Is Terran balanced?

[MGCǂSpectre]

Let's see the results.

Man, it's as flooded with 'balance Terran' threads as it was with 'give us chat channels/lan/clans' threads. As a Terran, Im worried by this stupidity.

http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/11818/

Some complete retards playing for the first time and will make threads how terran is too strong, wtf get out of sc2. Of course there are also others, I came across a Diamond but let me tell you - being in Diamond doesnt mean MUCH when there are 100+ divisions ya know? It won't happen with a single ladder or single leagues. So some Diamond ranked last of his league crying imba terran is not gonna convince me the little.

The only nerfs I see may be the cost of low resources and I think by +25 more gas or increasing the upgrades build time of say Concussive Shells, this is my 5 cents on nerfing my race. Saying their damage or abilities need a nerf, it's just moronic. That's my view.

 

[Itachi009]

1) terran is the beginner class, so i think right now there are more good terran players than any other race
2) terran got good advantages against other races in endgame if you let them tech and tech... they get an nearly unbeatable tech army, the right way to play against terrans is to rush, or to play on early squishis, which can be hard because they usually cave themselves inside their base with 2-3 buildings.

balance? i think since the other 2 races got perfect ways to rush, its still balanced

 

[PurplePoot]

Oh great, we don't need to spread the crying here.

TvZ is broken (this has nothing to do with Terran and everything to do with Zerg), but only really at the pro levels (doesn't really affect ladder; people just bitch about it because it's better than admitting they got outplayed). TvP is fine.

1) terran is the beginner class, so i think right now there are more good terran players than any other race

This is simply not true. In fact, statistics suggest that Terran is the hardest race to play at the lower levels, and at the higher levels the races are even. Protoss is also the most played race by a very large margin.

2) terran got good advantages against other races in endgame if you let them tech and tech... they get an nearly unbeatable tech army, the right way to play against terrans is to rush, or to play on early squishis, which can be hard because they usually cave themselves inside their base with 2-3 buildings.

This is also not true. Terran is actually the most low-tier focused race--their most commonly units are all tier 1 or 2, whereas many of the units that absolutely smash them (High Templar, Ultralisks, Brood Lords, etc) are tier 3. Terran actually only has one tier 3 unit (Battlecruisers), and while they are decent against Protoss (they suck against Zerg, mind you) they are generally too expensive to get in the numbers required to win with them.

balance? i think since the other 2 races got perfect ways to rush, its still balanced

And I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about with regards to melee.

 

[Grey Nightmare]

Nah, if any race is imba it's most certainly not Terran imo.

 

[Itachi009]

"This is simply not true. In fact, statistics suggest that Terran is the hardest race to play at the lower levels, and at the higher levels the races are even. Protoss is also the most played race by a very large margin."

-> now, look at your statistics, they say what i say, in league, terran has MOST wins (in percentages)

This is also not true. Terran is actually the most low-tier focused race--their most commonly units are all tier 1 or 2, whereas many of the units that absolutely smash them (High Templar, Ultralisks, Brood Lords, etc) are tier 3. Terran actually only has one tier 3 unit (Battlecruisers), and while they are decent against Protoss (they suck against Zerg, mind you) they are generally too expensive to get in the numbers required to win with them.

well, i didnt say they are high tier, but if you look at pro games or ask pro gamers (lastDinosaur for example), when terran got 3 bases and mass thors & co, the game is over if the enemy is protoss

And I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about with regards to melee.

and i really don´t think you have any idea what you´re talking about... which bnet name, how many games did u played? against which races? i was rank 23 diamond in 1v1 and played about 60 games, and in every single game it was 100% balanced like i wrote, there are just different ways to win against each race

 

[Agarwa3n]

Well the other races could use some reduced upgrade costs in some low tier units like terran do. E.g. Concussive Shells cost 50/50, Charge or Gravitic boosters (for toss) and Pneumatised Carapace or Glial Reconstitution (for zerg) could also be 50/50. Small things like that are more than enought, I think.

 

[PurplePoot]

-> now, look at your statistics, they say what i say, in league, terran has MOST wins (in percentages)

By 0.3% in diamond, and they are behind in bronze (when you were saying they were the easiest to play) by 3%?

well, i didnt say they are high tier, but if you look at pro games or ask pro gamers (lastDinosaur for example), when terran got 3 bases and mass thors & co, the game is over if the enemy is protoss

Would you mind providing a single pro replay where a Terran wins a TvP with mass thors? Immortals and Zealots both smash thors, not to mention Void Rays.

and i really don´t think you have any idea what you´re talking about... which bnet name, how many games did u played? against which races? i was rank 23 diamond in 1v1 and played about 60 games, and in every single game it was 100% balanced like i wrote, there are just different ways to win against each race

I've played around 150 1v1 games in the beta (diamond, and platinum before diamond existed) and 23 1v1 games since release (been having more fun in 4v4 on teamspeak, and I spent a week playing the campaign) as platinum (17-6, being paired up against diamonds, BNet is just taking its time to promote me).

(Oh, and please use the quote feature rather than that colour spam)

Well the other races could use some reduced upgrade costs in some low tier units like terran do. E.g. Concussive Shells cost 50/50, Charge or Gravitic boosters (for toss) and Pneumatised Carapace or Glial Reconstitution (for zerg) could also be 50/50. Small things like that are more than enought, I think.

Except that those upgrades are way better than concussive shells (also, what is gravitic boosters? Void ray MS or something?)?

 

[Itachi009]

By 0.3% in diamond, and they are behind in bronze (when you were saying they were the easiest to play) by 3%?

no missunderstoods anymore: (wins by league, Random-Protoss-Terran-Zerg)
Diamond 55.53% (364,727) 55.76% (1,514,023) 56.06% (1,240,647) 55.56% (1,030,549)
Platinum 55.49% (462,502) 55.19% (1,582,078) 55.62% (1,307,842) 55.04% (959,362)
Gold 52.59% (457,545) 52.30% (1,826,230) 52.62% (1,486,610) 52.32% (1,036,614)
Silver 49.71% (381,215) 49.55% (1,939,744) 49.59% (1,634,727) 49.61% (1,077,879)
Bronze 42.56% (300,347) 43.03% (1,988,257) 40.19% (2,490,782) 42.67% (1,073,337)

in Diamond they got in average 0.4% more wins
in Platinum they got in average 0.55% more wins
in Gold they got in average 0.31% more wins
in Silver they got in average 0.03% more wins
in Bronze they got in average 2.5% less wins

and note that in bronze people who probably play the first or second time are in and usually you are in silver after 5 wins

I've played around 150 1v1 games in the beta (diamond, and platinum before diamond existed) and 23 1v1 games since release (been having more fun in 4v4 on teamspeak, and I spent a week playing the campaign) as platinum (17-6, being paired up against diamonds, BNet is just taking its time to promote me).

i´ve played around 17000 1v1 in the beta, but where is the proof?

 

[tagg1080]

The more and more I play and watch games, the more I realize that this game is quite balanced.

People much better than you or I have played MANY more games then all of us put together, and they are fine with it.

That means that I am fine with it.

i´ve player around 17000 1v1 in the beta, but where is the proof?

Poot is pretty damn good, and he put up some replays of himself owning me on the replay thread, go check them out.

Oh, and just a pet peeve of mine, please try to use proper english; people don't take you seriously when you type like that.

 

[PurplePoot]

i´ve player around 17000 1v1 in the beta, but where is the proof?

You can feel free to ask people like HINDYhat or mrzwach that I play with and played with in the beta if it's really that important to you.

 

[Itachi009]

You can feel free to ask people like HINDYhat or mrzwach that I play with and played with in the beta if it's really that important to you.

that was just sarkasm sry

 

[HINDYhat]

I like how people are just cnp'ing the opinions of pro-gamers when they really aren't relevant at all to their level of play.

 

[PurplePoot]

I like how people are just cnp'ing the opinions of pro-gamers when they really aren't relevant at all to their level of play.

Gives them an excuse to justify their losses.

 

[tagg1080]

What are your guys' thoughts on Thor?

I still think that the goliaths were a better choice, and I have yet to be in a game where the Thor really made the difference, they are nice, but don't really seem to be the hulking mass that they apear to be, more of just a support.

Or am I just being a noob?

 

[Itachi009]

What are your guys' thoughts on Thor?

I still think that the goliaths were a better choice, and I have yet to be in a game where the Thor really made the difference, they are nice, but don't really seem to be the hulking mass that they apear to be, more of just a support.

Or am I just being a noob?

you missunderstand me, i didnt say that every terran should build mass thors, i said "thors & co" which was supposed to be a metaphor for "tech army"

 

[PurplePoot]

Eh, mech has a giant weakness to immortals. I feel a lot more comfortable with bio or 1/1/1 in TvP.

 

[tagg1080]

you missunderstand me, i didnt say that every terran should build mass thors, i said "thors & co" which was supposed to be a metaphor for "tech army"

I wasn't aiming that at you.


I was just trying to bring it up, because I think that Thors don't really have a good place in the Terran army, and that would fall under a possible "balance" thread.

 

[mrzwach]

The reason why TvZ is imba at high levels of play is because the terran player can effectively block scouting from the zerg player for a moderate window of time (from the first drone getting shot by a marine+walloff until the zerg can tech to lair and get overlord speed/changelings). The Terran can then pursue a variety of different builds, provided the zerg does not properly guess what build they are pursuing, they may not produce adequate counters and will thus lose.

Not saying its extremely imba or uncounterable, but it does seem to give Terran players a significant advantage over equally skilled (or even better) zerg players. In any event, this hardly makes a difference anywhere except the very top tier of diamond.

Terran Mech (mech, not tech ._.) armies are really not that imba. Removing the gay ass time limit on neural parasite would be nice, but I really don't think its entirely necessary (yet).

@Thors, mutalisk rape in a can. Also rather effective vs roaches and shit, or so I hear.


Also, early marauder pushes in PvT might be a little imbalanced due to the effectiveness of CS, and how easy it is to get it, but I don't play enough PvT 1v1 games to really make a fair judgement of such. Bumping down charge that much would be foolish.

 

[tagg1080]

Also, early marauder pushes in PvT might be a little imbalanced due to the effectiveness of CS, and how easy it is to get it, but I don't play enough PvT 1v1 games to really make a fair judgement of such. Bumping down charge that much would be foolish.

If you go to stalkers, and ignore zealots, (yes, you heard me), then you can fairly easily, (with good micro and positioning), hold off the marauder push.

It is a very hard thing to stop, you really need to scout it, zealots would get eaten.

 

[HINDYhat]

If you go to stalkers, and ignore zealots, (yes, you heard me), then you can fairly easily, (with good micro and positioning), hold off the marauder push.

It is a very hard thing to stop, you really need to scout it, zealots would get eaten.

No, you pretty much need a good composition of stalkers and zealots, because marauders beat stalkers 1 on 1. Also, yeah early marauders in TvP is hard to stop if you don't have good micro and a good composition of units, but that doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Just means it's effective.

 

[Itachi009]

If you go to stalkers, and ignore zealots, (yes, you heard me), then you can fairly easily, (with good micro and positioning), hold off the marauder push.

It is a very hard thing to stop, you really need to scout it, zealots would get eaten.

damn right

 

[HINDYhat]

Except nobody does an early marauder push against protoss without getting concussive shells, and stalkers have the same attack range as marauders.

 

[mrzwach]

Also stalkers only have a 0.06 second faster attack speed, so essentially kiting does literally nothing for you. Also, concussive shells :\

 

[Itachi009]

sry my fault, both got 6 yards, i confounded them with marines or something else

 

[Nillere]

Well, i myself think terran is as balanced as the other races. I personally think that it's the way you play them that counts, and of course your skill level.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Also, early marauder pushes in PvT might be a little imbalanced due to the effectiveness of CS, and how easy it is to get it, but I don't play enough PvT 1v1 games to really make a fair judgement of such. Bumping down charge that much would be foolish.

About Marauders vs toss - I own low skilled in 5 minutes or so, I get stopped and even lose by say Diamond. I think they are balanced. I could've showed you early sentry force wall blocking my marauders 2 times making me lose them, I was ggfied early. I wouldnt say CS is imba with its current cost and time if you know how to play it.

Thors are perfect for vs Zerg, also in TvT whoever gets more thors, wins.

Where did you take these percentages from? The only ladder I see is:
http://sc2ranks.com/

And thanks for the results, it seems those who create threads at bnet forums are just f*ggots who just lost a game vs terran and rage with no apparent skill and idc that someone was in diamond, if he cries about terran imba, no skiller. I would bash them but I wouldnt like to have a bad name on my account, I would simply ignore, though this big wave of posts may make Blizzard nerf terran cause of their foolishness.

 

[kola]

didnt read the previous post, but terrans are balanced just that they are easier to understand and easier for New players.

 

[tagg1080]

No, you pretty much need a good composition of stalkers and zealots, because marauders beat stalkers 1 on 1. Also, yeah early marauders in TvP is hard to stop if you don't have good micro and a good composition of units, but that doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Just means it's effective.

I can't get my zealots do do much more than just get raped, do you have a replay of them not? I would like to see how it is done.

To Thors: Soooo, other than mutas, what are they good for?

 

[mrzwach]

Also, @zerg having less wins:

Zerg has significantly less players than either protoss or terran. Additionally, few new players choose to play zerg - most of the zerg players now came from BW or WC3. This is why there are more zergs in diamond as a percentage of zerg players overall. Also, since they are a small group, less people = less wins.

@Thors, they are good against roaches

 

[HINDYhat]

What I've seen is you send like 3 probes or so to attack the marauders, a zealot or two and a stalker or two. The marauders can't really kite so well when there are like 6 units attacking them. If they don't attack the stalker, it can gets shots off every time the marauders try to kite. If they don't attack the zealot, it can rape the marauders. I don't have a replay of this, but I think Pewt does. Ask him about a tournament game he played vs spacko where Pewt tries to do early marauder pressure and spacko holds it off and wins.

Also, thors are awesome against stalkers. There probably is a plethora of units that thors rape but I'm not a terran player so I don't really know.

 

[PurplePoot]

I was just trying to bring it up, because I think that Thors don't really have a good place in the Terran army, and that would fall under a possible "balance" thread.

TvZ. Some people use them in TvT but I really don't like them in it.

also in TvT whoever gets more thors, wins.

Spoken like someone who has absolutely no idea how to play TvT. If you're in North America I would be happy to demonstrate in a best of however many.

--

Thors trash a lot of high-DPS low-health units (Siege Tanks [in small numbers], Hydralisks, Stalkers, etc) and are decent against tougher units (Roaches). They are more or less tier 2.5 marines in that they perform pretty well against most units.

 

[Lethien]

way overpowered in defence, weak air units...
'no'

unless u mean if they are too powerfull or not, then I would say yes, they are balanced

 

[Dr Super Good]

Thors are terrans major answer to mutalisk spammage. As one of the only light air units thors deal pretty painful splash damage to them. Thus it limits the situations that mutalisks can be used on terrans, especially ones which teched land mechanical heavilly. Additionally thors cannon attack is useful at targeting piority like colossus and OHKOs most land units (although it used to counter ultralisks but they no longer get stunned so do not use thors to counter them). Thors are also good against any low enduance low number unit because they deal a lot of damage a hit so armor is mostly meaningless.

Problem with thors is next to mutalisks, their AA can be ignored compared to a viking and so it is very viable to counter them with air units. Also the yamato cannon of battlecruisers makes far better anti piority as it disables the unit from combat much less and is longer range and near retreat proof. They are also physically large units with very slow attack rate so large numbers of melee overwhelm them easilly due to large area to hit and they lack the mass to plough out of mobs.

The real problem with them are their counters. The immortal cost less than thors and are more numerous than thors as well as having a physical damage boost against thors (bonous against that type of unit) and additionally result in massive damage wastage from thors due to their special shield (wasted damage in that ammount = bad). Yes the zerg will not send in mutalisks if you have thors but they sure as hell will send in zerglings and ultalisks, zerglings being hard to kill in number due to slow attack rate (also speedlings are good against siege tanks which you will likly also have) and ultralisks dealing insane damage to thors due to damage bonus and lets not forget that they could send in some broodlords (not light air) as support or a whole lot of other nasty things. As for terrans, I guess spamming maurders would probably take thors down due to bonus vs armored and insane attack rate but that is a wild guess.


Eariler you lot were arguing over <1% difference in average winnings. That is rediclous and stupid because any element of luck at all can cause a larger drift in results larger to that, including fluctuations in user behaviours. A proper imballence may be present if a noticable difference was occuring, like a 2 or 5 % difference which would show there is something with an unfair advantage present resulting in a definate higher winning chance. As it is atmost 1 or 2 fine tunnings may occur to make the game fit the design better but the results currently do prove that ballence is pretty near perfect. Ofcourse ballencing will probably be restarted if the expansions of SC2 are anything like those of SC1 or WC3 and new melee units are added into the game but until then I seriously doubt there will be any major gameplay changes.

Ofcourse the lower leagues data is completly usless. You can pretty much ignore bronze as it is filled with people who get leveld by medium AI (which something as dumb as spamming mmm works against even without adrenlin). Silver and gold allow you to pick up any differences in difficulty levels of races cause if one noticably exceeds the other here it means that something a race does is hard to counter or another race is harder to use. Only in the top 2 leagues can the data be used for ballence reports cause skill is starting to reach maximum human levels (especially in the top league) so any large descrepiency here usually means some tactic for a race is too strong or lacks effective counters to make up for it.

Additionally the average wins sum up past 100% Thus I would generally say they count TvT into the wins so if terran players play more games against terran players (where there will always be a win) it could upset the win rates.

 

[Rui]

Void Rays don't seem like a very good idea versus Thors because of the anti-air AoE attacks. In team games, Thors are very annoying because when you see them coming you're usually not ready for it and there's no time to get the counter. Knowing how often people like to go for them, I usually have a few Immortals in the back, but I found High Templars also come in handy if the Thors have full energy; it's straight 200 damage. And the Psionic Storm still manages to hit a few, making the work much easier for Immortals.

P.S. -- As for the Terran being imba, well, I find that Marines, Marauders and Medivacs are low tier and not very expensive, thus easy to get and very effective. I still need to figure out how to beat this combo with Zerg; Zerglings can't even get close, Roaches get pawned by Marauders, tier 2 air is not effective either. A good number of Hydralisks is necessary, but so is a unit type that can hold the front for them, and, like I said, there doesn't seem to be any. Numbers, you'll say. Even with Queens, I don't think the Zerg get enough larvae for this.
...But I'm suspicious for not particularly liking the melee game, so prove me wrong.

 

[PurplePoot]

Thors' AoE is pathetic and their damage is essentially 0 against armoured air. Void Rays are fine against them.

 

[HINDYhat]

There are several things you could do against MMM. I think banelings would work, infestor+ling, ultralisk, etc. Roach/hydra pretty much works too.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Void rays you split into multiple control groups to take on thors. Only if you cluster them together will the thor splash make up for the fact the damage output is pretty low. Additionally void rays are super effective against thors (bonus against armored or something like that) and thor's high hitpoints mean that void rays can easilly hit tier 3 damage output which deals 62 damage per second to them per void ray or something crazy (fully upgraded level 3 weapon). Additionally they only take 2 population each and are slightly cheaper than thors so will be more numerous. Once you hit maximum damage output any number of thors is doomed as long as you have a sizable stack cause thors can not retreat if the damage gets too high due to being slower than voidrays.

Void rays are only weak against units with too little health to allow their beam to upgrade (marines), direct AA counters and units which out range and speed them (if you can run and let their beams cool off, they have to start from low DPS output).

The biggest mistake I see people making is trying to defend an expansion when 5 or so voidrays have hit maximum power. They then lose their army and let the void rays charge up full on their base (end game time). Fortunatly it was against an AI so I saved them from humiliation via my own void rays.

 

[StormWarriors2]

Void Rays are very easy to kill. Thanks to alot of marines.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Yes but marines are very easy to kill thanks to high templars (or colossus but those are weak to vikings). So do not just spam out marines as the enemy my be trying to make you think he is going void rays and instead is manipulating you into something easy to kill.

 

[StormWarriors2]

Banshees fix high templars. They also fix collossus. Also i now counters.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Banshees do not fix void rays however. Also to get banshees it means irrecting lots of air facilities, which allows your protoss to construct counters.

 

[mrzwach]

Thors are perfect for vs Zerg, also in TvT whoever gets more thors, wins.

TvT is essentially viking-marine-tank, with a couple cloakshees for harassment and shit. Don't think anyone really goes for mas\s thors; generally its whoever has more vikings (and thus air superiority, and thus vision for their tanks) wins.

 

[TheDanish]

Diamond Terran here. Terran is overall balanced but a couple issues make certain matchups pain in lower leagues.

TvP. Marines + Marauders eat Stalkers + Zealots for breakfast until Charge comes out. Concussive Shells is stupid cheap and allows Marauders to have a field day vs. Zealots, and they hard counter Stalkers as it is. Combine that with early Terran access to Ghosts with EMP and you have a bioball strategy that is frustrating for low-league Protoss players. MM can be fended off with Zealots/Stalkers, but only by utilizing effective micro, which is hardly fair when the Terran player can pretty much attack-move his way to victory.

In Diamond this becomes less apparent as both sides' micro improves. So balanced for higher levels of play? Yes (though TvZ is a different issue on the Zerg side of things). Balanced for medium levels? Not so much.

 

[PurplePoot]

Ugh, High Templars beat Banshees and not the other way around. Ever heard of Feedback?

(Obviously it's assumed that you aren't making only High Templars)

TvT is not Marine/Tank/Viking. It's Tank/Viking or maybe Marauder/Tank/Viking, often with a late game transition into Battlecruisers if it gets that far.

I'm really confused about how effective kiting is "attack-move" while keeping your Zealots in front of your Stalkers is "effective micro". In fact, Terran's extremely poor performance in the Bronze league would suggest that they are not a particularly strong 1a2a3a race.

 

[Dr Super Good]

PurplePoot, many bronze players also think that rushing to battlecruisers or thors is an instant win or if they do spam infantry they do not spam them with upgrades or medivacs (only later). Ofcourse you could just get some anti infantry counters or just rush them with a few zealots to win.

I suspect terrans are so bad in bronze because all the bad players hear people moaning that they are rigged etc and end up losing with them or they think they are the easiest race so often use it for their first pvp games. Personally I find zerg to be the hardest race to play against AI and always seem to be behind my millatry stength that I have compared to when I am protoss or terran.

The results will gain accuracy as the influx of new people drops so that those who are in bronze actually are not just new or misplaced people.

 

[PurplePoot]

Well, seeing as more people play Protoss than every other race, yeah... about that.

Also, it's not like Terran is the only turtle/tech race in Bronze. Everyone does, or masses a big T1 ball (Terran are particularly fond of MMM in Bronze).

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Spoken like someone who has absolutely no idea how to play TvT. If you're in North America I would be happy to demonstrate in a best of however many.

Are you joking? I happen to win most of my mirror games because in the first minutes when you push, he has the same, then it's a matter of micro, like who will kill who first. And since I'm the one with faster reflexes and control, thx to doing that in the last 5-6-7 years, you know what happens.

What I mean, is not that I mass thors like a nub, it starts the usual marine/tank push, if the terran drives me back, we get some tiny fights with also some vikings or banshee. If I decide to mass vikings, he does some thors. I also start ding thors to counter his, he has more thors than me, his 4-5 thors+ 4-5 tanks kill my 1-2 thors and less tanks.

I lost like that on Steppes of War the way I described, like 2-3 times in beta, and I dislike that map for mirror. Hope it's now clear. Cause all I do is from pro replays, dont think i do some noob shit - Well the choice of thors is my personal choice if he also has thors. I get weaker in some of the late games.

 

[PurplePoot]

Why would you have both less thors and less tanks?

Anyhow, I'll go no thors all tanks and beat either of those strategies, thanks. TvT is Tank/Viking with occasional Marauders and then possibly Battlecruisers late game, all of which (except Vikings obviously) obliterate Thors.

Edit: I should clarify that I am still happy to play some TvT with you if you disagree and are on the North American server.

 

[StormWarriors2]

Actually i pwned thors by postioning my siegetanks out of their range. So they took alot of damage from my siegetanks and my marines finished them off.

 

[doombringer]

Actually sorry to break the party here but if you go and take a look at the Team Liquid forums (a very serious competitive SC forum with a lot of the professional players) there is a very common consensus that Terran versus Zerg currently heavily favors terrans, so much in fact that some professional zerg players are changing to terran because they are unable to compete as seen here

However it is still undecided if this imbalance would be better solved by changing zerg (might disrupt the very balanced and intense ZvZ) or change Terrans (TvP is considered balanced atm)

Some interesting reading about current thoughts on the state of TvZ and possible changes

Here
and Here