Tell me if i should continue...

[Magnet199]

The Map
^ give me a name for this map please

What is this map?
This map will be about a realistic battle, meaning there will be some crazy units (giants, orcs, night elf, etc.) but it will be a realistic meaning that units will die faster unlike 1000000 hits to kill.

How will this go?
The map will start out by choosing a race to play with (yes, there will be multiple races to play with ) then you need to build your empire and crush your opponents.

What does this map require?
This map will require a strategic player that is smart and can read other players idea of their army.
By saying that, meaning there will be towers, outposts, and scouts, and for the units there will be archers, soldiers, cavalry, and also flying units! You will need to know what can beat what, according to armor and damage type.

So whats the ideas you got right now?
For now, i got comments about archers, that need to be a chance for a critical hit, not by saying that they have an ability named: Critical Hit, but its like this 1-10 for example, 1 is the toe P) and 10 is the head, all depends on you luck.
I also got an idea about that not only archers are good against the other units that means, finish your done, but still 20 archers can beat 20 footmen, but at least 5 archers will die.
Now also because the game has to be realistic, that means the archers need time to reload their arrows, to shoot again, not shoot shoot shoot shoot.

Can you list the races, for now?
Humans: Specialized in balanced and armored units
Night elves: Specialized in archers/long range assaults
Orcs: Specialized to take damage and deal damage at the same time
Undead: Specialized in AS and MS

these are for now, to come:
Naga, blood elves, ogres, dragons, Taurens, trolls, and Narubians AKA spider-lings.
will add more in the near future

Please give me some suggestions and idea to cont. this idea, and also PLEASE give me a name for this map.

If you think i should do it, can you give me a name for the map
If you think i should stop, well i will

 

[Radicool]

It seems like a good idea. I haven't seen a game like that hosted on WC3 before. So it's an original idea.
In terms of the "damage upgrade", it seems pointless if units have more than 1 damage if all units have only 1 hp.
To add to the originality and "realistic" feel, you could set this map in a time period such as the Korean War, Vietnam War etc, or if your using archers, you could aim for a medieval time period.
Sounds like a good idea though, go ahead with it

 

[Magnet199]

but who said there are only units (human) ?
and there is an hp upgrade, but like i said, it will be races, every race has its own unique bonus

 

[Adiktuz]

i mean like real life, not 1000 hits to die, a one hit die type

but who said there are only units (human) ?
and there is an hp upgrade, but like i said, it will be races, every race has its own unique bonus

-->those two are in disagreement... what's the use of HP or damage upgrade if you want a 1 hit die type of a map???

 

[Bloodbath]

atleast let them have 4-5 hits...archers are not snipers..

and they dont usualy headshot.they hit shoulders or leg or belly wtf..
footman have shields so they can block

and if u wana make it more realsitic make the archers have limited arrows so when they run out of it they need to go home take more arrows


name suggestion probably...hmm

pigs killed in pignics beta(unique)

 

[GhostThruster]

I think this is a great idea. It could have alot more indepth strategy than Wc3.

 

[InfernalTater]

Just a word of advice, if you want it to be realistic, don't give units 1 hp...
You ought to give the units enough health to die from at least 3 arrows or two sword slices. Otherwise, not only would it be unrealistic, but also a damage upgrade would be useless against someone with no health upgrades, when your game is 1-hit-die...

 

[Tleno]

Actually I suggest siding with 100 hp, and like shall we say swords dealing 25-35 damage and possibly causing bleeding or other similar effects. I mean bleeding, broken bones, shock, poisoning, low morale, desease...
Of course then there should be some one-kill-death units too, but more of a siege type. Like balistas and catapults.

 

[Magnet199]

NICE NICE
all ideas are nice, especially the bleeding one, if more people think i should make it 100 and units with little bit higher damage it will be cool

and for the "10000 hits to die" i mean like, it would be footmen, and it will be realistic but it will be really boring if its ONLY humans :S like no special stuff
i could make like night elves, specility : arechers? yeye? no? please comments ^.^ im really going to do it if more ideas come

please give name ^_*

1+ rep for all comment

 

[InfernalTater]

It doesn't matter what the health value and attack values are specifically set to, it's the proportions that matter. Simply make sure that a unit would die from between 2 and 5 attacks, depending on the damage of the attacker.
For example:
Footman: 2 dmg 3 hp
Archer: 1 dmg 2 hp (having higher range makes up for the lower stats, as when units die so quickly, archers would kill several footmen before being attacked)

This would cause footman to 1-hit an archer, 2-hit a footman, while archers 2-hit archers and 3-hit footmen, which is fairly realistic. And, of course, defend would have a chance to deflect ranged piercing attacks such as arrows.

The same would go if you used larger numbers, such as
Footman: 12 dmg 20 HP
Archer: 8 DMG 10 HP

Larger numbers provide for more flexibility and balance, so I suggest using larger numbers. Simply try to keep your proportions balanced.

 

[Tleno]

You know, 100 would be kinda standart...
Okay, one-shot killers could be all the artilery units, also maybe some covert assasins used to destroy the elite enemy units, also maybe some final tier units...

 

[Magnet199]

hmm i see what you say TLI-Inferno, i will have to make sure to balance these stuff hmm ok i will try, but what about the other races? i wont keep only humans, like i said it will be boring to play a no other units game, you know what im saying? like for now, im going to use the original races: orc, night elf, human, and undead.
but all have to have their special abilities or something that they are good at,
lets try this:
Gouls:
Hp 3
Damage: 1 ( becuase they are weak, and light, BUT are fast and can catch archers faster)
Movement Speed: double the normal for the other units
^ you see what i mean here?
and for the night elf:
Hp 2
Damage: 1
^ becuase their spaceilty are archers, that makes their archers V
Archer (night elf)
Hp: 3
damage: 2
and same goes to orc, their specialty is hp
if you think race idea is stupid i can toss that out
and for the Tleno, um i see what you mean great idea, reminds me of conflic battlefield good to see people really like this idea thanks guys

but now i need a name for the map :S

 

[InfernalTater]

Well, as I said earlier, you would do best to use larger numbers in order to have more variability. If you're going to have multiple races, then you will definately need room for variability.
Just keep in mind these basic rules when making the stats for ghouls, footmen, and grunts:
footmen generally have more defense, average health, average damage, average (Fast) attack speed.
Grunts generally have higher health and damage, slower attack speed, average defense and cost more to obtain. If you are going to make the units equally obtainable, then you would need to make grunts have even slower attack speed in order to balance it out.
Lastly, ghouls are generally somewhat low health, average damage, high attack speed, little to no defense
Archers would have the lowest in everything (if you want it to be realistic). You would balance this out by giving them high range (also being realistic). When units die so quickly, an archer's range definately makes up for low stats. For example, if you had 10 archers with 20 damage, 1.5 atk speed, 40 health, 800 range and 10 ghouls with 25 damage, 1.0 atk speed, 50 health, then, even though the ghouls are much stronger, the archers would kill half of the ghouls before the ghouls got to the archers. The ghoul's higher health and attack rate would cause the fight to be rather close, but the archers would probably win. Against footmen, however, the archers would most likely lose, due to the footmen's high defense against piercing attacks. It's all a sort of... Paper beats rock, Rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper... with a 4th one added in... Archer would be paper, orc would be rock, ghouls would be scissors, and footmen would be some sort of metal-plated mud-rock, if you know what i mean.

 

[Magnet199]

amazing idea :O
now im using you as my primary idea dude
now that you gave me basic AS MS DM, what exactly should the hp be accourding to your examples? because im going to use that, and you forgot the Night Elves :S
anyways i need name for the map also, name ideas all dried out

 

[GhostThruster]

Like tleno said, it should be around 100HP for a standard unit like a Footman. Also, can you add some role-defining abilities and properties like in SC2 and make the attack/armor bonuses less significant in defining what beats what? For example, if you've played Sc2, you'll know that Roaches crush Stalkers even though Stalkers deal extra damage to Roach armor.

 

[Supermj]

Very nice so far! This is something hard to do, so if you pull it off I'll be impressed. Just be sure there are lots of random variables (I.e. Stun, bleeding, crits, knockbacks, evade, disarm) so that battles won't last 3 seconds. If you need a hand on anything just let me know, I got ideas of how to carry this stuff out. Are you planning full RTS or Skirmishes will preselected armies?

 

[Magnet199]

GhostThruster:

um sorry, i didnt play SC2 nor SC3, so can you explain in a Warcrafty way
do you mean, like although the damage is the weakness of that armor, but that unit is strong enough (as in tier) so it wont die that fast?
or do you mean in numbers? :S

Supermj:

ofcourse i need help -.- im a rookie right?
i barely can make triggers and varibles i have NO idea how to use those, but for the object manneger, oh my god how i got good at it
so i could hire people to help me on this project but not yet.

I need more ideas to start it off and give better description on what this map will be about, also name is needed, a good name that matches a war between races and this was is similar to real life wars, like you get a cut you bleed, you get hit in the head, you get stunned/knocked over, you miss an attack, your hit hard enough to disarm you enemy, archers miss shots, arrow storm skills with the archers, these stuff you feel me people?

more ideas and this map will be ready to be worked on

Rep+ for the people who commented/suggested

 

[InfernalTater]

I can do triggers, I'm great at them. I'm also very good with terrain, if you need me. I can create models and textures as well (I don't upload my good ones, that's why everything I've uploaded is rejected D
As for the units. I did include night elves, I said night elves were generally a mix of dps and range, and generally had both low health and low armor.

 

[Magnet199]

aha i see, you are perfect for this map my terrain skills are crappy i will message you when i will start working on it

 

[apsycobear]

If you really want it to be realistic give all ranged units (archers and such) a critical strike sorta spell, call it Mortal Wound and make it do # times normal dmg, then replace ur tech that increases dmg to a tech called Sharpshooter or Marksman or somthing and have it increase the % chance of the critical strike hitting.

 

[Magnet199]

nice idea will think about how to balance that

 

[Tleno]

Actually about ranged units, you could separate them to ordinary archers that deal moderate damage (They could also have a very small splash range and slow arrow movement speed if you want to make it more realistic), and marksmen or elite archers that would have deadly attack, but would be more costlyer...

 

[Magnet199]

but its actually a training camps will be in the map, a map with no upgrade is silly IMO :S

 

[InfernalTater]

Actually about ranged units, you could separate them to ordinary archers that deal moderate damage (They could also have a very small splash range and slow arrow movement speed if you want to make it more realistic), and marksmen or elite archers that would have deadly attack, but would be more costlyer...

You call splash damage on an arrow realistic??
Arrows don't have splash. Not even tiny splash. To be realistic, you could have an upgrade for stronger bows, allowing an arrow to plunge through the target and hit a target behind it (similar to the upgrade to night elf siege weaponry in regular war3)

And, as for realistic damage. Make sure that piercing units have dice (meaning not a simple 22-22 damage, but a 8-36 damage), as, realistically, there are many parts of the body where an arrow could deal minimal damage, areas where an arrow could inflict the typical arrow wound, and areas where the arrow could pierce vital organs. An arrow doesn't simply deal normal damage or vital damage. A more skilled bowman would have less dice, and so deal 30-42 damage, as the skilled bowman is better at hitting vital organs, and would not often fire an arrow at a person's foot.

 

[Magnet199]

great idea, didn't thought about the dice thingy ^.^ nice nice more gimme more ideas before i start

 

[Razosh]

so it's going to be 1 shot game but you can upgrade your hp so they can take more then 1 sword piercing their hearts?

 

[InfernalTater]

so it's going to be 1 shot game but you can upgrade your hp so they can take more then 1 sword piercing their hearts?

You need to read the other posts before posting.

Btw, magnet, you should update your first post so that people can get to know what your new plans are.

And, magnet, please slow down on the rep, you've given me +2 rep in the past week and all I've done is given you ideas without actually making anything myself.

 

[Magnet199]

you deserved these reps for your ideas and planning to help me i dont find it wrong?

and ye i will update it,

 

[GhostThruster]

um sorry, i didnt play SC2 nor SC3, so can you explain in a Warcrafty way
do you mean, like although the damage is the weakness of that armor, but that unit is strong enough (as in tier) so it wont die that fast?
or do you mean in numbers? :S

Basically, make units more interesting and give them more indepth strategic options and counters.

 

[Tleno]

Well, yeah, and there are few ways how to make counter systems:
-Rock paper scissors. First unit beats second, second beats third, third beats fourth, that one beats another... ...last one beats first. Simpliest from all ways, but pretty booring and not exactly enjoyable.
-Advanced rock paper scissors. Kinda like Warcraft 3/Starcraft 2. See, the unit is strong against some units, and useless against others. Like shall we say an interceptor is unmatched in destroying bombers, good against other aircrafts, weak against ground and useless against anti-air turrets. Now it's immportant that all units would have a similar amount of counters, and that using crowd of weak units or single titanical unit that costs as much as the crowd would be somewhat even.
-Weaknesses/Strenghts. Like C&C generals. Unit itself belongs to some type (Infantry, building, light vehicle, tank, aircraft). And every unit has strenghts only against specific types and weak against others. Like Flamethrower is strong against infantry and structures, but also useless against vehicles and air. Missle turrets can be strong against tanks and aircrafts, but not good against infantry.

Now, some units are ussually realy specific and don't belong to any type, like Artilery is traditionally effective only against big groups of units in one area, or against structure, and requires some cover in close combat. also there can be utlity and support units, such as medics, mages and whatsoever. They are useless in combat, but they boost the efficiency of the other units a lot.

 

[Magnet199]

GhostThruster:

aha now i see, yeah i will make sure that will happen

Tleno:

Wow, nice i will make sure i will add that in
and yeah siege cant attack close combat, and how did you know i was thinking of C&C?
i will try to mix all these idea to create this amazing map

But please, the main thing i need right now is:
MAP NAME < < < < <

 

[Tleno]

Firstly describe the overall gameplay, the place it takes place and the whole story and lore of map...

 

[Magnet199]

ok um, the map will be a clashy style map, were races fight each other, and also more then 2 teams will be playing, maybe 2 players each team, and there will be 6 teams, to be more fun, it mostly will be about war and battle, no it wont be modern, meaning guns and lasers and stuff like that, but it will be about old fighting, in other words Medieval times.

If you want deeper info. you can say that its a war between races, and it has come to a final battle, last team standing wins. Is that enough ? :S

 

[Tleno]

[Whatever] Clash?
Devasating War?
Endless Strugle?

Those are all I got now...

 

[Magnet199]

not bad, but i want a better one that when people see the name they want to check this map out you hear me bro?

 

[InfernalTater]

Btw a quick word of advice: Don't make the damage type difference too extreme. Games which make 200% or 40% and such cause units to be far less realistic, and causes gameplay to be less fun.
I advise that, if you do make damage types and armor type differences, do not making all humans deal more damage to all elves, or all elves dealing more to orcs, as units use several different types of weapons, not to mention this would severely ruin the balance in a 1v1 fight.
I suggest that you use the normal siege/normal/pierce/magic/hero/whatever system, and try to make sure that the various attacks deal no less than 60% to a particular armor type and no more than 150% to an armor type (except for relations to fortified armor, as fortified armor realistically takes minimal damage from pierce and extremely high from siege, just as in the regular game. But don't make a normal deal an enormous 2x to normal armor and 0.4x to other armor, as this would offset balance, and turn the game into a unit-counter rather than strategy-counter)

 

[Tleno]

Yes, no races should have strenghts against other ones and be weak against others... and that should apply to all of tiers...
Well actually the unit-counter may work... have you played RUSE? In that game all the units are obviously counters of each other type, but the main gameplay idea is that you use special abilities you dispose to fool enemy and make him prepare for entirel different unit than you're going to train. So the obvious counter may work very well if the whole countering will still be beatable by fooling the enemy or using some tactical maneviours, such as flanking the enemy.

 

[Magnet199]

agreed, well i will see what i can do about it, name is the most important thing right now

 

[InfernalTater]

Real War?

 

[Magnet199]

lol

ok now put this a side, i got a problem now, i think i will pass this project to someone, i got some school problems -.- that means i have 1 hour free time, and in this free time i can only sleep, i guess i will work on this project in the summer holiday, :S
so TLI-Inferno...you taking over? or.....just wait? :S

 

[InfernalTater]

You're probably going to have to just wait. You could hand the map over to me but I would only work on it occasionally, as I'm already working on 3 of my own maps, making 1 other map which I'm actually putting more effort into than my own, even though I'm making it at a request from someone else, and also still making terrains, triggers, models, and skins for other people and myself.
So, I'll try to work on your map every once in a while, but not as actively as my own, as I generally only put in about 2 hours of work a week, and I generally tend to go through occasional months where I don't work on any of these things.
But ok, send it to me in a PM and I'll see if I can get some work done.

 

[Magnet199]

but the second problem is, i got these idea, and still i didnt even start the map, because i dont know the right map size for this type, now because there are 4 teams so, any idea, i could start off the basics you know :3

 

[Tleno]

"Big" size could work. Or Huge if the map is gonna like real epic...

 

[Sky Green]

I like your idea but what about food cost?

 

[InfernalTater]

Like I said, send me your map. And, if you want it to be a realistic war game, you'd do best to make it as large as possible. That means 256x256 (which I'd be perfectly happy with making for you).
I'd need to know if you plan on having a navy first, before I made the terrain.
Secondly, I could make the terrain 480x480, however this would:
1: Take quite a while to terrain
2: Be impossible size, meaning you would be unable to change map options or player options within the map, and any functions calling for this would not work.

Basically, I will most likely 256x256, however 480x480 is indeed possible.
Hand me the map and I'll make your terrain, but make sure to tell me if you're going to have a navy.

 

[Razosh]

You should never stop working on something if you belive in it.

 

[Magnet199]

true true

 

[Tleno]

Well yeah. and we kinda like didn't had any map like this before... though I'm curious about one thing... see, since it's gonna be a map with lots of units, and Warcraft has limitations on unit control, how are you going to control large armies? Will there be the classic "Attack beacon" thing, or something new? Or maybe you'll have some kind of commander units that will be able to attack-move order to all your units in AoE?

 

[GhostThruster]

Squad system maybe? Though adding squads will remove a lot of space for strategies (but it will also add some).

 

[InfernalTater]

Then again, you can always use control groups (hit Ctrl+1) to store groups, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0, that's 120 units stored into groups for easy movement. Since you will most likely also have workers which will not be in attack groups, this should be plenty, considering that you're planning on having 12 people, which would result in 1440 military units, let alone how many workers each person would have.
However, I am gonna make a multi-group system (allowing you to add units to a stored group which you can order all at once to do any order, such as attack-move, move, patrol, etc, at the same time.
I'm not gonna be making this right away, though, cuzz I'm already working on all kinds of things.