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
3,107
Obsidian Citadel: Upgrade to the Black Citadel:
* Hover: Can move (slowly) and creates blight wherever it goes. Has a more powerful attack and can attack while moving. Can produce units, but cannot move while doing so.
* Flight: Lifts higher off the ground, moving slightly faster and becoming immune to ground units. No longer creates blight or creates units, but has a powerful short-range siege attack (dropping corpses from high above) in addition to the attack-while-moving ghosts. If killed while flying, creates a large circle of Blight on death.
* Can cast Raise Dead and can load units inside it. Possible idea: having stats depend on the number of units loaded (HP regen increases with Acolytes, mana regen with Obsidian Statues, damage with combat units, Raise Dead manacost/cooldown lowers with casters, etc.).
 
Last edited:
Level 28
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
3,107
Heart of the Forest: Upgrade to Tree of Eternity.
* Swarm: Has a passive multitarget attack using those bird-shaped magic projectiles.
* Uproot: Becomes mobile in exchange for slightly lower armor and HP regen. High ranged splash damage (Ancient Protector on steroids)
* Root: Becomes immobile in exchange for higher armor and HP regen. Keeps the same attack as when uprooted.
* Force of Nature / Return to the Earth: FoN turns trees in the AoE into treants, RttE turns treants in the AoE into trees. Also passively spawns a tree at a random location every minute while rooted.
* Stats increase if working an entangled goldmine for every wisp in the mine.

Goblin Reclaimer: Shredder upgrade with siege damage and Pillage.

Scourge Landkiller: Mobile lumber storage that continuously spreads Blight when unpacked (in a far greater radius than the normal ability, but spreads over time).

Organ Gun: Fires multiple rockets per volley with poor accuracy but high AoE.
 
Level 13
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
769
Organ gun, yas.
Why not a Gatling Gun?
  • 0.25 attack speed, piercing damage, high dice range for the random factor, piercing shots with 50% damage loss to 1 to 2 targets (missile - line), slow moving, 100 - 200 minimum range requirement.
Mine Launcher:
  • Deploy land mines in a target area.
A Freakin' Dragon:
  • Has the liquid fire, burning oil, devour AND regurgitate (unload unit) abilities. Slow, magic damage, artillery attack split with a single target missile attack for air. Targeted by both ground and air units for balance.
 

ISL

ISL

Level 13
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
238
* Minion launcher: Creates a weak unit on the target.
SC2 Brood Lord, works well as a distraction method to redirect attacks from under-microed units and causes issues for melee units getting bodyblocked by the newly spawned ones.
It works and it's not that bad, actually. You don't have to spawn the units on the target tho. That's gotta have some consequences.
full
The unit is effective against buildings and melee land units, however, is countered by other ranged and siege units, and gets simply humiliated by flying enemies. (worsened by the unit's low movement speed)
And that's completely okay. Everything must have its own counter.

I also see everything that deals sustained damage in an area greatly effective against immobile targets (Buildings).
For example, everything that can breath freakin flames: Gif-1, Gif-2.

Organ Gun: Fires multiple rockets per volley with poor accuracy but high AoE.
I think I have it somewhere...


EDIT:
As for the ideas:
1. Flying units that can damage buildings are always nasty. Especially if you don't have enough defenses around your base.
2. Having your buildings 'cursed' without you even knowing it is also bad. I remember in @Nightmare2077's map Skaven units could spread deceases upon enemy buildings. I found it genius back then, and I still think it's pretty interesting.
3. Anything that can sabotage the enemy base defense. Not exactly to kill it, but to make it less effective so you could have a window of time to run around and, perhaps, kill some workers or something.
4. This one is not for sieging but for defending. Such concept is seen in a couple of games already (C&C for example). It's a defensive building that makes all other structures/units invisible.
5. As for abilities or spells, there's a lot that can be imagined here. But you should never have an ability that could destroy something in one shot or one cast. Especially if that can kill a main base.
 
Last edited:

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,502
It works and it's not that bad, actually. You don't have to spawn the units on the target tho. That's gotta have some consequences.
full
The unit is effective against buildings and melee land units, however, is countered by other ranged and siege units, and gets simply humiliated by flying enemies. (worsened by the unit's low movement speed)
And that's completely okay. Everything must have its own counter.

I also see everything that deals sustained damage in an area greatly effective against immobile targets (Buildings).
For example, everything that can breath fire: Gif 1, Gif 2.


I think I have it somewhere...


EDIT:
As for the ideas:
1. Flying units that can damage buildings are always nasty. Especially if you don't have enough defenses around your base.
2. Having your buildings 'cursed' without you even knowing it is also bad. I remember in @Nightmare2077's map Skaven units could spread deceases upon enemy buildings. I found it genius back then, and still think it's pretty interesing.
3. Anything that can sabotage the enemy base defense. Not exactly to kill it, but to make it less effective so you could have a window of time to run around and, perhaps, kill some workers or something.
4. This one is not for sieging but for defending. Such concept is seen in a couple of games already (C&C for example). It's a defensive building that makes all other structures/units invisible.
5. As for abilities or spells, there's a lot that can be imagined here. But you should never have an ability that could destroy something in one shot or one cast. Especially if that can kill a main base.
I love that. How did you put that together (Object Editor stuff, or some Triggering, or entirely Coded)?

Same for the Dragon/Hydra Breath (though I'm nearly certain those are Coded)?
 

ISL

ISL

Level 13
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
238
I love that. How did you put that together (Object Editor stuff, or some Triggering, or entirely Coded)?

Same for the Dragon/Hydra Breath (though I'm nearly certain those are Coded)?
Completely and entirely GUI.

Except for the Damage Engine, but it only allows me to get the damage instance.
 
Last edited:
Level 13
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
769
everything that can breath freakin flames: Gif-1, Gif-2.
I like that. That would definitely be a thing I want on me dragons.

For sabotage, I got a similar idea that works:
I started with a dummy ability, "channel," as a single unit target for buildings. When you use it on a building, it spawns in a dummy unit with a 1 second timer and 2 second attack speed with both freezing breath/liquid flames base abilities. It attacks once, applying those debuffs.
The whole thing looks like the unit throws a molotov at the building, which then is on fire and unusable/unrepairable while burning for 20 seconds.
 
Last edited:
Level 28
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
3,107
Specialist Ammo: Switches the unit's (some kind of cannon) attack:
** Grapeshot: Halves the unit's range, can only target units, increases damage and splash, gives Hero damage.
** Timed Bomb: Reduces damage to 1, creates an explosive barrel with a short fuse at the point of impact with every attack. Has a trigger where all units in the barrel's AoE will sometimes run away until it explodes.
** Smoke Grenades: Reduces damage and creates a Cloud effect at the point of impact.
** Tear Gas: Reduces damage, all units in the AoE have reduced accuracy.
** Kinetic Impact Rods: Switches to Line damage and gives Demolish.
** Incendiary Grenades: Reduces damage to 1, casts Flame Strike at the point of impact.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top