RAW Ranged Agility Whores - need input

[Jahjahbinks]

Ranged Agility Whores

Spoiler

What would you do for 10 Tome of Agility +2?

Spoiler

BATTLE ROYALE EDITION

Hello, haven't used Worldedit since like 2006. Back then I was working on a battle royale type map, but with the advent of World of Warcraft it was never finished. I'm back now to do a similar map. Past few weeks I have been laying the ground work. Currently, it is just an 8 player 1vs1 arena map. So, you buy the units and items you want, ready up and every x seconds all the "ready" players are randomly sorted into 1vs1 arenas to duel. More of a proof of concept to personally practice getting reacquainted.
What makes it relatively unique? You are capped at 6 units, 1 hero and 5 of any units (all cost 1 supply). I like the idea of support units, but I think a lot of players aren't good at or enjoy 'ladder' sized unit micro with a couple dozen units. This way it's hero-centric, with units for support with minimal micro at most. Everyone has the same hero, but can choose from a few dozen abilities. Per the title, the only hero so far is a "Ranger," ranged agility hero. Next hero programmed will probably be Blademaster. There are no single level 'ultimates'--all abilities have 3 levels, i.e. Starfall is 3 levels. Choose from some base abilities like Shadow Strike, Silence or Entangling Roots and some custom ones like explosive and frost traps, Pocket Burrow, or Parthian Shot.


Anyway, currently the map is out of tune and I need advice for the current "Arena Mode" and the future Battle Royale mode
1 - Arena ideas) Is it worth polishing the current arena mode? (Or if anyone else loves the idea you can have the arena version to do whatever.) It's pretty fun playing against the rudimentary ai I added but it doesn't seem like people like "micro wars" type maps.
Really most of what's left is balance. How to change cost and possibly stats/abilities of stock units. Same with items. I have a few ideas for custom items but I guess theres no way to figure this out without play testing it a number of times and seeing what is op. Currently more expensive units give higher bounty; Frost Wyrms feed your enemy much more than a Grunt. Both players get the same income for winning/losing, only difference is bounty from kills. The only reward for winning is an ability point to buy/upgrade spells meaning the extra bounty can be the difference between a Crown of Kings or just a circulet. Atm, the game aka duels go on ad nausium with no end. Only victory scenario I see is an 8 player FFA battle. With maybe 8 player FFA every x duels or y minutes so you can keep tabs on the other players and so it feels like it is more than just a 2 player map. Then after some condition--fight to the death.

2 - BR ideas) I think you will be able to resurrect non hero units that die. So if you buy a unit type found only on one part of the map, you can resurrect it anywhere. Units can carry 2 items, some items give units stats like +atk/hp/armor, this system could be used to counter balance "5 Frost Wyrms" in arena as well. The terrain will hopefully look next level awesome with several different biomes.
How should players get abilities? As random drops? Purchased from different areas? Or allow all abilities but make them grind for ability points? Then how to get more ability points? Increase level cap >10 or sell points or?

2 cents, 1/2 a sheckle, bout tree fiddy, all input appreciated.

Spoiler: screens for reference, current terrain was hastily made with little thought.

Ranger skin pending.....need one with better cleavage tbh
Imgur or below

 

[Pyrogasm]

• Not sure if you meant to upload a version of the map but you didn't attach one here.
  
  
• Since bounty gold is the only significant source of it, I suggest you consider something to discourage (or outright disable) denying your own units to prevent others from getting bounty gold on them. (To that end something like Dark Rage + Shadowmeld could be used as a denial as well.)
  
  
• What is the split of melee/ranged/flying units? It could be frustrating to have melee units and not be able to touch an enemy frost wyrm, for example. Maybe a mechanic to prevent/allow players to circumvent this. A free/low-cost orb that doesn't add bonus damage but allows you to attack air, so you sacrifice minor gold and an item slot for AA.
  
  
• I enjoy the variety of terrain/shapes for the different battle areas. I think the differences help them feel like unique play areas and might meaningfully affect battle strategy.
  
  
• Interspersing FFA battles between every N rounds of duels probably would give the map some good pacing. It would probably make sense to have these take place within 'medium-small circle' zones in the BR area to give the map consistency between the two modes.
  
  
• If you're using auras you may have to re-balance their effects considering the 6 unit cap. They were definitely created with the idea of affecting a multi-ctrl-group battle party (+allies in a team match).

 

[Jahjahbinks]

• There's still some stuff that needs to be cleaned up. I'll try to release it this weekend.
  
• Yes I've been wondering how to deal with denying, while a good mechanic in ladder, it mostly reminds me of DotA negativity. Although, bounty is only about half of total income, currently 250 gold and 20 lumber plus 25*(# of arena matches played) gold and 5*(# of matches) lumber is added for winning or losing a match. Also been thinking of the best way to add a -surrender mechanic...like so you dont have to watch a single Gargoyle kill 3 knights.
  
• I've added a number of items like Spider Silk Broach (web item), Parthian Shot ability which ensnares air units for 4/8/12 seconds and ground units for 1/2/3 seconds with 10 second cd. Thus, air units forced to fight equally expensive ground units should probably lose. I think this prevents air spam, but if someone is not prepared, air units can catch someone off guard, granting an easy-cum-scummy win. Unit Item orb for is a good idea though unit items are not yet implemented.
• After the BR is mostly complete, I can CnP awesome terrian from that for even more diverse and dramatic looking arenas. If there is ever a community around the BR mode, the arena mode would be a good way to practice builds and experience the combat of the map without BR running, hiding and waiting.
• I think you are suggesting adding a larger FFA arena with a shrinking circle? Great idea. Forces engagement and makes it harder to hide in a corner waiting to swoop in for the win.
• That is a good point. Trueshot aura is a bit underpowered when you can only have 5 archers or hunts. The other auras, as in the screenshot, are from an ability that spawns a 75hp ward with 1/2/3 random auras for 30 mana with a short cd. Without the hindsight of testing, it seems fair for now.

 

[Cespie]

What would you do for 10 Tome of Agility +2?

What WOULDN'T I do?

So, you buy the units and items you want, ready up and every x seconds all the "ready" players are randomly sorted into 1vs1 arenas to duel. More of a proof of concept to personally practice getting reacquainted.

What if there's an uneven amount of players? Also, does this mean that not getting ready fast enough, is actively punished, as you get pulled into less fights?

I like the idea of support units, but I think a lot of players aren't good at or enjoy 'ladder' sized unit micro with a couple dozen units. This way it's hero-centric, with units for support with minimal micro at most.

I personally hate micro-managing a small army. I tend to focus entirely on heroes, which is why I suck at melee.
I'd say that you could make this map appeal to more players by designing the units around micromanagement preferences. For people who want to focus on heroes, you can give them some basic "beefcake" units that dont do much besides attacking, and then give the micro-players the option of picking slightly weaker units with spells that they can micro, likely to a greater effect than the beefcake units would end up amounting to, at the expense of being more demanding to use. You could also add straight up support-units to enable a hero-centric team more.

Really most of what's left is balance.

Balancing units is a bit tough, it takes testing. Balancing items becomes exponentially easier, if you use an item level system to keep track of an items overall value.
I base my item level system on the following for my map:

• 1 damage = 1 item level
• 1 stat = 2 item levels
• 1 armor = 5 item levels
• 25 hp = 1 item level
• 15 mana = 1 item level
• 1 all stats = 4 item levels (so compared to a single stat, you get 3 for the price of 2, to offset how all stats is generally worse than focused stats)

This means that an item with item level 20 could have any of the following stat combinations:

• 20 damage
• 10 damage and 5 agility
• 10 strength
• 4 armor
• 250 hp and 2 armor
• 3 all stats and 8 damage

These items are all somewhat equivalent in power, yet fit different build strategies. I base the proportions on what's offered by hero attributes. Attributes offer 2 stats each, plus damage if its the primary, so it makes sense that half a stats value is 1 damage, and the other half is the unit stat it increases (hp/mana/armor), with the 3rd stat being considered a bonus for picking a package deal (hp/mana regen, attack speed). For more unique effects, you're gonna have to balance those out 1 by 1. Say that you have an item that can cast a +10 armor buff that costs a bit of mana and has a 50% uptime. Now, the question is, is that burst of armor worth more than consistent armor in some builds? If no, how much armor would you yourself want to get instead of this ability, to feel like it has roughly equivalent overall value? Then that's roughly what that effect is worth in item level.

Currently more expensive units give higher bounty; Frost Wyrms feed your enemy much more than a Grunt. Both players get the same income for winning/losing, only difference is bounty from kills. The only reward for winning is an ability point to buy/upgrade spells meaning the extra bounty can be the difference between a Crown of Kings or just a circulet.

It honestly sounds a lot like you are actively punished for focusing on army over hero. You could just hire no units and spend all of your gold on your hero. You get more gold than the opponent from kills, even if you lose.
Unless units are remarkably strong compared to heroes, I'd wager that this balance is a bad idea.

Atm, the game aka duels go on ad nausium with no end. Only victory scenario I see is an 8 player FFA battle. With maybe 8 player FFA every x duels or y minutes so you can keep tabs on the other players and so it feels like it is more than just a 2 player map. Then after some condition--fight to the death.

Interesting idea. It encourages ganging up on fed opponents, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

2 - BR ideas) I think you will be able to resurrect non hero units that die. So if you buy a unit type found only on one part of the map, you can resurrect it anywhere. Units can carry 2 items, some items give units stats like +atk/hp/armor, this system could be used to counter balance "5 Frost Wyrms" in arena as well. The terrain will hopefully look next level awesome with several different biomes.

How do units convert between fights? Do you keep alive units for the next fight? If so, intentionally losing a few fights to stockpile resources for a hardcore army becomes a no-brain cheese strategy. It kinda seems like you'd wanna keep the roster of units as a part of the players baseline "assets", like items. So units never really "die", they just die in a fight, but you still own that unit for the next fight. Then you could sell units much like you'd sell an item, if you wanna replace one of your units. That way the army becomes a solid investment, rather than a way to burn out your resources.

How should players get abilities? As random drops? Purchased from different areas? Or allow all abilities but make them grind for ability points? Then how to get more ability points? Increase level cap >10 or sell points or?

Allow all abilities, have ability points given on a schedule. Like, for every round of fights, everyone gets a new skill point.

Yes I've been wondering how to deal with denying, while a good mechanic in ladder, it mostly reminds me of DotA negativity. Although, bounty is only about half of total income, currently 250 gold and 20 lumber plus 25*(# of arena matches played) gold and 5*(# of matches) lumber is added for winning or losing a match. Also been thinking of the best way to add a -surrender mechanic...like so you dont have to watch a single Gargoyle kill 3 knights.

I absolute hate denying as a concept. I feel like it only made its way into DotA as an unintended design flaw, and then competitive players started using it to their advantage, so it had to be maintained to avoid upsetting them. It makes no sense that killing your own units is a rewarded feat. If anything, I'd drop the whole bounty design system altogether, and start rewarding players for winning instead. This way, you ensure that people don't take advantage of your system in cheesy and unfun ways.

I've added a number of items like Spider Silk Broach (web item), Parthian Shot ability which ensnares air units for 4/8/12 seconds and ground units for 1/2/3 seconds with 10 second cd. Thus, air units forced to fight equally expensive ground units should probably lose. I think this prevents air spam, but if someone is not prepared, air units can catch someone off guard, granting an easy-cum-scummy win. Unit Item orb for is a good idea though unit items are not yet implemented.

Personally, I'd love if you kept the amount of air units to a minimum, but that's just me.

I think you are suggesting adding a larger FFA arena with a shrinking circle? Great idea. Forces engagement and makes it harder to hide in a corner waiting to swoop in for the win.

I personally like that game-mode idea. I'd add that it's important that you actually reward players who engage in fights, so it doesn't just become a mode where everyone hides except for that one 12-year old with ADHD.

That is a good point. Trueshot aura is a bit underpowered when you can only have 5 archers or hunts. The other auras, as in the screenshot, are from an ability that spawns a 75hp ward with 1/2/3 random auras for 30 mana with a short cd. Without the hindsight of testing, it seems fair for now.

Actually a cool idea. I might steal it.

 

[Jahjahbinks]

Hi, thanks for the input! Having finally got a couple 60s in Classic geared, ready to raid log, I've been spending a little spare time on this map.

It's a pain to test an 8 player map with yourself. There are some bugs, like randomly a player wont spawn in the FFA or something. Been working on terrain and brainstorming/balance mostly. One of the ideas that's weighed on me is: should you have to defeat all of your opponents units or just their hero? After some thought, I think just hero is the right choice, which of course changes a lot. Also fixes the "air problem" and makes the map less "micro battle-y."

Non-hero units can be upgraded with traditional upgrades but the upgrades that will allow big scaling (i.e. vs a hero w/ 10 +2 agi tomes) are "unit only" items. Think 1400hp grunt with 20% chance to bash, and heroes cannot get bash. Another idea is to make the units even more customizable, like mix and match unit abilities...have a priest to cast inner fire AND rejuvenation but then invisibility to hide itself, avoiding having to invest in unit items that will prevent it from getting near one shotted. Ideally, for the sake of variety and play-style, there would be a reason to have 6 units or only a couple.
Just kicking around ideas... getting them out there... A lot of what I wrote in my original post isn't relevant now...

Here are some recent screenshots, i take no credit for the w.i.p. arena, the terrain is all but copied from a beautiful template on this site, I choose a few parts of it to reproduce for the exciting 8 player brouhaha.

Spoiler

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Cespie, that is a great balancing idea. I didnt even know where to begin. If there are an odd number of players, the last player to ready will miss out. I think unless everyone really knows the map and what build they are going with from the start, people will take some down time to plan based on their opponents item, spell and unit choices; so it will not be the worst thing. Biggest reason to duel I think is practice, scope out your enemies build, a little income, and the winner gets a free hero ability point.
Giving players a choice of single strong hero vs hero with various number of support units, is something I hope works out fairly balanced. With the new ideas mentioned above, the bounty system is gone.
Originally it started out as buying units each round which was fun but too much of a mini micro wars style. Currently you buy a unit (which respawns) and have it until you choose to sell it for 50% refund. So why would someone who is a hero-centric player not get 6 archers for cheap easy dps boost? One example: a hero ability that buffs the hero for killing enemy units. Playing versus 1 sole hero, that ability is useless.
Currently you get an ability point for leveling up, winning a 1v1 or buying one (not cheap). This allows players who want less units to get a larger variety of more powerful spells than someone who invests in units.

 

[Cespie]

Cespie, that is a great balancing idea. I didnt even know where to begin. If there are an odd number of players, the last player to ready will miss out. I think unless everyone really knows the map and what build they are going with from the start, people will take some down time to plan based on their opponents item, spell and unit choices; so it will not be the worst thing. Biggest reason to duel I think is practice, scope out your enemies build, a little income, and the winner gets a free hero ability point.
Giving players a choice of single strong hero vs hero with various number of support units, is something I hope works out fairly balanced. With the new ideas mentioned above, the bounty system is gone.
Originally it started out as buying units each round which was fun but too much of a mini micro wars style. Currently you buy a unit (which respawns) and have it until you choose to sell it for 50% refund. So why would someone who is a hero-centric player not get 6 archers for cheap easy dps boost? One example: a hero ability that buffs the hero for killing enemy units. Playing versus 1 sole hero, that ability is useless.
Currently you get an ability point for leveling up, winning a 1v1 or buying one (not cheap). This allows players who want less units to get a larger variety of more powerful spells than someone who invests in units.

Glad it was of some use to you.
The arenas look great by the way!
Where do you get that tall temple wall? Is it a custom model?

 

[Jahjahbinks]

No customs. Mostly sunken temple doodads. I think that is just a normal "destructible" wall with z scaled 400%.

 

[Jahjahbinks]

Here is version 1 and possibly the only version. Not very polished but playable... needs 6-8 people otherwise people get bored, at least us west players, who seem to have the shortest attention spans.