MMO possibilities in SC2?

[Catar]

I'd just like to point out before you get ahead of yourselves, you can't make an MMO in Starcraft 2. You cannot join a game already in progress, or as already stated in this thread, switch a map for only certain players. A multiplayer RPG for up to 16 people is feasible, but an MMO is impossible.

Sorry.

 

[redmarine]

I'd just like to point out before you get ahead of yourselves, you can't make an MMO in Starcraft 2. You cannot join a game already in progress, or as already stated in this thread, switch a map for only certain players. A multiplayer RPG for up to 16 people is feasible, but an MMO is impossible.

Sorry.

Well, in SC2 you can actually save your data for custom maps unlike in WC3. So basically each time you launch the map the data will be retrieved, however, he won't be able to get more than 16 players as you've said.

Hopefully Blizzard will fix that in the expansions.

 

[Catar]

It's not the player max that's an issue, it's the server based gaming.

SC2 cannot be joined while in progress unlike any MMO (by definition) or other server type games like TF2/L4D/CS:S/MW/etc. Because of this limitation, which Blizzard has explicitly stated will not be lifted.

Q: "Possibility of peopling joining AFTER the game starts?" -Scepticus
A: (Dustin) "No"

So an MMO in Starcraft 2 is not and will not be possible, even in expansions.

 

[Modhell]

It's not the player max that's an issue, it's the server based gaming.

So an MMO in Starcraft 2 is not and will not be possible, even in expansions.

well actually that doesn't sound right, an mmorpg shouldn't need a continuous world to be classed as such... it just needs a large player base and rpg elements. As long as character data and if necessary world data can be transferred from game to game then its just a sort of 'instancing' for 16 player parties.

It may not be your conventional mmorpg, but if it contains all the right elements and has a large player base I don't see why it can't be considered one... after all, if being able to join a persistant world is the defining feature of an mmo then there's really no reason to play one... you could just set up a chatango account instead. I think the games content and it's player base are more important factors.

With the large map display is it possible to do things like move and zoom the camera with custom buttons?

 

[CloudMax]

It's not the player max that's an issue, it's the server based gaming.

SC2 cannot be joined while in progress unlike any MMO (by definition) or other server type games like TF2/L4D/CS:S/MW/etc. Because of this limitation, which Blizzard has explicitly stated will not be lifted.


So an MMO in Starcraft 2 is not and will not be possible, even in expansions.

It is possible to join a game in wc3 after it starts with help of "hacking".
I have feelings that it will most likely be possible in starcraft 2 in the future aswell.
I mean common... Why would blizzard stop us from creating a way to do this if we managed to do it? It is not like it is bad for them, or is it?

 

[Pyritie]

thread split

 

[Mille25]

i dont worry about this server issue. thats not a so big problem imo. the much bigger problem is the max. size of 256*256, which is a joke, and the max 8 tilesets, also that you cant load a map for a specific player sucks.

 

[kevv2]

well, you can code an infinite world, i already helped somebody make it... you just make a world that moves around your character, using preset world coded into the triggers.

so basicly if your map there should be another unit, the game detects the unit position and replicated it in each player's areas, records the animation and simply replicates it and set a unit's hp to whatever it should be after being attacked

ive seen it done in WC3 partialy dure to it's limitations, hopefully SC2 will have better chances of it working efficiently

 

[Legacyspy]

Modhell is correct

If one calls things like guildwars a "mmo", then MMOs are certainly possible.
You can have multiple maps that can retrieve the same set of data so the limit of 256x256 is not a problem. It just means in order to enter a new zone you have to quit the current game, and load a new map. Parties can either be formed randomly through people hosting and taking who ever comes, or from chat channels and forums and such.

This means that any sort of "MMO" will rely on having several things, the most important being having a large player base, so that when a player hosts " X MMO Y Boss run" it fills up fast enough, and so that there is a community to foster the feeling of MMO.

The main hindrance to sc2 is the lack of a secure data storage system, since any data files are stored on the persons computer and can only be obfuscated, meaning once people figure out your system cheating will be rampant unless blizzard provides a away to lock data.

Aside from that the limits are almost endless for MMOs given you can create a player base. You can run tournaments, have pvp maps, trading between players, dungeon/boss maps as well as more general open world maps. You can take that aren't found in other MMOs, but are found in wc3 custom maps. You could have an MMO with tower defence aspects, or even a more generic mmo with a tower defence mission.

 

[Wezthal]

I don't thinks it's a big problem that players cannot change maps separately. If the map is a team based, simply require that all players must accept team leader's "Ready To Travel" vote or that all players must gather their heroes near the Door or whatever.
Although it would be cool if it was possible and that would open up even more possibilities, atleast I'm very much content with what we seem to be getting now.

 

[tremin]

TF2/L4D/CS:S/MW/etc.

Erm since when have Morrowind been a server based game?... Seriosly if you mean modernwarface then atleast say CoDMW.

 

[elfian]

If we get to have pointers and the ability to modify the address anyway we want, I think it would be possible to make anything... but I'm talking about real pointers, pointing to real memory addresses.

 

[Grey Nightmare]

So to change map you will have to rehost?

 

[Mepper]

Hey I know nothing about programming, but is a pointer basically like the "Bank" function in the GE?

 

[Pyritie]

If we get to have pointers and the ability to modify the address anyway we want, I think it would be possible to make anything... but I'm talking about real pointers, pointing to real memory addresses.

While that would be very powerful, it would also open up a whole load of vulnerabilities.

 

[elfian]

While that would be very powerful, it would also open up a whole load of vulnerabilities.

You actually don't want having that. It would be a much better idea to start begging blizzard to add socket natives with some of their patches.

 

[Catar]

If one calls things like guildwars a "mmo", then MMOs are certainly possible.
You can have multiple maps that can retrieve the same set of data so the limit of 256x256 is not a problem. It just means in order to enter a new zone you have to quit the current game, and load a new map. Parties can either be formed randomly through people hosting and taking who ever comes, or from chat channels and forums and such.

This means that any sort of "MMO" will rely on having several things, the most important being having a large player base, so that when a player hosts " X MMO Y Boss run" it fills up fast enough, and so that there is a community to foster the feeling of MMO.

The main hindrance to sc2 is the lack of a secure data storage system, since any data files are stored on the persons computer and can only be obfuscated, meaning once people figure out your system cheating will be rampant unless blizzard provides a away to lock data.

Aside from that the limits are almost endless for MMOs given you can create a player base. You can run tournaments, have pvp maps, trading between players, dungeon/boss maps as well as more general open world maps. You can take that aren't found in other MMOs, but are found in wc3 custom maps. You could have an MMO with tower defence aspects, or even a more generic mmo with a tower defence mission.

Guild Wars is indeed an MMO, but the point of an MMO is that it is a persistent server that you can join or leave at any time while the game continues without you. The setup you're referring to is more of an MUD (Multi-User Dungeon) type system, where character data can be carried around. This is possible with SC2, but will likely be a clunky, unintuitive system with much rehosting.

An MMORPG is, by definition, impossible with current SC2 capabilities. That is a fact, no matter what you try to argue. I'm not trying to be a jerk and shoot down ideas here, I'm just trying to keep your expectations within realistic boundaries.

having said that: Reinventing the Craft, with the WarSoc addition, can make an actual MMORPG. RTC > SC2. Fun.


-sidenote: As far as I am aware, the data stored by banks is actually stored in the player's Battle.net profile, not on the local computer. This means no tampering. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[Grey Nightmare]

I won't quote but I hope your right, I was indeed worried by tampering potential.

 

[elfian]

Um, no. The Bank data is stored in APPDATA. Atleast that's what some guy on hive said after he researched it.

 

[Grey Nightmare]

Well that sucks ¬.¬ hackers, here you go... a present.

EDIT: In fact you probably wouldn't even need any coding knowledge

 

[elfian]

Another reason we would need socket natives...
EDIT: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/starcraft-ii-408/banks-possibility-edit-them-165088/
It actually sucks even more. We would have to encrypt data before we store it?

 

[CloudMax]

In the GUI section of the bank triggers it even says that it is stored inside of a XML file..
Ohh.. Blizzard really is making it "hard" for people to ruin the games nowdays.

 

[Modhell]

Guild Wars is indeed an MMO, but the point of an MMO is that it is a persistent server that you can join or leave at any time while the game continues without you.

An MMORPG is, by definition, impossible with current SC2 capabilities. That is a fact, no matter what you try to argue. I'm not trying to be a jerk and shoot down ideas here, I'm just trying to keep your expectations within realistic boundaries.

The definition of an mmorpg isn't a persistant server, but a persistant world... and even then that's not quite an accurate description. Take WoW for example... mobs respawn, dugeons can be played at the same time by various groups and also reset, players can also have duplicates of the same items, etc.

By it's own definition there isn't actually a real mmo as far as I can tell, and the reality is that the games labelled as an mmo wouldn't really change at all if you took away the persistant server and replaced it with a lobby system... after all that's all the 'persistant world' feature of these games adds up to, a flash interactive lobby. The dungeons, quests and pvp all require a player to be in a set group of sorts... and whether or not you can join those groups post-launch doesn't really affect the core game. What the persistant world does is just offer the impatient player things to do while they wait for the lobby to fill, and while thats a good thing, it's not particularly defining.

Either way I don't see why genre classification is so important when the game will be able to meet the primary criteria and contain correct content to appease the player base of that sort of game.

 

[HappyHero]

I think many people are expecting little too much from sc2.

It is an RTS and will always be an RTS. It wasn't ever meant to be a "open game engine" or anything like that.
I don't believe that if we want to create maps that are really different from starcraft gameplay we can do that without tons of workarounds.

The Editor offers more possibilities than any other editor I know, so be lucky with what you get.

Of and to the little OT:
Even if banks are stored locally: Why not just use a code like before and just store the code in the banks? If players don't need to type it, it can have any length.

 

[Grey Nightmare]

Of and to the little OT:
Even if banks are stored locally: Why not just use a code like before and just store the code in the banks? If players don't need to type it, it can have any length.

This seems logical.

 

[Legacyspy]

Even if banks are stored locally: Why not just use a code like before and just store the code in the banks? If players don't need to type it, it can have any length.

If they can see it they can hack it.

 

[Wezthal]

There's an option for encrypting all the data stored to banks, why not store the data as it is and from that data + other more hidden settings, create couple of separate savecodes which must match the data when it is loaded. Since the savecodes would be handled completly by triggers there's no effort required from the players. And by using separate savecodes the data is easier to handle since it doesn't need to be decrypted when used.

This "protection" code wouldn't need to be that complex and it would already block majority of the cheating attempts. Also, if the code is changed in new versions of the map, it will be generally quite secure.

It maybe easier to just encrypt all data and forget about separate codes in some cases, but for simple systems this might be an easy way to go.

 

[elfian]

Let the map be accompanied by an executable file. When it's launched it stays hidden and every 2-3 or so seconds checks for a bank. When the map creates a bank and the executable detects it it sends all the data to your server via windows socket. The server stores it. Then the executable file deletes the bank and starts waiting for a new one. When a map wants to get some data it stores a second type of bank with the GET ME DATA message or something. The executable detects that. Connects to the server. Gets all the data, creates it to a bank. The map loads the bank and all the data. The executable deletes the bank. That's still hackable, but come on, WoW has private servers too >_> Anyways, that was one fucked up idea. Nobody would trust executables anyways...

That actually works for an MMO map too if you're OK with having a 10 second delay for each mouse click ^^

 

[Grey Nightmare]

.exes + map? Blizzard would rather give all their profit to charity :/

 

[elfian]

.exes + map? Blizzard would rather give all their profit to charity :/

I don't see any relation between a random mapmaker spreading his map together with a suspicious .exe and Blizzard...

 

[CloudMax]

I don't see any relation between a random mapmaker spreading his map together with a suspicious .exe and Blizzard...

I think he means that blizzard would rather loose everything they have then allowing people to have .exe files in a custom map.
Becouse you can EASILY send viruses over maps if they allow .exe files. This was the case in wc3, where people found a way to run .exe files and send viruses over battle.net..

 

[cookies4you]

Call in Doctor Haax.

Running EXE files in Starcraft 2 is something that blizzard will NEVER do. As LTGH said, remember Warcraft 3?

On the topic, MMO maps may not be possible, but RPG maps are capable. Save + Load ftw!

 

[elfian]

Guys, WHO THE HELL IS TALKING ABOUT BLIZZARD Nobody is going to put the .exe inside the goddamn map. It's going to be a separate file. That you run separability from the game from an icon on your desktop. There is no blizzard to allow it or to disallow it Which word did you not understand? I am not talking about the game running the .exe, I'm talking about the user launching it on his own before he starts the game... >_> Gawd...

 

[CloudMax]

Guys, WHO THE HELL IS TALKING ABOUT BLIZZARD Nobody is going to put the .exe inside the goddamn map. It's going to be a separate file. That you run separability from the game from an icon on your desktop. There is no blizzard to allow it or to disallow it Which word did you not understand? I am not talking about the game running the .exe, I'm talking about the user launching it on his own before he starts the game... >_> Gawd...

So you want a icon on your desktop that loads up a specific map inside starcraft 2?
There is already launchers out there to do such things, lol. <.<
The problem is that it allows people without the game to play it illegaly.

You should understand that if blizzard does not support this, it have to be done the illigal way, and if you support that way, then i dont know what to tell you.

On another side note, you can just choose to open a sc2 map with starcraft 2 and it will launch the map for you... From the desktop or whatever.
No need of an .exe file.

 

[elfian]

OMFG, I QUIT!!! You can't understand a SINGLE GODDAMN WORD. I'm just wasting my time trying to explain to you this...

 

[CloudMax]

OMFG, I QUIT!!! You can't understand a SINGLE GODDAMN WORD. I'm just wasting my time trying to explain to you this...

Wtf are you talking about?
I understand every single damn word you say.
You said that you want a .exe file that runs a map.
YOU CAN JUST RICK CLICK THE MAP AND CHOOSE TO OPEN IT WITH SC2.
Why the heck do we need a freaking .exe file for that?
Explain this or you are just trying to avoid the fact that i am right and you were wrong.

 

[elfian]

This is the last time I am going to explain it. I am hardly holding myself from flaming you, so if you do not understand it this time, I will just ignore you, because you are fucking annoying me way too much. You have two files on your desktop:

1. The Damn Map
2. The Mysterious .EXE

Say, you want to play the map now. First you double click the .EXE. It opens in a command line which stays on the background and does what it does. Then you start the map like a normal regular map in Starcraft II. You "RIGHT CLICK THE MAP AND CHOOSE TO OPEN IT WITH SC2". When the map begins, a timer is initialized. Every X seconds of game time the map stores a bank. While you are playing the game, the .EXE is working on it's own, checking for a bank non-stop. When it finds out that the map created a bank it reads it. After reading it, it analyses it, then it creates a new bank with a response. The map finds out about the new bank. Opens it up. Reads it and ta-da. We have established a communication between a normal regular working map, started by the user normally and an executable file which can do everything you want. I hope you understand it this time, because this is the last time I'm explaining it!

 

[CloudMax]

This is the last time I am going to explain it. I am hardly holding myself from flaming you, so if you do not understand it this time, I will just ignore you, because you are fucking annoying me way too much. You have two files on your desktop:

1. The Damn Map
2. The Mysterious .EXE

Say, you want to play the map now. First you double click the .EXE. It opens in a command line which stays on the background and does what it does. Then you start the map like a normal regular map in Starcraft II. You "RIGHT CLICK THE MAP AND CHOOSE TO OPEN IT WITH SC2". When the map begins, a timer is initialized. Every X seconds of game time the map stores a bank. While you are playing the game, the .EXE is working on it's own, checking for a bank non-stop. When it finds out that the map created a bank it reads it. After reading it, it analyses it, then it creates a new bank with a response. The map finds out about the new bank. Opens it up. Reads it and ta-da. We have established a communication between a normal regular working map, started by the user normally and an executable file which can do everything you want. I hope you understand it this time, because this is the last time I'm explaining it!

Why didnt you tell me that you wanted to store information inside the .exe file?
What you told me was that you wanted a .exe file to run the map.

Inste of yelling at me and using stupid words like fuck, just explain insted of treating me like a complete idiot.

Next time, just explain what the heck it is you are trying to tell us insted of yelling. -.-

BTW:
Using a .exe file would not be a solid way either. The best way i can think of is that you encrypt the information you want to store, and then decrypt it when you load it again. Pretty much like codes in warcraft 3, but you do not have to enter the code yourself.

 

[elfian]

Why didnt you tell me that you wanted to store information inside the .exe file?
What you told me was that you wanted a .exe file to run the map.

Inste of yelling at me and using stupid words like fuck, just explain insted of treating me like a complete idiot.

Next time, just explain what the heck it is you are trying to tell us insted of yelling. -.-

BTW:
Using a .exe file would not be a solid way either. The best way i can think of is that you encrypt the information you want to store, and then decrypt it when you load it again. Pretty much like codes in warcraft 3, but you do not have to enter the code yourself.

I am sorry, but this is exactly what I was explaining from the beginning. Seems like it's either you who doesn't understand right, or me who doesn't explain well. Whatever.

On the other topic:
We do not need an executable in order to hide the information. We can just encrypt it like you said. But we need the executable if we want to make some kind of an MMO game. Maybe a turn based one. This is because the executable will let the map communicate with the server indirectly.

The data will be transfered like this:
Send request: Game -> Bank -> Executable -> Server
Receive result: Server -> Executable -> Bank -> Game

 

[shadonavan]

lol you can play maps already. if nothing else open sc2 Galaxy editor. open map in it and hit test map. if you cant do that you obviously dont have the actual sc2 beta and you should prolly have this thread closed cus your asking us to tell you how to do something illegally.

and btw ltgh i didnt know you could rightclick it and just hit open with sc2 lol!

 

[Legacyspy]

lol you can play maps already. if nothing else open sc2 Galaxy editor. open map in it and hit test map. if you cant do that you obviously dont have the actual sc2 beta and you should prolly have this thread closed cus your asking us to tell you how to do something illegally.

That is not what they were discussing. They were discussing creating a second program to tie together a server and the hosted map its self.

 

[Hiruty]

yes i actualy thought of this but i thoght of bots that when some1 moves they talked to eachother through the backround program running this meaning you could have up to 5 games hosted with the 1 bot talking in each game as an observer and move other players and making custom talk through the bot.

E.g.:
Person: moves unit
Bot: gets information from game and ingame script
BACKROUND PROGRAM: sends to second or same bot in dif game
Bot: gets co-ords moves unit to dif area

E.g.
Person: hey i rock you duvk :3
Bot: picks up speach gets name and sends trhough backround to other bots or same bot in dif game
Bot: - TALK - Person: hey i rock you duvk

sry about typo i touch type alot of the time and make errors then get 2 laze to fix EM XD

 

[CloudMax]

yes i actualy thought of this but i thoght of bots that when some1 moves they talked to eachother through the backround program running this meaning you could have up to 5 games hosted with the 1 bot talking in each game as an observer and move other players and making custom talk through the bot.

E.g.:
Person: moves unit
Bot: gets information from game and ingame script
BACKROUND PROGRAM: sends to second or same bot in dif game
Bot: gets co-ords moves unit to dif area

E.g.
Person: hey i rock you duvk :3
Bot: picks up speach gets name and sends trhough backround to other bots or same bot in dif game
Bot: - TALK - Person: hey i rock you duvk

sry about typo i touch type alot of the time and make errors then get 2 laze to fix EM XD

So, this is how it would work:
All players have their own hosted game with a bot in it.
The bot is comunicating with a program that reads and sends information.
So if all players that play the map is using this program, they would communicate with each other through it and the computer emulates the actions of all players, so that it gets synced.

I know that they did this to another game before. And i know that they were working on this for Torchlight, i dont know if it still is in progress or if it is finished.
They just had a program that emulated everything

But doing this in starcraft 2 will probably be insanely hard to do..

 

[Hiruty]

not realy cause you can actualy make people talk without there request with some triggers so you make the bot talk it copies what it talks then send s a bot to do it in another game. This is better cause no more .exe propblemes and less delay but might induce lag