Official "Classic" Version? (Similar to Community Edition)

[Homor]

For Warcraft 3, Blizzard seems to actually be listening to fan feedback now, to some extent at least. They've actually started patching bugs the community reports and making small changes they've requested. So, with that in mind, do you guys think its possible to get them to put out an official "classic" client? Its a feature that IMO has been sorely needed since launch.

Community Edition does a good job laying out the template. It's a super up version of 1.29 that preserves the game the way it used to be, but can also run some more modern maps. A small team of independent hobbyists were able to pull it off and make it work surprisingly well. So, it stands to reason that a team of professionals could do something similar and maybe even make it a more stable experience.

Do you think there's enough support for this? As someone who hasn't played Reforged in years but still plays the classic version offline, I'd love it if someone brought this up on the PTR forums there.

 

[Footman16]

I'd say that chance is close to 0? Why would they? Most people use the Reforged client outside of niche cases. You say it's a feature that's been sorely needed since launch but... is it? Why is it needed now that most features have been returned we're getting updates that were asked for. Why would they split their user base between two clients to be maintained?

 

[loktar]

So, with that in mind, do you guys think its possible to get them to put out an official "classic" client? Its a feature that IMO has been sorely needed since launch.

In short, no. The "classic" client is the latest version in SD mode, it's extremely unlikely they'll ever support more than one version/client. If I were you, I would let this idea go, it's just not gonna happen.

 

[Homor]

In short, no. The "classic" client is the latest version in SD mode, it's extremely unlikely they'll ever support more than one version/client. If I were you, I would let this idea go, it's just not gonna happen.

Oh, I'm never gonna let it go. Haven't for five years, still won't if it has to be the community that does it, that's fine. Community Edition needs a little more work but its great so far. We'll see who finishes their "classic client" first.

Just an addendum: the entire point of a classic client is that Blizzard wouldn't "support it" very much at all. They'd put it out and leave it alone, only intervening for bug fixes and the like. Maybe even make it offline entirely. Something like that.

It's a hard pass for me to ever spend money on the game again. If they never do it, I'll never play it.

I'd say that chance is close to 0? Why would they? Most people use the Reforged client outside of niche cases. You say it's a feature that's been sorely needed since launch but... is it? Why is it needed now that most features have been returned we're getting updates that were asked for. Why would they split their user base between two clients to be maintained?

I think people actively playing the official client overestimate how big their slice of the community is. I don't mean that in an insulting way, I just think it's hard to see the full picture clearly when you're that close.

I think there's a huge number of people who still play on 1.31, 1.29 or 1.26, they're just not as active in the "community" because a lot of people only use the latest version. There's also a ton of people who dropped the game entirely because of the changes Blizzard made. Not to mention, China has the most Warcraft 3 players in the entire world, and they use their own specialized client.

So, I think saying "most people" is misleading.

But the numbers don't matter nearly as much as the importance of game/art preservation. If nobody were looking at the Mona Lisa, I'd still say that isn't a valid reason to paint over it.

 

[Retera]

We'll see who finishes their "classic client" first.

Well, considering that Microsoft Activision is holding the source code hostage from the community for the old 2003 game, they finished their "classic client" first a long time ago, in 2020, and it's called Reforged. So it seems like this Community Edition that you want to praise is years behind. Plus, whenever Reforged 2.0.4 comes out and changes the format of all maps and models, your "Community Edition" is still behind. They're always behind.

Imagine if the reverse happened. Imagined if "Community Edition" changed the format of all models and maps so that they only work on "Community Edition." Everybody online would just say the maps were broken. That's how it works in this one-way relationship.

Just an addendum: the entire point of a classic client is that Blizzard wouldn't "support it" very much at all. They'd put it out and leave it alone, only intervening for bug fixes and the like. Maybe even make it offline entirely. Something like that.

Okay but they've already been supporting it. They started work on Reforged in 2018 and have been iterating on the classic client to support it for 7 years since then (in their perspective). Your decision to reject their Reforged Classic as your classic client, in their eyes, is a situation where the problem is you. They can't change that because if they make a mode, or a button, or a switch that plays Classic Mode but More Classically Than Classic Mode, then you'll just move the goalposts again and tell them it's not Classic but it's actually Reforged just playing the most Classical of Classic Modes ever created on Reforged.

How can they get you stop moving the goalposts? How would you, or I, or anybody else express to them what we actually want?

If nobody were looking at the Mona Lisa, I'd still say that isn't a valid reason to paint over it.

I'm more in this camp, I think that I'm a little bit out of touch with whether most people play the latest patch but I also kind of don't care. What I like to do is use Warcraft III as a creative outlet and as time goes on, that becomes harder to do. Reforged makes that harder to do. When I try to take steps to have more power over the situation so that as a creative I'm more the boss instead of Reforged, the world seems to push back. The ebb and flow results in me running tools and systems that use 1.26-based or 1.27-based stuff because I always want the basics to work, without question, where I'm in charge of stewarding that they do work. I think at some point my trust in the official system has started to decline enough that even if they fixed everything and it's great, I've been burned enough times that for me the difference between Classic and Reforged is that the Classic client doesn't have managers trying to "improve" or "fix" it. And because that's become the difference in my life, they definitionally cannot ever make it good. I don't see any solution that Microsoft could cook up that would fix it for me. I know what I want -- maybe I finally understand -- and I could spell it out very specifically, but they are never going to give it to me. And put simply, that thing which I want, is a C++ source code to patch 1.26 / 1.27 that is ported to run natively on Linux and OpenGL, using OpenAL for audio instead of Miles. And I want it to have no strings attached -- to obtain it, I should not be required to work for their company and to derive profits from the source code access, because for me the game is to have the "recompile with dorky new features" power, and the "git checkout last week's version and be sure it runs flawlessly" power. It's so simple, I can put that in a few sentence description. What I want actually could exist, and humans could build it, but they will not. We will not.

So because I want not only the Classic Client but actually this power to ensure it will always keep running by having source code access, I'm basically a troll now. I can't get on here and reach any agreement with you about the Classic client that I want, because I'm using a computer where 1.26 / 1.27 literally do not and can never run, because my computer has the wrong computer architecture / kernel. I need to recompile those programs for my computer to get them running, and Microsoft & friends aren't letting me.

(Yes, obviously Reforged also doesn't run on this computer, but that's beside the point.)

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Oh, I'm never gonna let it go. Haven't for five years, still won't if it has to be the community that does it, that's fine. Community Edition needs a little more work but its great so far. We'll see who finishes their "classic client" first.

Just an addendum: the entire point of a classic client is that Blizzard wouldn't "support it" very much at all. They'd put it out and leave it alone, only intervening for bug fixes and the like. Maybe even make it offline entirely. Something like that.

It's a hard pass for me to ever spend money on the game again. If they never do it, I'll never play it.


I think people actively playing the official client overestimate how big their slice of the community is. I don't mean that in an insulting way, I just think it's hard to see the full picture clearly when you're that close.

I think there's a huge number of people who still play on 1.31, 1.29 or 1.26, they're just not as active in the "community" because a lot of people only use the latest version. There's also a ton of people who dropped the game entirely because of the changes Blizzard made. Not to mention, China has the most Warcraft 3 players in the entire world, and they use their own specialized client.

So, I think saying "most people" is misleading.

But the numbers don't matter nearly as much as the importance of game/art preservation. If nobody were looking at the Mona Lisa, I'd still say that isn't a valid reason to paint over it.

Just drop the copium, man.

 

[Retera]

Just drop the copium, man.

It's a father's right to dream, isn't it?

 

[Homor]

So because I want not only the Classic Client but actually this power to ensure it will always keep running by having source code access,

Hell yeah. I'd love for them to drop the source code too. It'd be easier than making a Classic Client. Though companies really hate sharing that kind of thing because it gives them less control of a product. Either one works for me, but in ideal world they'd do both. A man can dream, can't he?

Just drop the copium, man.

People said the same thing about the idea of classic WoW. Then it came out and became one of the best selling Blizzard games ever. If Blizzard doesn't restore the classic experience, somebody will. Just like Vanilla WoW's private servers. Community Edition is already pretty much that.

Anything is possible with enough public demand, even if the public has to do it themselves. Don't get me wrong, I'm not holding my breath for it. But I'm really impressed with what the people behind CE have been able to achieve.

 

[Retera]

Then it came out and became one of the best selling Blizzard games ever.

Is that proof that it's good, or that millions of people actually are stupid and don't care?

Anything is possible with enough public demand, even if the public has to do it themselves.

We both know that this company is treating how to render a catapult killing a cartoon sheep in a children's video game as if it were a corporate secret. We don't exactly live in a society that operates with the little guy's best interest at heart.

 

[tulee]

People said the same thing about the idea of classic WoW. Then it came out and became one of the best selling Blizzard games ever. If Blizzard doesn't restore the classic experience, somebody will. Just like Vanilla WoW's private servers. Community Edition is already pretty much that.

What "classic experience"? Besides the 30GB addition, current Wc3 is almost identical to older versions of wc3. It is somewhat ridiculous to compare Wow Classic, which had fundamental differences to retail Wow, with older versions of Wc3.

Like Retera said, everything post 1.27(b) is part of "Reforged", yet you praise Community Edition which was made on 1.29. Blizzard said they wanted to slowly add changes to wc3 and not just dump everything at the same time, which is why they added so many good changes during 1.28-1.31. All of those changes are part of "Reforged".

Since the huge exodus of players due to the unfavourable release of "Reforged", people have been slowly moving towards the latest versions of Wc3, not away. As time goes on, this trend will likely continue, so I believe there is 0 chance they will ever put out a "classic" client.

With each patch released, there are more fixes added than problems created, which is a win for everyone.

I think people actively playing the official client overestimate how big their slice of the community is. I don't mean that in an insulting way, I just think it's hard to see the full picture clearly when you're that close.

Hive is far more inclined towards single-player content than Wc3 as a whole, since people who enjoy multiplayer do not need to go to communities to find maps/content to play; they can just go online and join games. Single-player content is mostly only available on external sites like hiveworkshop, so there is definitely a bias of player type on hive that does not reflect the average wc3 player.

And yes, the latest additions and changes for Wc3 through the recent patches have been super helpful for singleplayer content. Things like having multi-language translations within a single campaign file like in Re-Reforged or OutsiderXE's Lord of the Clans would have been unheard of 10 years ago, where people were mostly still forced to have different campaign files for different languages. There are also numerous changes in the World Editor for quality-of-life stuff, though admittingly many of these changes already exist in 3rd party editors aimed at older versions of Wc3.

Personally, I think most people whose experiences were ruined of Wc3 "Reforged" years ago (which was pretty unsatisfactory when released) have not given it a fair chance in its latest state. If they did, I feel that many of them would put their biases behind them and probably move to Battlenet.

It's a father's right to dream, isn't it?

LOL.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

What "classic experience"? Besides the 30GB addition, current Wc3 is almost identical to older versions of wc3. It is somewhat ridiculous to compare Wow Classic, which had fundamental differences to retail Wow, with older versions of Wc3.

Like Retera said, everything post 1.27(b) is part of "Reforged", yet you praise Community Edition which was made on 1.29. Blizzard said they wanted to slowly add changes to wc3 and not just dump everything at the same time, which is why they added so many good changes during 1.28-1.31. All of those changes are part of "Reforged".

Since the huge exodus of players due to the unfavourable release of "Reforged", people have been slowly moving towards the latest versions of Wc3, not away. As time goes on, this trend will likely continue, so I believe there is 0 chance they will ever put out a "classic" client.

With each patch released, there are more fixes added than problems created, which is a win for everyone.

Hive is far more inclined towards single-player content than Wc3 as a whole, since people who enjoy multiplayer do not need to go to communities to find maps/content to play; they can just go online and join games. Single-player content is mostly only available on external sites like hiveworkshop, so there is definitely a bias of player type on hive that does not reflect the average wc3 player.

And yes, the latest additions and changes for Wc3 through the recent patches have been super helpful for singleplayer content. Things like having multi-language translations within a single campaign file like in Re-Reforged or OutsiderXE's Lord of the Clans would have been unheard of 10 years ago, where people were mostly still forced to have different campaign files for different languages. There are also numerous changes in the World Editor for quality-of-life stuff, though admittingly many of these changes already exist in 3rd party editors aimed at older versions of Wc3.

Personally, I think most people whose experiences were ruined of Wc3 "Reforged" years ago (which was pretty unsatisfactory when released) have not given it a fair chance in its latest state. If they did, I feel that many of them would put their biases behind them and probably move to Battlenet.



LOL.

Don't bother, the kind of negativity from him is the same exact reason I left DesignerDave's discord. It's the same spill of shit 24/7 and it's exhausting.

 

[Homor]

Don't bother, the kind of negativity from him is the same exact reason I left DesignerDave's discord. It's the same spill of shit 24/7 and it's exhausting.

Alright, if you're gonna dredge that up in front of everyone, let's get all the details out in the open so bystanders aren't confused. I'll keep this as polite, but firm.

You were the negative one, Adiniz.

We were discussing the controversy around Reforged's EULA, and you were going on and on about how people were stupid for misunderstanding it, and you were ranting about how that misunderstanding was devestating to the community and half the reason why Reforged was in the poor state it was in. It was a statement I strongly disagree with and I made my reasons why clear: blaming the fans for Reforged's failure is terribly misguided and toxic, as it only further hurts people and splits the community apart. If there was a misunderstanding about the EULA, it was entirely Blizzard's fault for doing absolutely nothing to clear it up.

But the negative response to Reforged ultimately had nothing to do with the problems it had. The budget was massively cut before it was even released, long before any feedback came. The extremely negative reception was the result of the totality of problems it had in combination. Whether or not the EULA dispute was valid (which I won't get into because IMO it actually matters very little) was just one criticism of many. Blizzard executives never had any intention of fixing Reforged and it's only because of public pressure that they've done what they have.

Blaming the fans for the state of Reforged isn't just completely and utterly wrong, it further divides the community and hurts people. It's toxic, it's misguided, and worst of all, it only foments more anger and resentment in people against each other. Which is really, really wrong IMO.

Designer Dave, someone who's been in the industry for 20 years, worked on Reforged (briefly) and keeps in contact with many who worked on it to this day, agrees with me on this. He's said exactly the same thing, and in much more direct and even harsh language. I'm not exactly sure when you abruptly left the server, but it seemed like you stormed out after Dave made a statement agreeing with what I said.

I was polite to you and we had an honest disagreement, and I thought we had a civil discussion about it, but apparently it made you so mad you left the entire Discord. I feel bad about that, but I also find it extremely unreasonable.

I respect you, but I strongly disagree with you, and I think the way you're going about your own disagreement is toxic.

Besides the 30GB addition, current Wc3 is almost identical to older versions of wc3.

That's a very obtuse statement. The 30GB itself is a massive change. But other than that, almost everything about Reforged is different, from the menus to the options to the UI, etc. The system specs are higher than even 1.31 was, there are tons of new features and bugs. It's a very different game. If its one you enjoy, more power to you. But it isn't one I enjoy and worse yet, they had to overwrite an existing game to make it.

They're very, very different. It would be fine if there was a preserved original experience that came bundled with the game, like so many other remasters do, but there isn't.

So yeah, I praise Community Edition and I'll keep doing so, because it's a great example of the right way to do it. An alternate client for people who want to play the game as they remember it with some slight tweaks, rather than an entire remaster. Now, that gets into the discussion of games preservation itself and even stuff like the "Stop Killing Games" movement. But that's another discussion entirely.

My point isn't negativity. Heck, I'm extremely positive about Community Edition. My point is the importance of stuff like Community Edition, and how Blizzard should make something similar. Will they? It seems quite unlikely at this point, but I'll keep saying they should, and I think more people should be vocal about that.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Alright, if you're gonna dredge that up in front of everyone, let's get all the details out in the open so bystanders aren't confused. I'll keep this as polite, but firm.

You were the negative one, Adiniz.

We were discussing the controversy around Reforged's EULA, and you were going on and on about how people were stupid for misunderstanding it, and you were ranting about how that misunderstanding was devestating to the community and half the reason why Reforged was in the poor state it was in. It was a statement I strongly disagree with and I made my reasons why clear: blaming the fans for Reforged's failure is terribly misguided and toxic, as it only further hurts people and splits the community apart. If there was a misunderstanding about the EULA, it was entirely Blizzard's fault for doing absolutely nothing to clear it up.

But the negative response to Reforged ultimately had nothing to do with the problems it had. The budget was massively cut before it was even released, long before any feedback came. The extremely negative reception was the result of the totality of problems it had in combination. Whether or not the EULA dispute was valid (which I won't get into because IMO it actually matters very little) was just one criticism of many. Blizzard executives never had any intention of fixing Reforged and it's only because of public pressure that they've done what they have.

Blaming the fans for the state of Reforged isn't just completely and utterly wrong, it further divides the community and hurts people. It's toxic, it's misguided, and worst of all, it only foments more anger and resentment in people against each other. Which is really, really wrong IMO.

Designer Dave, someone who's been in the industry for 20 years, worked on Reforged (briefly) and keeps in contact with many who worked on it to this day, agrees with me on this. He's said exactly the same thing, and in much more direct and even harsh language. I'm not exactly sure when you abruptly left the server, but it seemed like you stormed out after Dave made a statement agreeing with what I said.

I was polite to you and we had an honest disagreement, and I thought we had a civil discussion about it, but apparently it made you so mad you left the entire Discord. I feel bad about that, but I also find it extremely unreasonable.

I respect you, but I strongly disagree with you, and I think the way you're going about your own disagreement is toxic.


That's a very obtuse statement. The 30GB itself is a massive change. But other than that, almost everything about Reforged is different, from the menus to the options to the UI, etc. The system specs are higher than even 1.31 was, there are tons of new features and bugs. It's a very different game. If its one you enjoy, more power to you. But it isn't one I enjoy and worse yet, they had to overwrite an existing game to make it.

They're very, very different. It would be fine if there was a preserved original experience that came bundled with the game, like so many other remasters do, but there isn't.

So yeah, I praise Community Edition and I'll keep doing so, because it's a great example of the right way to do it. An alternate client for people who want to play the game as they remember it with some slight tweaks, rather than an entire remaster. Now, that gets into the discussion of games preservation itself and even stuff like the "Stop Killing Games" movement. But that's another discussion entirely.

My point isn't negativity. Heck, I'm extremely positive about Community Edition. My point is the importance of stuff like Community Edition, and how Blizzard should make something similar. Will they? It seems quite unlikely at this point, but I'll keep saying they should, and I think more people should be vocal about that.

"I feel bad about that, but I also find it extremely unreasonable."
Everything else aside, it's not unreasonable. I constantly see your point and try to understand where you're coming from, but you also don't make room for any other opinions, and view your own as the "ultimate" and definitive vision of what should be done/how things should be, when fact is, most of HiveWorkshop would disagree with you, and a good part of the wc3 community would too.

The factual truth is that a lot of people don't mind the state of the game right now, especially that they're fixing things. Randomly re-adding 1.31 as a client with multiplayer would probably just divide people even more so than they already are, which is why Community Edition is a good middle-ground and a great effort at doing things right by the fans.

The good part is, 1.31 (and any past patch) are completely available for you and the fans to install and play on (they're free!), and multiplayer is easily available if you make your own server, host through a VPN, or any other kind of method. If you want to make a difference, then be the one to lead people to playing on those patches and create a community. That's what Warcraft III is about at the end of the day: community building.

Edit: Don't read into me leaving the server as anything else more than it is. I just got tired of having the same discussion weekly with you not trying to find any common ground for us to stand on. I hold nothing personally against you or DesignerDave.

Edit 2: Claiming I was blaming the fans is insane. I was blaming big clickbait YouTubers for spreading misinformation. Please don't make baseless accusations, especially not in a place like the forums.

 

[Homor]

but you also don't make room for any other opinions, and view your own as the "ultimate" and definitive vision of what should be done/how things should be

I've never claimed my opinion is the only/ultimate one. I simply stand by what I say because I believe it. I don't mean for it to come off as presumptuous or high-handed, I just have passion and argue for what I believe.

when fact is, most of HiveWorkshop would disagree with you, and a good part of the wc3 community would too.

Here's a big problem I have with what you're saying: you've immediately contradicted yourself. You tell me I'm the one being presumptuous and acting like my opinions are facts, and then you do exactly the same. You presume to speak for the majority and infer your take is the only correct one. You're doing exactly what you claim I'm doing. I don't think it's out of ill intent, I just think you have a skewed perspective on this.

I believe I'm right, you believe you're right, but we're both entitled to our own opinion and that's okay.

which is why Community Edition is a good middle-ground and a great effort at doing things right by the fans.

On that I fully agree with you. I 100% support CE and want to see it spread and succeed further. The point of this thread isn't to dismiss it, only to say that Blizzard should do something similar. Whether they will is quite unlikely, it's just what I firmly believe they should.

Randomly re-adding 1.31 as a client with multiplayer would probably just divide people even more so than they already are

That ship has sailed. You're never going to have everybody playing on one version of the game ever again. The kind of people who want to play on older versions don't want to play Reforged, and the people who like Reforged's new features won't want to roll back to older versions. It wouldn't further split the playerbase to have an officially supported alternative client, because the people who'd use it aren't the same people who are playing Reforged. IMO, "splitting the playerbase" isn't a concern.

The playerbase is already split because different people want different things from the game. That isn't a bad thing and it isn't a reason to dismiss the idea of a classic client outright. It's a pretty bad argument and I wish people would stop making it.

Don't read into me leaving the server as anything else more than it is.

Understandable. If you don't like what's being discussed in server or you're not interested in reading it, that's a perfectly valid reason to leave. I only bring it up because you brought it up.

But I find the fact that you brought it up in public in an unrelated community where people don't know the details about it very insulting. You probably didn't mean for it to come off that way, but it did.

Claiming I was blaming the fans is insane. I was blaming big clickbait YouTubers for spreading misinformation. Please don't make baseless accusations, especially not in a place like the forums.

The logic I see is this: "Clickbait YouTubers lied about something that made people hate Reforged more. People's misunderstanding made them more negative towards Reforged, and it caused Reforged to flop." You see how, from that perspective, it ultimately puts the blame on fans with the clickbait YouTubers as a middleman. That's the part I think was wrong.

In fairness, I could completely misunderstand your point. But that's why you don't air dirty laundry in unrelated places. The discussions aren't public here, so nobody else has the full context and can't judge for themselves. Our discord discussions should have never come up.

not trying to find any common ground for us to stand on.

We have common ground in that we both love the game and want what we think is best for it. Beyond that, we don't have to find a "middle ground." We can just agree to disagree.

I also don't want to argue with you constantly, and we don't have to. We can both just respect our differences and move on.

Why would they split their user base between two clients to be maintained?

This is a point I overlooked when it was brought up earlier, and I feel like I should address it now because I have a big problem with it. I also feel like it warrants its own post because I find it very important.

There's this idea that keeps coming up about "splitting the playerbase" or "dividing fans." I find it extremely wrong, but I wouldn't mind it so much except it's used as a reason to outright dismiss the idea of making a Classic Client. That Blizzard can't and shouldn't make it for that reason. It seems to be the #1 reason people want to take the discussion completely off the table to begin with, so I feel I have to refute it as strongly as I can.

The biggest problem with this argument is that it starts with what I find to be a false premise. Simply put: the playerbase is already "split." People have been playing different versions of the game on different clients for years now, even before Reforged. Heck, China, which has the most Warcraft 3 players in the world, has their own special client they use exclusively. Between that, Community Edition, and all the different patches, players have been "divided" between different versions of the game for years. Because the versions are often quite different, and people want different things from them. Things they can't get from the "main" game.

There will never be "just one" version of Warcraft 3 ever again.

But that isn't a bad thing.

There are multiple versions of games like Doom and Quake, and they're some of the most cherished and well loved games of all time with massive, loyal communities. There are multiple versions of Blizzard games like Diablo, Starcraft and even World of Warcraft itself. It's the standard practice for remasters and it should have been that way for Warcraft 3 from the very start. Reforged always should have been a separate client and the fact that it wasn't is a gross oversight.

The people who like Reforged's new features aren't going to leave it in a mass exodus if a Legacy client is made, and many people who don't like Reforged aren't going to be persuaded to suck up all their complaints/dislikes and just play it. Trying to corral everyone into a single version of the game will never work and will only further incite resentment and drive people away. "Shut up and accept the game the way it is" is a losing argument.

Making a classic client wouldn't fracture the community. In fact, I'd argue it'd bring it together more, because people wouldn't have to argue about what the main client "needs" to do or not do, because they'll always have the older version to fall back on.

There's also this talk about "maintaining" two clients, but that's also a misnomer IMO. For a Classic Client, not only would Blizz need to maintain it much less than the main one, they'd actually be incentivized to maintain it as little as possible, only to the point of basic functionality and stability, because the entire point is to preserve the classic experience and change as little as possible, outside of (theoretically) the smaller QoL features that came from 1.29.

 

[Retera]

which is a win for everyone.

Nope, for me I think it's kind of a loss, but that's because I was taking the weird strategy of trying to make my own rewrite of the game to take the place of the game, which in hindsight benefits from the game itself doing worse and less people wanting to play it.

Hive is far more inclined towards single-player content than Wc3 as a whole, since people who enjoy multiplayer do not need to go to communities to find maps/content to play

I was more under the impression that serious WC3 modding lately was more inclined towards single player content because Reforged increased the amount of "it only works on my computer" going on in the custom games community... you know... by breaking all kinds of stuff that worked for decades. Do you have a citable source for this reason why custom game sites might trend toward single player now?

Things like having multi-language translations within a single campaign file like in Re-Reforged or OutsiderXE's Lord of the Clans would have been unheard of 10 years ago

Pretty sure the old game supported this, but very few people knew about it or used it because Activision sat on the game's code for years and blocked people from knowing how it works. Then, they probably nuked the old system and broke the old features, then added back over again a new way to do the same thing. Is that really worthy of much praise, in anything other than some narrow-minded short term view?

FWIW the old system from 23 years ago in 2002 maps split out all text in custom maps and campaigns into string files, specifically so that you could have the same custom content load potentially different string files for different languages. Check it, war3map.wts is not something we should praise Reforged for inventing by any stretch of the imagination.

There are also numerous changes in the World Editor for quality-of-life stuff, though admittingly many of these changes already exist in 3rd party editors aimed at older versions of Wc3.

Maybe this is off topic but do you have a list? I kind of lost interest in official World Editor from 2022 onward, because of how they were so clearly okay with totally busting the official release product everyone bought and paid for via a DRM non-revertible update system so that if they break the previously working product, it's quite difficult to get the working version again. Imagine if you used Microsoft Word and then in 2015 they did an upgrade that had no revert option and after it was upgraded, you could still type documents but bold text crashed the program and lost all your progress. The way that Reforged stays alive is from an influx of new people where when we say, "But I was able to use bold text for 15 years, this product sucks" they get on and say "Bro nobody uses bold text, I don't use bold text, did that feature ever work? Get over yourself." Three years later if they introduced bold text back into Microsoft Word I wouldn't be like "wow, great product, they really care."

and multiplayer is easily available if you make your own server

Come on, man, since Patch 1.18 or so there has been aggressive DRM in the game to block the game from connecting to any server who doesn't respond with a crypo hash signature (like proving Blizzard is the owner of the bitcoin) that proves the server is one of the One True Servers. It's not EASILY AVAILABLE to make your own server when you have to use virusy technology to disassemble your game, which is probably not legal in some countries, and reconstitute version that ignores the crypographic signatures. Yes, Eurobattle whatever, Community Edition, and these other things exist by hacking the system like that. But it's not easy. Let's at least call it "possible" instead of "easy." Have you even tried?

I believe I'm right, you believe you're right, but we're both entitled to our own opinion and that's okay.

Well, maybe I believe that I'm more right than both of you.

The point of this thread isn't to dismiss it, only to say that Blizzard should do something similar.

So, Blizzard already hired the guy who made "Community Edition" and then they published Patch 1.29 that is getting used as the "Community Edition" and then he left their company and now is keeping on working on it or something like that, right? So, Blizzard already did do it. They're probably the reason it exists. If it weren't for Blizzard making what you call the "Community Edition" it would probably be a gross version with a stretched 4:3 resolution user interface like the WFE project is or was (I haven't used it in years). That's no disrespect to WFE -- the time taken to modify the game on the outside is maybe 100x the time to modify the game on the inside.

Doesn't change the fact that "Community Edition" is using stuff made on the inside.

There will never be "just one" version of Warcraft 3 ever again.

There never was. I was playing Warcraft 3 and I was having a good time, then Blizzard came in and ruined it with Patch 1.23 - 1.26 right as they were merging with Activision, and they made these Activision trash patches like 1.26 that ruined all the maps I played and like most of custom games. Just because you might be younger than me and you accepted Activision's "one true client" doesn't stop me from going back to play the original game on Patch 1.21 where the good maps everybody invested the time in creating actually work.

See, from my perspective, the people who accept 1.26 as the "just one" version of Warcraft 3 aren't holier than thou. They aren't actually necessarily right about it. I just find what they say entertaining because all things considered, I had a lot of fun on 1.26 and would have maybe enjoyed continuing on 1.26 instead of the Reforged timeline we got if I had the power to go back in time and knowingly pick one of the two. There aren't official servers for 1.26 and never will be, though, so this largely doesn't matter now.

But there was never "just one" version. If you felt there was, then you were choosing to see the world the same as how modern Reforged players see the world when they know in their heart that there's "just one" version of Warcraft III and that version is the latest Reforged 2.0.X patch. I reckon you made the choice to accept 1.26 (despite 1.26 and its patch cycle being the ones that crapped on my custom maps for years), that is the same choice Reforged players now make about whatever you think you liked or wanted to preserve from 1.26 or the early 1.30s. This is not hypothetical. This is my truth; I actually liked what I was working on back on 1.21-1.22, and it needed Vexorian's Caster System, and Vexorian vowed never to upgrade his Caster System for the new patch and instead to require players to use a new tool he made that breaks TOS and was incompatible with my project, just simply in order to keep working on the same maps.

There's this idea that keeps coming up about "splitting the playerbase" or "dividing fans."

So, from what I can tell, the corporate strategy employed on WoW classic in this regard is to discourage dividing the players among server providers but to encourage dividing the players among "Classic vs Retail" servers, precisely because the corporate strategy is to get the money from both groups of people for the same corporation. If you introduce a "Community Edition" to WoW, you'll probably get taken down or something. Doesn't bother me, I think some day I might try it anyway. But mine would probably be a Warcraft 3 map (like in that linked video).

I made a choice not to care about "dividing the playerbase" in 2018 after the Reforged announcement trailer after I came home from work after drinking alcohol and wrote up a planner about how I could use all the Hive modding tech to start a project to make my own game version that doesn't use any Blizzard game version's code, so that I could get that 100x benefit to upgrading the game like what Activision Microsoft holds over our heads with Reforged, to hamstring projects like Community Edition (despite your apparent praise for it). I find that I'm hard enough to deal with as it is. One guy asked me to play multiplayer in our divided interest group for my version a month ago, and I never found the time to schedule a game with him. Even if I put friends and family in the same room, they all just get on their phones. I couldn't probably get them to play Reforged multiplayer together unless I purchased my own fleet of PCs and Reforged licenses and set it all up and handed out PCs that were already in the game. Even then, they'd probably retreat to their phones and tablets.

So to be honest I make new versions of Warcraft III most of the time when I play it now. I actually almost never launch it from a binary. Instead I launch it from the latest version of the code with the latest changes, and if that makes the game so unstable that it crashes then I just fix the crash as soon as I see it.

And that means you, like, you plural, the people who play Reforged and 1.26 and stuff, or any of the Microsoft Activision-owned code versions, are the ones who I wish would see the light and realize that talking Microsoft Activision into making you a new client can't ever be the solution to the problem, because the problem is that they (not you) were deciding which new clients get made. I cannot conceive of them making a client that resolves this issue. As a result, if you want to solve the problem, go make the client that you want. It's the only solution I can see for you. Unfortunately, even the developers of Community Edition have chosen not to share the code for how their modifications to the game were made because they believe they need power over you, to stop you from making your own spinoff of "Community Edition" that might be distasteful to them to which I say, please, please go make a distasteful spinoff of my version. Or something. Get inspired.

Edit: And let me just say, this is not a hypothetical. They do make distasteful spinoffs of my version. How about this: Warsmash | F-Droid - Free and Open Source Android App Repository

I don't even know what that is. I didn't make or endorse that. Didn't need to. But someone made it. Isn't that cool? Now everyone can play a spinoff of my version (with a lot of bugs) on their Android phones. You guys all have phones, right? Do you guys not have phones?

 

[Homor]

Fantastic post, Retera! You clearly know your stuff

On a different note:

I've heard some people purpose that instead of making a Classic Client, Blizzard should just add more customization features to their main client so you can make it play more like classic, IE opting out of downloading HD assets, letting you change the settings around around to resemble and feel like the old game, etc.

I personally don't think that's a great solution because logic dictates that would actually be harder, more time-consuming and more expensive than making a separate client for classic. Because essentially, most of the work for the latter has already been done -- Community Edition gives a 1-for-1 template of what to do and, if what Retera suggested is true (not doubting you I just can't independently verify) Blizzard actually contributed to it themselves behind the scenes or helped along with it in some way. So naturally, I'd assume doing something like making a more polished version of Community Edition and putting it on their launcher would be easier and cheaper than making sweeping overhauls to the "main" game.

 

[Retera]

I personally don't think that's a great solution because logic dictates that would actually be harder, more time-consuming and more expensive than making a separate client for classic.

This intuition raises that very, very key question: what counts as a "classic client" for you? Last time I checked it was possible to download 1.27 from Battle.net still using an ftp backup link, even though their launcher app does not advertise this. In that regard, they already are giving you a classic client like you're asking.

But since you don't seem to care, it must mean you either want them to:

• advertise the 1.27 client that is available from them
• reconstruct a multiplayer server for the 1.27 client that is available from them
• offer downloads for a 1.3X pre-reforged patch instead (or maybe 1.29, something newer)

Although then you say

Community Edition gives a 1-for-1 template of what to do and, if what Retera suggested is true (not doubting you I just can't independently verify) Blizzard actually contributed to it themselves behind the scenes or helped along with it in some way.

To clarify my point, Blizzard contributed to the creation of 1.29 as a greatly enhanced version of 1.26+ that has Reforged-style quality of life increases to the game without Reforged-style butchering of the game's menu systems and self-marketing (i.e. it does not call itself Reforged, and does not show a web page, and fwiw it does not have AbilitySkin data bugs breaking gameplay)

To say that Community Edition gives a 1-for-1 template of what to do is also very interesting. Because Community Edition basically adds support for Reforged maps, and that's not a Classic thing to do..... also the part of Community Edition that wasn't made by Blizzard is not public, not open source, and might not be available for use to Microsoft's Blizzard themselves. So they don't have the actual technology template of how to accomplish it. Surely you just mean that "these features are what we want" which then requires the Microsoft Activision Blizzard corporate folks to actually reinvent all of those changes [which also might feel like waste of time to them]

 

[Homor]

If there's some code/assets Community Edition uses that Blizzard doesn't currently have access to, I hope the team would be kind enough to share in the event that Blizzard wanted to officially distribute it.

I choose Community Edition as an example because it seems to be the best of all worlds, at least for me, and seems to be the path of least resistance. It allows people to engage in new content while also preserving an older version of the game with QoL improvements. For me, a "Classic Client" wouldn't necessarily need to have its own multiplayer server, you'd just have to either allow crossplay with the main one or, failing that, you could just allow for LAN. Just as long as it has official support and distribution. Again, it wouldn't have to have a lot of official support, just enough to keep it in a stable state and then leave it alone.

It'd also be nice if it came with a World Editor that supported 1.31 maps because I was stupid enough to save many of my maps to that patch and now that I've downgraded to 1.29 I can't figure out how to downgrade them to, so I'm locked out >_< trapped in patch limbo oof.

 

[Retera]

For me, a "Classic Client" wouldn't necessarily need to have its own multiplayer server, you'd just have to either allow crossplay with the main one or, failing that, you could just allow for LAN

Isn't that the logical pitfall that led us here in the first place?

 

[Homor]

Isn't that the logical pitfall that led us here in the first place?

Not really. I don't think there was much logic at all behind many of the things implemented in Reforged because the team was five people hastily working in a short period with the smallest amount of money Blizzard could get away with paying them. I imagine the concern was less "what's the best way to do things?" and more "what can we do at all?"

 

[Pekisa7]

Well, considering that Microsoft Activision is holding the source code hostage from the community for the old 2003 game, they finished their "classic client" first a long time ago, in 2020, and it's called Reforged. So it seems like this Community Edition that you want to praise is years behind. Plus, whenever Reforged 2.0.4 comes out and changes the format of all maps and models, your "Community Edition" is still behind. They're always behind.

Imagine if the reverse happened. Imagined if "Community Edition" changed the format of all models and maps so that they only work on "Community Edition." Everybody online would just say the maps were broken. That's how it works in this one-way relationship.


Okay but they've already been supporting it. They started work on Reforged in 2018 and have been iterating on the classic client to support it for 7 years since then (in their perspective). Your decision to reject their Reforged Classic as your classic client, in their eyes, is a situation where the problem is you. They can't change that because if they make a mode, or a button, or a switch that plays Classic Mode but More Classically Than Classic Mode, then you'll just move the goalposts again and tell them it's not Classic but it's actually Reforged just playing the most Classical of Classic Modes ever created on Reforged.

How can they get you stop moving the goalposts? How would you, or I, or anybody else express to them what we actually want?


I'm more in this camp, I think that I'm a little bit out of touch with whether most people play the latest patch but I also kind of don't care. What I like to do is use Warcraft III as a creative outlet and as time goes on, that becomes harder to do. Reforged makes that harder to do. When I try to take steps to have more power over the situation so that as a creative I'm more the boss instead of Reforged, the world seems to push back. The ebb and flow results in me running tools and systems that use 1.26-based or 1.27-based stuff because I always want the basics to work, without question, where I'm in charge of stewarding that they do work. I think at some point my trust in the official system has started to decline enough that even if they fixed everything and it's great, I've been burned enough times that for me the difference between Classic and Reforged is that the Classic client doesn't have managers trying to "improve" or "fix" it. And because that's become the difference in my life, they definitionally cannot ever make it good. I don't see any solution that Microsoft could cook up that would fix it for me. I know what I want -- maybe I finally understand -- and I could spell it out very specifically, but they are never going to give it to me. And put simply, that thing which I want, is a C++ source code to patch 1.26 / 1.27 that is ported to run natively on Linux and OpenGL, using OpenAL for audio instead of Miles. And I want it to have no strings attached -- to obtain it, I should not be required to work for their company and to derive profits from the source code access, because for me the game is to have the "recompile with dorky new features" power, and the "git checkout last week's version and be sure it runs flawlessly" power. It's so simple, I can put that in a few sentence description. What I want actually could exist, and humans could build it, but they will not. We will not.

So because I want not only the Classic Client but actually this power to ensure it will always keep running by having source code access, I'm basically a troll now. I can't get on here and reach any agreement with you about the Classic client that I want, because I'm using a computer where 1.26 / 1.27 literally do not and can never run, because my computer has the wrong computer architecture / kernel. I need to recompile those programs for my computer to get them running, and Microsoft & friends aren't letting me.

(Yes, obviously Reforged also doesn't run on this computer, but that's beside the point.)

Those who want the old classic client aren't the problem. Thats rude from Blizzard's part to call someone that. Also we didn't want the Reforged mess to happen. So its not our fault.

 

[Retera]

Thats rude from Blizzard's part to call someone that.

To be fair, I'm not sure Blizzard actually called it that. But I was patronizing them based on how I think they feel, and it seems like then Reforged users tend to sort of agree with the sentiment I expressed.

I had 6 or 10 or so Activision employees ask me for help via Discord with Reforged in 2018-2019. In their mind, they were asking community what was wanted until about 1.31, then they made the Reforged they had to make for the big publicity or whatever and incorporated the 1.31 inside of it. Since they cannot distinguish between me and you, they're likely to feel they already went to great lengths to make an enhanced Classic client for "us."

 

[Pekisa7]

To be fair, I'm not sure Blizzard actually called it that. But I was patronizing them based on how I think they feel, and it seems like then Reforged users tend to sort of agree with the sentiment I expressed.

I had 6 or 10 or so Activision employees ask me for help via Discord with Reforged in 2018-2019. In their mind, they were asking community what was wanted until about 1.31, then they made the Reforged they had to make for the big publicity or whatever and incorporated the 1.31 inside of it. Since they cannot distinguish between me and you, they're likely to feel they already went to great lengths to make an enhanced Classic client for "us."

I understand. But why are Activision imployes working on Warcraft 3? Shouldn't they work on their games like Cod? Since they can't seem to understand the diffrence between "Classic" and "Reforged" why dosen't Blizzard hire the calassic team back? But Reforged keeps getting bugs every new patch. And people that hate warcraft 3 love the new bugs of Reforged. You know me I love Warcraft 3 its my favorite game and I wanted back the old version since 2020. But I understand that I can't do anything about it. Blizz decides. I am gonna give them a chance if they fix the damn thing. If not. Revert back please. I would be gratefull! Or just create two separate versions of the game. And patch classic to 1.32,onwards.

 

[Homor]

Today I was thinking again about this subject, and I was thinking back to the idea of "common ground" in this discussion. One common critique I get from people against this idea (as few of them as there seem to be) is that I won't find a "middle ground" with them. It's something I haven't really been too concerned with because I figure, if I disagree with you, I just disagree. Trying to force or fake some kind of agreement when there is none doesn't really help anybody.

But today I had a shower thought: Making a classic client is the middle ground. Because, if it came down to it, I'd be happy if Blizzard just erased Reforged completely and went back to updating the game from 1.31.

Obviously, that'd be a terrible deal for people who like the new features in Reforged, and the only way they could enjoy the game as they used to like it would be to play on archived patches. In other words, the exact same situation Preforged players have been dealing with for years at this point. I don't want this because I think it would be a bad deal for RF fans, but it's also exactly what classic fans have dealt with. But I can't say I wouldn't prefer it to the current status quo.

Essentially, having a separate client for classic is actually the middle ground between two potential extremes, and we're already living in the opposite extreme. So if it seems like I'm not super amenable to finding a compromise, it's because I already made one.

You know what you call a "middle ground" between your side and the middle? You call it "your side."

 

[Retera]

So if it seems like I'm not super amenable to finding a compromise, it's because I already made one.

What an extremist opinion, you want Warcraft III and its online play to be available, lol

 

[Pekisa7]

What an extremist opinion, you want Warcraft III and its online play to be available, lol

Why is it an extremist opinion? He just wants Blizzard to revert back to 1.31. I want that too. If you like reforged you like reforged. For those who want classic back and love classic . Let us have and fight for our classic version of the game. Peace.

 

[tulee]

Why is it an extremist opinion? He just wants Blizzard to revert back to 1.31. I want that too. If you like reforged you like reforged. For those who want classic back and love classic . Let us have and fight for our classic version of the game. Peace.

People who play "Reforged" are playing classic wc3. The vast majority of people who play on "Reforged" use classic graphics. They are both the same game.

 

[Pekisa7]

People who play "Reforged" are playing classic wc3. The vast majority of people who play on "Reforged" use classic graphics. They are both the same game.

I know. But I think Blizzard should just remove classic from reforged. I personally don't like the remaster.

 

[Retera]

He just wants Blizzard to revert back to 1.31. I want that too. If you like reforged you like reforged.

1.31 is the reforged game made by the reforged team though, which uses the reforged engine under the hood to provide the classic experience.

[Edit: 1.31 was so bad, and included in its patch notes "This is the last patch before Reforged branding" or whatever, that it was when I realized I should rebel and make the Warsmash rewrite for real. My rebellion started against 1.31 literally. These updates were terrible because of the opportunity cost of what they could have been]

Why is it an extremist opinion?

this is Hive, the number one best Reforged modding site in the western world. What are people who come onto a Reforged forum trying to play a different game "the Frozen Throne" if not extremists?

 

[Pekisa7]

1.31 is the reforged game made by the reforged team though, which uses the reforged engine under the hood to provide the classic experience.

this is Hive, the number one best Reforged modding site in the western world. What are people who come onto a Reforged forum trying to play a different game "the Frozen Throne" if not extremists?

1.31. ain't reforged. Better for them to return classic. But I know I can't do anything. Blizz decides if they wanna ruin the game even more. But thats just my opinion. Oh and frozen throne exists thats the orginal not reforged.

 

[Homor]

Why is it an extremist opinion? He just wants Blizzard to revert back to 1.31. I want that too. If you like reforged you like reforged. For those who want classic back and love classic . Let us have and fight for our classic version of the game. Peace.

I believe he was being facetious, hence the "lol".

I wouldn't "literally" want them to roll back to 1.31. I'd want them to roll back to it and fix it, or make a "new" 1.32. But this is all in a hypothetical scenario that I don't even think would be for the best. Community Edition shows that a legacy client that can run modern maps and even have crossplay is possible. There's really no good argument against Blizzard making one except for greed/incompetence on the part of Blizzard's executive branch.

 

[Pekisa7]

I believe he was being facetious, hence the "lol".

I wouldn't "literally" want them to roll back to 1.31. I'd want them to roll back to it and fix it, or make a "new" 1.32. But this is all in a hypothetical scenario that I don't even think would be for the best. Community Edition shows that a legacy client that can run modern maps and even have crossplay is possible. There's really no good argument against Blizzard making one except for greed/incompetence on the part of Blizzard's executive branch.

That's what I tought too by reverting back to 1.31 fixing that than make a .1.3.2. for classic.

 

[Footman16]

There is literally 0 incentive on Blizzard's part to do this. And as a user I also see little reason to see this as a good option or desirable one.

 

[Pekisa7]

There is literally 0 incentive on Blizzard's part to do this. And as a user I also see little reason to see this as a good option or desirable one.

I respect your opinion. But I still think its a good idea to release classic patch 1.3.2. . At least from my part.

 

[Homor]

There is literally 0 incentive on Blizzard's part to do this. And as a user I also see little reason to see this as a good option or desirable one.

Hard to see with your eyes closed. I think I laid out the reasons pretty well in this thread, and your response has pretty much amounted to "Nuh uh!"

You really haven't given any solid reasons why this would be a "bad" idea beyond "splitting the playerbase" which really isn't an issue at all, because again, the playerbase is already split and has been for years. If anything, allowing people to play on a Classic Client would bring back tons of players who split, and maybe convince a bunch more people to try Reforged know that they know the original game is preserved and readily available.

and again, "splitting the playerbase" by having different versions isn't really a concern because games like Doom and Quake have tons of different versions and their community is still huge and active. Giving players more options is healthy for a community and makes it grow.

 

[Footman16]

Honestly, I think you're the one with your eyes closed.

Why split the player-base? Why split the technical knowledge? Why split time and resources on two different versions? What does the latest version have that the classic version doesn't? As I said there is 0 incentive.

They have a current, working version of the game with all the old features and the new that they can work on, maintain and update. Why bother? Why care?

The reason you want this is because YOU are playing on the old classic client offline, you are coming at this from your own personal desires and not what makes the most sense for blizzard or whatever team is working on Warcraft 3. Occam's Razor needs to be applied here, why go through the extra effort to maintain, fork and create this new "old" classic client? Why bother? The latest version is there and being worked on and to them, there is 0 reason not to just stick with it.

 

[Pekisa7]

Honestly, I think you're the one with your eyes closed.

Why split the player-base? Why split the technical knowledge? Why split time and resources on two different versions? What does the latest version have that the classic version doesn't? As I said there is 0 incentive.

They have a current, working version of the game with all the old features and the new that they can work on, maintain and update. Why bother? Why care?

The reason you want this is because YOU are playing on the old classic client offline, you are coming at this from your own personal desires and not what makes the most sense for blizzard or whatever team is working on Warcraft 3. Occam's Razor needs to be applied here, why go through the extra effort to maintain, fork and create this new "old" classic client? Why bother? The latest version is there and being worked on and to them, there is 0 reason not to just stick with it.

I don't like reforged. The "old" is better. Just add the features of reforged except hd classic graphics and thats it. I don't think its that hard. And i care about War 3 its my favorite game and I want it back to its old state. And to updated to 1.3.2. onwards.

 

[Homor]

They have a current, working version of the game with all the old features and the new that they can work on, maintain and update. Why bother? Why care?

I just explained it earlier in the thread. Reforged is radically different from TFT in tons of ways, not just in all the new content but in all the old content they changed, all the features I don't use, all the extra data, the balance changes, the various system changes -- it isn't the "classic" experience at all. It's a new experience built on top of the old one.

It's like saying WoW Classic and WoW Retail are the same game.

People don't want to download 30gb and upgrade their PCs to play a 20 year old game. People who want to play a 20 year old game want to play it as close to its original state as possible, with maybe a few QoL improvements and better functioning on modern hardware.

You're not going to convince anyone that Reforged and Classic are the same experience and it's a waste of time to try. We can see the difference with our own eyes.

Trying to shove Reforged down people's throats will never work and only foster more resentment.

Why split the player-base? Why split the technical knowledge? Why split time and resources on two different versions?

Again, I've responded to all of these points in the thread. I guess you haven't been reading. I don't blame you because the thread is kind of long and if I knew these points would come up repeatedly, I would have just listed and refuted them in the OP.

Splitting "time, resources and technical knowledge" is of minimal concern because the scope of the project would actually be quite small. Community Edition has already come really close with very limited resources itself. Blizzard just taking it, polishing it up and allowing you to download it on their own launcher would be relatively simple and require minimal updates. Think of how 1.26 wasn't updated for years and was pretty much the "final" patch for a while -- that's how you would treat the classic client shortly after release.

and as for "splitting the playerbase", I explained my stance on that in the post above. The playerbase is already split and has been for years, and if anything having a separate classic client would only bring more people back to the community who were disenfranchised by the changes RF made.

 

[General Frank]

I just explained it earlier in the thread. Reforged is radically different from TFT in tons of ways, not just in all the new content but in all the old content they changed, all the features I don't use, all the extra data, the balance changes, the various system changes -- it isn't the "classic" experience at all. It's a new experience built on top of the old one.

It's like saying WoW Classic and WoW Retail are the same game.

People don't want to download 30gb and upgrade their PCs to play a 20 year old game. People who want to play a 20 year old game want to play it as close to its original state as possible, with maybe a few QoL improvements and better functioning on modern hardware.

You're not going to convince anyone that Reforged and Classic are the same experience and it's a waste of time to try. We can see the difference with our own eyes.

Trying to shove Reforged down people's throats will never work and only foster more resentment.


Again, I've responded to all of these points in the thread. I guess you haven't been reading. I don't blame you because the thread is kind of long and if I knew these points would come up repeatedly, I would have just listed and refuted them in the OP.

Splitting "time, resources and technical knowledge" is of minimal concern because the scope of the project would actually be quite small. Community Edition has already come really close with very limited resources itself. Blizzard just taking it, polishing it up and allowing you to download it on their own launcher would be relatively simple and require minimal updates. Think of how 1.26 wasn't updated for years and was pretty much the "final" patch for a while -- that's how you would treat the classic client shortly after release.

and as for "splitting the playerbase", I explained my stance on that in the post above. The playerbase is already split and has been for years, and if anything having a separate classic client would only bring more people back to the community who were disenfranchised by the changes RF made.

Radically different?
Barely.
I play with Classic graphics and beside some know bugs that came with Reforged, the experience is 99% the same.
Some of the changes are good. I like having the cooldown timer on abilities, real widescreen and sleeker UI.

'People' don't want a measly 30GB download or do you not want to do that. Hiding yourself behind a 'for the masses' strawman argument is kinda lame.
If you own the old version of wc3 you can just register it.
But if you one of the people that never owned the game in the first place then your ranting and raving is kinda misplaced as your opinion is useless and input meaningless.

 

[Homor]

But if you one of the people that never owned the game in the first place then your ranting and raving is kinda misplaced as your opinion is useless and input meaningless.

Okay, Frank? I respect you a lot as a creator but I'm actually pretty disgusted you said this to me.

I have owned Warcraft 3. I still have the CDs for ROC and TFT. I've been a loyal fan and paying customer of WC3 for decades and only refunded my CD Key when I no longer had official access to the original games I paid for. You trying to accuse me of piracy as a way to insult me and offhand dismiss what I'm saying as "worthless" and "meaningless" is rude, ignorant, arrogant, condescending and stunningly immature.

I'm willing to engage with the rest of your arguments in good faith because I actually have a lot to say to them, but I won't humor any further discussion with you until you apologize for being disrespectful. If you don't then sadly, I'm going to have to treat you like I would any troll and ignore you.

 

[General Frank]

Okay, Frank? I respect you a lot as a creator but I'm actually pretty disgusted you said this to me.

I have owned Warcraft 3. I still have the CDs for ROC and TFT. I've been a loyal fan and paying customer of WC3 for decades and only refunded my CD Key when I no longer had official access to the original games I paid for. You trying to accuse me of piracy as a way to insult me and offhand dismiss what I'm saying as "worthless" and "meaningless" is rude, ignorant, arrogant, condescending and stunningly immature.

I'm willing to engage with the rest of your arguments in good faith because I actually have a lot to say to them, but I won't humor any further discussion with you until you apologize for being disrespectful. If you don't then sadly, I'm going to have to treat you like I would any troll and ignore you.

Not at all. But many people do cry and moan that their pirated version iss no longer working. I did not intend to accuse you, but you don't have jump to conclusions that fast.

But I have a feeling that you seem very agitated and maybe not willing to listen what most people saying and said to you in the past.
Just give the new version a try if you have the CD keys.

EDIT: Also: It was always my opinion that if you don't own the game legally you have nothing of value to say.
It i disrespectful to the community and to the people who actually own the game to pirate the game and then ask for things in said community.

 

[Footman16]

I just explained it earlier in the thread. Reforged is radically different from TFT in tons of ways, not just in all the new content but in all the old content they changed, all the features I don't use, all the extra data, the balance changes, the various system changes -- it isn't the "classic" experience at all. It's a new experience built on top of the old one.

It's really not. Sure there's some changes but the vast majority are improvements that people like the melee scene asked for and recently we've been getting WE improvements.

It's like saying WoW Classic and WoW Retail are the same game.

They're close enough and WoW Classic adds tons of QoL.

People don't want to download 30gb and upgrade their PCs to play a 20 year old game. People who want to play a 20 year old game want to play it as close to its original state as possible, with maybe a few QoL improvements and better functioning on modern hardware.

Again, YOU don't want to download 30GB.

You're not going to convince anyone that Reforged and Classic are the same experience and it's a waste of time to try. We can see the difference with our own eyes.

I've played through the campaigns on both, it's close enough to be not noticeable.

Trying to shove Reforged down people's throats will never work and only foster more resentment.

I'm not trying to shove Reforged down your throat but merely try to convince you of the futility of what you're asking.

Splitting "time, resources and technical knowledge" is of minimal concern because the scope of the project would actually be quite small. Community Edition has already come really close with very limited resources itself. Blizzard just taking it, polishing it up and allowing you to download it on their own launcher would be relatively simple and require minimal updates. Think of how 1.26 wasn't updated for years and was pretty much the "final" patch for a while -- that's how you would treat the classic client shortly after release.

1.26 had it's issues though. Also do you work in software development or engineering? Community edition is made by people who have modded and worked with Warcraft 3 for years maybe even 2 decades at most that's tons of experience and knowledge. Any blizzard team will not have that same experience or time reference. Also suggesting Blizzard just take these people's work is a bit... off? There could be some agreement but I think blizz just "yoinking" folks work is pretty bad. I think you're underestimating the work involved, or what it would entail.

and as for "splitting the playerbase", I explained my stance on that in the post above. The playerbase is already split and has been for years, and if anything having a separate classic client would only bring more people back to the community who were disenfranchised by the changes RF made.

The player base isn't as split as you think. The vast majority of players play on latest besides specific communities like China who have their own version.

 

[General Frank]

Dismissing the 30gb update as "measly" shows an inability to see things from the other perspective. 30gb of data is not "measly" to many people, especially for an older game that was originally only 5. For some people, resources are limited and data space is precious. The principle alone is enough to oppose it because forcing someone to download a massive amount of data they didn't even ask for and won't even use is very bad, but for all the people who were playing on older systems and laptops who were suddenly unable to play the game they paid for, it's downright unethical

Unethical? No.
Going with time and not thinking that people still use pentium 2s and Windows XP is just better for business and software. It is unethical to rely on weird security loopholes to make games be playable on very old hardware. Times are changing.

Blizzard should have just released the source code years ago. Id Software and even EA Games did with their games and it only improve the community.

 

[deepstrasz]

Some just want to stay in the past. It's like keeping magical thinking, because deus ex machina, over evolving science.

 

[Homor]

Unethical? No.
Going with time and not thinking that people still use pentium 2s and Windows XP is just better for business and software. It is unethical to rely on weird security loopholes to make games be playable on very old hardware. Times are changing.

Games like Doom and Quake have done a great job preserving the older versions of their games and not terribly bloating the software or hardware requirements. There's a clear balance you can strike and Blizzard failed to strike it imo.

Blizzard should have just released the source code years ago. Id Software and even EA Games did with their games and it only improve the community.

Now on that we agree completely people could do some awesome stuff with the source code. Of course, if "splitting the playerbase" is a concern that would be a nuclear option because you'd have theoretically infinite versions of WC3. But I don't think that'd be much of a problem, personally.

Some just want to stay in the past. It's like keeping magical thinking, because deus ex machina, over evolving science.

Not at all. It's not about staying in the past, it's about preserving and remembering it. There's a reason we don't paint over famous paintings, rewrite old books, etc. 80% of classic games are out of print and many of them are unplayable, and this is obscene. Doing your best to preserve art as it was is foundational to progress, not opposed to it.

I'm sure there are tons of people who think the Mona Lisa could be "improved", but once you change it, it isn't the Mona Lisa, and the original meaning and value of the work is lost.

 

[deepstrasz]

Not at all. It's not about staying in the past, it's about preserving and remembering it. There's a reason we don't paint over famous paintings, rewrite old books, etc. 80% of classic games are out of print and many of them are unplayable, and this is obscene. Doing your best to preserve art as it was is foundational to progress, not opposed to it.

Well, you have your CDs. The game is there, play it the way it was first made then, unbesmirched.

 

[Homor]

Well, you have your CDs. The game is there, play it the way it was first made then, unbesmirched.

Already addressed this earlier in the thread: yes, you can play on older patches if you know what technical hoops to jump through, and that's a good thing. But Blizzard can and should do more to support the Classic Version and there's no good reason they shouldn't.

Just like how you could play Classic WoW on a private server years ago if you knew the technical hoops to jump through, but Blizzard and, should have and ultimately did do more.

It really isn't an extreme or abrasive opinion at all, and I'm surprised by the level of vitriol it seems to bring out in some people.

 

[deepstrasz]

Already addressed this earlier in the thread: yes, you can play on older patches if you know what technical hoops to jump through, and that's a good thing. But Blizzard can and should do more to support the Classic Version and there's no good reason they shouldn't.

Just like how you could play Classic WoW on a private server years ago if you knew the technical hoops to jump through, but Blizzard and, should have and ultimately did do more.

Sadly they shouldn't. They should only go on about their business. Buying the game then didn't guarantee it would work on every new OS or computer the future would bring.
While it would be nice for such diehards like you for the game to get something like its GoG version, that's just wishful thinking when obviously there's still something to be made for Warcraft III than put it in the museum.

 

[Homor]

Buying the game then didn't guarantee it would work on every new OS or computer the future would bring.

Actually, that's kind of exactly what it means. Buying a product and owning it almost always means it'll work in perpetuity as you originally bought it, or at least they'll try their best to keep it running, and you'll have the right to maintain and repair it as you please. Like if a company shuts down their official game servers, they should give you the option to set up dedicated servers so you can still play the game. If I paid for a chair, and 20 years later the company came in and turned it into a stool with legs I couldn't even use on my floor, that would be considered unacceptable.

That's what the recent "Stop Killing Games" movement has been all about, and I've fully supported it and promoted it as best I could.

 

[deepstrasz]

@Shar Dundred yeah, things changed for the better since then.

Actually, that's kind of exactly what it means. Buying a product and owning it almost always means it'll work in perpetuity as you originally bought it, or at least they'll try their best to keep it running, and you'll have the right to maintain and repair it as you please. Like if a company shuts down their official game servers, they should give you the option to set up dedicated servers so you can still play the game. If I paid for a chair, and 20 years later the company came in and turned it into a stool with legs I couldn't even use on my floor, that would be considered unacceptable.

Comparing software to material things like furniture is wrong. The game was made to work on the OSs of those days and sold with that in mind. There is absolutely no legal drive to force a company to make their game work forever on OSs which are not even made by them.
So while it would be nice from some narrow perspective to do what you want, it's ultimately wishful thinking.

EDIT: but if you still want to compare it with furniture, then any product doesn't have infinite or even a lifetime warranty. It would mean costing the producer more than the buyer over time.