Support Protection or Not?

[Captain Griffen]

We do not support the protection or opening of protected maps: topics regarding these subjects will be closed!

That's a butchery of the English language, and the deviation from grammar as we know it (the only way it makes grammatical sense is that you don't support the protection of protection maps, or opening them). Could be it should read DEprotection...?

If not, then why not? Doesn't entirely fit with the presence of the Map Optimizer as a tool, either (although there is the argument that the optimizer doesn't have to protect maps).

 

[The Last Istari]

Actually it does make sense.

"We do not support the protection OR opening of protected maps.

When they say protection, they obviously mean topics regarding the protection of unprotected maps. When they say the opening of protected maps, they mean deprotection.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Actually it does make sense.

"We do not support the protection OR opening of protected maps.

When they say protection, they obviously mean topics regarding the protection of unprotected maps. When they say the opening of protected maps, they mean deprotection.

It makes no grammatical sense.

"We do not support the protection (or opening) of protected maps"
"We do not support the protection (or opening of) protected maps"
"We do not support the protection (or opening of protected) maps"

That's just an objective fact of English.

 

[busterkomo]

Yes, Griffen is right. Also, why host the Download for protection tools if you don't support it?

 

[Huurka]

This post might be interesting.

The Staff has discussed this problem, and the decision has been made. No map protection or map de-protection discussions are allowed in the World Editor Help Zone.

 

[Captain Griffen]

That doesn't answer whether it is supported by THW or not.

 

[Huurka]

I think it's allowed to talk in Tools section of the forum.

 

[donut3.5]

Once upon a time there were two hordes of noobs who flooded the forums. One horde decided to ask "OMG HAOW 2 UNPROTEKT????" These people did not understand the point of protection, or how to respect other people's works. The second horde begged "OMG HAOW 2 PROTEKT?????" These people could not use their eyes, the search button, or common sense. It is likely their map wasn't even worth protecting in the first place.
If its the grammar issue you're bothered about, I think, poor grammar or not, it gets the point across.
If it doesn't, here's a summary:
Do not discuss the opening of protected maps.
Do not discuss the protecting of maps.
I hope that made it clear.
Now, onto the question of map optimizers. In the map submission rules, it says we allow protected maps. Therefore, protecting your map isn't banned. Only discussing it is. Sure it might not make all the most sense in the world, but its better than letting the two hordes of noobs flood the WEHZ forum.
--donut3.5--

 

[Captain Griffen]

...you guys really don't quite seem to be following English.

Not supporting something as a site policy != not allowing discussions on it in the WE helper forum. WC3C doesn't allow such debates (they far too often go to flame wars), but we support map protection and develop of it, for example.

 

[donut3.5]

Well, read the two individual sets of rules. I didn't check recently, but when I last read, here's the breakdown.
Don't discuss it in the forums, however you are free to submit protected maps. You are not, however, allowed to submit maps you deprotected and stole.
EDIT: Saw your point about the definition of "supporting it". We don't support it, many people discourage it, as it prevents the learning process. However, you are free to do it.
--donut3.5--

 

[~Void~]

"We do not support the protection or deprotection of maps". Is that better?

 

[BlinkBoy]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this rule, because the decision had been made by Rui himself, while we were discussing the topic, not by Ralle. I would like to quote the topic, but its inside the staff's forum, and well I'm not allowed to do quotes from it.

I'll explain my point of view on the matter, according to most people in the staff who were against Map Protection, the reason they gaved was that, it avoided people from learning from other maps. But let me ask something, if people need to learn from maps, then why do we have this forum at all? This forum had been created to help people with map making in all senses, thus stating that "map protection shouldn't be discussed" is contradictory to the forums.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Also, the argument 'learn from other maps' fails in that, often, the maps coding is crap. I know large parts of Warlords's coding is really, really awful, but exists but it works with decent efficiency, but anyone learning from it would end up coding like a retarded monkey.

 

[BlinkBoy]

yeah pretty much, people don't learn from other maps, they copy from other maps. That's the fact, all they know is Copy/Paste. Also 99% of the persons trying to unprotect a map, do it to edit it, rather than learning from it, so it's pointless.

 

[Velmarshal]

Well I learned to manage variables and dialog boxes trough some maps.
And I have a question. I saw 2 types of map protection.
1st map is impossible (to me) to open in we.
2nd map can be opened in we but all files and triggers are missing.
Does the optimizer protect the map 1st way or second?

 

[busterkomo]

First way, but I think there's an option to have it open able in the WE.

 

[Hakeem]

Working examples are the greatest source for a learning programmer. This is fact.
Just because there are bad examples out there we should destroy all examples?

 

[HappyTauren]

The problem is that there are 95% bad examples. There are some maps I would protect just so people don't learn from them.

 

[VGsatomi]

Also 99% of the persons trying to unprotect a map, do it to edit it, rather than learning from it, so it's pointless.

Actually, at least with my experience, that has been the other way around. Most of the time it screws people wanting to learn. It saves time trying to track down the author to ask about it, who usually blows them off, or post in the forums where depending on the difficulty of the subject, often get unsatisfactory answers. Basically its a time saver. People who deprotect to edit and try to post usually get caught and have their work thrown off sites (often accompanied by bans)...mainly because the only maps people seem to think worth stealing are the high profile ones that everyone knows who the original author is anyway.
-VGsatomi

 

[BlinkBoy]

That was years ago, that unprotection was succesful on unprotecting triggers and jass in a readable way; but now it's way too different, unprotectors only unprotect the map to make it workable, instead of a learning source. There are also a big amount of resources for people to learn and the forums to help people.

If you deny discussion of protection just for such stupid reason, then what are these forums for, aren't they for teaching people? aren't they for sharing ideas?, aren't they for ENCOURAGING map making?. "It just saves time to unprotect maps" come on, that's a very dumb reason for backing up unprotection, Patience is a virtue, the more you hartvest, the bigger is reward.

Working examples are the greatest source for a learning programmer. This is fact.
Just because there are bad examples out there we should destroy all examples?

the good examples are uploaded in systems and spells sections, there are also lots of open source maps around. I don't think a learning programmer requires more than this. and It's also the map's author right to decide whether should his map be open or not.

Just like the EULA protects softwares of being reverse engeenered, the same should happen with maps, the only difference is that one is a law and the other is a conduct, but both are based in Morale.

 

[Sabertooth]

I learn from looking in maps I know are unprotected (old versions of wintermaul to find out a basic way to do the TD thing) and from tutorials/asking questions. The problem is -- as its been said -- is that the common bnet person will not learn from the map, but cnp the triggers/other stuff over to their map.
I would guess map makers protect their map for reasons such as people stealing specific resources, not because they "don't want people to learn."
Everyone wants people to learn, last time I checked.

 

[Arvedui]

I myself have learned from several maps that were unorotected how to do certain triggers. I did not copy and paste from the map but looked at each trigger, tried to understand why/what it was doing, see how I could potentially improve it/modify it for my needs, and do it myself.

Though, I can understand map makers wanting to protect their maps. It's their work and they don't want other people to edit it and make it crappier, or to steal the resources that are in it.

I think for a site like this, that the discussion of map protection should be allowed, but deprotection not. It's the author's prerogative whether or not to protect it and that should be respected.

 

[Hakeem]

It's also the map's author right to decide whether should his map be open or not.

Yes, and that's their decision, but I'm gonna be pretty annoyed when a map does something amazing and it's protected so I can't readily look how it did it.

I don't protect my maps because all I need to do is upload them here and people will know who made it. If someone wants to add cheats to my maps, I don't care, I'll host my version.

 

[Velmarshal]

Anyway, thanks to a unprotected (never been protected) rpg, I did my first system.
It helped me to figer out the sizes and the indexes with the variables.

 

[Rui]

Is this an attack at my grammar or something?

To clear up things, I never decided anything. That guideline was written by Wolverabid, which means I did not write it, so you can not blame my grammar but his.

As for "Rui decided"... first, I believe you read the thread where Ralle said that things discussed there are not to be leaked, and second, that thread was no map-protection-or-not discussion. Wolverabid is an administrator and he wrote that guideline, however, since it was old and he is gone I decided to ask if it was still valid.
Since Ralle did not have a solid opinion on it himself, I simply agreed with VGsatomi and unallow both.

Also, if you're trying to learn something, then a Warcraft III site is always the best choice, no? Instead of pulling your hair out when your World Editor crashes upon loading a map, read the Tutorials and post in the World Editor Help Zone for help on creating triggers and in the Triggers & Scripts for help on fixing triggers and JASS/Spells/AI.
If we could open everyone's maps, then those two forums I mentioned above would be little relevant. The creators like to have their maps secured, and we should respect them. Since we want to respect both the map makers and the people who want to learn, we create forums like those on sites such as the Hive Workshop.

And excuse my horrible grammar, I didn't know Las Vegas was high-quality-english strict now. Either way, that does not apply here, so please do not bug the grammar.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Learning from examples is mostly bad. Really. If everyone learned JASS as I did (ie: messing around, making stuff, building up, etc.), you'd have far more competant JASSers. Instant-gratification in terms of stuff like that leads to an inability to debug and a lack of understanding of what is going on.

As it is, almost none of the JASSers you have here really understand anything, and those that do are largely WC3C educated, directly or indirectly; the general attitude of looking at examples, coupled with the vast majority of examples being bad (and often outdated even when it was originally good) means massive degredation in quality.

Your assertion, "If we could open everyone's maps, then those two forums I mentioned above would be little relevant." is, as such, totally wrong, and indicitive of the attitude that causes these problems.

Anyway, given that you HAVE no good JASSers to worry about them learning to protect stuff (those that are good already know how), and given that I don't see any competant JASSers coming around...more protection can only be a good thing. There are plenty of examples in released systems and stuff, and they are designed for public consumption (which, in the case of good coders at least, means not haxed and crap but working, unlike Warlords's internal code).

 

[Serbianbeast]

Well, some people, like me, have maybe spent year or more of their life creating some map, and left it not protected, allowing others to "learn" from it. All of a sudden I see a whole pile of maps using my triggers, my systems, or even my whole trigger setup as their own, without even asking me or giving credits. How cool is that? Therefor all my subsequent projects will be protected, and I encourage all serious map makers to do the same. As for the learning stuff, well ask questions on forums or do it your own way. I for example have only learned from Azure Tower Defense, and what I learned were the basics like: what are the events, conditions and actions. Everything else I have figured out by myself or by asking here.

Oh and... to hell with grammar, all that matters is your point.

 

[Hakeem]

The best way to learn what a function does it to look at a working example.
Most languages don't have a DoItAllInOneLine() function, but instead, require multiple lines in order to get the desired result.
The CreateUnit function in JASS does put your unit on the map, but more often a language will require you to create something, set some properties on it, then display it.

Working examples are the best way to learn what a function does, and learning what another programmers functions do is the most important part of learning any language.

 

[Rui]

As it is, almost none of the JASSers you have here really understand anything, and those that do are largely WC3C educated, directly or indirectly; the general attitude of looking at examples, coupled with the vast majority of examples being bad (and often outdated even when it was originally good) means massive degredation in quality.

Your assertion, "If we could open everyone's maps, then those two forums I mentioned above would be little relevant." is, as such, totally wrong, and indicitive of the attitude that causes these problems.

I believe GUI is often understandable.
As for JASS, I have only recently been placed in charge of it and this goddamned Internet won't work on my computer, so I wouldn't be able to tell for sure.

 

[Earth-Fury]

The best way to learn what a function does it to look at a working example.
Most languages don't have a DoItAllInOneLine() function, but instead, require multiple lines in order to get the desired result.
The CreateUnit function in JASS does put your unit on the map, but more often a language will require you to create something, set some properties on it, then display it.

Working examples are the best way to learn what a function does, and learning what another programmers functions do is the most important part of learning any language.

Being able to go read a book, or look at some example code from a tutorial is far different from being able to trawl the map database looking for anyone who has solved close to the exact problem you have. The latter is what most people do, given the ability to and some encouragement to "Go look at examples". People need to learn problem solving, not learn how to fit a bunch of other people's solutions together. (Of course, such a skill is itself a form of problem solving. However, given the relative simplicity of the problems encountered in map making, any positivity from such a skill is completely lost.)

 

[Serbianbeast]

Being able to go read a book, or look at some example code from a tutorial is far different from being able to trawl the map database looking for anyone who has solved close to the exact problem you have. The latter is what most people do, given the ability to and some encouragement to "Go look at examples". People need to learn problem solving, not learn how to fit a bunch of other people's solutions together. (Of course, such a skill is itself a form of problem solving. However, given the relative simplicity of the problems encountered in map making, any positivity from such a skill is completely lost.)

I totally agree with you.

 

[Screaming_flame]

Fist of all, If protected, You lose Open information, how people can Edit for you., and People Can't see whats and How does it work.

But if not protected, People will steal information and such.... People who Claims the maps... does not know how to fix it as their own. Who knows, that Bugs and glitches from the Original might not be fixed By the Newer, Pirated version. But Who cares its just text and infos. Some examples Will be those Anime Arenas.... I don't want protecting, Its just Messes and can Put a Virus on Mines....

 

[Captain Griffen]

I like the way no proper JASSers have spoken out against supporting protection.

EF's post is pretty much spot on, btw.

Fist of all, If protected, You lose Open information, how people can Edit for you., and People Can't see whats and How does it work.

But if not protected, People will steal information and such.... People who Claims the maps... does not know how to fix it as their own. Who knows, that Bugs and glitches from the Original might not be fixed By the Newer, Pirated version. But Who cares its just text and infos. Some examples Will be those Anime Arenas.... I don't want protecting, Its just Messes and can Put a Virus on Mines....

First, wtf is up with your capitalisation?

Second, you cannot put a virus in a WC3 map. Well, technically I guess a virus could be in a file pretending to be a map, but you'd need to run the map as an executeable file, rather than from WC3, and that'd require you to be utterly retarded.

 

[Serbianbeast]

Second, you cannot put a virus in a WC3 map.

You shouldn't put your life on that one...

 

[HappyTauren]

Dude, he knows what he is talking about, probably ten thousand times better than you. You can put anything you fucking want into a wc3 map, but you cannot execute it...

 

[Captain Griffen]

You shouldn't put your life on that one...

Code never executes by itself. It must be called by something (with the exception of your motherboard's first booting bootstrap, but that's hardware level). WC3 compiles the stuff in the map, and then runs it in a VM (the game itself). It cannot access anything outside of it. Well, you could if you had a DLL injection or some other hack running, but that'd require you to run a different exe for the game.