Market Squares v1.5

[nightelfbuilder]

Now this is just weird, you took symmetry to a whole another level. This is more "Pac-man than a melee map, the gameplay is basically just getting the most goldmine and the map lacks doodad and tile variation making the terrain look bland. You should really consider starting small since you're new to melee mapping, I suggest starting with 1v1 then slowly going to more complicated types of melee as your knowledge expands. I also suggest reading tutorials and studying approved melee maps. Again start small and simple and Happy modding.

Edit: The screenshots are hidden, you may want to upload it to a public album.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Now this is just weird, you took symmetry to a whole another level. This is more "Pac-man than a melee map, the gameplay is basically just getting the most goldmine and the map lacks doodad and tile variation making the terrain look bland. You should really consider starting small since you're new to melee mapping, I suggest starting with 1v1 then slowly going to more complicated types of melee as your knowledge expands. I also suggest reading tutorials and studying approved melee maps. Again start small and simple and Happy modding.

Edit: The screenshots are hidden, you may want to upload it to a public album.

Maybe he is not that new in mapping and he is aiming for the 24 player map for the melee contest.
Only by looking the minimap I can say that the user is very skilled for simetry and thats the key for balance.
In huge maps, is common to see the terrain and the doodad use with low level than a 1vs1 map. Balance is more important than beauty, and that means to be permisive with low doodad use and low tile mix.

Is very good that it says 12vs12 or 6v6v6v6.... the user @T.Nick did very well in recognice this is not for FFA.


I can´t open the map but by looking the screenshots, the terrain seems more than ok to me.
And about the packman thing, thats unavoidable 12 player melee map for FFA looks like pizza, big maps and huge maps tend to be like a huge cluster mine sweeper game it can´t be avoided.

I usually recommend to study melee maps but for 24 players, there no where to study yet, and @T.Nick seems to know that the basic staring positions for a lot of players is to have them in the borders of the map to have them as balanced as posible.

 

[nightelfbuilder]

Maybe he is not that new in mapping and he is aiming for the 24 player map for the melee contest.
Only by looking the minimap I can say that the user is very skilled for simetry and thats the key for balance.
In huge maps, is common to see the terrain and the doodad use with low level than a 1vs1 map. Balance is more important than beauty, and that means to be permisive with low doodad use and low tile mix.

Is very good that it says 12vs12 or 6v6v6v6.... the user @T.Nick did very well in recognice this is not for FFA.


I can´t open the map but by looking the screenshots, the terrain seems more than ok to me.
And about the packman thing, thats unavoidable 12 player melee map for FFA looks like pizza, big maps and huge maps tend to be like a huge cluster mine sweeper game it can´t be avoided.

I usually recommend to study melee maps but for 24 players, there no where to study yet, and @T.Nick seems to know that the basic staring positions for a lot of players is to have them in the borders of the map to have them as balanced as posible.

sorry about that, I got this tendency of going for the aesthetic value first than the overall game play, I was referring to this map as a great example of a 12v12 (24)Madness in the Barrens!

 

[mafe]

This is a very good map. Apart from 12v12, 6v6v6v6, I think it also works for 3v3v3....v3. A few notes for improvement:
-Game Data should be set to "melee (latest patch)".
-There is a small pathing error (same at the other corners):

-If you want to have more creepspots, consider using stronger creep for the already existing spot, so that you use fewer creeps per spot but keep the experience values roughly as they are. Of course, you want to keep this map as close to the original market place as possible, so it this would not be ideal as you might have to make a compromis.

Did you create this map from cratch or did you copy&paste stuff from the original market place map?

 

[T.Nick]

Maybe he is not that new in mapping and he is aiming for the 24 player map for the melee contest.
Only by looking the minimap I can say that the user is very skilled for simetry and thats the key for balance.
In huge maps, is common to see the terrain and the doodad use with low level than a 1vs1 map. Balance is more important than beauty, and that means to be permisive with low doodad use and low tile mix.

Is very good that it says 12vs12 or 6v6v6v6.... the user @T.Nick did very well in recognice this is not for FFA.


I can´t open the map but by looking the screenshots, the terrain seems more than ok to me.
And about the packman thing, thats unavoidable 12 player melee map for FFA looks like pizza, big maps and huge maps tend to be like a huge cluster mine sweeper game it can´t be avoided.

I usually recommend to study melee maps but for 24 players, there no where to study yet, and @T.Nick seems to know that the basic staring positions for a lot of players is to have them in the borders of the map to have them as balanced as posible.

Thank you for the feedback. Basically as you said, I already did a fair amount of tile and doodad variation on the map and did not wanted to overload it. However, you can argue about some spots looking a bit bland, but I did not wanted to go too crazy on the doodads to keep the paths big enough for the high amount of players. I heavily oriented myself on the original Market Square and tried to keep the Terrain close to the original, while also making it suitable for 24 players.

Edit: And yeah, there not many 24 player maps I could use for studying, that's why I tried to adapt the style of a smaller map to a bigger size.

 

[T.Nick]

This is a very good map. Apart from 12v12, 6v6v6v6, I think it also works for 3v3v3....v3. A few notes for improvement:
-Game Data should be set to "melee (latest patch)".
-There is a small pathing error (same at the other corners):
View attachment 293195
-If you want to have more creepspots, consider using stronger creep for the already existing spot, so that you use fewer creeps per spot but keep the experience values roughly as they are. Of course, you want to keep this map as close to the original market place as possible, so it this would not be ideal as you might have to make a compromis.

Did you create this map from cratch or did you copy&paste stuff from the original market place map?

As far as I'm aware, when using the default option, melee maps will use the newest update, while custom maps (Altered Melee) will use the oldest update. Setting the game data to "latest patch" turns the map into a custom map.

Regarding the pathing error: It is actually intended this way, so small units like workers can still go through it, while normal units can not. I forgot to mention it and will add it to the description. This way, scouting is unaffected by this wall. However, you can argue if scouting on a 24-player map does even make sense.

I already made the Creeps stronger than in the original "Market Square" and doing this again would make almost all creeps to be atleast level 5. I think it is fine as it is now.

I copy-pasted terrain, doodads, buildings and creeps from the original map and then added and adjusted my part to the map. You will certainly see some similarities in the maps.

 

[WolfFarkas]

As far as I'm aware, when using the default option, melee maps will use the newest update, while custom maps (Altered Melee) will use the oldest update. Setting the game data to "latest patch" turns the map into a custom map.

Regarding the pathing error: It is actually intended this way, so small units like workers can still go through it, while normal units can not. I forgot to mention it and will add it to the description. This way, scouting is unaffected by this wall. However, you can argue if scouting on a 24-player map does even make sense.

I already made the Creeps stronger than in the original "Market Square" and doing this again would make almost all creeps to be atleast level 5. I think it is fine as it is now.

I copy-pasted terrain, doodads, buildings and creeps from the original map and then added and adjusted my part to the map. You will certainly see some similarities in the maps.

"latest patch turns the map into a custom map".

The Melee mappers when that message shows we say "Blizzard, Fire Blast is much better so go away",

The melee last patch is a must because is needed to have the tinker, the goblin alchemist and the fire lord in the tavern.

if you check almost all Hiveworkshop maps have the melee last patch and because of that the custom icon (golden cog). We don´t care what the editor says we want the tinker, goblin alchemist and the firelord in the tavern.

 

[T.Nick]

"latest patch turns the map into a custom map".

The Melee mappers when that message shows we say "Blizzard, Fire Blast is much better so go away",

The melee last patch is a must because is needed to have the tinker, the goblin alchemist and the fire lord in the tavern.

if you check almost all Hiveworkshop maps have the melee last patch and because of that the custom icon (golden cog). We don´t care what the editor says we want the tinker, goblin alchemist and the firelord in the tavern.

Oh, didn't know they were missing then, because I tested with default gamedata and it used 1.29. Thank you for the info.

Edit: I changed it now.

 

[mafe]

"latest patch turns the map into a custom map".

The Melee mappers when that message shows we say "Blizzard, Fire Blast is much better so go away",

The melee last patch is a must because is needed to have the tinker, the goblin alchemist and the fire lord in the tavern.

if you check almost all Hiveworkshop maps have the melee last patch and because of that the custom icon (golden cog). We don´t care what the editor says we want the tinker, goblin alchemist and the firelord in the tavern.

Something weir is the happening here, in the sense that everything is working as "normal". The map is not using any modified doodads, custom models etc, so the editor actually classifies this map as melee, so it is working on latest patch even with game data being set to default. I checked and tinker etc are all ingame.

I'm so used that nowadays almost any melee map has something like an imported models, or custom doodads (trees with changed minimap colors for some of my maps, for example), that I did not even consider the possibility of a map beinga working melee map despite not being set to "melee latest patch". I even had to re-check how the mechanics are actually working (and I hope I got it right). In that sense, my comment was wrong; I can only say that with "melee latest patch" you are always on the right side while with "default", it might work, but could also go wrong if you are not being careful

 

[T.Nick]

Something weir is the happening here, in the sense that everything is working as "normal". The map is not using any modified doodads, custom models etc, so the editor actually classifies this map as melee, so it is working on latest patch even with game data being set to default. I checked and tinker etc are all ingame.

I'm so used that nowadays almost any melee map has something like an imported models, or custom doodads (trees with changed minimap colors for some of my maps, for example), that I did not even consider the possibility of a map beinga working melee map despite not being set to "melee latest patch". I even had to re-check how the mechanics are actually working (and I hope I got it right). In that sense, my comment was wrong; I can only say that with "melee latest patch" you are always on the right side while with "default", it might work, but could also go wrong if you are not being careful

I changed it to latest patch now, so I will just let it stay that way. Thank you anyway

 

[Eregos]

Feels a bit formulaic but it's a great map for 24p comp stomp games, the pathing is very open so the AI generally doesn't get stuck. When the pathing isn't open enough it tends to cause the AI to lag the game.

 

[T.Nick]

Feels a bit formulaic but it's a great map for 24p comp stomp games, the pathing is very open so the AI generally doesn't get stuck. When the pathing isn't open enough it tends to cause the AI to lag the game.

Thanks! Also, the open pathing is required for most maps with large teams, or else armies can clog up pathes very easily.

 

[mr po]

The minimap is a bit optical illusion.

 

[Deleted member 247165]

I've spent so many days playing the original Market Square with my friends and this comes out now for 1.29. I have only one thing to say. Well done. 5/5 + 4 rep points.

 

[SABREWULF]

Map crashes when i just click on it to chose it



map crashes and freezes the entire WE when I try to load it

 

[T.Nick]

Map crashes when i just click on it to chose it



map crashes and freezes the entire WE when I try to load it

Hmm the map works fine for me on the latest patch, wether ingame or the editor. The map does not use custom data or triggers, all default melee stuff. Do you have the latest version of the map? Did you update your WC3 to patch 1.29 or later? The map won't run on patches older than 1.29, because the 24 player limit was introduced in that patch. I can't reproduce the crashes and haven't heard other things like this so far.

 

[JSRGN]

Hi, T.Nick.

For obvious reasons, this map has become relatively popular in 24 man FFAs. I've done a few games on it myself.

This map has one serious, significant problem. People who spawn in the corners (there will be 8 total in a 24 player game) are getting fucked on the lack of a natural expansion. The expansions closest to the corners just spawn directly in front of the bases of the next two players over - which doublefucks the 8 people who spawn in the corners. This map lacks Market Square's corner expansions, with kinda obvious results.

I suggest that you update the map, getting rid of the corner goblin shops and replacing them with gold mines. However, I understand your logic in having goblin shops easily accessible at those four inwards corners. I don't really know if or how those goblin shops could be replaced. But this expansion issue absolutely has to be fixed. I have difficulty hosting the map in good faith of fair play given how badly people who spawn in the corners are getting fucked atm.

 

[T.Nick]

Hi, T.Nick.

For obvious reasons, this map has become relatively popular in 24 man FFAs. I've done a few games on it myself.

This map has one serious, significant problem. People who spawn in the corners (there will be 8 total in a 24 player game) are getting fucked on the lack of a natural expansion. The expansions closest to the corners just spawn directly in front of the bases of the next two players over - which doublefucks the 8 people who spawn in the corners. This map lacks Market Square's corner expansions, with kinda obvious results.

I suggest that you update the map, getting rid of the corner goblin shops and replacing them with gold mines. However, I understand your logic in having goblin shops easily accessible at those four inwards corners. I don't really know if or how those goblin shops could be replaced. But this expansion issue absolutely has to be fixed. I have difficulty hosting the map in good faith of fair play given how badly people who spawn in the corners are getting fucked atm.

Hi JSRGN,

first, thanks for writing this, I appreciate the feedback.

Originally, this map wasn't intended for FFAs but for 12v12s or 6v6v6v6s and thus, has obvious flaws for a FFA map. But thinking about the popularity of FFAs in comparison to 12v12 or similar teams and how teammates don't always are nice to each other (stealing expo's of teammates and other things), I guess I will try to make some fitting changes to the map to make it more FFA-friendly. However, keep in mind that the basic layout of the map, which i do not intend to change, is not made for FFAs.

For now, I'm thinking about the following changes:
- Goblin Shops in the map corners will be replaced by goldmines, meaning there are now more first expo mines than players on the map
- said goblin shops will be removed or moved to a different position, maybe also replacing some other neutral building (the goblin labs? not sure right now, would like to hear some ideas on that)

This way, players are less restricted in their choice for the first expo and should make things easier for all players, especially for players starting in the corners(although these players still have to fight each other for it, like in the original Market Square).

Kinda off-topic, but what do you think about the built in wall between the corner spots of the map? I would like to hear some feedback about it(I don't play much melee), because I'm not sure if it serves the intended purpose or makes things even worse.

 

[JSRGN]

Yeah, about those walls, why are they a thing? Teams regularly spawn right next to one another on Market Square, and corner-on-corner spawns can often lead to some ridiculously fast rushes - that's meant to come part and parcel with that map.

Anyway, from what I saw, the walls didn't function properly. At least where I was in the top left. Small units, like acolytes, could walk through the wall, but big ones couldn't. Was kinda annoying. There was no way to properly get a small beginning force to the other side of the corner of the map without walking through that orange mercenary camp siege golem creep, which isn't really true to the original Market Square's design - where corner-on-corner rushes are very much a viable thing even in ladder games.

I actually didn't realize this until just now, but it turns out that the Russian FFA community has already altered the map in various large and small ways, fixing the corner gold mines, for one. I linked it here. Other changes of theirs involve getting rid of the corner mercenary camps and replacing with goblin shops (not a good move), and putting 4x goblin shops in the center of the map (possibly a good move?).

Basically, if you took the ideas in this FFA-altered map, but got rid of the corner walls, put the mercenary camps back into the corners (there isn't a single merc camp anywhere on the map in this version...) and did some changes to the center, I'd consider the map in a good state.

In terms of the map center - I'd suggest replacing the level 9 Siege Golem with a level 11 Flesh Golem. This center creep camp just isn't intimidating enough at the moment, I've seen people creep it out with some fairly understrength armies. And possibly putting in some more intricate tile work and design - it's a rather large area of space for being so bland atm.

 

[T.Nick]

Yeah, about those walls, why are they a thing? Teams regularly spawn right next to one another on Market Square, and corner-on-corner spawns can often lead to some ridiculously fast rushes - that's meant to come part and parcel with that map.

Anyway, from what I saw, the walls didn't function properly. At least where I was in the top left. Small units, like acolytes, could walk through the wall, but big ones couldn't. Was kinda annoying. There was no way to properly get a small beginning force to the other side of the corner of the map without walking through that orange mercenary camp siege golem creep, which isn't really true to the original Market Square's design - where corner-on-corner rushes are very much a viable thing even in ladder games.

I actually didn't realize this until just now, but it turns out that the Russian FFA community has already altered the map in various large and small ways, fixing the corner gold mines, for one. I linked it here. Other changes of theirs involve getting rid of the corner mercenary camps and replacing with goblin shops (not a good move), and putting 4x goblin shops in the center of the map (possibly a good move?).

Basically, if you took the ideas in this FFA-altered map, but got rid of the corner walls, put the mercenary camps back into the corners (there isn't a single merc camp anywhere on the map in this version...) and did some changes to the center, I'd consider the map in a good state.

In terms of the map center - I'd suggest replacing the level 9 Siege Golem with a level 11 Flesh Golem. This center creep camp just isn't intimidating enough at the moment, I've seen people creep it out with some fairly understrength armies. And possibly putting in some more intricate tile work and design - it's a rather large area of space for being so bland atm.

Actually it's intended for small units to be able to go through a small gap, but I'm not sure if this design decision was a good idea. This will be gone with the walls anyways.

And oh wow, I didn't knew about that russian map at all, thanks for telling me about it. Can you give me a link or something of where you found it?

In the next days I will try to get these ideas into the map.

 

[JSRGN]

I just did link it! It's in the attached files of my last post. If you mean where I *found* it? I'm pretty sure I got the map as a part of a package that Hightac, the FML/FFA Masters League chief admin sent to me on request. It seems like the FFA community has created or altered a couple of 24 player maps that aren't present on the Hive Workshop.

Mr.Light is a Russian ffa player who *really* likes playing Random Heroes for some reason. I see him pretty often in the channel Clan FFA on Northrend. He's probably also on the FML discord server.

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

I guess Walmart expanded. Hehe.

 

[FranzVader_CZ]

This map is a great 24 players map and really popular on battle.net. I like to play the variant 2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2

 

[T.Nick]

This map is a great 24 players map and really popular on battle.net. I like to play the variant 2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2v2

Thank you! I'm very happy to hear that