[SC2] - The very first Terraining contest -- Theme discussion -

[AIagremm]

Look at the bright side. If they make WCIV, graphics will be better then in SCII!

 

[Tleno]

Look at the bright side. If they make WCIV, graphics will be better then in SCII!

Good luck waiting for WC IV.

 

[Bugz]

Good luck waiting for WC IV.

hahaha, it will never come out :/..

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Imtor, 2-P is right. Graphic aren't all. Wc3 terrains are still far better then Starcrafts.

If you mean the ability to make shapes out of putting doodads on one another and just placing in the right place, yes I see amazing things done with wc3 terrain. But SC2 has that implemented as well, and it is a matter of skill. I haven't seen much showcases yet but anyone with the same skills to place objects would do much better terrain all thanks to the better graphics.

But examples:

Source

Source 2

Forest

Forest 2

Forest 3

Forest 4

Cave - DO WANT to enter the PC

Cave twilight

Waterfall

Forest Gate

Jungle Road

Jungle Path

Rapid

DO WANT Waterfall

Have you seen night/twilight/dawn landscapes? War3 could never make such night effects...

Night Base Air

Night Base

Night Base

If you've seen the WoL Tosh mission on Belshir where you have to gather Terrazine, the intro of the mission showed scenery that looked so much like Avatar's Pandora with floating islands and waterfalls, thanks to the white realistic water and greenness. And this is only the beginning of SC2 terraining as the game is still new.

 

[Oziris]

I like the forest, It looks like a nice playable terrain. The rest are meh. Still, they are not near the artistic terrain as Wacraft III is.

 

[fladdermasken]

Have you seen night/twilight/dawn landscapes? War3 could never make such night effects...

Wait, what? You mean perfectly ordinary lighting? I sure hope you're not trying to analyze this in contrast to terrain art, because as far as lighting is concerned...

But examples:

Those terrains are bland and monotonous at best. In fact, the jungle shots are by whatever means of reference plain ugly >.>
- The graphics just doesn't justify poor works of art.

You must be joking right? SC2 terrain is like a movie with these graphics, wc3 is still cartoony... Get sc2 then think again.

Since when did cartoony go out of style?

I side with 2-P on this point. Fully, from soup to nuts.
- You should visit the terrain section then think again ^[ricochet]

 

[Celaquil]

You must be joking right? SC2 terrain is like a movie with these graphics, wc3 is still cartoony... Get sc2 then think again.

In terms of standard models provided from the editor, and blizzard, itself? Hell yes.
But then, show me one terrainer in his right mind that actually USES the standard wc3 models >.>
- There's simply far too many good custom models for such nonesence.

That, and the Sc2 editor either lacks, or have made sertain features of the editor horribly hard to use. Such as fog, I want to be as fully in control of my fog as I am in Wc3, where in Sc2 I have yet to see where I can edit that in such a freely fashion. Flipping doodads, well, I can't grasp how to do that, it might be a simple thing to change around, but I sertainly didn't figure that out when I fooled around in the sc2 editor.

Not to mention sertain IMPORTANT things a terrainer MUST have, such as the "Glow" model, there are none such model for Sc2. See, terraining isn't all about the graphics given, it's more about skill and the tools available that makes the terrainer make the graphic of the game look good.

In the only manner I could agree with you, is for playable terrains.
- However MEH those are...

 

[2-P]

Such as fog, I want to be as fully in control of my fog as I am in Wc3, where in Sc2 I have yet to see where I can edit that in such a freely fashion.

You have actually more control of the fog in SC2, it's just a little bit more complicated to use.

Flipping doodads, well, I can't grasp how to do that

Not possible. Bugged since the end of the beta, Blizzard never fixed it.

And doodads are always affected by the terrain height, even after raising/lowering them, have fun building anything complex on uneven terrain. ^^

 

[Tleno]

You have actually more control of the fog in SC2, it's just a little bit more complicated to use.



Not possible. Bugged since the end of the beta, Blizzard never fixed it.

And doodads are always affected by the terrain height, even after raising/lowering them, have fun building anything complex on uneven terrain. ^^

Well, maybe because they are howering 0.1 or whatever amount you prefer over the terrain surface?
I mean, back in Warcraft 3 every time you moved a doodad, you had to raise him again... that was terribly irritating.

The lightning and fog in SC2 look very immpresive comparing to Warcraft 3.

 

[Oziris]

Tleno, you didn't have to raise it again There was an option for that.

 

[Rui]

Where are those pine trees from? The ones on the lower part of "Forest" appear to be from Typhon, but I could not recognize the origin of the pine trees. Are they custom?

I mean, back in Warcraft 3 every time you moved a doodad, you had to raise him again...

? There is an option that, when ticked, will adjust destructibles and doodads to the terrain when moved. When doing terrains like those you see on Terrain Board, you'll most likely need to turn it on and off depending on each situation.
And it's another downside for SC2 if it doesn't have such an option.

 

[Tleno]

Tleno, you didn't have to raise it again There was an option for that.

Whaaa- Strange, haven't noticed anything like that... I haven't even noticed that in any tutorials...

 

[fladdermasken]

Whaaa- Strange, haven't noticed anything like that... I haven't even noticed that in any tutorials...

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/1944260-post3.html

 

[AIagremm]

Damn. If only I knew that before >_>

 

[Tleno]

Damn. If only I knew that before >_>

Same thing... kinda too late for me now - I pretty much retired from good old WC3 modding.

 

[HappyCockroach]

A theme that I think that would work is Debris... ruins of a protoss, terran or zerg city, or the wastes of a battle, or a whole war.

The terrain should demonstrate that the place, which was once inhabitted, is empty and forgotten... and nature (or lack of nature) is occupying it again.




Oh... and avoid hosting a playable terrain contest. Free is better. The contest should be highly attractive. Playable has some limits that won't attract people.

 

[Tleno]

A theme that I think that would work is Debris... ruins of a protoss, terran or zerg city, or the wastes of a battle, or a whole war.

The terrain should demonstrate that the place, which was once inhabitted, is empty and forgotten... and nature (or lack of nature) is occupying it again.




Oh... and avoid hosting a playable terrain contest. Free is better. The contest should be highly attractive. Playable has some limits that won't attract people.

So that pretty much reminds of post-apocaliptic terrain suggestion...

 

[HappyCockroach]

So that pretty much reminds of post-apocaliptic terrain suggestion...

hmm... post-apocalyptic... a pretty awesome theme if you ask me. I think it's the right one to start the SC2 contests with.

 

[Tleno]

Hmmm, three votes (HappyCockroach, Alagremm and me) for Post-apocaliptic terrain already... anyone else for it?

 

[fladdermasken]

Don't get more generic than post-apocalyptic.
~:Why not try something inventive?:~

 

[Tleno]

Don't get more generic than post-apocalyptic. Why not try something inventive?

Inventiveness won't increase the amount of entries - the theme should be simple so everyone could do it, just like how it was with Battlefields theme for the WC3 terraining contest - we never had so many entries in any contest, and that's because of the theme simplicity.

 

[fladdermasken]

Inventiveness won't increase the amount of entries - the theme should be simple so everyone could do it

Non-sequitur: The ammount wouldn't notably decrease.

Ingenuity in concept doesn't collide with public interest. Nor is it by any means related to difficulty in execution or concept. ~:It simply means ingenuity:~
And on a related note, a contest theme is intended to be open to interpretation, something which is borderline crushed by generic themes (case in point below).

just like how it was with Battlefields theme for the WC3 terraining contest - we never had so many entries in any contest, and that's because of the theme simplicity.

And that's by far one of the worst contest themes I've ever had to endure working with, thank you very much (ignoring the blatant sense of irony in this statement).
The majority of all participants became obsessed with spamming various particle-emitters and eyesore special effects to commit to the theme.

~:Quality>Quantity:~

Then of course, the public poll. Riddled with "I really liked that one entry but it isn't a battle!!!111!! so I voted for something else" inputs claiming that some entries didn't follow the theme (which they ironically enough misinterpreted because of their own firm interpretation of a generic theme)

• It's the contestants task to create a terrain that creates in any way the feel of a battlefield during or after a battle. Additionally a battlefield before the battle can be shown, because this is covered by while battle, since the lineup of the parties is a part of the battle itself.

~retty much makes me shy anything generic:~

 

[Tleno]

Since this is the first contest and we need more contestants for it not to fail, plus because currently SC2 modding standarts are not high, quanity does beat qaulity in this situation.

 

[fladdermasken]

Since this is the first contest and we need more contestants for it not to fail, plus because currently SC2 modding standarts are not high, quanity does beat qaulity in this situation.

That was a response to the battlefield contest, and a parentheses to my original point.
- This paragraph was aimed at the theme discussion, respond to that.

Non-sequitur: The ammount wouldn't notably decrease.

Ingenuity in concept doesn't collide with public interest. Nor is it by any means related to difficulty in execution or concept. ~:It simply means ingenuity:~
And on a related note, a contest theme is intended to be open to interpretation, something which is borderline crushed by generic themes.

And this if you have any time to spare.

Then of course, the public poll. Riddled with "I really liked that one entry but it isn't a battle!!!111!! so I voted for something else" inputs claiming that some entries didn't follow the theme (which they ironically enough misinterpreted because of their own firm interpretation of a generic theme)

 

[HappyCockroach]

Seems to me that you're just making a narcisistic shitstorm of random arguments and pictures

why opposing so much to the theme? give an specific idea instead, cos "something inventive" isn't an actual theme.
we're going to hold more than one contests than this, so you'll have time to think your inventive theme through to a more objective idea.

post-apocalyptic gives many possibilities with sc2 atmosphere/elements, so it will be good. Participants have the right (and are encouraged) to be inventive in their entries.

 

[fladdermasken]

Looking at this in retrospective (considering I added this part last and it practically took me a year to finish) this is going to be my biggest post so far.
- So that's fun

Seems to me that you're just making a narcisistic shitstorm of random arguments and pictures

I don't consider any of my arguments rude, random or narcissistic. I was actually just discussing the theme. Why on earth you found them so offensive is beyond me, but sorry if I came across differently than per my intentions >.>

So I'll try to demonstrate my arguments differently just for you, because I really had no intentions of getting anyone's knickers in a twist.

Oh, and the picture was complementary. Sort of like how some people leave a nametag in their posts, I tend to post a small picture.

~:As such:~

---

why opposing so much to the theme?

Horrid experiences from a contest with a similarly generic theme (as mentioned in my other post)

Furtherly elaborating: The contest poll became really irritating. A vast majority of all voters had similar perceptions on what a battlefield should include (massive explosions, gore, guts, the whole shebang) and thus they neglected several good entries and voted for something they claimed more successfully portrayed a battlefield despite openly admitting to liking other entries better.

And it just so happens that the theme was misinterpreted more often that not since some users didn't seem to understand that pre-battle and post-battle were included, but that's irrelevant.

] - [highlight]My point is, those entries in particular were neglected for one reason only... *[/code] - [

Participants have the right (and are encouraged) to be inventive in their entries.

*... they were inventive

So while that is a seemingly good point (refering now to your quote) I'm quite sure we all share rather similar perceptions on what such a well known theme would imply (well known as in commonly portrayed in films, concept art and other similar art forms); which also indicates that a majority of all entries will be based on this perception and hence appear similar in a sense. That's obviously not a fact, only somewhat of a tendency, and such a tendency can actually shatter any creative concept (as demonstrated above).

- And I honestly think that's a risk you take with such a theme.

---

give an specific idea instead, cos "something inventive" isn't an actual theme.

Actually did - whether it's ingenious or not is another story, but at least I consider it less generic.
- (note that generic doesn't imply that the theme is poor, only somewhat cliché).

] - [highlight]I hope this clears my intentions, know that I don't intend to come off as disrespectful, narcissistic or in any other sense of the word, rude[/code] - [

 

[2-P]

narcisistic shitstorm of random arguments and pictures

Creative, new, challenging and a wide spectrum for interpretation.

We have our theme.

 

[AIagremm]

I still believe that the most fitting first theme would be to portrait a moment from SCI campaigns. It, as some here want, gives a large spectrum of choice and allows originality seeing as SCI didnt have much details in the terrain.

 

[HappyCockroach]

big post

I didn't say you were rude or agressive, you are being unoffensive. I just said your posts are apparently futile

gotta define it better so in the contest people wont be confused asking "DOES MINE FITS???" and I like Alagremm's idea too. just host the contest once and for all with one of the ideas... no need for voting, it's a contest - they give you a theme, you make something.

EDIT: or not DEFINE it better, but just illustrate the theme better. Those people who keep asking "DOES MINE FITS???" are just helpless, self-unreliant and should not be taken into consideration to make the theme....

 

[Tleno]

Less generic sounds pretty much generic itself, plus pretty much it's not an exact theme - sounds kinda... unncertain, esspecially since most people have different originality and genericalness standarts, this might lead to people's opinions differing so much that... well you got the point.

 

[fladdermasken]

I didn't say you were rude or agressive, you are being unoffensive. I just said your posts are apparently futile

Bah, futile in the sense that you apparently couldn't give two shits about whatever I'm saying >.>

Anyhow, ironically enough I don't care too much about this contest either since I won't be entering, hosting or judging it.
- Best of luck, hope you don't run into the same problem we had in the battlefield contest.

 

[Oziris]

Can't we just make a poll? >.> Arguing like this won't get us nowhere. Most people now suggest ideas that were already suggested. So I don't see a problem in making the god damn poll.

 

[M0rbid]

There are toooo many suggestions to make a successful poll right now...

I would prefer to limit it to five themes to get a good result. Also I am unsure about wether a poll is the right decision...

 

[Oziris]

Well it will definitely decide which theme is the most popular. You have 5 nice themes. Just look at my post with listed themes.

 

[Tleno]

Yeah, poll would be more efficient... but we pretty much should hear the opinions iof people on what 5 themes should be "nominated".

I suggest:
-Free Theme
-Post-Apocalypse
-Urban Enviroment

Now we just need to hear everyone's here or at least most of everyone's opinions on which ideas should be nominated, and those with most people selecting them will be added to the poll, and then it will be easier to select one of the suggested themes.

 

[RiotZ]

I may join this to present some of my nubbish rubbish.
First terraining contest should be Free I think...

 

[Tleno]

May we like continue this discussion, since it seems like it's gonna take forever for us to decide what should be the contest theme be, and I think it's better to do it now when it's summer than later when schoolyear will begin and etc.

 

[InfernalTater]

Post-Apocalyptic sounds like a good theme for a sc2 terrain.

However, I'd like to pitch in an idea: How about we push ourselves further by making a terrain that sc2 doesn't already have in large quantities. Post-Apocalyptic terrain is easily created with the SC2 editor, and I'm thinking that maybe we should instead make a natural terrain. Meaning: Forests, grass, mountains, rivers; a natural setting. Structures could be included, however the terrain would need to include at least (roughly) 50% nature.

If my idea for a theme is rejected, then I cast my vote on Post-Apocalyptic, as this provides an easily interpreted theme while still allowing for creativity and freedom.

 

[Tleno]

Once again I'm not sure about nature, since that kinda like limits the use of doodads to mostly natural ones...

 

[Celaquil]

That, and not to mention that the tree doodads, like always with Blizzard, look like shit when you watch them from the side, which will be the case for most terrains.

I still hold on to Steampunk for a theme, it both challenges creativity in the contestant AND gives the contestant free reign to use nearly any doodad he/she wants, considering the magority of uses doodads CAN have when applied to a losely undefineable theme.

 

[AIagremm]

Except the Mar Saran trees. I must say, though they could have been better(but we all know Blizzard has a thing against trees) I thought they looked pretty nice.

True, but I do think Steampunk can be too hard for the first contest =/

 

[Tleno]

Except the Mar Saran trees. I must say, though they could have been better(but we all know Blizzard has a thing against trees) I thought they looked pretty nice.

True, but I do think Steampunk can be too hard for the first contest =/

Well, some alien trees look pretty nice, not to mention Typhoon and Heaven ones...

Agree, Steampunk is just too damn hard for a first contest.

 

[AIagremm]

Would scare off many of the potential participants, for whom the first contest could be a great way to train their skills and explore the Galaxy Editor.

 

[Oziris]

Nah, I say bring the steampunk ON!

 

[AIagremm]

Easy for you to say, Mr.Lead Terrainer Signature =P

 

[Tleno]

May I ask you Oziris and Keiji if you're even going to partipiciate in this contest?

 

[Oziris]

I'm going to participate for sure. Not sure about Keiji.

 

[Statharas]

Can we get this, a model, a spell and an icon contests up? Just sayin...

 

[M0rbid]

I am in favor of Steampunk or Cyberpunk right now.
Those are pretty good archievable with what is availabe and still let room open for creative approach.
What of those two would you prefer ?

 

[Tleno]

I am in favor of Steampunk or Cyberpunk right now.
Those are pretty good archievable with what is availabe and still let room open for creative approach.
What of those two would you prefer ?

Cyberpunk. That sounds damn good. And damn not hard to make in Starcraft 2 with all the futuristic models...