Kathmaral Saga, The Journey

[VanAndro]

This campaign turned out to be a very pleasant surprise: beautiful terrain that made me want to see every corner of it; choice between 2 races; randomly appearing items in my inventory (because I wasn't trying to make any specific item - I just took them with the one character and whatever. I got quite strong items like that with the help of Wendigo Skin and Horn).

I didn't like how the characters and both types of orcs looked. All units with few exceptions seemed slightly flattened to me throughout. Kael's voice surprised me and was also strange to me the whole time. Somehow it doesn't connect with the image of an orc.

The game difficulty on "Normal" is the same or close to that of the standard WC3 campaign. On 1.27 it runs without any issues. I couldn't even see the already known issues. Thanks for sharing. I will look around for a sequel.

 

[Bigger worse]

Hello ,man.Can i translate this campaign into chinese?

 

[xdxdxd]

very nice campaign both story and gameplay

 

[Nyctaeus]

I say this one was a pleasant surprise.

The story flows like a nice introduction to a new "explore unknown land" setting. The worldbuilding is a bit scarce in detail, but I can't say it comes without a strong themes on it's own. Missions are mechanically interesting, bossfights are fun and well-balanced and everything is served with a dripping of cool reskins that makes heroes and units unique, and beautiful [however a bit monotonous] terrain work. Custom item system is also a welcome and cool addition even if it quickly fills the inventory. This issue can be easily managed with some sort of stash akin to the one from Malfurion's Quest. I like the writing. Character creations come with distinct personallities that just like worldbuilding in general, simply asks for more detail work.

Additional point goes for playing orcs, and portraying them different then typical orcs in most fantasy settings. Orcs here feels like a fully-fledged civilization rather then collection of semi-savage tribes. Default pick for most creators would be humans simply because we're humans, but this project explore different themes and does not seem to be afraid of exploring orc themes in it's own way.

I definitely want to play more. This is a small, but polished and well-made gem with visible passion put into development.

 

[Nubelial]

I say this one was a pleasant surprise.

The story flows like a nice introduction to a new "explore unknown land" setting. The worldbuilding is a bit scarce in detail, but I can't say it comes without a strong themes on it's own. Missions are mechanically interesting, bossfights are fun and well-balanced and everything is served with a dripping of cool reskins that makes heroes and units unique, and beautiful [however a bit monotonous] terrain work. Custom item system is also a welcome and cool addition even if it quickly fills the inventory. This issue can be easily managed with some sort of stash akin to the one from Malfurion's Quest. I like the writing. Character creations come with distinct personallities that just like worldbuilding in general, simply asks for more detail work.

Additional point goes for playing orcs, and portraying them different then typical orcs in most fantasy settings. Orcs here feels like a fully-fledged civilization rather then collection of semi-savage tribes. Default pick for most creators would be humans simply because we're humans, but this project explore different themes and does not seem to be afraid of exploring orc themes in it's own way.

I definitely want to play more. This is a small, but polished and well-made gem with visible passion put into development.

Thanks for coming back to the post to comment.
I understand what you mention about the items and the slots, the system i made was inefficient, we currently have an improved one, but it will be for the next project, we're just on vacation haha

 

[Exarch Lightcarol]

Plot: The characterization is very well thought out. I'd like to see something in the follow up story that would give Marak heartburn. Before I played the campaign, I read the introduction thinking that there was a conflict between the two orc forces and that we were going to try to fix that. But the actual gameplay, where we're just replacing one set of tech trees (which has been great, of course), doesn't seem to live up to my mental expectations.
Gameplay: tons of new skins, models and icons. I'd like to see the "Worker" tag removed from the Kodo no rider, which now needs to be specifically set to patrol to avoid that annoying prompt in the bottom left corner.

 

[Jayborino]

I plan to begin a showcase series soon. After playing only 1 map so far, I can say this is already quite impressive. The item system seems a bit confusing, but I'm just going to hold on to what I pick up and hope I can make the scroll and get lucky enough for a Wendigo reagent.

 

[U-K6]

if i remember correctly the items required for the scroll are all present in the map where you actually make the scroll and think every item required is mentioned on that map

I plan to begin a showcase series soon. After playing only 1 map so far, I can say this is already quite impressive. The item system seems a bit confusing, but I'm just going to hold on to what I pick up and hope I can make the scroll and get lucky enough for a Wendigo reagent.

 

[Tryce09]

I plan to begin a showcase series soon. After playing only 1 map so far, I can say this is already quite impressive. The item system seems a bit confusing, but I'm just going to hold on to what I pick up and hope I can make the scroll and get lucky enough for a Wendigo reagent.

Hello! Sorry for not answer soon,

Yeah the item system is a little archaic because we based of the Dota, specially to create tier 3 item just tier2 item + special item(wendigo parts) + the scrolls. You can get the wendigo parts in both micro and macro chapters but you can only get the scrolls in the macro chapter(1 in a store and 1 around the same chapter). We decided in that way because the Tier 3 usually are really strong.

Thankfully the item system pass for 2 revisions so our next project has a more friendly and easy way to create a tier 3 item.

 

[VanAndro]

..... so our next project has a more friendly and easy way to create a tier 3 item.

Is there a possibility that you will please us with the new project next year?

 

[Tryce09]

Is there a possibility that you will please us with the new project next year?

We are optimistic, approximately half of the year 2024 should be ready, if nothing wrong happens of course.

 

[Morris]

I played this campaign when it was first released but didn't write a review. sorry for that.
seeing Jayborino showcase it made me wanna play it again.
Hopefully, we get to play your new project next year!

 

[Adrian0]

Really fun and intersting campaign, was a joy to play.
Apart from quite a few spelling errors I found this campaign interesting and enjoyable having a good story, fun dialog and an explore like feeling all through out with a nice item system and different heroes and races as your option.

 

[tulee]

Thought I would add some notes I wrote down from when I first played this campaign:

Hidden

Ch1
Nice to see each of the two main quests give us a taste of both sides of the orc factions.
Love the item combination system.

Ch2
Blademaster hero makes comment related to abandoned village from last mission, despite him not being there in ch1 at the time when they found that abandoned village.
When going near 1 rock golem at the start with Malak, it does its birth animation, then going near the 2nd, both of them do the birth animation (so first one we encounter does it x2).
Malak got to lvl 3 way to fast in this mission.
Maybe give a way for our next two heroes to explore the area Malak was in, since I had to drop items here that I didn't have enough room for Malak to carry.
Love the custom skins, especially the furbolg ones (Sarlin's is one of the best I have seen).
For the 2 wendigo bosses, only the right side pushes out to attack, left side stays in his corner waiting for us to come to him.
Great to have choice of which army faction for each map.
Love the tile sets mix. The snowy regions look especially good.

Ch3
Enjoyed this first RTS mission.

Ch4
No reason is given why the Furbolg who was sent after the Ice Giant went and fully betrayed the other furbolgs. It just said something about him not trusting the outsiders, then it went to him fully attacking us.
The AI ally that defends us is good - very nice. AI ally is best part of custom campaigns in my opinion.

Ch5
A hint about us being about to lose the Goblin hero would have been nice before going into the cave - many of my good items were on the Goblin.
Boss fight was good. It would have been really hard for people without the wolf summon item, since that was the key to quickly killing the altars that summoned the ghouls.
More questions than answers left after that fight.

General points
The lore in this campaign is really good--- there are hints at so much going on, and so much to come.
Really hope if you guys continue with this, you make it a 2nd campaign so we don't need to replay these 5 missions before starting your new stuff.
I love the blue coloring dancing around on the mountains at the end of the final cinematic-- it looked fantastic (added picture below).

Interesting issue playing this on 1.32 + -- Cannot save or load (causes game to crash). Even using f6 hotkey (quicksave) causes game to crash. I would be curious what about this campaign causes that, since almost all campaigns made on earlier versions of wc3 are completely compatible with 1.32+.

 

[deepstrasz]

Seems like a cute orc campaign. Not very fond of the story at the start but gets intricate after chapter 1. We don't get the proper background IMO for why they left to this island, continent or whatever the place is. With all the sea creatures being the enemy, gives you vibes of the original orc prologue (custom) campaign. Liked that you tried making the world tad different than Warcraft III's. There is some immersion. These orcs are however very Warcraft III Frost Wolf clan-like though. This is the orcs meet Monolith campaign

1. It's OK to kill the bears but taboo to pelt the wolves?
2. That sea(?) dragon simply came, destroyed the obelisk and went back. I'm not sure what to think of that.
3. Some eye candy stuff to be considered: Wendigos appearing out of nowhere is weird.
4. Everyone talks the same language.
5. The natives attacked them on sight but after the fight with the Wendigo bosses (which they didn't know about) they started speaking instead?
6. Some heroes don't have glow. It can simply be added: How to add Hero Glow without Modeling
7. Wogarth is the best. Sleep-fight-sleep.
8. While Marak shows some honour in not involving others in the fight against evil possessive forces, he suffers a bit from arrogance not accepting help as he definitely doesn't know if he'd be needing it or not.
9. They haven't talked to the natives, about their empty villages, the sea creatures and their worshiped obelisk as well as the sea dragon. I'm a bit disappointed. I presume that part would be revealed by the older orc and his party who left in the beginning? That, if he doesn't get corrupted like Rafault and the guardians. The sea creatures are possessed as well or they are direct followers of this dark force? Probably the first.

I think this deserves the effort of being finished. You don't need a million maps, another round of 5 would suffice I think.

 

[Tryce09]

Hello Deepstraz! Thank your for your opnion about the campaign.

Seems like a cute orc campaign. Not very fond of the story at the start but gets intricate after chapter 1. We don't get the proper background IMO for why they left to this island, continent or whatever the place is. With all the sea creatures being the enemy, gives you vibes of the original orc prologue (custom) campaign. Liked that you tried making the world tad different than Warcraft III's. There is some immersion. These orcs are however very Warcraft III Frost Wolf clan-like though. This is the orcs meet Monolith campaign

That feeling is because as our first campaign, I took most of the inspiration of Warcraft 3 RoC but with a few differences.
The proper background is mostly because we believe in that moment "The past isn't important but rather what come next", the ambiguity was useful early, sadly eventually wasn't good later.

It's OK to kill the bears but taboo to pelt the wolves?

That dialogue is from a old version where in the background most of the orc's wolves were borderline extinct, by mistake, I never changed it.

That sea(?) dragon simply came, destroyed the obelisk and went back. I'm not sure what to think of that.

Many of the mysteries of Kathmaral

Spoiler

That sea dragon is neutral-good and foreshadowing something about the Obelisk

Some eye candy stuff to be considered: Wendigos appearing out of nowhere is weird.

The wendigo were designed to be a "starter enemy" and in the early version were plot device to get wolves for the orcs(point 1) also get wendigo units.

Everyone talks the same language.

That created a fight between Nubelial and I, but for the sake of don't overcomplicate things we let it be.

Spoiler

It's because the early version the natives and the orcs have something REALLY important in common and that plot point still remain, they learn the same language for the same source.

The natives attacked them on sight but after the fight with the Wendigo bosses (which they didn't know about) they started speaking instead?

In that moment the Natives weren't ready to fight(between their warriors be defeated by the orcs and the wendigo attacks) so they take a more defensive approach.

Some heroes don't have glow. It can simply be added: How to add Hero Glow without Modeling

The wendigo heroes were new and we didn't bother of add the glow of their models, in the next project we add glows to the new models ASAP.

Wogarth is the best. Sleep-fight-sleep.

The friend has the don't worry, be happy on high levels.

While Marak shows some honour in not involving others in the fight against evil possessive forces, he suffers a bit from arrogance not accepting help as he definitely doesn't know if he'd be needing it or not.

Marak in the first 2 versions was just a Thrall, eventually I made him more like an Illdan but less of an idiot. His background will be explained later and why he believes he is worthless (despite being an important part of the Fleet).

Bonus

Spoiler

Marak was the leader of the Garabolg orcs, but to be more like a lone wolf he became what he is now and I created Sahrena and she took most of Marak's original dialogue + new stuff, unfortunately Sahrena was half-baked and because of that she don't feel like a proper leader of the entire Garabolg civilization.

They haven't talked to the natives, about their empty villages, the sea creatures and their worshiped obelisk as well as the sea dragon. I'm a bit disappointed. I presume that part would be revealed by the older orc and his party who left in the beginning? That, if he doesn't get corrupted like Rafault and the guardians. The sea creatures are possessed as well or they are direct followers of this dark force? Probably the first.

I understand the dissapointed we left too many question unresolved, and you are correct, many of the question would be aswering in the next arcs(the campaign was made to have 4 arcs, the next two focus in the other characters and the last one the final arc with everyone.

This spoilers will be answer the few questions with moderate spoilers

Spoiler

About the sea giant: They are a hostile race that has their own war in the sea and they are losing, that why they are 100% hostile with the orcs and allied of the Obelisk and the leader of the unknown creature of the last chapter. The massive sea giant of the intro would be the next "boss fight", they are the second main enemy after the wendigos(we scale the level of the enemies)
About the sea dragon: It is a neutral good creature that fights against both the sea giant and the dark forces of the Obelisk, its intervention saves the orcs on the coast.
About the second arc: In this arc, the orcs would face the Sea giants, get new allies and find more about the Obelisks.
About the empty villages:was work of the Obelisk and the dark forces, that why you find more hostiles natives in the mountain.
About the old orc: Mongul would be the main character of the third arc and would finally reveal the plot of the Obelisk.

I think this deserves the effort of being finished. You don't need a million maps, another round of 5 would suffice I think.

You will believe me if I tell you that the original plan was a campaign of 24 chapters? After understand that was a nonsenses we divide the campaign in two.

We actually managed to get to chapter 9, but we found a bug that blocks the chapter, we got demotivated and started working from 0 again, the second arc was also ready but since I added new characters, the maps needed urgent reworking and I ended up with a block creative that literally condemns the campaign

To finish this campaign we needed 9/10 chapters(that was the original draft, the second arc would have 3 chapters with 1 optional), the third arc 3 chapters, then the final arc just 3 chapter)

Then happen many thing even some personal some sadly I need to admit that kathmaral is discontinued.
But not everything is bad, the next project that could be a prequel(Brothers in arms) was also discontinue LOLOLOL, then after that we created 2 project but have the same fate.

After take a small vacations, become more autocritics and work more orderly, we are working in a new announced project, this time from the zero, so we have many liberties and we are doing fine so far.

We thank you once again your honest opinion also to anybody who comment and play, this project have good ideas, but badly executed that noted our inexperience to this kind of projects.

 

[deepstrasz]

Thanks a lot for the details. I truly appreciate it!

We actually managed to get to chapter 9, but we found a bug that blocks the chapter, we got demotivated and started working from 0 again, the second arc was also ready but since I added new characters, the maps needed urgent reworking and I ended up with a block creative that literally condemns the campaign

Eyy, don't fret. I can try to help you and maybe we could sort the bugs out. If anything you could also ask for help in the World Editor Help Zone forum.
I can also try helping out with the story (if that's what you were referring to you got stuck with). Not gonna do writing per se because that would defeat the point of you making the campaign, but I can give you directions and ideas for sure. You can even ask for ideas in the Idea Factory subforum of the Map Development forum.
Oh, well, maybe one day you'll reconsider and return to complete it.

 

[Armelior_is_back]

Then happen many thing even some personal some sadly I need to admit that kathmaral is discontinued.
But not everything is bad, the next project that could be a prequel(Brothers in arms) was also discontinue LOLOLOL, then after that we created 2 project but have the same fate.

After take a small vacations, become more autocritics and work more orderly, we are working in a new announced project, this time from the zero, so we have many liberties and we are doing fine so far.

That's sad to hear but motivation and inspiration can be fickle mistresses.
I hope whatever next project you have will show some elements of those 2 unfinished campaigns come back in one form or another.

 

[FallenStar]

The overall atmosphere and mood of the campaign were genuinely pleasant. Exploring the island step by step felt like we were slowly taking it under the Orcs' care. The enemies were fun to fight, and I enjoyed the abilities and units you made.I also liked the idea of starting new chapters with different factions. It gives players a reason to replay certain missions and see things from another angle.The dialogue and story were engaging, and the characters were surprisingly well written. It's not easy to create consistent characters, but these ones stay true to their ideals and personalities. Their abilities match who they are, the humor lands, and I was always curious to see where things were going.The map and terrain are unique. There's no Warcraft 3 campaign that looks quite like this. Spending so much time on the island felt rewarding, and I appreciate how consistent everything is with the lore.The base building missions were fun, and the variety of mini bosses and main bosses kept things interesting.Some of the models look great, though a few feel a bit out of place (like the Garabolg warlocks), but still, great work from your friend overall.

Some spoilers below so don't read if you haven't played it.

What I think could be improved:By the end, it's clear the story is meant to be big and broad, with lots of setups. The intro and epilogue are fantastic, and the worldbuilding from ships, forts, alliances, taming creatures feels rich. You really make the Orcs feel like true protagonists, and that's a huge strength.However, across all the chapters, very few of the questions raised actually get answered. I felt like I needed at least some lore or story payoffs along the way--not just results.
For example:
Why are the creatures on the island going mad?
What happened to the obelisks from chapter 1?
Who placed them?
Was it the dark sorcerer? Who even was he?
Why was the cave empty? no ritual, no lab, no visual storytelling?
Why doesn't Marak ever mention his master again, even though the master is in the thumbnail and was clearly set up for something?
These are the kinds of things that could've used at least partial answers. The sea creatures never return, the dragon from chapter 1 never appears again, and many mysteries are introduced but not explored. A little payoff would've gone a long way for me at least.
A good example would be this:The cave inside the mountain felt empty. Nothing to show what the villain had been doing. The boss was just standing there with no buildup, no clues. I would've used that moment to reveal something important. For example, Marak could enter a hidden chamber and discover a small lab or magical workspace, broken experiments, corrupted creatures, runes, anything that hints at what'd been affecting the island. As the player fights through the minions, Marak could comment on what he sees or piece together what the sorcerer has been doing. That would give the player some answers and make the confrontation feel earned.Instead, we just walk straight to the final boss without any of that buildup or explanation.

The character drama is understandable and well built, and they all have personality. I just wish their roles were a bit clearer for new players.
Kajiro the honorable, strategic military leader.
Sahrena playful, balanced, a mage but not as strong as Marak.
Marak feels like the main protagonist, powerful and calm, but I wish he shared more of what he discovered instead of keeping everything secret.
Nezli simple, honorable, caring, funny, and useful.
Gasha solid military captain.

I didn't crash at all during gameplay, only when trying to save or quit the campaign, which crashed the game every time.
Speaking of gameplay:Really freaking good. I don't care much about balance in single player campaigns. Players choose their own difficulty anyway. The units were fun, unique, and interesting to use. I love how many Orc factions and unit types you brought together.One thing I didn't like was the enemy unit readability in base building missions:
Wendigos all look the same
Water elementals all look the same
Crystal golems all look the same
They could use at least three distinct model variations each. Color and size alone aren't always enough.

Overall, congratulations, man. This campaign really captures the spirit of Warcraft 3, and the story is intriguing. You and your friend did a great job, and the cinematics were immersive and well done. I was immersed and interested in this arc. I personally wanted a bit more lore or story payoffs or answers, but even so, it's a strong and memorable experience.

I look forward to whatever you decide to make next, though I recommend, despite your urges, to remain consistent and expand on what you've showed in this campaign already, not prequels or other things.Just what we already have.Perhaps in future chapters we can begin exactly where we were left off.Marak going to search for his master, the spirit callers becoming interested and wary of what happened to the land.Perhaps now that we've dealt with most of the corruption, we'll explore deeper into the land to fix this once and for all.
Or, we're gonna look for the missing ships that didn't land in Katmaral, though I suspect the name of the campaign would change, haha

 

[Tryce09]

Hello Fallenstar! Thank you so much for the review, I gonna try your answers as much as possible with the less spoilers that I can!

What I think could be improved:By the end, it's clear the story is meant to be big and broad, with lots of setups.

The original Kathmaral was supposed to have like 24 chapters more or less, so the whole campaign would have been bigger and everything scale a little slow, with the rework of the last version the campaign would have been separate like 16 chapter at max + a second and third campaign to finish the overall story.

very few of the questions raised actually get answered.

That is one of our worst weakness, rather that get some answer we create more questions

Why are the creatures on the island going mad?

Overall Kathmaral is a continent and the mad creatures are mostly for local points, the main focus on dangerous in the first arc was the creature in the last chapter that affect the valley, but the wendigos happens by cycles, sometimes they get alphas and sometimes not.

What happened to the obelisks from chapter 1?

If you speak about the Obelisk of chapter 1(The one protected by the sea giant), that was destroyed by the sea dragon of nowhere , now the Monoliths in the coast are protected by the orcs.

Who placed them?

Both Monoliths and Obelisks are ancients and have exist on kathmaral for long time.

Spoiler

The only thing that I can say is that the Monoliths are a big deal and natural thing, meanwhile the Obelisk are artificials

Was it the dark sorcerer? Who even was he?

Spoiler

Wasn't a Sorcerer, was more or less a type of avatar/golem that have the same nature of the Obelisk, you can say that is... a puppet.

Why was the cave empty? no ritual, no lab, no visual storytelling?

If you speak about chapter 5, the whole chapter happens in a mountain trail, now the boss fight happens in open field, in the peak of the mountain not in a cave.

Spoiler

The creature was there just to spread it's influences, no need somekind of laboratory or ritual, can mindslave simple creatures and strongest one need to have a direct spell(something that it try with Nezli and Marak).

Why doesn't Marak ever mention his master again, even though the master is in the thumbnail and was clearly set up for something?

Well Mognul went with a entire expedition of warriors , with a other spirit caller and also Mognul is the strongest spellcaster of all the orc fleet so whatever Marak can do, Mognul can do it and even better. So Marak wasn't worry about him but rather he as worry to everybody else in the valley.

Spoiler

Mognul the sage was supposed to be the focus in the third arc of the campaign, the arc that actually explain A LOT of the story.

These are the kinds of things that could've used at least partial answers. The sea creatures never return, the dragon from chapter 1 never appears again, and many mysteries are introduced but not explored. A little payoff would've gone a long way for me at least.

Spoiler

All those would have address in the second arc, because Marak and friends went to the inner lands, they never touch the coast again, now there is another character that is also in the thumbnail and was the protagonist of the second arc

One thing I didn't like was the enemy unit readability in base building missions:
Wendigos all look the same
Water elementals all look the same
Crystal golems all look the same
They could use at least three distinct model variations each. Color and size alone aren't always enough.

Yes, unfortunaly the wendigos were the first main enemy from base building chapters, we have lucky that @Nubelial start working on skin to get a "boss special unit, and because we focus in created the new units for the orcs and those models, the wendigos became low priority.

Regarding the elementals and golems, they were added later as enemy base building, a was a colossal work rework to be more or less functional both in adventure maps + base building, that's why they feel also a... little overpowered in the base building section, but because were repetitive and their lack of "variation" of attack wave, we add enemy natives that were actually more diverses in attack waves.

I didn't crash at all during gameplay, only when trying to save or quit the campaign, which crashed the game every time.

The campaign was made by 1.27, unfortunaly we never test the campaign on reforged(just 1.27 and 1.29), running some tests, the Kathmaral posted here is the 2.0 , the Kathmaral 1.0(before the massive rework regarding heroes, factions, etc), works perfectly without crashes so far, but Kathmaral 2.0 just exploted, and because 2.0 add more units, more models, more spells, more triggers, unfortunaly WE HAVE NOT IDEA what can cause the crash, this discourage me to continue working on update a 1.6 version of this campaign with bug fixes, a better translate to english and rebalance of units and heroes. Warcraft 3 isn't friendly when you try to check correctly the files

Marak going to search for his master, the spirit callers becoming interested and wary of what happened to the land.Perhaps now that we've dealt with most of the corruption, we'll explore deeper into the land to fix this once and for all.
Or, we're gonna look for the missing ships that didn't land in Katmaral, though I suspect the name of the campaign would change, haha

Unfortunaly for Marak, after the first arc he went to a diplomatic mission, because the dude can't stop looking for danger for 5 minutes

The other missing ships was also part of the second arc that never get it's upgrade 2.0

Spoiler

That's right, the second arc was already made with the original kathmaral, but we removed it for this campaign because was about to get a rework like add new characters, split the two factions and add new enemies and units.

 

[Petar]

This was a beautiful journey, i really like the new island we explore and the characters.Reminded me of PS2 days story and adventure time.Will we get a part 2 to the story, like what happened with the other characters after the prologue?