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[Hero Arena] Strife of the Honorless

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by Eriador, Nov 22, 2014.

  1. Eriador

    Eriador

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    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    After living a brave and violent live, a warrior should find his eternal glory in the battlefields
    of the Valhalla. Yet sometimes they are denied and their restless spirits will have to wander
    the empty planes for all eternity. Unless... your restless spirit just walk up to the valhalla and
    slaughter them like there is no tomorrow. Because... who really needs a good story?

    Strife of the Honorless is a hero survival map. You will fight progressivly harder randomly
    generated monster waves, random bosses and superbosses.
    A lot of the focus while desigining this map has gone towards creating heroes that have an
    interesting and unique skillsets, so you can expect triggered abilities, that scale with attributes
    and synergises to become a usefull skillset. There are over 150 items, with plenty of unique
    and triggered effects that can drop, be combined with recipes or bought. Pauzes after every
    5th wave make sure that you can figure out the game or choose which items you want to
    buy/keep at your own pace. The strength of the wave, the drop rates, the strength and health
    of monsters and enemy heroes are all depenent on the selected difficulty and number of
    players.

    Tips:
    • This is not just a game of offence, don't neglect your Endurance even when you are a
      Magic Power or Swiftness hero.
    • When things get tough, instant healing is available at the shop. Don't be to greedy about
      it.
    • When things are getting even more tough, you can rent a Mammoth (tank) or Siren
      (caster) in the warehouse under blessings and powerups.
    • The Item Forge in the west creates some of the most powerful items in the game that
      never drop. Check out the requirements of these powerful items and start collecting those.
    • Combining and upgrading the Soulstones may seem tedious, but it's easy when you are
      used to it. Generaly you just want one stone, so when you have collected enough
      Soulshards, just put your stone on the forge and click the upgrade button.
    • When playing in a group, if most of your group is wiped out, you can ressurect them
      with the ressurection blessing in the warehouse. When all players are dead you lose.
    • When playing in a group, use heroes with different primary stats, so you fill different
      roles and can make the best use of the items that drop.



    [​IMG]
    • Eight unique heroes with triggered spells.
    • Progressively powerful random item and gold drops.
    • Unique items, with a unique look and (triggered) abilities.
    • Cooldown reduction system.
    • Randomized monster spawnings, with normal and lieutenant monsters and bosses.
    • Shop system with different 'tabs', item recipes, socketed items and combinable gems.
    • Multiple game difficulties
    • Playable for 1 - 8 players
    • Custom attribute system. All damage skills scale on these custom attributes.
    • Reviving after every wave if at least one of the players survive.
    • QWER Skill hotkeys



    [​IMG]
    Screenshots

    I will add a bunch of legitimate screenshots soon.
    1rp025l.jpg qyiacmh.jpg



    [​IMG]
    Credits

    Extensive testing
    Donderbus
    Kino


    Spells and scripts:
    Paladon
    Weep


    Screen Layout:
    Spellbound

    Icons:
    Donderbus
    NFWar
    PeeKay
    Pyramidhe@d
    CRAZYRUSSIAN
    sigelang
    -BerZeKeR-
    Skypsi
    Stanley
    darkdeathknight
    Static
    JollyD
    wuddle
    I3lackDeath
    Mad
    stonneash
    Ezikielth
    Anachron

     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
  2. Kino

    Kino

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    Ill give you a more in-depth look soon.

    In the mean time.
    - The coloured text on higher tier items is dark to the point of being unreadable.
    - Items (within their individual categories) don't seem to be arranged in any logical way, the high tier/most expensive items do not necessarily come last etc.
    - Way, way too long to level, 8 waves until you get excess to more than 1 ability.
    - The first skill of the Tauren Hero has a passive learn icon.

    - Is there a reason why potions are used on buying?
    - Is there a reason why we have to type hero names to pick them?
     
  3. Eriador

    Eriador

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    Hi,

    Thank you very much for taking a look!

    In regard to your feedback:

    Thank you, I am going to change that, to make it more clear.

    You are referring to how it is categorized in the shop? They are sorta catagorised between theme (robes, etc) but if it's not clear, I will think about how to improve it.

    Yea... it does take about 2,5 hours to finish up till lvl 60. And the experience curve starts slow...

    I will change that.

    I thought it was convenient, this way you could have 6 items in your inventory, and still quickly grab a potion from the shop. What do you think of it?

    The reason is me finding no suitable alternative to it. Do you have a suggestion (guide to look at or whatever) for a better champion selection?
     
  4. Kino

    Kino

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    I am referring to how the items within each category (weapons. armour etc.) are arranged.
    It seems more logical to arrange them in rarity/price.

    I have no problem with the map taking a long play session to complete. However it does bother me that it takes 8-9 waves to get access to more than 1 button.

    Why?
    Because for all those 8 waves I (as the Tauren) simply walked into the whole mob and pressed W once per wave.
    Didn't need to adapt my strategy or approach things differently.
    Those 8 waves could have been composed of the same monster and I wouldn't have noticed.

    Personally dislike it.
    However that doesn't mean you should change it.
    You are the creator of the map, and as long as you have a valid reason for it being there, it doesn't really bother me.

    I guess you could "theme" it better by calling blessing of healing/mana as to avoid the connotation of potions being a "consume as you please" item.

    How is one supposed to know if name refers to the hero's proper name or class name?

    It seems more straight forward to use a "2x click to select" or "send a wisp in the circle of power" method.
    You can open up the Warchasers or ExtremeCandyWar to see a bare bones version of how to do it.
     
  5. Eriador

    Eriador

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    Updated the map with your feedback in it. You now choose your hero by 2x click, visibility of the tooltips is improved, shop is rearranged, etc.
     
  6. Kino

    Kino

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    Final Thoughts

    Minor
    - Name is uninteresting, searching for a map simply called "heroes" in your map list is a pain.
    - (Unsure) Monster exp seems to be uneven, getting to level 2 can take anywhere from 5 - 8 waves.
    - You cannot walk up to portals to kill monsters that have pathing errors, if I had been using a melee hero the game would have just broken there.

    Major
    The general vibe im getting is that the game is slow, real slow.
    Boringly slow, abuseably slow.

    I basically kept 1 weak enemy alive to wait out ult cooldowns before starting the next level because they were that long.

    You save up huge amounts of cash to buy boring stat upgrades, each one takes vastly more than the previous for minor bonuses. But you buy them anyway, because there's nothing interesting to spend on anyway.

    The game takes at least 30 or so waves for the game to get interesting, which by then you're so kitted out in items that the monsters stop being a threat
     
  7. Eriador

    Eriador

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    Once again, thank you very much for testing the map!
    Albeit admittedly, i might have hoped you would like it more :)

    I have a few questions regarding your feedback
    Regarding the pathing error, with which monster, or in response to which spell did that happen?

    Regarding the low cooldown ulti and slow gameplay, which champion did you play?
    In addition, some ulties are for emergency situations, not to be used in every wave. If in a multiplayer game you wouldn´t be forced to use it all the time, (because a healer, a tank and a damage dealer together would have synergy) and it might diversify the gameplay because there is the teamwork aspect. Would that increase the pace of the game?

    Another thought about the slow gameplay, I could put in minigames at lvl 10, 30 and 50, to break up the gameplay a little bit?

    One more idea is this regard, i could make the difficulty of the game in the first waves a bit harder, but give the players another skill point in return, you would have more to play with.
    The problem i might have with it, is that inexperienced players will have more to adapt to in the first waves.

    Or I could add a non-hero activatable skill with a short cooldown, you would have it from the start in addition to your hero skill point, which would scale into late game. Like a special attack, monster mana removal, small stun, etc, monsters difficulty could be increased accordingly.

    About the way to spend and not spend money:
    I could add (expensive) tomes of stats.
    Could make (additional/ more expensive) buffs.
    Add different, maybe more expensive hirelings (although i would probably choose that all cooldowns reset to not flood the arena.)
    Or do you suggest something completely different?

    Other question
    I have a total of 22 skill points and 30 levels. Especialy if i would choose that you get another skill point in the start, should I add more levels to the skill points?
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
  8. Kino

    Kino

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    Any ranged monster with large unit collision.
    Pretty much equals all the waves post 30 - 40.

    It doesn't happen because of spells.
    The passage from the portal simply isn't wide enough to accommodate the movement of a whole pack of large units, so they simply stall at the spawn point.

    I played the Ranger and Tauren Chief, the other heroes didn't seem to be useful in a solo/small team setup.

    Which seems nice in theory until you realise that you can wait out the cooldowns by kiting the last monster of each wave until its over.

    Im not really understanding what you're getting at here.

    Okay, the problem here is this.

    Its a cause and effect.
    > Because Getting enough actives to make the gameplay interesting takes forever.
    > Thus you have very limited means of actively influencing the combat
    > The combat is balanced around players doing a lot of nothing.
    > As a result, monsters all feel "more of the same" since they balanced around the above.


    The main gripe I have with this map, is that its full of features that seem to exist for the sake of "ticking a box".

    - "Players like items" > have items for the heck of it even if they're very uninteresting.
    - "The game is long" > therefore draw out the whole progression till it becomes painful.
    - "Game is boring" > add minigames to cover that.

    When I think of hero survival Id like to fight against monsters to survive, adding mini-games wont help if the core game is boring.


    You are ultimately the creator of the map, and I don't want to dictate what you should or should not do.
    However, these are the things in my opinion that you should note.
    Also, consider this an answer to the other points I have not responded to.

    The Map's Strength
    - Your objective is very fluid. There is no fixed "defend a castle" objective, you simply stay alive.
    - Random enemies, interesting in theory. Only makes a difference if having different monsters affects the gameplay in anyway.

    The Map's Weaknesses
    - Due to stay alive being the only objective, interesting combat = utmost priority. (Which currently it doesn't have.)
    - Progression is boring, items are boring. (eg. I would have loved to buy a flat damage item to augment my crit item. But there wasnt, my only option was to stack another of that top-end crit weapon.)

    Adding more features like tomes is a minor thing, disguising the very core issues I believe this map has wont change a thing.
     
  9. Eriador

    Eriador

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    Allright, it took me a lot of hours, but I have made a major and imo cool update.

    Changes:
    1. Created an extra mana free skill for each hero, with a short cooldown, that adds to the playstile of the hero.
    2. Created a skill that can sell items, so you don't have to sell everything in the shop. (Walking up and down the shop = no fun).
    3. Made the time between waves shorter. You don't need to walk up and down the shop anyways.
    4. Made a much more fun boss and interactive first boss wave.
    5. Redesigned the map layout, and worked a lot on the look.
    6. Reworked the experience curve. Allowing you to level up much quicker in the beginning of the game, while slower later on.

    I feel the game has become a lot more faster paced, and the skill skill ceiling has increased by the extra short cooldown skill.
    I would love to hear what you guys think.
     
  10. Kino

    Kino

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    A few things

    1. What is so sacred about your spawn portals that heroes are not allowed near them?
    2. Item variety expecially armour kinda still sucks.

    Atm, its not terrible.
    But at the same time, it doesn't feel very special or interesting as far as hero siege type maps go.

    I still think the map has one very generalised problem. Combat is all it has, (which is fine, it is a hero siege after all) but the combat isn't very good.
    Now this has nothing to do with how spammable your skills are or how many buttons you have to press (although it can help)

    Notice is how a melee map, there are plenty of factors that combat interesting even though you only using auto attack?
    Terrain shape - Height, space, layout etc.
    Vision - Fog, Doodads the block sight etc.

    There is some semblance of it in the new version (so kudos to you for that) but it still feels very much like slamming units against each other on a flat map waiting for the bigger stats to prevail.
    Actually, that last phrase is exactly how I would describe what I dislike about this map atm.

    It might sound like I really hate this map. But if I did, I wouldn't bother testing it.
    Your ability to create cool ability concepts definitely shows, so use that to your advantage.
     
  11. Fang

    Fang

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    Looks interesting good luck
     
  12. Eriador

    Eriador

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    So you managed to download it before i could put it offline :)
    When I noticed there still where some major bugs, I quickly removed the file.

    Those should now be removed.
    In addition, I have made more changes, like
    • Channeled ability for monsters that needs to be interrupted to prevent a painful lightning strike.
    • Charge ability for monsters and new buy-able summon.
    • Reworked some skills a bit.
    • Made the map in general easier.
    • Added more buy-able buffs.
    • Made free buffs spawn in random spots once in a while.
    • Made the whole map accassable and increased the spawning points
    • made monsters spawns more random.
    • Etc.

    I have put the file back online.

    Btw. I have taken your comments into consideration, so the items are also slightly more diverse with a few activated and triggered abilities added.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
  13. Eriador

    Eriador

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    I got the mapmaking spirit again, and I like where it is going. :)

    The map now got a custom attribute system and the attributes are now much more influencing the power of your skills.

    The items are changed again and with custom images for not only the unique but also the standard items. Also in stats and abilities the items are majorly changed again. making them much more interesting with a lot of actives and unique abilities. Most of them can be checked out in the shop straight away. Although there are also plenty of unique items that you just got to find accidentally.

    I changed the map difficulty again, it starts out pretty calm, but get's harder when you get deeper into the game. It is still a multiplayer map, but it can be played and finished single player on normal difficulty.

    All around the map is starting to feel more finished now.
    Hopefully you guys like it, but let me know what you think.
     
  14. Eriador

    Eriador

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    I figured I needed to improve on my opening post to get my map a little bit more into the picture :p

    So I have written information about the skills of three of the heroes and added some in game screenshots so you might get a little better idea of how this map looks.
    At the moment I am doing a multiplayer session on the map, I will try to make some screenshots of that, but for now you get the picture ^.^

    The map has hugely improved since I first uploaded it here, even to the point I don't know how to further improve it. So I would love to hear some user experiences and perhaps see some replays of it. Hopefully some can take the time for that.
     
  15. ukn0wnD3str0y3r

    ukn0wnD3str0y3r

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    Cool, i can help with something if you want :p, although im not a professional ._.
     
  16. Hell_Master

    Hell_Master

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    Upon looking on to maps here at the Develeopments Section, I've found this promising project and played it for a little while until Wave 15. I must say that it's pretty decent in its state given you are just starting on it but as for me, it needs some enjoyment factor. The gameplay is quite boring and it only requires you to stay still and kill countless creeps without much of a challenge (probably because I've only tried Normal difficulty) most likely when using the Primal Warrior which is a good tank and can absorb most damage with ease that makes it too easy for me on the game (can't say though for the next following waves beyond Wave 15). I would suggest adding some sort of bosses at some specific waves if there isn't yet. And when referring to bosses, it's not those who you just completely tank and hit for a long time then take it down. It should require some specific strategy which makes it worthy of its title as boss. Make it use skills that poses threat to the heroes and when killed, it would probably drop boss exclusive items from the boss that can help on your progress and strengthens your hero with decent stats and probably additional item skills. And also, make some waves different. Not just killing hordes of monsters but probably puzzles and such that needs to be accomplished by players, it adds up to the challenge, trust me!

    Moving on, you could also add much more variety of items into the game and probably a secret spot if you could still lend some in the map area where a secret shop can be found that sells items different from the Observatory on the middle of the map and probably stronger. Could also use some sort of Recipe System where you have to gather the required items to form a much stronger item. I think the Recipe System adds restriction on easily acquiring godly items and more effort from the player instead of just saving up gold.

    Your terrain which is another part of my review (you could say that it's a review, lol), is quite good but can be improved on some extent. I would suggest adding more doodads around such as blood (you can have a model of it here in the site by searching it on the Models Section as far as I know) which gives you a feeling that there's struggling in the terrain, magical effects which you can do by changing the models of a custom doodads to a Special effect that suits the terrain and etc. Feel free to search the site as well for resources on improving your terrain.

    Lastly, the heroes seems good enough to me with their spells that fits their role in the battlefield and of course, triggered but I would check for leaks if there are, can't say for I'm not an expert on the field of triggers and scripts. Their spells are also scaled with certain attributes which is good because it is sure that the skill grows as the hero grows making it much more meaningful to power up.

    Overall in its state, it's quite decent as I've said. Keep up on improving this one and eventually finishing this one. I hope to see this one on the Map Sections... soon.

    Good luck and be motivated on this one!
     
  17. Eriador

    Eriador

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    Ah thanks! it really encourages to get a in dept review.
    You also gave me a few pointers of what to focus on to further improve the map.
    I will keep on improving on the item system. Perhaps I should make a secondary rare recourse, that can be used for the highest tear items.

    Yeah sure, although I do not know what your area of expertise is. What kind of stuff do you like to make in such projects?
     
  18. Hell_Master

    Hell_Master

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    No problem, and yes, please do improve the item system
     
  19. ukn0wnD3str0y3r

    ukn0wnD3str0y3r

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    Hero/Item/Hero & Item Ideas/Spell/Suggestions =)
     
  20. Eriador

    Eriador

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    I'll send you a private message.