The discussion about SD, SD+, HD graphics makes me feel sad.

[Vibe]

Back in 2018, an interview with BlizzCon mentioned that the reforged would offer World of Warcraft players who haven't played Warcraft III a chance to experience the classic story. If you notice, HD's model art style is chosen from the "Mist of Pandaria" style of "World of Warcraft". That's when I realized there was no better time for new players to join Warcraft III.

Yes, I mean, the HD graphics are more like designed for new players who haven't played Warcraft III but are familiar with World of Warcraft. The entire reforged position at the beginning is not to satisfy old players, but new players. Since HD graphics are not designed to respond to the expectations of the old gamers, the old gamers will oppose HD graphics anyway, because they can only accept SD or SD+. So the many disappointments and anger of old gamers about reforged is a meaningless farce, just as PC gamers hate Immortal and Arclight. (I think there will be many people here who will object to my statement.)

But in 2018 no player was thinking about these things, the community was just rave, they were just cheering, and none of the older players realized they couldn't live with HD, they might want SD+.

Then things got complicated when the HD graphics weren't good looking, so new players didn't buy it. But older players also attack reforged because they are afraid to learn new graphics, because they can only accept SD or SD+.

When quenching mods came along, things got more complicated. Some people still only choose SD. Some people choose HD. Some opt for quenched mods. Some people think the HD model is bad, some people think the HD model is great but Blizzard is crap.

If I'm playing Minecraft, no one is going to argue with me about which texture pack I should choose. But that's not the case with Warcraft.

Since the release of the reforged, I've seen a lot of discussion about graphics in the community. The discussion makes me feel sad.

I want the community to realize that graphics are just personal preferences, and that your liking of one image should not turn into an attack on another.

 

[Achille]

Perhaps I am missing out on context for such a discussion but I have not seen alot of attacks on the graphical changes in reforged beyond performance, quality of life features, and changes made to the base game. I enjoy your analogy of Minecraft because it can prove instrumental to understanding a foundational gripe of the community. Content created by the community using HD assets often lacks backwards compatibility due to a lack of SD model counterparts. In addition, content created by the community in the past would sometimes lack compatibility with HD due to performance issues or the strange model scaling of reforged's models. Where this comes to a breaking point in reforged is how certain features like custom campaigns are cut altogether, which would've been a wonderful thing for any new player to experience in warcraft 3.

Dismissing the gripes of 'old gamers' whose clients were forcibly updated to contain these new graphical changes (not by choice like in your Minecraft analogy) as a 'meaningless farce' is just about the most inflammatory comment that could be mustered. If you are truly sad about discussion of reforged vs classic graphics I don't understand why you would critique the critiquers via an argument of dismissal.

 

[Retera]

none of the older players realized they couldn't live with HD

Incorrect. In 2018 shortly after the announcement, I began brainstorming a Project Proposal draft on Google docs for how I could rewrite an SD-only modding-oriented replica the game. One main motivating reason is so that I can finish my Warcraft 3 mod, which has hundreds of custom MDX models that I authored myself mostly between 2004 and 2015.

So, when you say, "none", in this case that is an incorrect overstatement. I advise using "almost none" in the future.

Then things got complicated when the HD graphics weren't good looking

This is painfully subjective. I continue to believe that a substantial amount of the negative reaction to Reforged was based on the manner in which it replaced the Warcraft 3 install on everyone's computer with an online-only webpage game launcher that was 20-30x bigger than the original game. And, this replacement process began without first checking if the HDD had that much space available, so some players simply lost access to Warcraft 3 entirely even if that was a minority. I'm about as technical as a War3 user gets and I forgot about this and lost my laptop's ability to play War3 about 5 months after Reforged release when I accidentally opened the Battle.net launcher. It really does delete the old game off your hard drive without asking, and it really does not check that my hard drive is full.

Mistaking this hate/backlash at the loss of something as being a subjective art preference seems wrong to me. I am not telling you the Reforged art looks good either -- don't be confused. I am not making a statement about that here. I am just saying, personally and anecdotally, that when I think back on the public negative response in 2020 I believe the art was largely irrelevant.

But older players also attack reforged because they are afraid to learn new graphics, because they can only accept SD or SD+.

Wrong again. As it turns out, in certain instances like changing the color of a PKB file, learning the new graphics is borderline physically impossible. You can read more about how the company that created the Reforged particle format expressly does not support modifying this art format here on their forums:

Editing Color Information in PKB (baked files?) - PopcornFX answers

I'm trying to make edits to some game files for a ... /FB_Liquid_BW_8x8.tifAtlas.SourceAtlas.DefinitionAtlas.SubDivAtlas.BlendingsamplerShape_2C

answers.popcornfx.com

As an example, look at the lightning emitters on Reforged such as the beam effect used for Chain Lightning. If you make an SD map and call AddLightningLoc trigger function, the old game engine will draw a beam between two locations and then the beam lasts until you call RemoveLightning trigger function to eliminate it. On the HD graphics this system does not work the same. The lightning is drawn by the PKB lightning file, and many of those PKB lightnings define a hardcoded fade over time. After a few seconds, the lightning goes away. The visuals of the lightning are not permanent.
If you can send me a PKB file of the Chain Lightning (both primary and second) lightning, and the other 8 or 10 lightning PKB files in the HD graphics -- but where you mod these art assets not to fade, so that they exactly match the original HD lightning in every way except that they visually display permanently in accordance with how this system works on SD... If you can send me the 8 or 10 PKB files of these lightning effects modified with this fix to no longer fade away for me within the next 2 months (by Aug 6, 2022) to use in future custom HD projects, I will donate you $300 maybe in an amazon gift card or some other way that works.

Are you afraid? You afraid? Afraid of editing HD? Why don't you want $300?

No, you're not afraid. Rather, you won't take me up on it because there is next to nobody on Planet Earth who is capable of this. And the people who are capable are not interested, generally, because it would be incredibly technologically hard to do. Your one chance is to reach out to someone currently modding Reforged who already solved this problem. Admittedly I didn't think of that; I guess those guys have had 2 years to do it. I'll know if you get back to me within the first month that indeed you asked them for help and didn't do it yourself, but I'll stand by my word and still give you the $300 if you send me each and every fixed-to-be-permanent lightning PKB. You know why? Because I've got so little faith in those guys, too! Hahaha.
(And those files would actually be useful for Reforged modding.)

Don't tell people they are scared to do something because it was obfuscated to all hell in order to make it effectively impossible. That's offensive. Lightning Effects on Classic graphics mode are an image file anyone can edit with any free 2d image editor program in about 5 minutes. These people aren't afraid to learn something more complex. They simply don't learn it, because how would they?

The people modding HD aren't scared. On the contrary, it is profound that Hive workshop modders have created any modified HD vfx at all. Give credit where credit is due.

[In hindsight, I guess maybe you meant melee ladder players are afraid to learn the HD graphics, but Reforged doesn't have a ladder so why would anyone bother with that?]

I'm playing Minecraft, no one is going to argue with me about which texture pack I should choose. But that's not the case with Warcraft.

Okay so previously I thought you were talking about War3 modding which would lead me to a hysterical interpretation of what you are saying because of how incorrect it would be given that the modder needs to make his custom art in one mode or the other (Reforged/classic), but now I'm thinking your mind is on melee. So, let's give this the benefit of the doubt.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that on the Reforged graphics mode, the Water Elemental has a different icon at levels 1, 2, and 3 on Reforged graphics but has the same icon at all levels on Classic graphics. If you think about each icon as a symbol the player's brain must learn, having the icons be unique per level in the HD mode means that the player has to learn more symbols in order to perform at the same level of effectiveness. There is an argument to be made that these are meaningful symbols, so if a player did bother to learn them then perhaps the player will be more effective in the HD mode because of this additional subtle communication from the game engine. But, in principle learning a larger number of symbols is likely to take a human brain objectively longer.

Add to this the fact that on the HD graphics (or was it just the entire 1.32 client?) a lot of unit sounds were changed to be more randomly varied and less specific to the unit. That is an example where more symbols need to be processed and learned by the human brain to play at the same level, but they do not encode more additional information. As I understand it, the general Reforged footman death sounds might have 2 or 3 variations. On the classic graphics, when a footman dies the same exact sound plays in every case. A human brain that memorizes that sound can more quickly count the number of footmen who died in a battle. So, even with a liberal melee-oriented interpretation of what you are trying to say, I still find that I completely do not agree. Did I misunderstand you?

Since the release of the reforged, I've seen a lot of discussion about graphics in the community. The discussion makes me feel sad.

Yes. It is sad because these people wasted their time when they could have been playing or modding Warcraft 3, both of which I personally find more fulfilling.

I want the community to realize that graphics are just personal preferences, and that your liking of one image should not turn into an attack on another.

This is technologically false, so I want you to realize that you are making a false claim that is not subjective and is actually not true. Your liking of the new lightning effect graphic is an attack on my ability to use it to make a custom map with a persistent beam. If you want to prove me wrong, do the $300 challenge described above.

 

[Vibe]

Perhaps I am missing out on context for such a discussion

I noticed that my argument lacks discussion context. My fault.

In this one video, Grubby and his followers say they prefer SD+ over HD.

In this video, Shadi point out that Reforged failure is that it's not a full game, not because of the HD graphics.

I guess I'm referring to discussions like these.

I enjoy your analogy of Minecraft because it can prove instrumental to understanding a foundational gripe of the community. Content created by the community using HD assets often lacks backwards compatibility due to a lack of SD model counterparts.

I'm guessing Blizzard only considers melee players for backward compatibility.

Dismissing the gripes of 'old gamers' whose clients were forcibly updated to contain these new graphical changes (not by choice like in your Minecraft analogy) as a 'meaningless farce' is just about the most inflammatory comment that could be mustered.

Complaints about the short deadlines and incomplete features actually happened after the game was released and had nothing to do with complaining about the HD graphics.

If you are truly sad about discussion of reforged vs classic graphics I don't understand why you would critique the critiquers via an argument of dismissal.

That's my point, things got mixed up, and complaints about the lack of functionality started to turn into an all-out resistance to HD graphics.

 

[Retera]

complaints about the lack of functionality started to turn into an all-out resistance to HD graphics

But anyone who wants to use or promote the new graphics is forced to live with the lack of functionality, aren't they? And they are, by extension, promoting others to accept the lack of functionality?

 

[Achille]

"That's my point, things got mixed up, and complaints about the lack of functionality started to turn into an all-out resistance to HD graphics."

I don't really understand, so are you trying to say that people do not like the HD graphics because they did not appreciate the lack of functionality? That's a bit of a stretch. Even in the grubby video you posted it seemed that he was arguing that he appreciated the functional aesthetic of classic over HD graphics. I hardly see that as a personal attack on players who play on HD.

Your whole argument here is kind of getting a little fuddled up, maybe restating what you actually mean could be helpful or fruitful for stimulating a discussion. As it stands your responses to my initial message don't even seem to add anything:

"Complaints about the short deadlines and incomplete features actually happened after the game was released and had nothing to do with complaining about the HD graphics."

What does that even mean in relation to your point? Obviously people are pissed about the incomplete features, and if these people are pissed then it clearly has nothing to do with HD graphics. It seems to me that you are;

1. Aware that people do not like reforged for lack of functionality.
2. Aware that people complain about HD graphics.

What I cannot understand is how you are somehow trying to tie these two things together as some sort of bundle, as though critiquing reforged is an automatic critique of its aesthetic or that a defense of its aesthetic somehow a defense of the game. I suppose the best way to properly educate you on this is to understand the reality of why people are mad.

You stated that:

"Things got complicated when the HD graphics weren't good looking, so new players didn't buy it."

First off, I love the HD graphics of Reforged. I don't care about the extra seconds you save for ability or unit recognition, I don't care if the grass burns cataracts into my eye-holes. What I do care about is custom content, and if I were melee player I sure would want a ladder. It wasn't a matter of people not buying the game, it was a matter of people refunding it. Check up on the history surrounding Reforged's release and you will find record reports of people refunding the game, not because they didn't like the graphics, you can see those on previews. But because of a lack of features and compatibility.

If you want to keep believing that people are personally attacking you because of how many pixels you got on your runeblade go right on ahead.

 

[Vibe]

So, when you say, "none", in this case that is an incorrect overstatement. I advise using "almost none" in the future.

I watched your latest video in full. I know your appeal to Warcraft 3 is more about editor functionality than graphics. But I think most people don't know exactly what their demands are.

Mistaking this hate/backlash at the loss of something as being a subjective art preference seems wrong to me. I am not telling you the Reforged art looks good either -- don't be confused. I am not making a statement about that here. I am just saying, personally and anecdotally, that when I think back on the public negative response in 2020 I believe the art was largely irrelevant.

I'm guessing I'm hitting too hard, and when I'm talking about "disappointment and anger," I think I'm just referring to "disappointment and anger" at the picture.

Negative reactions from the community I received during reforged BETA 2019. People are complaining that it's not BlizzCon's UI and portraits, it's not BlizzCon's grass textures and tree textures. Its grass skin in Lordaeron is as green as the classic image. Its graphics are all too unfamiliar.

but now I'm thinking your mind is on melee. So, let's give this the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, these discussions are more about melee.

This is technologically false, so I want you to realize that you are making a false claim that is not subjective and is actually not true.

I guess I'm not talking about the technicality of the graphics, I'm talking about the player's reaction to the graphics, it's more about art.

 

[Retera]

it's more about art

I mean, I do almost feel bad for being kinda negative here. As the guy who made Retera Model Studio, I suppose I have a weird part in things. My tool seemingly only really rose to prominance when Blizzard forced people to use it, basically, by changing the graphics format and outdating a lot of the other War3 model editor tools.

So, I would likely be a more popular guy if I was really pro HD art. I have certainly helped people with HD art over the last two years now and then.

But, yeah, I guess you saw me rant for an hour so maybe I shouldn't interject much more.

I think it would help with your discussion if we could get a version of a pre-Reforged game binary to play using Reforged assets. If you know of anybody who figured that out, please link it here. I think it might have a profound affect on this discussion you want to have if you could somehow give people a way to play the Frozen Throne 2003 engine but with the 2020 Reforged graphics loaded in there, so that people could compare the experience of the graphics alone. It would certainly defeat any gripes about game features entering in this very art-centric discussion that you're saying you want to have.

 

[Vibe]

so are you trying to say that people do not like the HD graphics because they did not appreciate the lack of functionality?

Yes. Things got mixed up.

I hardly see that as a personal attack on players who play on HD.

In the Chinese community, most players choose SD(1.27), some players choose quenching mod(1.32), and almost no one chooses original HD(1.32).

I'm opting for the original HD graphics, but people really attack the original HD graphics.

Well, I think I again forgot to explain the background of many of my arguments.

First off, I love the HD graphics of Reforged.

Me too.

I don't care about the extra seconds you save for ability or unit recognition, I don't care if the grass burns cataracts into my eye-holes.

Me too.

if I were melee player I sure would want a ladder. It wasn't a matter of people not buying the game, it was a matter of people refunding it.

In fact, most Chinese pirate players have never had a battle.net ladder, they can't connect to battle.net, and after 2015 they started to use the Netease ladder. Few in the melee Chinese community are complaining about ladders. They had never seen the lion on the Doors of Battle.net.

It wasn't a matter of people not buying the game, it was a matter of people refunding it.

On this point, it's not a conflict, new players don't buy because of the graphics, and old players get refunds because of the function.

As I said at the beginning, HD is more for new players.

If you want to keep believing that people are personally attacking you because of how many pixels you got on your runeblade go right on ahead.

It really happens. Almost no one in the Chinese community chooses HD like me but doesn't need quenching. People attacked me personally because I chose HD, thinking I was Blizzard's white knight.

 

[Vibe]

the Frozen Throne 2003 engine but with the 2020 Reforged graphics

I know the new graphics are based on an upgrade to the engine from 1.29 to 1.31, I guess you mean full classic features but with new graphics. I know this kind of disjointed discussion is far from reality, so I say things are mixed up.

But anyone who wants to use or promote the new graphics is forced to live with the lack of functionality, aren't they? And they are, by extension, promoting others to accept the lack of functionality?

What can I say, things got mixed up.

 

[Drake53]

If I'm playing Minecraft, no one is going to argue with me about which texture pack I should choose. But that's not the case with Warcraft.

That's because the difference between SD and HD graphics is not only textures but also models.
Sometimes the models look so different in the other graphics mode that a map author may be forced to disable it: Question about structures in WE and when testing the map.

 

[YourArthas]

Reforged is first and foremost a remaster. A remaster has to respect the original designs so you can still recognise the game. I'm not talking about poly counts or texture quality, I am talking about the art style and the design choices. The art style of Reforged is not fitting with the Warcraft Franchise (wc3/wow/hearthstone/heroes of the storm) this is the first thing that is wrong. But most importantly the designs are ruined. Even if you say "okay art style is realistic you can't change it" the designs have to be "remasters" of the old models. That's why we the people prefer "SD+". It could be "HD++" in terms of polycount and texture quality and people will still prefer it because of the designs and artstyle being right.

 

[StormKnight]

I want the community to realize that graphics are just personal preferences.

That might be the case from the perspective of the unchangeable fate that everyone is stuck with right now, hence making the optimal solution for anything productive be our outcry in an attempt to get features, bugs and functions fixed in a way that it would be respectful to SD and HD and therefore everyone can live together happily ever after.

The biggest BUT from StormKnight this month

But from the perspective of what visual overhaul War3 should have got, it is an objective critique that the fundamental direction of the visuals both artistically and technically damaged a community that had projects, maps, support and loyalty to the game for all the duration of time roughly 10 years that Blizzard proceeded to abandon them. and what does blizzard do when they look back at wc3 ? prioritize a movie experience and make a nostolgia bait for wow people, release skins for overwatch and other blizzard games.
i ask myself, WHO is Reforged competing with ? one of Reforgeds problems was that it didn't compete in its proper category which it could easily have won its competetors of Age of Empires, Command and Conquer and Starcraft 1 and 2 or any new RTS games on the horizon, Warcraft III excelled being a SINGLE product that could out compete all 3 of the age remasters + age of empires 4 and survive for LONGER. the models artistically while a subjective matter do have an objective aspect to them in that had they not been such a 180 and overdone waste of resources it could've very likely made a future where almost 80% of all custom games and atleast 50% of all skirmish players would undeniably choose HD over SD. now that's what i call a success and a jackpot.

When Blizzard came back to Warcraft 3, i dont think they looked at the community for what it was and what it had evolved to one of those evolutions regarding the visual topic being that Wc3s models were easy to modify and reproduce, now understandably HD models would by default be harder to reproduce in comparison but they could atleast blend in more or use more traditional methods instead of what it is right now, the way they treated and marketed Reforged very much felt like they thought War3 was dead since 2006 and now here they are coming back as saviors to make some grand singleplayer experience, appease some melee fans, put some cutscenes and go away.

The 2018 cutscene cinmetic is more or less very much of the same quality that world of warcraft ingame render cinmatics are, with full motion capture esque animations and everything, for each wow expansion that is insanely more profitable and popular then War3, it has like 10 of them per expansion, and Blizzard for War3 Reforged actually marketed themselves as if they were going to do exactly that with over 100+ cutscenes probably more with Warcraft 3, that my friend tells you how insane and over ambitious were their out of touch goals when in reality something more subtle and humble yet not too old school would've been what the community needed to show a broader audience everything that they were missing on when they forgot war3 even exists, it makes you ponder are they making a movie with such weird promises or are they making a game. the campaign itself could have been improved with greater quality missions, good terraining and asthetics and imployment of far more unique heros then standard skirmish abilities they all had in the campaign without the need for such resource wasting on cutscenes or overdone models.

When Reforged was finally released, maps that genuinely wanted to transition to a higher definition visuals were stuck in a sea of an art direction so wholly inconsistent with traditional blizzard art that they either decided to leave, or stay on classic. it is an exceptionally CRUEL point of view when i see some HD people implying that the classic community did not deserve something that was "roughly" catered to them, not strictly, roughly, purist one on one replication is a whole different category, no, something that didnt mess with direction too much and delivered models that were functionally less demanding on systems and performance is what would have been best. even if Reforged models were purist 1 on 1 but were still dependent on the lightning engine for so much of their looks and reflected to every light and were absolutely bloated with 40.000 polygons for BASIC models like a grunt it would've been "somewhat" better but technically demanding and hard to modify, Reforged is both the peak of complete artistic 180 and maximum performance demand compared to anything even remotely appropriate for a modding community of an RTS game that also supports good level skirmish/melee activity.

Which is by the way something that wc3 unlike other RTS games seemed to do a decently good job at, i can't really see how any RTS has excelled well enough on both having a replayable and nice skirmish and an explosive user generated scene, and the values that helped make that how it was is what was lost when Blizzard thought they should just man handle the game by sheer force of official model numbers instead of making those models easier to reproduce and less demanding. they even chose a special effects creation method that should literally have a bumper sticker stamped on it reading "This is useless for a user generate dependent rts game".