Struggle for Azeroth

[Ujimasa Hojo]

Also the arcane sanctum model for the bloodelves is the only one that I'm missing from that set, where did you find it?

It's a placeholder I made. Still waiting for SinisterX to finish his.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Dragon Riders don't become Unholy after the fel upgrade.
Dark Knight's aura tooltips still read ranged damage.


Whatever you did to the AI, it worked. Even when they box themselves in they're a better fight than the standard game's AI.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Few problems:

* Nearly all the factions can get all four heroes:
** Western Horde seems to be the exception.
** Dark Horde gets four if they don't get the knight (who's tooltip reads Revive Summon Knight) last.
** Burning Legion is likewise limited to three if the keep the Wraith lord for last.
* Some can get two heroes for T1 town hall and the other two on T2 (East alliance), some are 2/1/1 (West Alliance) or 1/1/2 (Naga, Dark Horde).

(Personally, I like having four heroes, so I suggest having all factions have them. Maybe you could use a four-tier system like the BL has.)

* If told to follow a unit, the Blood Elf mana wagon occasionally stops (also, you should have the ability set to autocast by default).

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

Few problems:

* Nearly all the factions can get all four heroes:
** Western Horde seems to be the exception.
** Dark Horde gets four if they don't get the knight (who's tooltip reads Revive Summon Knight) last.
** Burning Legion is likewise limited to three if the keep the Wraith lord for last.
* Some can get two heroes for T1 town hall and the other two on T2 (East alliance), some are 2/1/1 (West Alliance) or 1/1/2 (Naga, Dark Horde).

Forgot the Heroes in the Gameplay Constant Section but I fixed it now. It is isolated for this map.

 

[Dashut]

This map is a nice map i need more like example: Cftp: Amani fortress i want a new map

 

[cleavinghammer]

Aw man, it's fixed now.

Jujumancer's tooltip still has Shadow Hunter spells.

The Burning Legion vault doesn't sell scrolls if you go past Halls of the Dead.

 

[Chen]

The first of your map that I downloaded! 5/5

 

[Chen]

I laughed at the name Jujumancer!

 

[Chen]

Your maps are very great! When will you make other types of maps that is no altered melee, Can you create a campaign?

 

[cleavinghammer]

Just noticed that two orc heroes (Blademaster and Grand Marshal) have the same name (Reginald Windsor). Haven't run across it in the other 7Ks, but it might be there as well (I only noticed because they happened to be two Reginalds at the same time).

 

[Gx_Requiem]

Dreadlord (melee), tomed AGI to OP levels with some artifacts like the lifesteal one can enable him to carry the entire game.

 

[I_Am_The_Prophet]

Well I Like Eastern Horde Much Better

 

[VeljkoM]

Ok so lets try to give little more detailed examination of this map series besides saying its good. Yes it has lots of imports and they are looking good (but several units could really use size change because some are way to big then they should be like Burning legion caster or Ogre Magi), but what about actual gameplay? Remove the surface and honestly I don't see "new" races, I see improved or altered. I'll now try to sum up my opinions for the new races only the Eastern Horde, Dark Horde, Burning Legion and Old Gods minions. Also I won't review heroes as I feel those are good or just copies of Blizzard Heroes.

Eastern Horde

Eastern Horde

Intro:These guys are altered humans but luckily they are different enough not to be outright clones. These guys represent blood elves with very few forsaken units (3 units and a hero are forsaken everything else is Bloody).

Features:
-Defensive mechanics are same as humans. You have Call to Arms, you have cheep spamable farms and same tower system. Regarding buildings its again same as humans. The only difference is that Improved masonry adds an extra ability of building regeneration (aka Free repair that doesn't make you interrupt workers) which seems like an overkill as they already get increased HP, Armor.

-Economy is human nothing new here.

-Buildings are same as Human even in names. The only difference is that lumber mill and blacksmith are merged. For some reason lumber building requires lumber to be made which makes me think it is based of Night Elven Hunter's Hall. Lumber buildings aren't supposed require lumber it kills the point.

Units:
-Barracks:

*Swordsman - Improved footman really. Gets new ability that gives him ability based of searing arrows. I usually don't like when tier 1 melee units have two abilities but in this case it feels like improvement since footman were the only unit not to have tier 2 stat upgrade.

*Archer - Its Night Elf archer with removed features. What she is missing is Elune's Grace and mount hippogryph. Same stats, same range and attack upgrade. But reason why I dislike this unit is next unit in barracks which is...

*Deathstalker - This is tier 2 ranged unit, something not seen in classical blizzard setup. This unit is what you should make and never even look at archers. Sure the attack will be lower once archers get marksmanship but what makes Deathstalkers better is that they are Wardens that you can spam. Yes this is actually demi-hero. They get blink and slow poison for free and two upgrades (tier 3) for Fan of Knives and Shadow Strike. All you need to do is spam these girls, upgrade Fan of Knives and then spam F. This probably reason why no unit in any blizzard race has AoE because units can be spammed and Heroes can't. The reasons why these units don't make Blood Elves overpowered is total lack of tier 3 melee unit and they aren't exactly durable. They come in amazing price of 195 gold and 20 wood and 3 food, its a bargain.

- Arcane Sanctum

*Sorcerers - Its human unit we all know. The difference is 4th spell the blizzard. Look at deathstalker at my opinion regarding giving AoE hero abilities to spamable cheep units.

*Priest - Yep its human unit. Added Holy Light though statistically it is still better to use heal. Holy Light 65 mana for instant 200 hp (or 100 damage to unholy) vs 65 mana for overtime 325 hp.

*Spellbreaker - Yes, yes it is human unit. What's new is defend, why does he have defend when he already gets medium armor that reduces pierce damage. My guess is to use cool defend icon that blizzard scarped.

- Workshop

*Ballista - For a change not human unit and instead its RoC Ballista. So basically its night elf siege unit with same upgrade to attack trees but what makes this unit unnecessary is next unit.

*Catapult - Its Meatwagon without corpses and my guess Ice Troll catapult model. You get this unit at same time as ballista and they have same role of long ranged siege. Difference is that Catapult is stronger and cost isn't really that different. Just 10 extra gold, 15 less wood and 1 extra food. And of course the plague cloud is much better then impale (I have my doubts that this ability even works in melee).

*Mana Wagon - A refreshing unique unit. It is mobile Moon Well that replenishes mana to single unit (not HP though), it also comes with moon well upgrade of for mana regenration increase and mana limit increase. I am unsure should it really need heavy armor and cost does seem high for unit that can't do anything else besides mana but guess it is for balance reasons. With this unit your Hero becomes much more scarier. I wouldn't really suggest using this unit to replenish regular units.

*Golden Eagle - Well seems all units have now Flying transport so nothing else to say. I personally dislike the model but tastes is subjective anyway.

-Dragonhawk Aviary

*Sky Guard - Do I even need to say this is regular dragonhawk?

*Dragonhawk Rider - My guess is this unit is based of Hippogryph Rider. But problem is this is quite expensive unit that has really low attack. Now i wouldn't mind if race has unit like this but we already have Dragonhawk for the light-air unit. On the plus side you get this unit at tier 2 (actually now that I think of it there is no tier 3 only unit just upgrades for old). They also come with Ice Arrows but since Deathstalkers come with poison that doesn't need an upgrade you don't really need to buy this. Also good news is they get HP upgrade so at least they can be used as air targets.

Conclusion: This is fragile race but the castle upgrade abilities are probably what stops other 7 races from dominating completely. I personally would remove Ballista, boost attack of Dragonhak Raider and place it in tier 3 and probably get another Melee unit at least as tank role and probably would remove at least one ability from Deathstalker. This race would be excellent if you would change all those similarities to human race. Heck maybe would be nice to see more of Forsaken? Like Valkyrie air caster?

Dark Horde

Dark Horde

Intro: We all know modern Horde, we all know fell horde. I personally like to forget the Dark Horde because of their gray skin but besides that they are the last remnant of the cool warcraft 2 orcs. These guys are based of blizzard orc race so expect a lot of unchanged elements.

Features:
Defense same as orcs, buildings same as orcs with exception 1 exception and economy well same pillage. But there is one new special thing I will discuss last.

Units:
-Barracks:
*Grunt - It's a grunt, you saw this guy for the past 3 games and as guard in wow.
*Axethrower - Well statically it is Spearthrower. Even same upgrades except it gets one new one, cannibalism. Now the thing is trolls allready get increased regeneration so why would they get another health restoring ability is mystery to me. Ok besides because lore says so.
*Ogre - Well statistically it is tauren but luckly he gets two passive upgrades that make the difference obvious. You get the Bash and mountain giants damage reduction (this ability is the more dangerous of the two). Now I admit this can be slightly problematic because traditionally tier 3 melee units have just 1 ability. And no Mountain Giant is not night elf equivalent of Taurens, Knights and Abominations, he is extremely expensive (more then even hero) and serves as tank or siege and doesn't replace Claw Druids.

-Spirit Lodge

*Warlock - Well it is campaign warlock. Unlike any other clone unit this bugs me more as even in campaign it was unimaginative. This is Necromancer with stormbolt instead of raise dead. I don't think support units should have direct damage spells and would be better if he would get an Auto cast instead. Actually all 3 casters lack autocast.

*Shadow priest - I like this guy. He gets Snake Ward, AoE heal and ability to kill himself and take enemy unit with him. Just problem is AoE Heal heals 4 units for 215 health and that is an overkill. If you are going to use hero abilities nerf them first.

*Magi Ogre - It has been long tradition for Magi Ogres to have bloodlust but here tradition ended. Instead he gets forked lightning which is direct damage for multiple units and as caster his role should be to support or curse enemy units and not directly damage them that's why you have barrack units. Then he gets 2 anti magic oriented abilities which are needed though might be boring looking. And He has mana shield as 4th ability, most likely because he is based of Spirit breaker who also gets 4 abilities. Statistics of both units support my claim I believe. He could also use a little size reduction as he is way to big.

-Bestiary

*Raider - It orc Raider you know he rest.

*War Turtle - I am unsure what to think of this unit. I guess it is supposed to be tank unit but considering we are dealing with orcs all their front-line units are tough to kill anyway. He gets Anti-air attacks but you have raiders to net Air units and that makes them ground units. I guess because Dark Horde just lacks flying light unit they needed some extra AA power.

*Dragon Rider - Remember wyvern?

-Laboratory
*Goblin sappers - well same as previously neutral units. I am sure now Dark Horde players will have fun using them.

*Steam Tank - I honestly can say I didn't expect this unit. With so many imports and details put in to look of all races I didn't expect dwarven tank here. It is human RoC Siege tank with Bat Riders burning liquid. Honestly I think it is shame to sacrifice long-ranged siege unit for unit that is melee and attacks buildings only. Dark Horde thus lacks the long ranged caster killing unit like other races have (Hey it is fun to use units with 100 siege damage on armorless casters)

*Goblin Zeppelin - mandatory flying transport, probably has best model of all new guys.

Special Mention:
There is one unique thing that Dark Horde gets. Its the Fel Orc upgrade. It gives chaos attack to Grunts, Riders, Warlocks and Dragon riders. But I have a problem with this. You get this ability for high cost at tier 3 at which time you should be using Ogres and Dragon Riders mostly and you shouldn't be using Grunts and Riders and you shouldn't even be using Warlocks as ranged damage dealers in the first place. And your units no longer counter enemy armors for bonus damage and instead it is always same. I honestly think if you have money to get this upgrade chances are you have allready won anyway.

Conclusion: Well Dark Horde is out of all 4 new races closest to blizzard standard. They only lack at least 1 more light air unit and that's it. I do wish we could see some changes for casters, perhaps removal of one troll health regeneration upgrade and this is my personal opinion but I think that turtle would be much more cool as Flamethrower unit since gun on its back looks like it would fit that better though this is more cool then useful.

Burning Legion

Burning Legion

Info: I find this race least interesting. I could understand why Blood Elves and Dark Horde would retain similarities to their original races but here it shouldn't have been the case. My guess is you used to many imports or because they use undead AI and any real change would ruin it.

Features: Well as expected all features are same as undead. I will at least compliment Fel Guards lumber animation.

Units:
*Acolyte - Ok I just had to mention that this guys skin is too colorful. Most likely it is just me but it really is sticking out. Also you could have at least rename him to cultist.

-Barracks (again barracks?)
*Fel Guard - Ghoul without cannibalism and perhaps slightly oversized model.
* Vile Temptress - Well it is combination of Crypt Fiend and Gargoyle. Tooltip still says that she attacks just ground units but like Deathstalker this isn't true. My guess is because she can fly she has unarmed armor and luckily gets evasion to compensate but her flying mode retains her ground ranged attack and thus makes her more stronger then most early flying units.

-Temple of the Damned
*Diabloist - Caster on steroids (no really he has high health and really big model), probably because he is the only caster you get. First ability is same as necromancer and you even get same upgrades to improve it but the other two are Death Coil to heal and what must be very useful Reanimation of 2 units. I am little surprised he gets death coil as first upgrade while Blood Elf priest need 3 upgrades for holy light. And also path of frost? Yea I guess that's for naval maps though demon with burning hooves with ice feet is strange.

-Workhouse
*Infernal Cannon - Unholy spawn of Meat Wagon and Orcish destroyer, made to ruin somebodies day. By that I mean he carries corpses and has burning oil. Unsure why would you use version with cartoonish diablo as I can't take it seriously.

*Shredder - I was caught unprepared by this unit. My guess is this is supposed to be tier 3 unit that replaces abomination (though stats as usual are same). At least it is creative hybrid unit oh heavy melee and huntress.

*Gunship - Well I am almost sure this is supposed to be heavy air unit. It doesn't have impressive pierce attack nor health but what saves this unit is upgrade to attack more then one unit. I am just not sure how many units exactly it effects to me it seems it hurts 2 units in line or is small splash. Also this unit suffers from no air attack handicap. It isn't really impressive unit but at least it isn't clone.

-Dimenional portal
*Overlord - What? Um I mean "standard" air transport?
*Hydralisk - Ok this must be a joke. Anyway this is tier 3 ranged unit, something not seen often. I guess this mother of all ranged units because just look at that power why even train anything besides these guys? Maybe add Shredders on front and that's it. With this unit you have no need for Vile temptress (ground or fly) and Gunship. The straight out of starcraft 2 upgrades make sure that this unit stays on top of the food chain.

Conclusion: This is my least favorite race you made. There is shortage of units, mostly casters and I hope you remove corpse resurrection system and instead make some demon summoning features instead. You know put Demonic attribute in to demon race and necromantic. There isn't anything that makes this race feel to me like Demons. These are not demonic legions, these guys are undead sci fi aliens. Special mention goes to zerg who feel more like easter egg then part of the race. Personally I think Old Gods are more like zerg like anyway (they have the organic fetish).

Old God Minions

Old God Minions

Intro: Well when first I saw the name I told myself "Yes! Faceless race!". My expectations were not fulfilled and instead I got naga who are great too. Now this race unlike previous 3 suffers least from the cloning, mostly because naga units don't appear in melee and thus are unique in their own way.

Features: Well gold mine is like night elven while wood is +20 like campaign naga, you might want to reduce that to standard 10. Main building I have noticed has high attack even at tier 1, undead used to have similar system but patches reduced damage drastically and added freeze guess they thought it was unfair advantage or something. Corals are Moonwells, even same tooltip. Also I didn't look much at shops but Naga still use same as night elven shop just no lunar stone.

Units:
-Barracks (yet another one?):

*Reaver - Well this is same as naga regular tier 1 melee but he stole ensnare from myrmidon. Honestly it is better that way. But I have noticed he still costs 120 gold even though Reavers have attack as grunt and health isn't too low either.

*Trickster - I guess I am out of date regarding warcraft lore but i was sure satyrs are Legion Followers not Old Gods. But anyway this guy is like neutral unit Trickster just without purge he gets abolish magic. Little odd if you ask me to give to early unit ability like that but there is anyway better unit at tier 2 so why even make these guys. I do love the irony that they cost more then Deathstalkers yet aren't even close to their usefulness.

*Myrmidon - Unchanged really except he got critical strike that deals 100 extra damage. Sounds really high but I guess offset by really low chance of it happening.

-Shrine of Azshara

*Siren - Well same unit as naga campaign one just instead of cyclone she gets sleep, more fitting to her mythology.

*Druid of The Flame - Ok disregarding my feelings for lore regarding to this abomination, I think someone forgot to say to this guy that he is support caster. Incinerate can work on caster I guess but it get less logical when you see that you have Fire Lord hero. Flamestrike well I am sure I have said it several times already what I think about units using hero AoE abilities and about casters using direct damage. And also hawk form which is just copy of night elf unit, though I never understood point of air only magic attacking bird.

*Obsidian Statue/ Destroyer - He came here because Old Gods hijacked him in WoW lore. Still same unit.

-Spawning grounds

*Snapdragon - your real ranged unit. Cheeper then Trickster and doesn't ned upgrade to use his trademark and much more useful poison. The only regret he is tier 2 for some reason. I would rather expect Trickster to be tier 2 anti-caster unit like dryad and snap dragon to be tier 1 main ranged unit.

*Dragon Turtle - This unit lacks purpose until he gets upgrades. Then he is medium ranged siege unit and tank. Though 4 abilities do look crowded so does he really need spiked shell and turtle shell?

-Arcane Roost (Name could use work)

*Coutal - Why would you do this? I know all races need transport unit but they need light air units too. Would be better then burning bird.

*Water Dragon - Frost Wyrm with a twist. Same flying death machine with goal to destroy and freeze the world but now with new phasing feature. So it is improved ultimate unit, that can't be balanced. I mean out 4 races only naga get real heavy flyer unit.

Conclusion: Well this race for me is naga with friends, there isn't really old god feel. It is personal but for me Old God real minions are faceless. But anyway this race has advantage of all your races as it is the only one that is based of something not seen in melee. I personally would probably return snapdragon to his ranged unit role and make satyr caster or anti caster in Azshara Shrine, and for spawning grounds maybe get a hydra unit and place couatle there and leave water Dragon alone in his ultimate building (like boneyard, tauren totem and chimera roost are).

And that concludes my opinion. It is a bit personal so some of it is probably wrong but I think you deserved much more information from commentator besides saying "it is good". If you don't agree with my opinions (and you probably aren't going to), just remember it is your map and I don't have right to demand anything nor should i expect my suggestions to be considered. As I said I really thought this map series needed more informative comments.

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

One of my main problems is the lack of models, which is why the Eastern Horde is dominated by Blood Elves instead of the Forsaken, why Old God Minions are Naga with a cameo of Satyrs (Xavius serves an Old God now), Neferset Tol'Vir, Druids of the Flame, and an Elemental (Fire Lord), and why the Burning Legion has joke Zerg units within their ranks. As you can see, I'm already close to the 8MB limit which is why I can't add more models which could have been used for better unit representation.

As for the new factions being clones, I understand what you're saying. The problem is that I'm limited to replicating only certain abilities. I avoided replicating abilities with buffs because they cause stacking problems with the original ability. I didn't use custom abilities yet though I do consider them. The problems are that custom abilities could take up a lot of size and have leaks and that the AI can't use them properly.

 

[VeljkoM]

Yes that certainly explains some things. And I do know how problematic Warcraft AI is, probably not good as you but AI is certainly mood killer. Still regarding burning legion you did leave out Infernal, Doomguard, Fel Hound, Inferno Cannons (both versions), Void Walkers so there are choices besides importing. Sure they are overused but they do fit more then Shredder, Overlord and Hydralisk (and aren't two of those imports?). And a lot of if not all units use same statistics of units they are based of and that's what makes more factions feel like clones. I am not really suggesting full triggers or more imports just more variation in good old Object Editor (well example I missed is Naga Altar still uses 100 wood when all other altars are 50).

Though regarding imports well you could cut out some that are improved versions like Zeppelin and Obsidian Destroyer? Maybe could consider removing flying transports but somehow I doubt that's an option. I don't know just remember its not models that make interesting faction its the gameplay.

 

[Golden Dragon]

little question.......can't you add just demons and inferor (or whatever can you spell it) to burning legion?...what would be awesome and make game hard....i like to battle them with my large army

 

[DarcReaver]

Nice

 

[arditerzan]

Nice map I love it

 

[Sunreaver]

Hello Ujiamasa Burning Legion race are suppose to be using chaos and fiery spells not necromancy please change that also why can raise felguard and succubi shoul be summoned also Jujumancer can be Amani High Priest or Amani Shadow Priest

 

[Renly Baratheon]

Could use some Worgen Creeps.

 

[Renly Baratheon]

It would be better if you had added Alterac Valley somewhere.

 

[Ardenaso]

I miss those times when you could choose two paths for each race and each of them have a nice flavor and twists. Anyway, good Altered Melee

 

[The Doctor]

Help

I tried to play this map in Local Area Network and it said the file size was to big Please help!

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

I tried to play this map in Local Area Network and it said the file size was to big Please help!

Please update your Warcraft 3 to the latest patch. Earlier patches can only play 4MB maps on LAN.

 

[The Doctor]

Log created at 8:19 am on 04/16/2014

Registry error loading key 'Patch\Patches'
The system cannot find the file specified.


WARNING: couldn't delete registry key
The system cannot find the file specified.

WARNING: couldn't delete registry key
The system cannot find the file specified.

RESULT: Patch failed

??? Help!

 

[The Doctor]

Never mind. Fixed

 

[Moderator]

12:29, 20th May 2014
Orcnet: Map approved

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

AI Players are able to create shipyards and ships but can't hop unto new islands pretty well.

 

[Footman16]

Hey Uljimasa I think I preferred the race overview when you had all the units lined up, it made it easier to see them all.

 

[Hardtime]

Hey how do I set the race of a computer player? Do they just generate randomly?

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

Hey how do I set the race of a computer player? Do they just generate randomly?

Yes and no. A Human computer player will randomly choose between Human or Blood Elf. An Orc computer player randomly choose between New Horde or Dark/Fel Horde. An Undead computer player will randomly choose between Demon or Undead. No AI for Naga yet so Night Elf computer players remain as is.

 

[NelsonLaJe]

I see that since you started working in AI, they have improved a lot. that's pretty cool xD

 

[Heinvers]

Awesome looking map

 

[Orcnet]

Map approved.

 

[Jevan Grimtotem]

I really love you maps especially the SFA maps but maybe you should put a hero glow on the Dark Knight hero of the Dark Horde so it would look like a hero than a unit and maybe you should change the skin of the Blademaster into gray so it would look like "Blackrock-y" and the Ultralisks and the Overlords does'nt looks fitting to the Burning Legion

 

[Darko_Darkking]

Could you fix the Lich's score-screen? Because it was green in the scorescreen

 

[illidan013]

u should update

 

[illidan013]

the description

 

[Ardenaso]

And I miss those times like 2 years ago when every SFA was dynamic/not boring like Alliance going Worgen.

 

[Rufus]

Great map!
Well-made, and a lot of fun! I picked the archer with multishot and invested in tomes, granting me over 400 agility in the end, at wich point it was no challenge anymore

However, I'm no fan of the boundary laying on top of the walls. I get why they are there, but they are not very stylish. Anyway 5/5 map man! +rep

 

[Yrk]

Yehey , Illidari

 

[NelsonLaJe]

I found interesting the idea of the Illidari even faction of the time be Iron Horde
But coming back, you could put Blood Elf Priest the Illidari
and add a build to deploy some more Broken Draenei
Anyway, I liked the map of faction is AMAZIND
just a question, why are mag'har orcs before turning Fel Orcs?
even where know Illidan seized Mag'har orcs and turned into Fel orcs, or is it just a way to balance the game?

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

Can't play multiplayer at all

What do you mean? Elaborate.

The Race Is not unique

It's a joke race after all.

just a question, why are mag'har orcs before turning Fel Orcs?
even where know Illidan seized Mag'har orcs and turned into Fel orcs, or is it just a way to balance the game?

Mostly balancing purposes.

 

[Sunreaver]

Sorry my computer has a few issues, it work fine now.
Ok but why don't u change the description train maghar orcs instead of fel

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

Ok but why don't u change the description train maghar orcs instead of fel

Done.

 

[Dreadwing]

After this there must be :
- Christmas special
- Mother day special
- Holidays special
- Ujimasa Hojo's Birthday special
- and More

 

[Darko_Darkking]

Or maybe new map... quite bored there are no new race that have AI here...

 

[Cherrymage]

Why Illidari units cannot regenerate faster unless near the Black Temple? Other than that, its nice race. Why didn't you put Illidari into other maps?

 

[Fro]

can i give you some suggestion?
you should add admiral heroes in eastern alliance.

 

[Velrog]

There used to be a few more maps from the SfA series. Can anyone tell me why they've been removed and if they'll ever be brought back?