Numbers & Circumstances

[Chaosy]

I wanted to bring up two topics for discussion.

Firstly, it concerns the number of troops a faction have at its disposal.

To me it seems like most in the group think a factions got thousands of each troop type. According to history and most fantasy works actually, this has never been the case.
A nobleman had a few dozen knights at most. While the monarch commanded a few hundred.
Large villages had a garrison of half a dozen at best, if any.

The other topic is a bit hard to title.
During medieval times, the parents often decided the work of their children. If you were born a noble, the likelyhood of becoming a knight were high despite what the child wanted or had talent for. Thus while someone commanded 20 knights, a third were likely knights in name only making them quite useless in battle.

A similar situation can be said for the common soldier, most soldiers were not patriots. They were simple men who needed money, they did not take their duties seriously and they did certainly not act honorably. During their watch during the night they'd likely sit and play games with one-another while drinking.
Same while on guard duty, if they turn a blind eye to things they wont have to bother with that.

TLDR; the number of troops used in our RP is too high and most of those few that exist were not that good soldiers.

 

[Edge45]

Lol, I thought of this after watching GoT.
Regarding the first, It has always have been within RACC, even I have countless ones during last RP's. Probably because it takes a lot of soldiers to attack, while defending their homes. Plus, main characters or other characters, depending on their power or opness, can take a lot of your soldiers, making the RPers have countless.

Let's say A startes RPing, he deploys his 800 soldiers, and is going to attack B. Now he attacks with 500, but B succesfully defends and counters with more than 5000. That with B having more soldiers, will hesitate A to, of course, if he doesn't want to lose, calls for reinforcements, I'd say, more than 5000. And the cycle begins.

 

[Cherrymage]

About this...

If we talk about medieval times, maybe you're right about this. However Flames of War has become Science Fantasy. I've played Darkest Hour and each commander commands a division (consisting of 10,000 or 20,000). A division usually occupies one area (but others may clump together, but some chaos or disorganization will happen unless some HQ units are there). And these divisions can move, even clump together in one area (but leaving other areas vulnerable), but slow as hell especially for infantry divisions (unless you have some fancy techs and great infrastructures along the way, even so they are still somewhat slow).

(EDIT: And if I got it right, each division also has its troops spread out in sub-areas within a region. And moving the troops will sometimes cause opening which others could exploit. I just forgot to write about these, sorry.)

I think the same should be applied for forces in RACC roleplays.

Some factions have progressed in terms of thoughts and minds. For instance, in the Pherith Empire, it's not parents who decided their job anymore, but the government (and rarely the child himself). The schools and the ministry decided what each child's job would be, usually based on their talents and jobs.

However, miscalculation occurs (maybe the officials and teachers were sleeping) and quite many a number of people got assigned to wrong directions. Or when the Pherith Empire is in serious need of each troop type, they will desperately draft random people inside.

Most of the soldiers were brainwashed by propaganda since birth, to be fierce patriots. However, in my opinion I think they can be distracted by the vices (lust, wrath, sloth, greed, pride, etc.) Remember most of the former soldiers of Pherithian space force revolted after some stupid general sacked all of them at once, and quite a large number of people rebelled because the economy is seriously fucked up.

 

[Chaosy]

@Edge
1. Which makes it boring, if both sides have endless troops it's also a battle that never ends. Things like strategy is useless as well. Directive is fighting on 3-ish fronts at the moment, if another one were to attack him right now he'd still summon defenders, likely able to hold of my full army. (this is not to bash on Directive, his circumstances just happen to fit atm)

2. Seems logical. And also wrong.
This is where strategy and terrain should reign, sadly it's not the case in RACC roleplay.

@Directive
1. That's just insane. Even if we're speaking modern time, do each village have a hundred military units on patrol?
Where I live (Sweden) our national army got 15000 units (persons) or something.
And the area I live in got roughly 75 000 citizens. How many military units are here? 0
How many police cars are on patrol? 2-3 at best and maybe a two dozen police men that can shoot/fight in the whole area. Meanwhile in RACC every village got a military might greater than my country.

If someone commits a crime it'll likely take 20 minutes before police arrives due them being spread out. (according to my experience this is more like a matter of seconds in RACC)

Regardless, say I am wrong and you're right and it makes sense to have endless troops. Isn't it an unfair advantage compared to fantasy factions? Rather than fantasy's number of troops being boosted isn't it better to reduce the number of troops to begin with? Because the troops have 0 value if you got an endless amount.
If I ambush Daffa's troops and kill 100 of them without me losing a single unit, that should be a huge win for me. But as it stands more units will magically fill the void.
I might as well just stop trying.

2. Even patriots would get bored. After all one can't stare into the night for 8 hours for a year without neglecting his duties. He'd eventually become more casual and pay less attention.

 

[Cherrymage]

1. That's just insane. Even if we're speaking modern time, do each village have a hundred military units on patrol?
Where I live (Sweden) our national army got 3000 units (persons) or something. And all of those are not soldiers, some may be tank drivers sub-machine drivers etc.
And the area I live in got roughly 75 000 citizens. How many military units are here? 0
How many police cars are on patrol? 2-3 at best

Not I'm saying each village, just the border and "red alert" areas. But you were sort of right, troops aren't supposed to be everywhere. Though my subconscious mind thought like that before you brought this up. Unless the faction is a police country or heavily militarized country (Pherith Empire is closer to police country, public police and secret police are common sight but not too much and military units are rather uncommon. A few platoons of police are paramilitary though, but the rest are the common ones you find in street).

And if I got it right, each division also has its troops spread out in sub-areas within a region. I just forgot to write about this, sorry. It would take time to have some groups from the division to come together.

If someone commits a crime it'll likely take 20 minutes before police arrives due them being spread out. (according to my experience this is more like a matter of seconds in RACC)

I never thought so much about this. Sometimes police arrives fast due to close proximity. But if a crime happens in a faraway and silent area or there is hard terrain on the way, I think this would take hours for them to come.

Regardless, say I am wrong and you're right and it makes sense to have endless troops. Isn't it an unfair advantage compared to fantasy factions? Rather than fantasy's number of troops being boosted isn't it better to reduce the number of troops to begin with? Because the troops have 0 value if you got an endless amount.
If I ambush Daffa's troops and kill 100 of them without me losing a single unit, that should be a huge win for me. But as it stands more units will magically fill the void.
I might as well just stop trying.

Yes, but one thing: You've confused medieval with fantasy. Pherith Empire is also a fantasy faction since it also employs some extent of magics, but they prefer more technology than magics. Simply said, Pherith Empire is more technological than fantasy.

And there wan't any combat system nor ways to balance a combat, so it depends on the roleplayers. I will try to make realistic results of a combat, with combat losses and all that stuffs. We need something to balance the combat, but how?

2. Even patriots would get bored. After all one can't stare into the night for 8 hours for a year without neglecting his duties. He'd eventually become more casual and pay less attention.

Yes, you're right. I have a question -- what if the troops were also entertained by various specific means (not always but occasionally)? Training with selected and varied combat video games or simulations (which not only brings fun but also train the troops in the meanwhile), some shows by volunteers and even some

Spoiler

fun with whores

?

I think we can also employ psychological tactics to bring the morale down.

 

[Chaosy]

I edited my last post slightly, I had the military number wrong according to google.

 

[Cherrymage]

I also edited my last post, to reply for more things I missed.

 

[Chaosy]

I can understand that war-zones are quite guarded, but to my experience everything is guarded. To date, I don't think I've seen a single army have managed to attack another RPers land without being met with equal force at the border. Despite them technically having the moment of surprise. Scouts can alert their superiors but it would take too long to assemble an army and then bring it there, so that's technically BS.
Some have taken a bit of time into consideration and not arrived with the major army at first. However the first village encountered had always had a guard large enough to stalemate while waiting.

I never thought so much about this. Sometimes police arrives fast due to close proximity. But if a crime happens in a faraway and silent area or there is hard terrain on the way, I think this would take hours for them to come.

Seems reasonable. I was mainly talking about crime in the city.
My point was that RACC cities and villages seems to be watched by FBI on full alert, you can't kill a single soldier in a stealthy manner without getting the authorities after you within seconds. (okay, fine. This is a little biased thanks to me visiting your empire earlier (not with Aedari, the other ones))

Yes, but one thing: You've confused medieval with fantasy. Pherith Empire is also a fantasy faction since it also employs some extent of magics, but they prefer more technology than magics. Simply said, Pherith Empire is more technological than fantasy.

And there wan't any combat system nor ways to balance a combat, so it depends on the roleplayers. I will try to make realistic results of a combat, with combat losses and all that stuffs. We need something to balance the combat, but how?

In my world, science fiction is not fantasy. Though I admit that this might be subjective and wont bash you for thinking differently than me in that regard.

It does indeed depend on the roleplayers, especially because Daffa put very light restrictions on the RP (which I was against from the start, might I add).


As a last note; I am sorry for bring shit like this up. I just come from a more hardcore RP community and thus I am used to certain things. Quite frankly you'd be ignored by the community as a whole if you ignored stuff like this.
A RP fight back then consisted of 25% IC RP and 75% debate regarding if the details were legit or not.

 

[Cherrymage]

I'll try to tone down the military presence (but war-zones and key areas are still being closely watched), and to be more realistic in situations like this. I played maps in C&C games and the units and all stuffs are very face-paced, so I am maybe a bit misguided when reacting to combat situations.

My point was that RACC cities and villages seems to be watched by FBI on full alert, you can't kill a single soldier in a stealthy manner without getting the authorities after you within seconds. (okay, fine. This is a little biased thanks to me visiting your empire earlier (not with Aedari, the other ones))

Not all of them. Remember there's still black markets and the initial Pazi uprising was going unnoticed for moments?

But still, you're not supposed to kill any elite guards watching over an area of utter importance without alerting the authorities. That area is simply too important because this is where the central headquarters lies.

As a last note; I am sorry for bring shit like this up. I just come from a more hardcore RP community and thus I am used to certain things. Quite frankly you'd be ignored by the community as a whole if you ignored stuff like this.
A RP fight back then consisted of 25% IC RP and 75% debate regarding if the details were legit or not.

Here in RACC, we are used to light rules and relaxed environment.
What other stuffs do we need to pay attention to make things more real?

(RP fights (and dramas) also happened in the early roleplays of RACC, check the first dozen of page out?)

 

[Chaosy]

There is a difference between them noticing and them chasing after the killer and being on the scene within that time.

 

[Cherrymage]

There is a difference between them noticing and them chasing after the killer and being on the scene within that time.

Perhaps the helicopters and vehicles are a bit too fast, but the nearest troops over there will obviously chase them as fast as they can, unless they're slowed

 

[WhiteFang]

I would give my opinion,but since I haven't been active in the RP lately it may not be appropriate

 

[Chaosy]

WF, that's dull.
Since you used to RP, your opinion is valid.

 

[WhiteFang]

I meant I don't know the current circumstances,so I do not know if my opinion is still valid.I'm sure things have changed since I stop.
I can't just charge in and say "hurr hurr I do not like this infinite troops that are everywhere business because it causes wars to be endless and eliminates the point of strategy.However,it won't be fun if all your troops are dead either so we need to find a balance"



oh shit.

 

[Edge45]

Fuck, I ended up reading thrice again for not getting it.

Anyway, sometime in the middle pages of FoW, I've realize that having a lot of soldiers, characters and stuffs confuses you, together with other RPers conflicting against you, plus on your changing activeness. You'll lose yourself the general view of proper RPing, terrains, areas, numbers, strategy, etc. (That's why I once lost motivation to RP and control Legranda, leading me to a less character control)
Honestly though,
I was expecting the others to have a very clever, cunning and serious view of RPing before FoW started, plus maybe more members to join, but things don't seem to be as we expected sometimes.

 

[Chaosy]

@WF
RP is not always about war, that's the thing. If we value troops properly the RP would feel more unique since it's not about full out war 24/7
RACC's scope is too small.

There are two things I want to point out regarding that.

• Even if there is not war, there are violence related events that could take place. Two countries could host a hunting contest, the one with the biggest prey wins.
• You can RP very simple and typical things, in WoW one day IRL represent one day in game (going by server time). Thus you carry out everyday lives with the RP. I've RPed "truth or dare" with a dozen guild mates, I have been exploring unknown forest for the sake of fun etc.
  At one point we even RPed a wedding for one of our guild members.
  
  img

  

  
  

  

@Edge
I applaud you for that. We control entire factions but we're not thinking well enough to properly use it.
Every choice we make have hundreds of consequences, this is ignored by RACC. Me included, because no one can do it perfectly. However, I try to not ignore it. I try to think what the masses would think of my character's decisions.

but things don't seem to be as we expected sometimes.

It's what you make it. I can get fairly hardcore when it comes to RP BUUUT, then it also comes with debate because I will question your every action. That's the main downside of WoW RP, 25% RP 75% debate

 

[Cherrymage]

Anyway, we must do something to improve.

To balance the complicated RP, we have to introduce great systems -- at least the military and strategy balance, but when we have time we can also take economy, terrains and all others into consideration, but let's deal with them later coz' they are a little complicated.

We have to first, make a really detailed map of Jupiter/Jupradus together (the terrains, what can be harvested there, environment etc.) for tactical and strategical purposes as well as for the economic systems in the RP. We can try to implement databases of our militaries into a Warcraft III map, for some sort of combat system and we'll talk and work about balance at the same time.

As for the numbers and troop deployments, the first thing we can do is to try to make it as balanced and reasonable as possible.

We can make a useful combat system or way later. For example, the results of each battle can be determined by playing a specifically-made Warcraft III map, using our specifically-made databases we mentioned earlier. However this would be a bit... strange due to each players having different levels of thinking while their generals were either supposed to be smart. Also not all people have good internet or access to Battle.net and other online platforms. But still, this is a great way to determine success of a battle.

We should also make some interactive and detailed map showing where are the armed forces and police stationed at, and the status of each province/area (like how they did it in the Darkest Hour game).

EDIT: @Chaosy: Yeah, things could be more interesting and lively when seemingly small details like these are included. Every little detail makes a story interesting (but not boring info dumps). Those little details and backstory in the manual are also what makes the story and atmosphere of Warcraft I interesting.

And you're somewhat right, if everything is always about war then we would be tired and bored. We need other stuffs to make things interesting. Some good war stories not only focus on the battles, but also personal interactions between the characters and their relationships too.

Perhaps I can show aspects of Azlariah's daily life.

 

[Chaosy]

I like the direction you're going Directive, sadly that sounds very complicated (all of it together at least).

edit:
It's impossible to make a detailed enough map. You can say the north russia in Jupiter is covered by a forest.
Sure, but what we don't know is, are there hills, caves? There are dozens of such details that will only be shown on a very zoomed in local map.

Perhaps we should have made the world much much smaller.

 

[Cherrymage]

Edited last post.

Yeah, it is complex, but have we found another simpler yet effective way to reduce the balance and number issues?

EDIT:

It's impossible to make a detailed enough map. You can say the north russia in Jupiter is covered by a forest.
Sure, but what we don't know is, are there hills, caves? There are dozens of such details that will only be shown on a very zoomed in local map.

Perhaps we should have made the world much much smaller.

We can get some copy of Darkest Hour and mod it to suit our RP. The map in Darkest Hour tells you what's the general terrain in an area, but the areas shown in the Darkest Hour map isn't too detailed, though.

 

[Chaosy]

Yeah, to summarize you want a battle simulator in a wc3 map that will decide battles automatically?
Economics may be included as well.

I made a quick google search regarding the map, it seems good but not perfect. Depends a little on how detailed this info given is, I have my doubts it'll be perfectly accurate since one zone on the map still covers a few miles.

 

[Cherrymage]

Yes, still takes time to implement though. It'll be more complex if we include stuffs like Geo Effects, though.

It'll not be perfectly accurate, but you can view most details (the regions being colored differently based on what you want to see -- a faction's theme colors on the areas it controls, various colors on areas of different terrain, and also status of economics and weather, etc.)

 

[Chaosy]

Does not include tactics either.
A sentinel (night elf) may lose to a human footman one on one if they were to fight. However the night elf would not brawl with a armored footman, they would run past them with supreme movement speed and head for the backline (archers) where they would be more effective.

Of course you could set up certain tactics by code but they would be limited and not adapt to circumstances.

 

[Leo Akastenix]

Hmm.. question.. Have any way to limit my troops as i am sending them through portals from other worlds?

 

[Chaosy]

That's up to you.
If you really wanted you could just say a certain world would run out of a certain species to summon.

 

[Edge45]

So, our discussion here, does it gonna affect the RP?
Still waiting for Daffa to post on his opinion.
Btw, I seem to enjoy this discussion more than the RP itself.

 

[Chaosy]

I cannot enforce it.
I can merely try to highlight the issues and hope people will adapt.

That's quite funny actually, I can DM something for you if you want to keep you entertained.

 

[WhiteFang]

Where is Daffa?DAFFA!!

 

[Edge45]

That's quite funny actually, I can DM something for you if you want to keep you entertained.

We'll have a talk with that via VM

 

[Daffa]

Well, this entire thread give me nuts on my head (partially cuz midnight here).

Guess things stabs me heh, hahaha.
Yeah, this matter hasn't been COMPLETELY under radar since the day RACC was born (Devin used to enforce these stuffs, but I don't recall being very strict about). I recall Devin, Darko and some old fellas here used to have more rational numbers than me and some other newcomers.

Well, I would say we could use whatever Directive and Chaosy was suggesting by end of page 2, but simulating a battle would be quite difficult, and only raw strength counts. If you really want to create several Warcraft 3 maps just for simulation purposes, then I would say it'll take dozens to finish, and I doubt that'll be fun. But still, I don't mind.

I am practicing this entire concept actually with Oceania. Given the spreadout of the entire area, I just use unconcise number to ensure people get a rough estimations, but I see that failing (eg. Water Jets can't be like billions in total, only hundreds at most).

Well, keeping an accurate number would be difficult, given the fact that the number can be thousands or even "better", millions. I can't say 1.456.237 citizens in total now, can I? Woudl be difficult to count in precision. However, simulators can fix that for us tho.

So, our discussion here, does it gonna affect the RP?

It depends, since everyone actually participating the RP also participate here, I think we could apply it. It depends on the players, and I'm not a really good DM either (a shitty one, I'd say myself).

 

[Chaosy]

Well I've only been around since the last half of #2 so I can't speak earlier than that.

Indeed an accurate number may be annoying, at least when it comes to high numbers. And I also understand that keeping track of your overall troop strength my be difficult.

HOWEVER, one can do it in moderation without too much trouble. Maybe not have a billion soldiers on constant guard duty.
And after losing a large battle somewhere, you'd likely not engage in another one within years. Because the army is weakened.

 

[Edge45]

Yep, just like GoT a'ight.

Anyway, I've been around in the ol' days and observe that it doesn't really matter what numbers they have because their characters can overwhelm them with power (that's what the OP rules made for). But I'd say since some of them accept defeat, they will move on with their army, regardless of numbers, plus majority of them used major events and controls evil factions to fight their own faction, with countless troops. So its no suprise that they will have also countless.

Layin siege with 2000, when somebody attacks your home, and your main army was layin siege, you will rush all your army back to your home, if not, just half of them. But the attackers are more than 4000, and the defender doesn't want lose, so he will have his main character do some kick ass power to beat all the guys.

So what I'm trying to say is, out from numbers and tactics, its within the user to accept defeat or victory.