The Glaive Naga Edition

[Moderator]

02:37, 4th Feb 2009
MasterHaosis: Well I like Nagas after Fel orcs the most. I made also Naga map which you should download and try to use some ideas. because I do not like your few things. First you used that stupid Murgul house model for Murgul camp. Sound is as Human barrack!
Secondly you use orc catapult for Naga. Bad idea! Next, corab reef and coral bed uses same model, which is not so bad, but they have same icons! Also sound of coral reef is same as Lumber Mill. Naga has water sounds for buildings! Also royal academy used that Observatory model! Stupid! Hey man in my map I am using Naga skin for that observatory try use it! And give credit to author (you will find).
Also I have icon for that sea dragon!
Anyway man map is enough to get approved! But I am not so pleasant because I know you can do that better!
2/5 rating!
When you update map, send me PM and I will test it if its better expect rep and higher rating!

 

[YeeShadow]

Hi, well I played it and is cool, I love the nagas xD but there are some things that I don't like, the turtles are missing and instead you put some catapults or something that's not a good idea, or at least that's what I think.

The heroes need their own spells, try to create original spells, or download some.

You can win with just 5 Royal Guards and a hero, those are incredible strong, that's why in the game you cannot train them, try changing the attack, and also add upgrades for them so they cannot use all the spells immediately, you can have a huge army from nowhere with the Summon Sea Elemental, the nagas have an increidble advantage here, try to make it a little more balance.

 

[idodik]

Sounds good this does, correct the map I suggest. To play this map cleanly, I would like.

 

[CyberDuelX16]

Its a decent enough map, but the hunter and reaver build times are seriously ridiculas, it gives them an uberly unfair advantage, i had 20 units in 4-5 minutes T_T, Obvervatory model and icon for naga T_T, and to make Naga Main building a town hall you can just add the buff or something to it in Object Editor 2/5 , you can do much better P:

 

[Lightstalker]

The bugs need to be fixed. Add the Naga Heroes & Naga Town Halls to the gameplay constants to fix those bugs. It's pretty simple, really.

 

[Goron2222]

already did that Lightstalker

 

[Lightstalker]

already did that Lightstalker

In the object editor, have you checked "Stats - Unit Classification" to 'Town Hall"?

 

[MasterHaosis]

I like that Map!

 

[SanKakU]

i think you need to make in the object editor, the units that are buildings that are the temple of tides, seas and whatever the tier 3 one is to be classified as town hall. that will fix your problem. the gameplay constants thing as mentioned has to do with heroes i think. so compare town hall, fortress, tree of life and necropolis and black citadel and all those...they should have a section in their data saying they are town hall unit. those sections need to be there for the naga buildings too. i thought naga buildings were already like that though so maybe you turned it off...

edit: anyway yeah there are a lot of mistakes in this map, much more than what your reviewer mentioned. i recommend you play test the map repeatedly and pencil write the mistakes you need to fix as you discover them while testing...then you can have a list to work with to fix instead of testing every time to just fix the one or two things you remember need to be fixed.

P.S. you shouldn't have that setting in a custom game, you should never have it...but it's absolutely unacceptable in a melee map. you need to set the map options game data set to Melee (Latest Patch)

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/resource.php?t=81456

so check out that post of mine, the screen shot to know exactly what i'm talking about.

 

[Knightmawk]

if you want to fi that little bug you can just make the Temple of Tides a town hall by editing the map, go to advance, click gameplay constants, then find the list of town halls and such and just edit it and add it in. Make sure you have use custom gameplay constants on and then click ok or whatever it is

sweet map though

 

[Wazzz]

I have looked at this map extensively, and I have found sooo many things wrong with the Naga race.
First of all, I think the icon placement is terrible. I have to actually think about where things are as opposed to them being placed in the neat and tidy order that the melee races tend to follow.
The 2 coral buildings both have the same icon. This makes it INCREDIBLY confusing and infuriating, especially seeing as with the icon placement they are right next to each other.
There are only 3 heroes, if you want this race to be ANYTHING like a melee race, then I urge you to come up with a fourth hero. Every other race has one, so I don't see why the Naga shouldn't.
Now for the units themselves. The Naga don't need a catapult (or, as you say, a 'cataplut'), they have the Dragon Turtle FFS! That's what makes the Naga stand out, their organic, tanky artillery unit as opposed to the weaker ones that are able to be repaired.
One caster?!? WTH?!? You need at least 2 to even BEGIN to boast of a 'fully expanded techtree'. Do not even say you've got that until you know it's true.
Now, looking through, how many upgrades did I see for the Naga? Well, the lowest amount for a melee race I've seen (excluding the attack/armour upgrades) goes to the Orcs, who have a total of 15. How many did your supposedly complete Naga have? Four. Wow, 4 upgrades. I think the techtree is now 'fully expanded'. What really ticks me off is that 3 of those upgrades were already in the game, so how much did you actually do? You made 1 upgrade. WOW. You made a total of 3 units, one based off a model (as opposed to the model being based off a cool idea), the other just a copy of the already existing Catapult, which you couldn't even spell correctly despite it already being right in front of you.
When someone submits a map, I expect it to be complete. This is not finished. Making 1 upgrade does NOT expand a techtree. Copying units from other races does NOT expand a techtree. Hell, you even have a hero using the same model as one of your units. Oh, and that brings me to the point that 4th Regiment Leader is possibly the crappiest hero name I've ever heard of (mind you, it'd be pretty cool for a Warhammer 40k map with the Imperial Guard...). I would give you 1/5, but I think that's being too kind.
Oh, and for those out there who are saying 'nice map', if you are reffering to the map itself, it is a melee map already in existence. So, if you think it makes this a nice mod, you're saying the only thing he did was submit a map that we already had.

 

[Goron2222]

Thank you for your "critisism" even though harsh, it was helpful and i will take your points in mind in my next version.

 

[Wazzz]

Hm... this seems mildly improved, although you still have a long way to go with this race. First of all, although the idea of the Mur'gul Raider is good, I'm wondering why I can get 3 units on the first tier. It's interesting, sort of like the Night Elves, but when they all only take 2 food a piece, I have to stop and think about just how even this race is.

The heightened sense ability is an interesting addition, although it's still named Critical Strike ingame and does not require the upgrade you have allocated to it. To fix the latter, just go to the Check Dependencies option of the Critical Strike ability and tick True (I had exactly the same problem with my Naga race lol).

It's good to see you assigned a different model to the Naga Warchief, but why does he have the same ability as the Naga Royal Guards? Why do the Naga Royal Guards still have soo many abilities + Chaos damage? I mean, come on, this is a campaign race, it's going to start off unnaturally powerful (For example, look at the Mur'gul Reavers, they have the same attack damage as a Grunt with nice speed and only cost the same as a Ghoul).

Icon placement is STILL terrible, although it's good to see you allocated a different icon to the Coral Reef. Again, you need to get it into your head that this is a campaign race, there is not much room for keeping everything about it if you want it balanced against melee races (Take the Dragon Turtle for example. He STILL has no upgrades, yet he starts off with Devour, Resistant Skin and Spiked Shell. The Dragon Turtle STARTS OFF as the ultimate defensive siege engine. What I did [I don't like releasing information about my races, but I will make an exception here] was make it so all his abilities except for Devour required upgrades. I'm not saying do the same, but rather consider how YOU yourself can make it more even for fighting in melee games).

Ohh, and as for that upgrade you put in the Royal Training Grounds place thingy, well, that is possibly the biggest flaw ever: an upgrade that increases the health of every Naga unit. It COULD be possible with a high enough cost so long as you made it so that it only increased each unit's health by a small amount, but somehow I think that + 10000 is a little bit of an advantage, especially considering it only costs 200 gold and 200 lumber. I'm not saying make it more expensive to suit the 10000 health bonus, I'm saying get rid of it or make the number somewhat small (about 3 digits smaller, maybe).

And now for the bugs. Despite the old ones still being prominent, there's a new one on the loose: I CAN UPGRADE FOR FREE?!? Never before has going from tier to tier been easier! FIX IT. There are many things on the net that will show you how, but I'll be 'kind' and tell you myself.

First off, if you just did what I think you did, you need to increase the cost of the tier 2 building along with the tier 3. First of all, as a campaign race, the Temple of the Tides is naturally too expensive for melee gameplay. Reduce it. Then, looking at the Human Town Hall to the Keep to the Castle, observe the pattern at which the cost increases. Do this for the other races if you want to improve. Now, think of reasonable numbers (that's pretty much what games are all about, numbers) and use them. I will tell you if I think they're shit (as you know).

As for being able to get multiple heroes, there's a wonderful addition to world editor that will fix it. They're called triggers, and I know you know of them, as you did create a dialog box allowing for players to select their race ingame. All you have to do is limit the creation of each hero (yes, that's right, each hero individually) for all players. Also, limit for all players the number of heroes they can have for free.

Finally, the Town Hall revealy factor. I HATE IT. NEVER SUBMIT A MAP SO LONG AS IT HAS THAT. It's far too buggy to have in a map that has been submitted. It all comes down to the melee initialization. There's the trigger 'set victory/defeat conditions for all players'. Delete it. In time, you will learn how to make it possible for players to actually win, but until then, I would be soooo glad to see that revealing bug fixed.

One more thing, the Mur'gul Hero as well as the new caster both have the same icon. This I consider to be a bug. FIND AN ALTERNATIVE. There are many icons in the Warcraft 3 game itself, so there should be no need to look online for 1.

Oh, and more upgrades would be nice. If you want this to be playable in a melee game, you're going to have to create more, otherwise the Naga will be a very, VERY cheap race to go as, due to not needing any upgrades for half of their abilities.

Well, all in all, you have definitely improved the general quality of the map. It's still crap, but better crap. Keep at it. Oh, and as you say, the only thing that matters is the final product.

P.S. When making a campaign race become melee, I like to steer completely clear of imports. It makes for very good practice of using everything in the World Editor. And I mean EVERYTHING. There are icons, even some models, that you have to look for to actually see.

 

[Goron2222]

The health bonus was a mistake i did not mean to increases thier health that high, thank you for pointing it out.

 

[Wazzz]

np, I'm only here to help

 

[walker]

The naga hero's should be able to swim.

 

[Steelrose]

Hello! I'm new here, been working on some of my own maps and so I joined in order to ask some questions, get some help and get feedback.

I figured if I was expecting help, I should be contributing to the community as well.

I saw your map and needed to download it because it just seemed really cool, I wish they had added Naga at least to multi-player after they gave you brief taste of them in the game.

During my one playthrough I've compiled a list of bugs/comments.

TOOLTIP BUGS
This is the list of items I saw containing tooltip bugs (mainly the | accidentally separating letters when the hotkey display code gets broken).
~ Mur'gal Slave: Build Mur'gal Camp (Build M|ur'gal Camp)
~ Mur'gal Slave: Build Reef (Build R|eef)
~ Mur'gal Slave: Tooltip for building the Temple of the Sea still says that you upgrade armor and weapons there.
~ Mur'gal Camp: Train Mur'gal Hunter (Train Mur'gal H|unter)
~ Mur'gal Warlock (Swarlock)
~ Mur'gal hunter ability: Critical (Research tooltip says 15%, actually tooltip says 20%)
~ Mur'gal Camp: Both Research Berserk and Research Critical lack key commands.
~ Fallen Demon Hunter ability: Windwalk (Research Tooltip complete missing )

-- REEF --
~ Big Knives (big K|nives)
~ Upgrade to Giant Knives (upgrade to Giant K|nives)
~ Upgrade to Rune Knives (Upgrade to Rune K|nives)

-- SPAWNING GROUNDS --
~ No Shortcut Key for Spawning a Drake.

Unit Bugs/Suggestions
~ Most of the abilities for units are placed in strange or seemingly random locations in their interface, as opposed to neatly and normally formatted in non-custom heroes and units. (Naga Warchief, Mur'gal Dreameater, Mur'gal warlock to name a few. I can't remember right now if the Demon Hunter had this problem)
~ Expanding on the above problem - It's slight, but the Mur'gal slaves build list deviates from the norm,
~ You can build multiple of the same hero, i.e. I could have 3 Naga Warchiefs.
~ Naga Warchief: The Learning Buttons for Command Aura and Summon Elemental are missing shortcut commands. Command Aura is missing a [level 1] tag, it would also be nice to know the bonus of Command Aura in the tooltip.
~ Naga Warchief: Name Mul'Vark Avenger of the Ocean, the name is a little long and extends just abit past the unit display in the console. (Perhaps Avenger of the Deep or Avenger of the Sea)

Buildings
~ None of the Temple of the Sea upgrades cost anything.
~ you can resurrect heroes at the Academy.
~ Altar of the Deep: Hero Selection buttons are all out of alignment/unordered.

Opinions:
~ I would suggest (Though have no idea what i would change it too) changing the model for the Marketplace.
~ As creatures primarily of the sea, I can't help but feel Earthquake is an innapropriate ability for the Naga Warchief (this is of course simply my opinion)
~ Rally Point: is kind of unenthusiastically named - perhaps something like "Standard of Azshara" or maybe "Idol of Azshara"

Well, i may have left some things out, but for now thats about all I have to offer. I am not currently commenting on balance as it would require me to take some pretty heavy play testing before deciding that one.

I look forward to the following incarnations of this map

 

[Wazzz]

Yes! This is a much bigger improvement! However, although I am overjoyed at your obvious display of a will to learn, there is still much to discuss about improvement.

When you first submitted this map, you only created 1 upgrade. Now you have much more! Still not quite enough for the tech-tree to be dubbed 'fully expanded', but enough for it to be dubbed satisfactory. As for more upgrades, I can't help but notice that all your upgrades except 2 allow for the units to use extra abilities. If you are struggling to come up with more abilities for units (remember, you don't want too many, anyway, as that would cause possible unbalancing of the race itself), then why not have one to increase the attack damage of a unit or the attack speed or such? Oh, and as for the health bonus of all Naga units, although it doesn't effect the entire race, it's still op. Somehow, I think ppl might enjoy exploiting the 25% health increase of units such as the Dragon Turtle (an already beefy siege unit with 25% more health? ) and the Sea Drake. Speaking of the Sea Drake AND upgrades, I can't help but notice the Sea Drake does not benefit from any attack bonuses. Is this deliberate? If so, it's fine, but I just thought I'd let you know in case it wasn't.

ICON PLACEMENT HAS IMPROVED!!! All the buildings are now positioned BEAUTIFULLY (although the tower usually goes on the top right, it seems as though you looked at the humans only as they do that due to having 2 buildings which are often replaced by one in the other 3 races). If you do move the tower up there, don't forget to move the item building and the Royal Training Grounds over to the left by one space. As for units and upgrades, it looks as if you didn't even bother with them. The first unit you can get goes on the LEFT, not the RIGHT, and the second tier one usually goes on the RIGHT, not the LEFT. As for the Spawning Grounds, I really don't think it looks tidy having the Sea Drake and the Myrmidon on the left of the 2 units you can get earlier. Plz move them to the right.

Now, abilities. A certain lack of originality with the abilities. Yes, it is great to see you creating, but the Orcs already have the Berserk ability, and the Orcs also already have the pillage ability. If you still want those abilities in your race, at least give them different names, and if you want to take it to the next level, make them do different things. You could make the Berserk ability simply increase movement speed, ignoring attack speed and not causing the unit to take extra damage. This could also be handy for players as if they are hunting units down, they could use that ability to catch up to them, making the difference between being wounded and being killed.

BUGS. Oh yes, there's still a few bugs. FOR ONE, the upgrade Crushing Wave still requires the Fortress. NAUGHTY. Always check that, ALWAYS, before submitting. It is imperative that EVERYTHING can be done in a race. Well, here's a change, it seems as though that's the only bug. FORGOT TO SAY ICON PLACEMENT OF HEROES NEEDS IMPROVING. It is untidy, and even the best ideas will be crap if they aren't displayed in a tidy manner.

As for what the other guy said, I totally agree that the heroes should be able to swim through water, but NOT all. Illidan swimming...? Looks crap. He has no swimming animation, so he essentially walks on it. BAH.

Well, this is a great improvement, it really is. It's good to see someone take my criticism so well, that's why I do it. Those who listen benefit. Those who don't are not so well off. You chose to listen, which I think marks you out as a modder more than anything else. After all, if you can't accept criticism, how do you hope to improve? You've done well, and I thank you for listening, but we still have a long way to go before this race is perfect.

Well, you asked me to give you a rating, so here it is. 2.5/5, because although it's useful (especially as a land-mark of the benefits of listening to others), it's still somewhat lacking in other areas. Trust me, it's a LOT better than what I would have given you when you first submitted. Keep at it. This race is still unfinished, when it is, I feel that it will deserve a higher rating.

Good luck with your future projects, but before you start them, I would really like to see what you can do for other races, and try and make it so that they are playable against the melee, each other and the Naga. Extra Races maps are, for some reason, few and far between ATM (although I'm working on my own ATM ).

 

[Panda]

looks good.

 

[Ravernomus]

The idea is nice, very nice, i'll also use your map as a model to create my own.
But there are some details that must be fixed. 1st of all: you need to balance it more: Naga race are just IMBA (especially ammount of summoned units will pawn even undead with their skelotons), they are very tough, except their weakness is that they can't heal. 2nd: to upgrade the Wave for Royal Naga Guard... it requires Fortress - i think Naga dont have fortress ^^.
3rd: some minore unit imporvements and balances, would be nice.
All in all, the map is nice and is fun to play, dispite some 'unbalancements'.
Thanks for posting it.

 

[Wazzz]

Icon placement is still somewhat dodgy (check the units out, they should not be placed like that in the Mur'gul Garrison). The Mur'gul hero has a green icon up top left when the player pauses (odd, but should be seen to). Good to see you finally fixed the Crushing Wave upgrade requirement .

This is an improvement from what you started with, but I think that this idea is not fully developed. The fun-factor to me is lacking, which I think is due to the fact the unit abilities are used in other races and they are still limited. Also, your ideas aren't all the original. All in all, it feels like a struggle to get into the map and I am constantly thinking that I woudl rather be playing as one of the melee races rather than the extra one. Any good extra race should inspire people to try it out and figure out new tactics rather than re-use old ones... I don't like this, I really really don't... *sigh*

 

[Locked]

I love the nagas

I also love it xd
Map of cool, well out of the area in general so I can not say for now until I started playing

 

[Doomfan64]

It's a pretty nice level, I hope you make another. But the tech tree is missing one thing: There's no healer. Also there need's to be a tougher ranged unit other than the Sea Drake, which is tier 3.

 

[Wazzz]

bit of a necro post, and if i recall correctly, you should have found more faults than that.