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new World of Warcraft expansion revealed at Gamescom

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WoW's combat system is fine imo. Fixed-rotations are an issue with Blizzard's class designers and content designers, not the combat system. The content just needs to be sufficiently difficult so that maintaining a fixed-rotation and standing in one place becomes difficult.

Raiding is in a pretty good spot atm. Now that mythic tiers exist, most people have something to strive for--and that is pretty much the extent of the "skill" involved in raiding. LFR is a joke, but heroic is a challenge for some, and mythic difficulty is in a good place (compared to previous xpacs where content was notoriously easy/nerfed after a few weeks for the general public).

But I do agree with one thing: topping the DPS meters is an annoying gauge of how well you're doing. That is why I personally favored 10-man raids like Kara where hybrids could be put to use. In small circles (e.g. dungeons or 10-mans), it is easy for some hybrid class to take on the role of off-healing. In 20-25 man raids/flex, hybrids fixate on their role and dumb passives/merged abilities take care of their 'hybrid-utility'.
 
The content just needs to be sufficiently difficult so that maintaining a fixed-rotation and standing in one place becomes difficult.
Encounters have always been designed like that. Staying in one place was never really an option, even in Vanilla. The thing is: this doesn't change the fact that you're still doing the same thing over and over. You move out the fire. Or away from the bomb. Or dispel that sickness. And that's about it. Rince and repeat, just with some different flavour.
There is no aiming, no active blocking, no active evading. There is no block-breaking, no taking cover, no collision.

I also felt that the monotony of raiding was because of encounter design. But it wasn't. Most of the encounters are actually fantastic by design. Blizzard knows what they are doing.
It's the combat system that just doesn't cut it.

It's literally like teaching a dog to "stay out of the fucking fire!". There are no two solutions to a problem. There is no improvising. It's "here's your boss mechanic puzzle... solve it!". Once you have a working strategy for beating a boss, it's literally just about not screwing up the mechanical choreography.
 
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Skillshots`d just be yet another thing to master, just like movement management, it`s pretty much a been-there-done-that thing. Once you`ve done that it`ll become just as 'monotone' a routine as WoW`s ever been to you, and you`d still focus on staying out of fires, all things considered. It adds does add another thing you`ll have to learn, but nothing of real value.
 
@Zwiebelchen: Honestly I'm probably playing devil's advocate a bit since I mostly play WoW for PvP (and only a subset: 3v3).

Your points are well thought out, and I understand what you mean a bit better after reading your post edit. WoW would certainly be a lot funner if they had more abilities like the ones you described (they have a decent few, but there isn't enough reliance on it atm). On a raid level, there are cool things as far as coordination/organization goes for each boss fight, but on an individual level, players will fall into routine. That is why people always demand content--it is the dynamic in the game. Raids are funnest at the discovery phase--but the replayability just isn't there if you don't enjoy your class.

When I made my post, I was mostly referring to the difficulty of the available content. But yes, the skill cap is pretty low on an individual level, and I don't find WoW's PvE that appealing apart from healing and the fact that you get to progress with friends/people online.

I still think you're oversimplifying the experience a lot (particularly on boss mechanics). You'd be surprised how much boss mechanics can carry the experience--in fact, that is probably the driving force behind the fun. Regular mobs are dull as hell, but hey, the bosses aren't half bad. i.e. things like dynamic LoS, splitting up the group, heavy positioning requirements etc. That is where the appeal is. Your misgivings seem a bit dated. WoD is definitely a different experience than pre-Cata.
 
I still think you're oversimplifying the experience a lot (particularly on boss mechanics). You'd be surprised how much boss mechanics can carry the experience--in fact, that is probably the driving force behind the fun. Regular mobs are dull as hell, but hey, the bosses aren't half bad. i.e. things like dynamic LoS, splitting up the group, heavy positioning requirements etc. That is where the appeal is. Your misgivings seem a bit dated. WoD is definitely a different experience than pre-Cata.
I know that encounter design has changed a lot over the years. And it's also not like I never had fun playing WoW. I certainly wouldn't have been part of progress raiding back then if I hadn't had any fun.

The insight on how limited this game is in terms of replayability came when I leveled up my third twink. At this time, I had a priest, a warlock and a warrior. I tried to find variety in combat, but couldn't. In the end, I always have my spam, my low CD nukes, my opener and my situationals. On every class. The priest offered the most variety in the way that I could also heal with it. Which is why I changed to a holy priest at level cap and started progress raiding. I participated with both warlock and priest on raid content.
Playing warlock in a raid was boring as hell. Summoning people had a social component to it; for some weird reason, I enjoyed that mechanic the most. It felt like I actually made a difference. Like I wasn't just a walking random number generator. Also, the warlock had some fun spells to dick around back then, like summoning an infernal that turned hostile and had to be enslaved, or a fel guard. I wished WoW had more of these abilities.
Playing the priest in raids was more fun than the warlock, due to me actually having to react to whatever happens dynamically, instead of just spamming a fixed rotation. But then I realized one thing which destroyed all the fun I had in tab-targeting combat forever:
I wasn't even looking at the actual game anymore. I had my eyes fixated on the raid window healthbars and nothing else. Or on the boss frame to check out what spells it casts. Or the raid warnings or buffs.
And I wondered: how is this still a "game" experience if the UI is more important than what you actually see on screen?

And then when playing Tera, I had this one moment that sealed the fate of tab-targeting combat for me:
I was in a dungeon with a friend of mine, two randoms and one guy that seemed to be an experienced highlevel player on a twink. Nothing special in particular, I thought, and then we went into the dungeon and wiped at the final boss. The boss was still on 50% life; everyone was down except the twink guy. I was preparing to res myself and walk back in, when this guy said in teamspeak "no worries, I got this!". I thought he was kidding, but then he just kept dodging every single attack, taking only a couple of hits while slowly wearing the boss down. It was a moment of ultimate badass. And I was like "How the fuck is that even possible?". I felt like a complete noob not being able to pull that off. For the first time in my MMO experience, I felt like I had A LOT to learn before I could compete with the progress gamers.

Now, to come back to WoW - please don't get me wrong here: TERA is a shitty game outside of the combat. The combat is absolutely genius (the controls could feel a bit more responsive, though) and the F2P model is decent. But that's it. The game has nothing else to offer (except maybe for the asian graphics and some fucking weird costumes like a panda riding a ... bigger panda?!). In terms of gameplay, quest and zone design, this game is no comparison to WoW. And that's why I quit playing the game. The combat is extremely fun, but that alone won't make a game, unfortunately.


When thinking of WoW in this regard, it's just that this game could offer so much more if the devs would just embrace the evolution of the genre. Contrary to popular belief (aka the belief of WoW players), the genre HAS had some significant innovation over the last decade.
 
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I see. I agree, I wish there was more to do on an individual level. I'm a bit of a hopeless optimist when I see xpac info. I'm often on the side of: "yee this game will be awesome now" or "they're finally listening!".

But everything you said resonates with what I've craved. This past xpac, I realized it was sorta beyond the realm of possibility so I ended up having a passive stance towards content--I knew the game wasn't going to have hope until a new xpac was released. I guess that is why I so desperately want it to be good. :X
 
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I know that encounter design has changed a lot over the years. And it's also not like I never had fun playing WoW. I certainly wouldn't have been part of progress raiding back then if I hadn't had any fun.

The insight on how limited this game is in terms of replayability came when I leveled up my third twink. At this time, I had a priest, a warlock and a warrior. I tried to find variety in combat, but couldn't. In the end, I always have my spam, my low CD nukes, my opener and my situationals. On every class. The priest offered the most variety in the way that I could also heal with it. Which is why I changed to a holy priest at level cap and started progress raiding. I participated with both warlock and priest on raid content.
Playing warlock in a raid was boring as hell. Summoning people had a social component to it; for some weird reason, I enjoyed that mechanic the most. It felt like I actually made a difference. Like I wasn't just a walking random number generator. Also, the warlock had some fun spells to dick around back then, like summoning an infernal that turned hostile and had to be enslaved, or a fel guard. I wished WoW had more of these abilities.
Playing the priest in raids was more fun than the warlock, due to me actually having to react to whatever happens dynamically, instead of just spamming a fixed rotation. But then I realized one thing which destroyed all the fun I had in tab-targeting combat forever:
I wasn't even looking at the actual game anymore. I had my eyes fixated on the raid window healthbars and nothing else. Or on the boss frame to check out what spells it casts. Or the raid warnings or buffs.
And I wondered: how is this still a "game" experience if the UI is more important than what you actually see on screen?

And then when playing Tera, I had this one moment that sealed the fate of tab-targeting combat for me:
I was in a dungeon with a friend of mine, two randoms and one guy that seemed to be an experienced highlevel player on a twink. Nothing special in particular, I thought, and then we went into the dungeon and wiped at the final boss. The boss was still on 50% life; everyone was down except the twink guy. I was preparing to res myself and walk back in, when this guy said in teamspeak "no worries, I got this!". I thought he was kidding, but then he just kept dodging every single attack, taking only a couple of hits while slowly wearing the boss down. It was a moment of ultimate badass. And I was like "How the fuck is that even possible?". I felt like a complete noob not being able to pull that off. For the first time in my MMO experience, I felt like I had A LOT to learn before I could compete with the progress gamers.

Now, to come back to WoW - please don't get me wrong here: TERA is a shitty game outside of the combat. The combat is absolutely genius (the controls could feel a bit more responsive, though) and the F2P model is decent. But that's it. The game has nothing else to offer (except maybe for the asian graphics and some fucking weird costumes like a panda riding a ... bigger panda?!). In terms of gameplay, quest and zone design, this game is no comparison to WoW. And that's why I quit playing the game. The combat is extremely fun, but that alone won't make a game, unfortunately.


When thinking of WoW in this regard, it's just that this game could offer so much more if the devs would just embrace the evolution of the genre. Contrary to popular belief (aka the belief of WoW players), the genre HAS had some significant innovation over the last decade.
Skillshots`d just be yet another thing to master, just like movement management, it`s pretty much a been-there-done-that thing. Once you`ve done that it`ll become just as 'monotone' a routine as WoW`s ever been to you, and you`d still focus on staying out of fires, all things considered. It adds does add another thing you`ll have to learn, but nothing of real value.

Eventually, you`d get at the point where you`d just casually press 1 and 2 every so often to dodge/block/parry/whatever everything, and you`d still run into the very same issue you`ve pointed out first.
It`s refreshening when put in contrast to the WoW`s combat system, but by itself it doesn`t offer more, or less replayability than WoW does.
 
Eventually, you`d get at the point where you`d just casually press 1 and 2 every so often to dodge/block/parry/whatever everything, and you`d still run into the very same issue you`ve pointed out first.
It`s refreshening when put in contrast to the WoW`s combat system, but by itself it doesn`t offer more, or less replayability than WoW does.
The thing is, even if active blocking in the end only involves pressing one button: paying attention to the attack patterns doesn't. The reason why action combat is so engaging is, that it actually feels like you are way more involved into the combat. You aren't just telling your toon where to stick the sharp object, you are actually controlling him. Screw up and you will get hurt.
It's this reactivity that WoW is missing.
Also, dodging an attack isn't as easy as pressing a button. You actually need to ... well ... dodge the attack.

The main difference is: I actually need to watch the game screen and pay attention to what the enemy is doing. In WoW, I have my eyes glued to the meters and UI frames. The actual game window is only to show you where the fire is. Or to dance naked on the mailbox.
 
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That`s not true. There`re still a lot of boss mechanics that you have to mind, and quite some of them are positioning dependant.
Granted, you probably don`t have to if you`re raiding lfr or flex, but heroics (jk mythics) are the thing, and they`re still pretty challenging.
There`s the bossmods which do tell you quite some things (Blizzard even did build their own, didn`t they, haven`t really paid any attention to the recent expansions), but the same idea could be applied to active blocking as well (BLOCK NOW! DODGE RIGHT! DODGE LEFT!).
 
That`s not true. There`re still a lot of boss mechanics that you have to mind, and quite some of them are positioning dependant.
"Stay out of the fucking fire!"-mechanics are not the same as action combat mechanics with actual collision.

Granted, you probably don`t have to if you`re raiding lfr or flex, but heroics (jk mythics) are the thing, and they`re still pretty challenging.
There`s the bossmods which do tell you quite some things (Blizzard even did build their own, didn`t they, haven`t really paid any attention to the recent expansions), but the same idea could be applied to active blocking as well (BLOCK NOW! DODGE RIGHT! DODGE LEFT!).
It's not about the challenge and never was. It is about falling asleep because you do the same thing over and over on every single boss.
Besides: it's easy not go give players the opportunity to use such mods. In a way, mods destroyed WoW-raiding.
 
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"Stay out of the fucking fire!"-mechanics are not the same as action combat mechanics with actual collision.

[ .. ]
Quite obviously. However, simplifying WoW with 'stay the fuck out of the fire' doesn`t do it`s justice, there`s a fair deal more to pay attention to (CD usage, for instance, both defensive and offensive)


[ .. ]It's not about the challenge and never was. It is about falling asleep because you do the same thing over and over on every single boss.

[ .. ]
If you would please tell me, then, why wouldn`t you fall asleep while routinely dodging and blocking? I kinda fail to see the difference here, as WoW raiding`s (at the highest level) not trivial at all.
 
If you would please tell me, then, why wouldn`t you fall asleep while routinely dodging and blocking?
Because it isn't routine. Every boss has a different collision, different patterns, etc. ... you can't memorize them all. You need to pay attention to the game screen and react according to the animation.
 
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Because it isn't routine. Every boss has a different collision, different patterns, etc. ... you can't memorize them all. You need to pay attention to the game screen and react according to the animation.

Every boss has different abilities, different positions of fires, et cetera .. you can`t memorize them all. You need to pay attention to the game screen and react according to what the boss`s doing.

So?
 
Every boss has different abilities, different positions of fires, et cetera .. you can`t memorize them all. You need to pay attention to the game screen and react according to what the boss`s doing.

So?
Geez, this is going in circles. Have you ever played one of these games? Or have you ever played a Dark Souls game? Do that and then tell me you prefer the boring tab-target combat for reasons other than that you are too lazy to learn something new.
I have played a huge amount of MMOs over the last decade. I played WoW for a long-ass time. I played Rift, Tera, Archeage, Wildstar, Guildwars, Guildwars II, Ragnarok Online (cause I'm a 90's kid), ESO and some other crappy korean micro-transaction games. So I can tell from experience that - whatever it is that makes combat more engaging in these games - action combat is way more fun than the tab-targeting model.


There is a reason why TERA and Wildstar get universal praise for their combat mechanics in all reviews. Because these mechanics are just good.
 
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It`s been going circles for awhile already.
Anyways.
I didn`t say (nor imply) that /action combat/ is good or bad or whatever; I do however very much doubt that it`d make an endgame PvE game less- or more interesting than WoW`s /tab-target/ one would. Unfortunately, we might just never find out, because as you`ve pointed out already, most of those games are rather lacking actual-content wise.
You`re kinda biased towards the novelty of this action combat precisely just because you`ve played WoW for such 'a long-ass time', because it`s something different than WoW offers. Play an action combat game for an equal amount of time, and you`d probably find it just as dull and boring as you`d find WoW. Have you been there, done that?
 
Have you been there, done that?
I played TERA almost an entire year. Don't get me wrong... there was a bit of repetition at the end aswell, but not even remotely as bad as in WoW. And most of the repetition came from the terrible quest design, grinding and a lack of endgame content. It got better with time, but WoW definitely has the edge in terms of endgame content.

WoW with TERA combat mechanics would be the perfect MMO (in terms of PvE themepark content, that is), imho.
Also, action combat mechanics with mouse-lock allow to play an MMO with a gamepad if you wanted to. That's always a huge plus for those that like it comfy.
 
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whatever it is that makes combat more engaging in these games - action combat is way more fun than the tab-targeting model.
I enjoy tab targeting just as much as "action" games. I have also played pretty much every MMO since WoW's release, and my favorite's have been WoW, Warhammer, and SWtoR. Games like TERA and Wildstar, while the combat can be fun, the games suck and there are issues with the combat (I didn't like the ranged combat in TERA, at least at low levels).


There is a reason why TERA and Wildstar get universal praise for their combat mechanics in all reviews. Because these mechanics are just good.
Wildstar got universal praise for mechanics?
I found the game a huge disappointment and got bored in a few hours.
 
How long`ve you been playing WoW prior to that?
As I said, I was progress raiding Vanilla --> WotlK.
I got the server first kills on C'thun, Twin Emps, Illidan, Vashj and Keal'thas. Some of them even prior to significant nerfs. So yeah, I was a huge nerd back in the days.

I enjoy tab targeting just as much as "action" games. I have also played pretty much every MMO since WoW's release, and my favorite's have been WoW, Warhammer, and SWtoR. Games like TERA and Wildstar, while the combat can be fun, the games suck and there are issues with the combat (I didn't like the ranged combat in TERA, at least at low levels).
Good point. Ranged combat was a bit bland, but that was because ranged combat was basicly designed directly for the tab-targetting crowd.
It was meant to make the transition easier. It still offers more than normal tab-target combat, though:
- actual aiming
- actual missile collision

Wildstar got universal praise for mechanics?
I found the game a huge disappointment and got bored in a few hours.
Tbh, I didn't play Wildstar all that much (because it was P2P, I only played a month). I enjoyed TERA combat a bit more, but that was mainly because the abilities and attacks in Wildstar all felt very samey to me, not because the combat was bad.
 
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As I said, I was progress raiding Vanilla --> WotlK.
I got the server first kills on C'thun, Twin Emps, Illidan, Vashj and Keal'thas. Some of them even prior to significant nerfs. So yeah, I was a huge nerd back in the days.

[ .. ]
Must`ve missed where you`ve stated it, my bad then, but there`s that. Vanilla `till WotLK`s what, 4 or 5 years? (depending on whether you`ve stopped early or late WotLK) That`s significantly more than the year you`ve been playing TERA.
I enjoy tab targeting just as much as "action" games. I have also played pretty much every MMO since WoW's release, and my favorite's have been WoW, Warhammer, and SWtoR. Games like TERA and Wildstar, while the combat can be fun, the games suck and there are issues with the combat (I didn't like the ranged combat in TERA, at least at low levels).

[ .. ]
Zwiebelchen did specifically state that TERA`s content was rather shit.
 
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