I disagree with this point, games are art and should be preserved.
From whose perspective? The original artist might want to do that, curators too but why would the company do it if it doesn't bring them dough? They are detached from the artistic value at this point. If it does not bring revenue it's like some art collector doesn't have the necessary funds to properly preserve said art anymore and gives it away eventually. You can see this with the first Warcraft games which ended up on GoG but then for some reason, probably financial whether not costly or perhaps something to gain, they put them on the official site as well. Point is, they obviously had plans for Warcraft III so that's why it got Reforged and updated (and why it won't be separated) rather than end up on GoG. Heck even the first StarCraft didn't go there yet.
Deep man, if you're seriously going to argue against the preservation of art and history in general, I just simply can't respect that and won't entertain it. That's a ludicrous take and one that would absolutely destroy art and damage society if we accepted it. If one day Shakespeare's plays were owned by some company and they arbitrarily decided to never sell the original versions again and "update" everything, it would be an obscenity and catastrophic for culture.
I was making a prescriptive statement not a descriptive one when I say games are art and should be preserved I am well aware of how companies care nothing for art and only for profit.
Wow buddy thats really rude to say.
If Blizzard listens to someone like you then they are crazy.
Why you like the garbage that is Reforged. Because of rude people like you Blizzard should be out of buisnisse.
UUUF. I am Christian and I beleve in Jesus . But you aren't Jesus and never will be.
I'm going to need some evidence for that one chief.
It was a joke. I'm a Christian too, don't sweat it.
Okay.
If the way you've treated me this whole thread is how you treat others, that's the evidence.
Not rude, just the truth.
Nah. Blizzard could if they wanted too. But they only care about Wow.
See, this is the best argument and the most cynical one. The one I've kind of been avoiding. I don't have faith in Blizzard to do decent things. I believe what I'm advocating for is completely reasonable, good for the community and would make a lot of people very happy. But I believe Blizzard's executive branch is too engulfed in greed and negligence to do it, and the only way it'd happen is either through public pressure or a change in leadership.
I consider myself a fan of Warcraft III the Frozen Throne. I don't find other people to be the same. Some people might say that I am a fraud, because I have mostly stopped playing the live Reforged client in the last two or so years, almost entirely, so there is a case to be made from a corporate and legal standpoint that my avid fanhood regarding the official Frozen Throne client is or has died out, and that I can no longer be trusted as a fan of the game and have transitioned into being more of a forum troll.
I am a fan of Warcraft III the Frozen Throne. When it could be played online, I enjoyed doing that. Again, even if no one else enjoys it, I don't desire to feel beholden to them. I should be allowed to care about what I choose to care about. Society is free to look at me and say, "No one cares about what you care about, Retera." This is acceptable to me. I do not think it should change my opinion.
Who are you talking to when you say, "Just add the features" in this sentence? Are you talking to the "new" people? Because the "new" people in charge are largely the problem. If you ask them to take the "old" that you say is better, and add the "new" features... well...
No, this is not true, it is a closed source program, I don't have access to this program and so I doubt Blizzard does either, and accordingly they cannot "take it."
So, I think that 1.26 and community edition are vastly different, and if you doctor either of them to end up requiring Battle.net Launcher Application then you're going to end up with the Reforged. That's what Reforged is and where it came from. You know what's cool about the Frozen Throne? It's a simple Windows application that launches when I pin it to my task bar or double click the EXE from inside program files.
This is a radical statement because 1.29 is the Reforged. There is code in the 1.29 application to load the Reforged graphics if they are present on the computer in the Reforged 1.29 format, which allegedly exists according to the code [but never escaped Activision offices so we don't have it publicly available on Earth].
They are -- WoW Classic is the WoW Retail system parading around in the hollowed out corpse of WoW Vanilla.
Then can I change your mind? Here is my opinion based on my technological experiences:
Classic WoW is such a sad example. Vanilla WoW [or whatever you want to call the actual game that I purchased and played in 2005ish] is more fun than Classic WoW, and it's gone now. Classic WoW is the Reforged of WoW. It's their emulator built to let modern people who accept modern technology pretend to be playing the real thing, which from a technical standpoint they aren't. I feel its success detracts from your point, rather than adding to it, and accordingly I would agree that we should bury arguments about what is popular, because I don't prefer to concern myself with that, because of how impossible it feels for me to convince other people to like what I like.
Awesome, this might be the best thing I've read in this thread today, at least insofar as it aligns with my personal desires. I couldn't agree more. Hopefully if they did release the code, and then Hive truly made a serious Hive game version off of it, a lot of thought would have to go to how to avoid hacking and cheating. I don't have the answer to that. But -- and maybe I'm alone in this -- I'm ready to solve that problem myself instead of using it as an excuse to delegate power to a corporation who doesn't seem to care one iota about how I feel.
My Warsmash project that seeks to rewrite the game has this version issue. The problem is solved by the fact that almost nobody wants to play Warsmash, and when they do, they agree on what version to play. The end. Has not been an issue.
I reckon it's harder than you're expecting technologically because of the mess they made with the code inside that company. That's what an insider once told us.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard could work with the team to get the code if they reached out to them. I don't think it'd be that hard. Especially considering CE is entirely based on Blizzard's own intellectual property.
I wasn't too deep into Hive community drama when RF came out. I was taking a break from it for obvious reasons. Was there really a sentiment back then of "stop complaining, hold your nose and play Reforged anyway"? Mostly I remember people doing their best to try to make the best of the situation by archiving the older patches and making mods to try to stabilize the game as much as possible.
Each with their craziness. Some daydream of pure Classic while others understand games are only relatively art and produced and held by companies or authorized physical persons for profit. That's art by the way, subjective.
Neither will any Christian or non-Christian unless they'd be acting of course. Well, some really think they are but they're not the norm.
Everyone's subjective and right then. Perhaps then you come as insulting too?
Yeah, everyone's right wrong and wrong right. The paradox.
I guess the most meaningful updates made were by Blizzard and not fans. The meaningful things that the community did were around or by using those updates as backbone. Even the Community Edition is not a true stand alone. It tries to tie in with the newest official updates for a sort of backwards compatibility.
Cancelling Reforged would still have the game as it is, which you consider different, but without the graphical changes. Ignore that and you have Classic but updated.
No. They're very different. The menu, the engine changes, the content changes, the balance changes, the massive changes to online functionality that end up incredibly glitchy, the downgraded performance on most systems, and the 30gb of extra data. They're not the same game and continuing to insist they are is just willful ignorance at this point.
And this speaks to my point... If I'm understanding Homor correctly, I think this isn't probably actually what he wants. But if he scores a win against me, I'm sure the 3-year-late Classic-but-updated ranked ladder won't count it, since it randomly doesn't count games sometimes, so I'm undefeatable in my arguments and anyone who wins against me will have their win conveniently forgotten.
To me it's very sad to hear that this is how you decide what is meaningful.
Well, Mr. Condescending, by that logic, no Warcraft III patch version over the one at game launch is the real Warcraft III anymore.
Sorry about the crazy part. Got carried away. But I still think they should at least have two separate games of Warcraft 3.
For the official game's longevity yeah. Nobody said it war perfect. As for everyone's own meaningfulness, it's another story which eventually diffuses into an incoherent babble.
Nah. The classic needs to be removed from reforeged and updated to 1.3.2. onwards.
I tried searching but I don't remember the exact date or thread so I couldn't find it, but I do remember at least one user pretty much saying what I quoted.
No. Again, Reforged is vastly different from classic. No other previous patch even comes close to making the massive amount of changes it makes. Every prior patch still felt like the classic game with a few extra things added on. Reforged was a complete overhaul of the entire game. It might have the same "core" that that core is surrounded by a massive mound of new changes you have to sift through.
The hard work of dedicated and passionate fans is the only reason anyone plays Reforged anymore. If it weren't for the great custom maps made for it, there'd be nothing of value. The "Reforged" campaign was a terrible rush job made by a single abused and exploited fan modder in six months and adds nothing noteworthy or valuable to the game in any way. The Reforged graphics are pointless, don't play well and tank the performance. The stupid Chromium menus only add more bugs and less stability than the software menus made 20+ years ago. The most anyone gets out of Reforged are the World Editor extensions, which people have done some cool stuff with, but without fans to make that great content they'd be absolutely worthless and unused.
To me it's just pedantry. 1.27 - 1.31 apparently only happened because Reforged was in production and they were made to tease it. But they would have been better off just stopping at 1.29. If it came down to either having all the changes 1.27+ made or sticking to 1.26, I'd rather have stuck with 1.26. Literally doing nothing would have been preferable.
Good point. The fans of this game have never done anything. The person most worthy of the credit is Bobby Kotick for his excellent policies. In fact the fans struggle to even keep a community modding website going for Reforged, much less for multiple games in one site, which is all the more reason why there should never be a classic version. If someone tried to make one they would probably be an idiot to do that, and it wouldn't be the real game it would be off topic for this thread, and as such would be deleted by moderation.
Most of the people claiming about how different Wc3 "classic" and Reforged are, probably have a less informed idea of the actual differences than those who are playing on "Reforged". Many "Reforged" players in fact stayed on older patches of wc3 after the disastrous launch of 1.32+. I think mid to late 2023, when custom campaign functionality was released, which was 3 and a half years after 1.32 was released, was when a lot of people from hive migrated to the latest patch of the game (hive is more inclined towards single player content than the general wc3 player base to be fair).
Nah. The old classic patches aren't a disaster. While Reforged yes. Patch 1.31. classic needs and update to 1.3.2. Maybe Blizzard is paying you to defend Reforged I don't know. Just my tought. No offense.
At the end of the day, month, year or decade (considering how often they update), it's a patch/update regardless.
Of course the idea is that there was still interest for Warcraft III that they update it still. But as you can see, the fans worked with Reforged ultimately, not some guerrilla rogue mod.
Maybe you have to think a little more or don't since you overthink it wrongly.
Okay. I think they should still create classic patch 1.3.2. for us classic players. Since we were forced to play deforged since launch in 2020. Fix counltess bugs again. I don't see the problem.
"Reforged-Haters"? You say that like it's a special category or something. The vast majority of people I've spoken to either despise Reforged or just tolerate it. Let's not pretend one of the most hated remasters of all time is somehow popular. There's a reason it has a 0.4 on Metacritic and is listed on Wikipedia as one of the worst "games" of the 2020s. Even Blizzard employees admit it's a bad game and not what they wanted it to be. The crew have said they're unhappy with it and it didn't live up to their expectations. If you don't believe me, read Blizzard's own internal report. It's scathing, and it isn't even
Disclaimer: I know some people on the forums aren't good at English, so I'd like to make it clear Retera is being sarcastic in this post XD.
Patronizing as ever and he says others are insulting him.
I'm not insulting anyone. Pekisa7 reacted with a sad emoji and I assumed that's because he misunderstand. Saying there are people on Hive who don't speak English well isn't an insult, because there are literally hundreds of people on the site who are ESL
Maybe I did misunderstood something. Can you tell me what?
It was this post:
You reacted with a sad emoji, and I assume that's because you thought it was serious, though I might be mistaken. This post was sarcasm and meant to make mock the idea that Blizzard made "more meaningful updates than fans." Everything written here is pretty much the opposite of what Retera thinks IIRC.
No worries buddy. I understand.It was this post:
You reacted with a sad emoji, and I assume that's because you thought it was serious, though I might be mistaken. This post was sarcasm and meant to make mock the idea that Blizzard made "more meaningful updates than fans." Everything written here is pretty much the opposite of what Retera thinks IIRC.
"The fans of this game have never done anything" --> this entire site is dedicated to the great work fans have done.
"The person who deserves credit is Bobby Kotick for his excellent policies" --> Bobby Kotick is near universally despised and for good reason.
"Fans struggle to keep a site going for Reforged, much less multiple games in one site" --> That's exactly what Hive does and they're doing it well.
"If someone tried to make a classic version, they'd be an idiot" --> this is the biggest giveaway. Retera is literally working on a classic version himself.
I hope that clears things up. If you already knew all that I apologize for overexplaining lol
I totally agree with Homor that we should have an alternate classic client. I also think they should update it to patch 1.3.2. onwards.
Yeah this was the complete opposite for me, somehow I felt Patch 1.33 in late 2022 hurt my soul and since then I had an even harder time respecting the latest patches.
What about 1.33+ haters like me though?
Activision Microsoft has a lot of money and sometimes I'm paranoid Bobby Kotick might still have agents lurking in the shadows even in our fan communities even though I'm probably wrong about it. Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.
Patch 2.0 went out of its way to replace the menu background with a picture of Frozen Throne, and when that wasn't good enough they replaced the background with a 3D render of the Frozen Throne. If you can't accept playing a picture of Frozen Throne as the same as playing Frozen Throne, have you considered that maybe you're the problem?
That's a bit off topic, it's fair to think that a facade of classic rebuilt from game experiences without original code, then played on a completely different non-Windows OS, is not exactly classic. In almost any sense of the word. If I want to be cynical, I'm not fan of Warcraft 3 anymore I just play some game on some other game engine most of my time. Let's talk about Reforged please. While I might not agree, to some folks it's the only thing that matters and is meaningful, and it's the only real version of Warcraft III.Retera is literally working on a classic version himself.
Okay true but I still think we should praise the capabilities, creativity, and meaningfulness of work done by fans on sites like Hive Workshop. Maybe that means I'm the problem and it's like deepstrasz said, community on Hive has never done anything meaningful. But I just dont agree, and maybe that's just my opinion.
First of all. We are not the problem. And never will be the problem. As I recall Bobby Kotick left Blizzard years ago. What's wrong with having the old clinet patched to 1.3.2. How could you say that the Hive community hasn't done anything meaningfull . They created their own ideas for others to play and they love their projects themselves. Blizzard is the problem. They are just greeady and only focus on Wow. That's bad from their side not ours. I wouldn't let my favorite game to rot in deforged. I am not sure any of his agents are still there too.
The skin formatting changes are a waste and gum up the data and burn programming time. Upgrading classic to 1.32 doesn't make sense to me, I really think if the company did this you would be highly likely to feel it wasnt classic anymore.
Actually, sorry it was sarcasm because of how much I feel Hive's creations feel cooler to me than RF.
If it won't feel like classic. Then still update it to 1.3.2. but fix the bugs. Don't add anything that reforged added. That's my solution.
That's coming from your contriving mouth.
I feel this was a false dichotomy, and no I don't feel like Kam and MindWorX's time officially employed by Activision is the only time anyone from the community did anything meaningful.
I really don't get this logic at all. If something works fine and has no major bugs, it doesn't need to be regularly maintained and updated. There are games from 20+ years ago that still run just fine on modern systems. Plus, if you aren't interested in the stuff Blizzard is making, doing your own thing you prefer makes more sense.
It might be worth seeing how many maps/campaigns are now being made with the latest patch on hiveworkshop, when compared with a few years ago. There is a clear trend towards moving in the direction of the latest patch; you might be the one standing in the way.
Tulee, I don't know how many times I've said it but this "appeal to majority" fallacy nonsense means nothing to me. Firstly, being in the "majority" wouldn't make you right in the first place. Secondly, you can't possibly know you're in the majority based on just the evidence you have. We have absolutely zero idea how many people stopped playing WC3 altogether because of RF, how many moved to older patches, and how many people don't like or want RF but play it anyway out of what they feel is necessity. It's the exact kind of argument people used against Classic WoW and it was proven tremendously wrong back then too.
