Insanity Attack v4.5

[Moderator]

15:38, 7th May 2015
Orcnet:

Damn I manage to last a few minutes from those excessive siege units attacking me from everywhere, it would be nice if siege units has level hp and damage, while pierce or normal units have big base damage and considerably some high hit points or so, that way my base would not explode in less than seconds whenever I establish a base.

Also I suggest increasing the speed of constructing buildings since the map is full tons of enemy creeps, this gives me and my team extreme disadvantage in keeping up the construction.

Overall, map can be approved and I really had fun lasting the fight.

 

[blancfaye7]

Please tell me if there is anything I missed out to fill up the information about this map. Thank you.

 

[Kino]

You have created what is arguably the worst tutorial in the history of anything.
It combines all the worst elements of game tutorials (unnecessary hand holding, loss of control) and uses them in the same tutorial?

Do you honestly believe that in the year 2015, people need a tutorial on how to use the standard build interface?
Also why is the "real game" only playable via LAN?

Balance wise, the game is broken.
If you lose any building, you will never be able to build it back (build times are atrociously slow). But that doesn't matter, because the game can be beaten without building a thing. Also, because you have so many units, your pathing system breaks after about 3 mins of play.

Blink is pointless since a fifteen second cast time will never be a good idea.

You can have the best description, custom music, load-screens etc.
But you lack any real map worth playing, so none of that matters.
Its a real pity that a map that was insta-rejected last month for lack of description, basically was a better version of this.

Edit: Issues fixed

 

[blancfaye7]

You have created what is arguably the worst tutorial in the history of anything.
It combines all the worst elements of game tutorials (unnecessary hand holding, loss of control) and uses them in the same tutorial?

Do you honestly believe that in the year 2015, people need a tutorial on how to use the standard build interface?
Also why is the "real game" only playable via LAN?

Balance wise, the game is broken.
If you lose any building, you will never be able to build it back (build times are atrociously slow). But that doesn't matter, because the game can be beaten without building a thing. Also, because you have so many units, your pathing system breaks after about 3 mins of play.

Blink is pointless since a fifteen second cast time will never be a good idea.

You can have the best description, custom music, load-screens etc.
But you lack any real map worth playing, so none of that matters.
Its a real pity that a map that was insta-rejected last month for lack of description, basically was a better version of this.

Finally, some real comments.
May you enumerate your suggestions of how I can improve the game?
I shall edit the SinglePlayer scripts by then, if it is unreasonable.

How is it broken? Is it also broken in Gold and Lumber? Should I reduce the number of units then (enemy side) and increase their quality? But then again... that would make the player number reduce, which is totally okay for me.

Thanks for commenting on Blink. I will edit it to something better, or remove it completely.

That is not a tutorial about using the build interface. It's about setting the players of how the game can be played and what vital buildings can be used in the duration of the game. You can comment further of how I can improve that, because that wasn't supposedly the point of the tutorial at all.

 

[SpasMaster]

You have created what is arguably the worst tutorial in the history of anything.
It combines all the worst elements of game tutorials (unnecessary hand holding, loss of control) and uses them in the same tutorial?

Do you honestly believe that in the year 2015, people need a tutorial on how to use the standard build interface?
Also why is the "real game" only playable via LAN?

Balance wise, the game is broken.
If you lose any building, you will never be able to build it back (build times are atrociously slow). But that doesn't matter, because the game can be beaten without building a thing. Also, because you have so many units, your pathing system breaks after about 3 mins of play.

Blink is pointless since a fifteen second cast time will never be a good idea.

You can have the best description, custom music, load-screens etc.
But you lack any real map worth playing, so none of that matters.
Its a real pity that a map that was insta-rejected last month for lack of description, basically was a better version of this.

Your attitude isn't helping anyone here. Giving criticisms is one thing, bashing someone's work is another. Using words like "worst", "X ability is pointless", "your game is broken", "not worth playing", etc can only beat down the enthusiasm of a mapmaker. Why don't you help him instead of bashing him? Use terms like "I'd advice you to do that", "you can improve X, Y", "that thing isn't working properly" and so on. I am sure you know the drill, but you still go full offensive mode on the dude for no apperant reason.

 

[Kino]

How is it broken? Is it also broken in Gold and Lumber? Should I reduce the number of units then (enemy side) and increase their quality? But then again... that would make the player number reduce, which is totally okay for me.

As I already explained.
- Your pathing system breaks after about 3 minutes. Your game uses a fixed length of 1 hour 20 mins, this means that for a vast majority of game time, your pathing is not working.
- Game can be beaten without building anything thanks to reason 1.

That is not a tutorial about using the build interface. It's about setting the players of how the game can be played and what vital buildings can be used in the duration of the game. You can comment further of how I can improve that, because that wasn't supposedly the point of the tutorial at all.

Thing is that your map is far, far too simple to even warrant a tutorial, let alone one that so stupidly restrictive. Simply giving the player the freedom to build and experiment with whatever would be a better new user experience anyday.
You combine that with the map being non playable in single player, and the experience is really cringe-y.
Despite that, I gave a damn to play out this map.
I can assure you most people will not.

Your attitude isn't helping anyone here. Giving criticisms is one thing, bashing someone's work is another. Using words like "worst", "X ability is pointless", "your game is broken", "not worth playing", etc can only beat down the enthusiasm of a mapmaker. Why don't you help him instead of bashing him? Use terms like "I'd advice you to do that", "you can improve X, Y", "that thing isn't working properly" and so on. I am sure you know the drill, but you still go full offensive mode on the dude for no apperant reason.

If I wanted to go full offensive, I would insult the creator, not the map.

I only use words like "worst" because I truly have never seen a tutorial this ham-fisted and pointless in its delivery. You want a see a map that treats its players like idiots? here you go.

I only use words like "useless" on certain abilities, because they are so conceptually broken that no amount of buffing or number tweaking can justify the player using them as a sound tactical option.

If anything, its probably because this map was the definition of all presentation, no substance. Which left me rather disappointed.

 

[blancfaye7]

As I already explained.
- Your pathing system breaks after about 3 minutes. Your game uses a fixed length of 1 hour 20 mins, this means that for a vast majority of game time, your pathing is not working.
- Game can be beaten without building anything thanks to reason 1.




Thing is that your map is far, far too simple to even warrant a tutorial, let alone one that so stupidly restrictive. Simply giving the player the freedom to build and experiment with whatever would be a better new user experience anyday.
You combine that with the map being non playable in single player, and the experience is really cringe-y.
Despite that, I gave a damn to play out this map.
I can assure you most people will not.



If I wanted to go full offensive, I would insult the creator, not the map.

I only use words like "worst" because I truly have never seen a tutorial this ham-fisted and pointless in its delivery. You want a see a map that treats its players like idiots? here you go.

I only use words like "useless" on certain abilities, because they are so conceptually broken that no amount of buffing or number tweaking can justify the player using them as a sound tactical option.

If anything, its probably because this map was the definition of all presentation, no substance. Which left me rather disappointed.

Alright thanks for the review. I shall see to it that some changes must be made, though I have probably cannot change some things such as the map lag; I thought I have removed this, but I guess switching to a newer laptop was quite discriminating of me. I will really have to decrease player size as well as decrease spawn size.

Okay this is my first released map. I have no background even in making Tutorials, someone just advised me to make information about each structure's information. So I just have to give freedom and make the player experiment. I shall look into this.

Thanks for even playing the map and reviewed it; you're right though, nobody has the time to play this map because of reasons unknown to me.

Maybe, this is one of those, but there could be more or less.

Hopefully, I can edit the map ASAP, but I kinda am studying for my OJT. Little chance is that I may not even edit this; hopefully I do change it.

 

[Kino]

though I have probably cannot change some things such as the map lag;

Let me put it simply.
Your map is unplayable because of the pathing. If you do not fix it, it will continue to be unplayable.
Your map doesn't simply "lag", it doesn't work.

I have no background even in making Tutorials, someone just advised me to make information about each structure's information.

Tooltips and forcing the player to build structures in a set order to complete a tutorial is different thing. Your map doesn't have any features that need specific explanations, everything from building to the main objective is very straightforward.

To be honest, all you need is tooltips that explain what each building does.

Thanks for even playing the map and reviewed it; you're right though, nobody has the time to play this map because of reasons unknown to me

People have time to play the map.
- They don't have the patience to put up with your heavy-handed yet pointless tutorial.
- They don't have patience to put up with maps that only work over LAN for no explicable reason.
- They don't have the patience to sit through 1hour 20mins of mediocre builder-defence especially when combined with the above.
- They don't have the patience to play a slow and buggy map. None is going to sit through your map even of the last 5 min is great.

There you go, some reasons.

Even if the pathing worked fine, this map is just one of many builder-defence maps that have been made over the years. Its not exceptional in how creatve or polished it is.
Its also incredibly slow and has a tech tree too shallow for a something that lasts 1hour 20mins.

 

[blancfaye7]

Okay back from office OJT work. I can post in more detail now and I'll give a rollback on few past posts.
I want to make it clear of what do you really mean by pathing? You cannot build? Units go around pointlessly? I don't get quite what you're trying to say. Is this about the trees? Or Units walking along walls?

You have created what is arguably the worst tutorial in the history of anything.
It combines all the worst elements of game tutorials (unnecessary hand holding, loss of control) and uses them in the same tutorial?

Do you honestly believe that in the year 2015, people need a tutorial on how to use the standard build interface?
Also why is the "real game" only playable via LAN?

Tooltips and forcing the player to build structures in a set order to complete a tutorial is different thing. Your map doesn't have any features that need specific explanations, everything from building to the main objective is very straightforward.

As I said, the tutorial is not about how the player plays Warcraft III, but just a quick briefing of what structures are vital. How can that make the player look stupid? You are right about Tooltips, but it's still nice to give the player an ahead overview.
If that made you feel this way, I'm sorry, but this has just been suggested by other players. I do not only post my Map Development on Hive.
If Tutorial is not the proper term for giving the player an overview, then enlighten me

The real game is only available through LAN because it is to avoid cheats. Though personally, I dislike this. Maybe I will try removing this, since experimentation builds and extensive testing are as important. I like your notion of giving the player freedom, but I think they should just do that on Easy/Normal/Hard Modes.
Of course, I need to remove the Single Limit crap.

But that doesn't matter, because the game can be beaten without building a thing.

Trust me, you won't win the game without building something. Unless cheated, then its impossible. You gotta reach the near-end game. You need to actually play it. Okay okay, my map sucks for you, for you to avoid playing it, but then again, without playing the map extensively, one cannot say fully about it. Sorry but you got to stick around more on the "sucky" game for an effective comment at mid to end game. Though I am still glad that many things have been spotted at early stages.

Your attitude isn't helping anyone here. Giving criticisms is one thing, bashing someone's work is another. Using words like "worst", "X ability is pointless", "your game is broken", "not worth playing", etc can only beat down the enthusiasm of a mapmaker. Why don't you help him instead of bashing him? Use terms like "I'd advice you to do that", "you can improve X, Y", "that thing isn't working properly" and so on. I am sure you know the drill, but you still go full offensive mode on the dude for no apperant reason.

He is quite helping, in his own way. I can accept it, but then again some people can't help being discouraged still... But I hope that won't break me.

People have time to play the map.
- They don't have patience to put up with maps that only work over LAN for no explicable reason.
- They don't have the patience to sit through 1hour 20mins of mediocre builder-defence especially when combined with the above.
- They don't have the patience to play a slow and buggy map. None is going to sit through your map even of the last 5 min is great.

I see. Maybe not the Hivers (I can say; not a lot of comments have been made in the Hive's Map Dev thread.), but a lot of other people in other communities enjoy it, even being mediocre, heck, the concept is overused indeed, but still people would love to see new games with the same overly used concepts, because we all have different insights about these.

I would like to iterate again about the bug. Clearly explain to me the Pathing System, since I may have a different dictionary of Pathing with yours.

Blink is pointless since a fifteen second cast time will never be a good idea.

I think I remember I said to fix this. Thanks for pointing it out.

Balance wise, the game is broken.

At balance, this game is not broken. Well except for late game because I have not gathered much data about it even on other communities. Early to mid game is already good if you know how to use your economy right, or how fast you can efficiently build your base. It is highly recommended that the game is played in 2 players, but I did not remove the option of making the game playable on single player. (I still need to remove that Single Player Crap. Haha!)

Okay summarizing... I really really need to know about that pathing system you mentioned. I really don't get it. I have not experienced anything at all regarding pathing with all the tests done (in my dictionary of pathing, that is.)

 

[Kino]

I want to make it clear of what do you really mean by pathing? You cannot build? Units go around pointlessly? I don't get quite what you're trying to say. Is this about the trees? Or Units walking along walls?

Its about how after 3 mins, your enemies stop attacking and just idle around.
Which allows you to beat the game without building anything, since they simply stop attacking after 3 mins.

As long as you kite the bosses, nothing can kill you.
Yes I didn't play to the very end, because frankly putting a unit on patrol for 30 mins and nothing happening got old quite fast.

Trust me, you won't win the game without building something. Unless cheated, then its impossible.

Challenge accepted.

 

[blancfaye7]

!

Its about how after 3 mins, your enemies stop attacking and just idle around.
Which allows you to beat the game without building anything, since they simply stop attacking after 3 mins.

As long as you kite the bosses, nothing can kill you.
Yes I didn't play to the very end, because frankly putting a unit on patrol for 30 mins and nothing happening got old quite fast.

Ah dang! I totally forgot to put that spawn cap limit! Many thanks for pointing that out. Of course the map will lag, as it spawns endlessly without limit.

Kiting bosses is one tactic that I have accepted. I do need a smarter AI for this though.
Is this something that I still need to cover up? I did assume that nobody would ever try to play with all players kiting, right?

Even so, the end-game is not simply all about surviving, you have to kill something...

EDIT: Though I think I will add a Sanity System if it's really required to cover up that patrol thing.

EDIT 2: I hope I get to edit this ASAP. Need to sleep already. I still have OJT work.

 

[Mech_Warrior]

Kino, not sure what you're talking about tbh. I played this game with a few friends online, and the creeps definitely kept attacking us all the way through (we got about 20 mins into the game). Also, I get the thing about the tutorial being a little pointless, I think it would be best to just remove it. It isn't necessary.

 

[blancfaye7]

Kino, not sure what you're talking about tbh. I played this game with a few friends online, and the creeps definitely kept attacking us all the way through (we got about 20 mins into the game). Also, I get the thing about the tutorial being a little pointless, I think it would be best to just remove it. It isn't necessary.

Alright. I shall see to it to talk to others about it too.
Thanks for playing the game and for this comment!

EDIT: Also, the creeps kinda stop attacking because he made the enemies stack without killing anything from the start of the game. I forgot to put the limitter trigger of this. The enemies stacked so much that the enemy AI doesn't know which to command; thus stop.

 

[blancfaye7]

I am going to update the map this Saturday (on my time) with the desired changes.

EDIT: Ugh. I can't promise that I can do this changes today. I may need to do it tomorrow I think. Life is just getting busier and busier.

 

[blancfaye7]

The map is updated to version v2.1
(Requesting title change to Insanity Attack only in order to avoid confusion.)

I have applied the changes made as listed within the changelogs.

 

[Flux]

Nice description
Looks like the map has a lot of update. I will try to play this and comment what I think about it.

 

[blancfaye7]

The map in-game says v2.0, but it's actually v2.1. I thought i changed that... ANyway, please forgive me. I'll change that on next major update.

I also forgot to remove SinglePlayer checker. Forgive me once again. I have so many things to think about

 

[Flux]

Here are my comments with few suggestions on your map.
- The map certainly has enough information at the start. I see that you disabled the map to be playable in Single Player
to avoid using cheats like greedisgood or whosyourdaddy.
- The time for the host player to choose the difficulty is kinda long.
- The Building's Tooltips provide enough information (but some has some weird description like Bazaar Weaponry)
- The Destroy Building Icon looks like a passive ability. You should replace this with an active ability button (it will take less than 5 minutes to do that).
- The Multiboard seems kinda useless (suggestion: put the Player's Resources in the multiboard)
- After losing three times, I still cannot upgrade to Advanced Hall because I can't see the 'Gate'.
- The Quest Board is done well providing really useful information.
- The map has a lot of chat commands which results to a wide variety of game results making it not repetitive.

 

[blancfaye7]

Here are my comments with few suggestions on your map.
- The map certainly has enough information at the start. I see that you disabled the map to be playable in Single Player
to avoid using cheats like greedisgood or whosyourdaddy.
- The time for the host player to choose the difficulty is kinda long.
- The Building's Tooltips provide enough information (but some has some weird description like Bazaar Weaponry)
- The Destroy Building Icon looks like a passive ability. You should replace this with an active ability button (it will take less than 5 minutes to do that).
- The Multiboard seems kinda useless (suggestion: put the Player's Resources in the multiboard)
- After losing three times, I still cannot upgrade to Advanced Hall because I can't see the 'Gate'.
- The Quest Board is done well providing really useful information.
- The map has a lot of chat commands which results to a wide variety of game results making it not repetitive.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
I think I need to reduce the time then to initialize the map.

The Gate Upgrade is actually on the Wall. You need to complete one wall to see the upgrade.

I also found a good destroy active icon.

I'll still remove the single player mode for single player tests at least. I need late game feedbacks anyway.

The Multiboard is only there for alliance change purposes to determine which player to go declare war on.

I shall take note of this and update the map ASAP.

EDIT: I have instead divided the initialization to make sure everything is initialized. The time that the host can choose the mode will remain the same sadly . But then I displayed messages this time. Quest Logs are now available before the actual start of game.

 

[blancfaye7]

Map has been updated to v2.2 with changes applied.
Have fun. If you have any comments, just post here in the thread or PM me in Hive (ofc)
I shall probably get back next week.

EDIT: Reuploaded the map for a minor bug fix.

 

[Flux]

I got another suggestion, can you put in the wall tooltip something like "Upgraded to: Gate". And if u are feeling energetic, do it to all buildings.

 

[blancfaye7]

I got another suggestion, can you put in the wall tooltip something like "Upgraded to: Gate". And if u are feeling energetic, do it to all buildings.

Actually, this is an amazing idea. I'm going to do it. What if the upgrade has tier 3 and the building is in tier 1?

 

[Flux]

Actually, this is an amazing idea. I'm going to do it. What if the upgrade has tier 3 and the building is in tier 1?

It's entirely up to you but if you need idea, u can do something like this:
Upgraded to: Tier 2
Further upgraded to: Tier 3, Tier 4, Tier 6.

 

[blancfaye7]

It's entirely up to you but if you need idea, u can do something like this:
Upgraded to: Tier 2
Further upgraded to: Tier 3, Tier 4, Tier 6.

Alright. I shall update it on Weekend.

 

[Flux]

Alright. I shall update it on Weekend.

Nice. That way players won't have a hard time upgrading since the Tech Requirements are easy to find.

 

[blancfaye7]

Map is updated to v2.3. Changelogs are updated. No major change though, but optimized the map a bit.

Post here or contact me if there are any bugs/glitches/suggestions that can be found/given.

 

[AvianSurkov]

something like deja vu here i played this map before building walls and towers but the enemies is zombies.

 

[blancfaye7]

If you read the credits, it's highly inspired by that.

 

[Orcnet]

Map Approved.

 

[blancfaye7]

I will update the map when I have the time.

I shall adjust the enemies by then as I did receive many comments about this, as well as the building speed.

I shall see to it that I'll find time.

 

[morgos14]

Need more balance, man. We can't even survive for 15 mins at easy difficulty :c (played at least 5 times)

 

[blancfaye7]

Need more balance, man. We can't even survive for 15 mins at easy difficulty :c (played at least 5 times)

Alright. As I listed on my notes, I will balance it.

If you could help me, where do you guys flop like most of the time?
So it would help me at least. Thanks! I've been very busy lately, but I have not forgotten about this map.

Many thanks for playing the map!

 

[morgos14]

Alright. As I listed on my notes, I will balance it.

If you could help me, where do you guys flop like most of the time?
So it would help me at least. Thanks! I've been very busy lately, but I have not forgotten about this map.

Many thanks for playing the map!

First of all remove all spiders at the start of the game. Me and my friends really hate them.

Also you need to increase the speed of resource gathering from lumbermills/mines and increase the speed of building walls & towers.

Blink with casting time? That sucks. Please remove the casting time.

The spawn time of the first wave must be kinda later. We need more time to build our bases.

And maybe you can make a simple wave system map?
For example:
- First wave, 20*(number of players) 1st lvl insane-mans.
When they all die there will be next wave. I mean you not to start the next level creeps before previous wave creeps still alive.

Sry for my English, hope u understand me ^^

One more bug:
- Multishot not saves when you upgrading the tower.

 

[blancfaye7]

First of all remove all spiders at the start of the game. Me and my friends really hate them.

Also you need to increase the speed of resource gathering from lumbermills/mines and increase the speed of building walls & towers.

Blink with casting time? That sucks. Please remove the casting time.

The spawn time of the first wave must be kinda later. We need more time to build our bases.

And maybe you can make a simple wave system map?
For example:
- First wave, 20*(number of players) 1st lvl insane-mans.
When they all die there will be next wave. I mean you not to start the next level creeps before previous wave creeps still alive.

Sry for my English, hope u understand me ^^

One more bug:
- Multishot not saves when you upgrading the tower.

There are some suggestions that I must decline here, but there are also that I like.

1) Pests are there to be really hated. They exist to disrupt you. It is also so that people will collaborate with one another, of who will become the tower builder, and so forth... Tactics will also be made by players to nimble through the spiders.
Verdict: I will not remove spiders. Pests are a part of this game.

2) Blink with casting time. Yeah. Kinda suckish now that I hear it from another user. I will consider removing the casting time, but maybe decreasing some of its stats.
Verdict: I will remove casting time of Blink. I am still deciding what to decrease. Maybe the range? Maybe increase cooldown? I still don't know, but I need to be careful because it does affect greatly in the PvP world.

3) The Set Time for the first wave to start is also vital to the game. I want the players to "think of something" of how to be successful on their first defense. I want the beginning stage to become tactical already; maximizing skills/resources, abusing some things, etc. Time is gold, and you "kinda need" to manage your gold/lumber always. Read the tips to get some tactics working. Once your builder becomes idle, time for work is lost. Need to always be active. It takes practice. I don't want the game to become easy and boring.
Verdict: I will not change the time for the first wave to arrive.

4) I will consider increasing lumber and gold production, but only to Advanced Lumber Mill and Gold Mine, since the upgrade ratio is kinda small, making it insignificant. The Ratio for the regular Mills are 10 Lumber per 10 seconds. (1:1). The upgraded versions have 15 Lumber per 14 seconds. Kinda minimal isn't it?
Verdict: I will change Lumber and Gold Production. I will increase only the production of the upgraded versions of the Mine and Mill (both 2nd and 3rd tiers).

5) I will not create a wave system. This will completely destroy the game I want it to be; to bombard the players with more enemies as the time passes. Since more enemies pop out, and enemies upgrade, the players must not be left behind in technology, or else they're doomed.
Verdict: I will not do this.

6) Multishot Upgrade is not retainable. Once you upgrade to a better tower, multishot won't be with it. You need to install it with Multishot again. It is to also make the players decide: Is this tower enough? SHould I buy the Multishot, or just wait for the better tower? But what if my defense are weak on this side? Do I need to upgrade now? As I said, the player must maximize his time as well as resources. It's their decision if they will install the multishot for the current tower or not.

I thought it was an imbalance because of a mob being super OP. But if there is, though, then I will consider it. I will also decrease difficulty on easy mode.

it would be nice if siege units has level hp and damage, while pierce or normal units have big base damage and considerably some high hit points or so, that way my base would not explode in less than seconds whenever I establish a base.

@Orcnet, can you clarify on what this means? I may understood it wrongly. Thanks

Thank so much for taking your time to list your suggestions! I appreciate it!

 

[blancfaye7]

I feel like there is a need to post this separately:

The map is now updated at v2.4! Check the Changelogs of what was changed.

 

[morgos14]

So, about PvP world, maybe you can create a three different modes in this map?
1 - PvP + PvE
2 - Only PvP
3 - Only PvE

And the vision in this map is terrible. If you press "A" or set your group of units to patrol, they will attack only near-passing enemy units(0-150range).
Can u fix this?

P.S. And about hard difficulties: do you even survived for all the time at least at one of them?
It will be very interesting for me to see how you or anybody else playing this map on harder difficulties and successfully survived, of course.

 

[blancfaye7]

So, about PvP world, maybe you can create a three different modes in this map?
1 - PvP + PvE
2 - Only PvP
3 - Only PvE

And the vision in this map is terrible. If you press "A" or set your group of units to patrol, they will attack only near-passing enemy units(0-150range).
Can u fix this?

P.S. And about hard difficulties: do you even survived for all the time at least at one of them?
It will be very interesting for me to see how you or anybody else playing this map on harder difficulties and successfully survived, of course.

Your idea of dividing it into three worlds (or modes) is most interesting. I'm sure that I'll add that up.

Melee units are intended to do this. Most players (outside hive) found it annoying that their melee units kept on auto attacking to the point their melee units have already spread across the map. They are completely fine with this. I'll make sure to ask others though for consideration, but it's highly possible that they want it this way.

I have not heard from any players, but on Hard mode the others have most likely enjoyed it (they are 8 players all in all that are playing, I don't know from other communities that I have contact with.)

In personal experience, I have finished in Easy mode solo after so many tries, but never on Normal (it was supposedly intended for 3+ players anyway.)

This is why I created Very Easy because I don't want the other players to be disappointed when the mode they are currently playing on statically is changed.

 

[Mammamia]

Well, after spending 6+ hours in VERY EASY mode I figured it out and then beaten the HARD mod solo with no problem what so ever. 2.5k G&L is plenty to jump to the third tier, pump a hand full of marines and finish the game. 24 is more then enough to guard the whole base with couple of priests and sorcs. Three repair stations with three multi-shot towers keep the whole mining base safe for ages, thus after 45-th minute the game is nothing but resource swapping and waiting.

Final boss is destroyed by 24 marines with stun guns with no chance to even shoot once.
General mobs can't even get close to them.

So what can I say:

Flaws:
- Mobs wandering around pointlessly, most of the time ignoring hostile units around them if not attacked. Can be fixed with attack point comand.
- Worker units should get attack priority if there is no wall between them and InSaNeEEEs.
- Units should attack the wall that boss is attacking, otherwise they are a mere pest.
- Pests are stupid. if you build five wall foundations they will bite them 'till the end, while single tower powerbuilt.
- Melee units should have a wider acquisition range like 400-500, for example, because they never react to foes coming by under their nose (knight chieftain especially), ... unless attacked but mobs are passing by on the move command.
- Melee units have no "help range", thus they stand aside when (if) your units are attacked.
- Marines far superior to other units. Nerf now.

Positive moments:
+ Fun map with good soundtrack
+ Had some fun finding tricks and exploits
+ Surprise wave blowing the whole base in mere minute :rage: :rage: :rage:
+ 6+ hours of solving the puzzle ^_^

Conclusion: Still a road ahead, but I like what I'm seeing. Keep it up.

P.S. All above valid for singleplayer.

 

[blancfaye7]

Thanks for playing the map out! This is definitely a different point of view, and it adds up improvement. I must say that you also reminded me to change the orders to Attack Point command. Thanks so much about that.

About one thing...
How do I put priority on builder units if they are outside walls? I can't seem to find ways to do this.

I will look into the things like acquisition range. The "help" range is quite odd since they should help other attacked melee units...

I will not change the pests anymore. I kinda like how they are sometimes stupid. (Programmed to be stupid, that is.)

Anyways, thanks for the ideas and for playing the map!

 

[Mammamia]

Units come help if they themselves not engaged in combat, unless the attacked ally is a hero.

I have some ideas, with lots of "if"s, for checking integrity of the wall-off, but they need testing. If they work, then AI would be able to make sence of "Inside" and "Outside" of the camp. Then if workers are out and in range of 400-500 of psycho - target them.
*Easier version of this is to make them non-worker class unit, but then players will have no "Idle workers" icons, thus having problems managing the base.

* Potentially bulls should attack unfinished walls, because they claim to be intelligent , but I need to finish the game with no bonus start resourses before making any judgment.

* Insane lags on Kioshi and Falandre boss stage. (decrease the damage instances from 1 per 1 millisecond to something reasonable like 10 a second, I assume. Doubt that visuals cause that, but who knows)
* Lags on the final boss
* after killing the final womb you should continuously apply the effect to the worker, because selling the main base reverts worker to normal with no effects on.
* One can infinitely cast reveal by destroying the hall after casting it and then rebuilding it again.
* Opened gate do not count as gate at all (nothing serious, but still can't upgrade to tier 2 hall)
* If unit stands on the gate when it closes gate itself moves, and it is a pain to move it back where it was.
With propper placement of units or buildings I can move the gate 800 units away))
* Feather ankle is debuff artifact that takes away 50ms, since each equiped artifact slows unit by 100ms or so. (Change buff to +150 to be valid)
Also speed debuff in conjunction with target acquirelessness makes almost all melee units useless, IMO. -55 a piece seems reasonable enough.
* Mecha critters would be useless if mobs will be sent via attack order, but you can make them invis birds to fix it.
* Buggy and tank's acquisition range should be the same as their attack range, because this makes them completely inferior to the infantry with instant projectile speed.
As for melee units try setting it to 150 and we will see how it goes. (you may have implemented it in such way because the were running away. DotA, ora warcraft engine in general, has an interesting mechanic for neutral camps: units guard their place within 600 to 800 units and If agroed, they chase for 6 seconds, then return. If attaked in their guard zone - they will reinitiate on attacker. implementing this with tweaked lower values has a potential)
* In normal mode mobs scale with time, while in Hard they don't, but nasty-ish events occure more frequent. Is it intended to be like this?
* Insane is far easier then every other mod. You finish in no time.
* Units picked in at the Tunnel entrance pop out at the exit doorway even if the last one isn't fully built. The other way around also works.

** - Tooltips and gameplay
** Assistant powerbuild tooltip should be "Under" instead of "Over" 80%
** Golems, towers and machines can't acquire items THEMSELVES. Specify in the tooltip that workers should install them, because it is counterintuitive. Usually unit's can't acquire items they can't use.

P.S. I've beaten it solo with no initial resources on very easy and it seems that marines are vital for defense, but for what they are doing you should increase their food to 2.
* Before writing that message check is "Greedisgood" adds or takes away resources

P.S. I've beeten the Hard difficulty solo with no starting resources. That Chen with reverted madness buff thou
I'd like to see mobs scale just a little. Rapid bobmders with Normal diff scaling would be totally BRUTAL.
And so the day has came to past...


16.05
* Power plant's tooltip states that in can repair multiple mechanical UNITS, but in reality it AoE regenerates HP to buildings, while repairs only ONE.
* Lit scout beacon consumes 10 gold and lumber per 3 secons instead of listed 1.
* Military artifacts replenish time needs reworking.
>-(rt- replenish time)
>- + - Faster
>- - - Slower
Corrupt orb - fine.
Lifesteal - extremely situational, but useful. -25% rt
Crits - Joke item for the cost. (+4%dps for 450g!?)
Stun - good-ish item for late game marines. Almost no other unit can benefit from it (6-12 units with this can be effective against boss, but no guarantees)
+5 def costs like a unit, but gives almost nothing. Faster replenish and lower cost if it was intended for melee units)
+15 dmg is fine, but needs faster repl. x3 or x4
+15 AS is fine, but needs faster repl. x3 or x4
Bottle? somewhat ineffective, because units can't swap items.
Boots? IDK. Never felt the need for them.

Machinery items need to be tested. only three things I found of use:
blink on the taunt golem
+15 dmg on buggies
+1k hp for buggies.
Troll's cloack. installed into buggies and towers could surround bosses for further beatdown))
mid-lategame 25 dmg/sec immolation?
Suicide? - Time and money down the drain. +units scaling is far superior.
3 sec invul with 120 sec cd? What for? spell dodging?
3 hp regen... powerplant + 1k hp + some micro is far superior. 6-7 with 650 cost sounds more attractive.



** Add (Y) hotkey to Destroy. Unlikely to be clicked randomly.
** Sorcs appear without activated slow autocast
** Bank spell X should be 1000 instead of 100

17.06
** Map description in loading screen: "Survive the insaniest onslaught" would sound better.
*** - Suggetions
*** Rework the Chen battle.
1. Give her -30% ms & as "Goddess descend" aura with 2600 radius for firs 25 seconds. Ascend of the goddess shouldn't be unnoticed.
2. Split her buff in two separate abilities: I. "Holy shock" +200% dmg, 25 armor II. "Second wind" +25% DMG, 500 ARMOR.
When she engages in combat - use firs one. She should wreck faces, but player must have a feeling that she is beatable. When her HP drops to 40% - she uses second one and spreads havoc in the military lines.
3. That evasion should also scale corresponding to HP lost.
100% HP - 60 eva
70 - 80
40 - 90
20 - 95

Righ now it feels like she has 99% evasion.

 

[Mammamia]

Wellp... Normal diff solo is somewhat unbeatable at the moment. I keep getting swarmed by dogs&grunts, with acolytes bashing on the walls 16 minutes into the game for now. But there is still a chance. I believe.

 

[blancfaye7]

Thank you for all these wonderful reviews and suggestions. It is clear what I am supposed to do now. The next version will be a huge update to fix!

There are some things that I do not understand, but I'll come to you in PM to ask.
Thanks again!

EDIT: A few comments about the reports you've made.

1. The Hard mode had a bug with scaling the units. I'm trying to fix it right now.
2. Koishi and Flandre: They had immolation repetition of 5 and 3 seconds interval. It still causes lag so then I increased the interval, but increased damage as well so the rate will remain unchanged.
3. Fixed the Burrow System.
4. Bulls are supposedly for anti-military unit combat, so I won't change their behavior towards structures.
5. I don't understand what's wrong with the other bugs you mentioned. Feather Anklet? That is absolutely not a DEBUFF equipment. I tested it and it doesn't decrease movement speed, and it isn't stackable. Are you telling me something else here, though?
6. I don't get how it lags on final boss. Please describe further. Does it lag because of the tentacle spawn? Or does it lag when the boss spawns, etc?
7. Worker movement speed on Final Stage (until boss is defeated) will now retain the decrease effect even when downgraded or upgraded.
8. I also don't understand how the open gate is not detected as a Gate. I tested it myself and I can access 2nd tier with Closed and Opened gates (tested with both vertical and horizontal single-handedly. No bugs detected.)
9. If a unit stands on the gate, then the gate will be moved. Is there a way to temporarily remove the Close ability when a unit is on the gate though?
10. Mecha critters will truly be useless, but I will still implement attack-point commandments. I will find a work around on these critters.
11. Buggy and Tank have by default already an equal acquisition and range.
12. Insane mode is just like that for the lols.
13. Assistant Power Build tooltip is correct. It will STILL set the construction progress to 80%, regardless of the current progress.
14. I still need help in some things that I have not mentioned in this list yet.

---Updated this post---

 

[Mammamia]

4. Thank god!

5. Build advanced barracks, Research 3-rd backpack (it works as intended).
Research Military Expedite III. (Units stacked with 3 artifacts before this upgrade will remain speedy, but every artifact for new units will further decrease their movement speed).
* II upgr is where speed is differed slightly
III - stacked are at formidable disadvantage
V - stacked barely move. (Buggy's speed is halved if equipped)

It seems like your speed upgrade is based of a goblin's airship. The more it is staked - the slower it flies )

6. Maybe too much marines firing at ultra high speed)

7. ^_^

8. It happened when final boss annihilated my base and I tried to rebuilt. It works fine. Nothing serious)

9. I'm thinking about moving units with offset.
Create a Vert and Hor regions. When gate closes move corresponding region to position of gate, casted the ability, then pick every unit in the region and teleport them 100 units away.
OR
pick every unit in the Gate region, remove them, close the gate and then place them back. They will appear somwhere nearby. (this has some abuse potential like building lots of gates in a key area and then once mobs entered spam open/close)

11. Buggy starts to shoot at 250 distance. Well, not actually, but sometimes it lags and takes a first shot at this distance or closer)

12. ^_^

13. Yellow tooltip declares that it will finish only if current progress is OVER 80%. In the white one everything is fine.

Former statements:
* Potentially bulls should attack unfinished walls, because they claim to be intelligent , but I need to finish the game with no bonus start resourses before making any judgment.
I regret that statement. If one wall would be assaulted by multiple acolytes with the boss on Normal, it would have almost no chance of standing. (2 builders +3 assistants +2 repair stations could suffice. Just maybe.) Bulls on normal are just brutal. That splash AoE...

- Melee units should have a wider acquisition range like 400-500, for example, because they never react to foes coming by under their nose (knight chieftain especially), ... unless attacked but mobs are passing by on the move command.
140 should be good enough. Without it "Attack move command" doesn't work.

- Melee units have no "help range", thus they stand aside when (if) your units are attacked.
They do. It's just mobs do not attack them. (is it a good thing on normal?)

- Marines far superior to other units. Nerf now.
They are pretty good on lower difficulties in groups, but on Normal it's hard to get a formadable force because of investments into defences, foregoing economy for some time.


P.S. For convenience purpouses most of the new bug related stuffwill be added to Post #40.

 

[blancfaye7]

Okay I updated some things in the map.

I have fixed most of the basic things. About the movement speed decrease...
it's a Warcraft III limitation. I just based the Anklet on Boots of Speed...
I was imagining that the upgrade increases the movement speed, to the cap limit. Acquiring the movement increase from the item doesn't change anything, but since the engine doesn't let movement speed stacking, acquiring the item will reduce the movement speed. The limit was checked first, then the decrease happens.
I solved this by reducing the movement speed increase of the upgrade along with attack rate (it is useless if they cap the movement anyway at upgrade III, so there.) I'll just a tooltip that it doesn't stack, and stacking it would cause problems.

The installation inctructions of the mechanical equipments are on the tooltip of the machinery repository building. Maybe I should add that to the Blueprints as well.

About the Power Plant tooltip... I just want to create something that scene that it actually repairs the units around it automatically with new technology, while it can still repair manually damaged mechanical structures and units in range (the auto-cast).

How am I also going to issue attack point? Attack-Ground or Attack-Move To?

Okay tested the Attack-Move To... For some odd reason it doesn't work and they behave exactly the same as the current system... What does Attack-Move To work exactly?

For Power Build Assistant: "This skill reduces construction progress if the current progress is over 80%." I don't see anything wrong...

 

[blancfaye7]

Sorry for the double post, but I feel like there is a need to post another, since putting this on previous post is confusing. I myself am rather confused already even with all the notes here now.

Here is the changelog:
- Seventh Official Release of the Map.
- v3.x series will be the final versions.
- Fixed Hard Mode Enemy Scaling over time System.
- Increased immolation interval of Koishi and Flandre to reduce lag, but the rate of damage per second reimains unchanged.
- Units cannot no longer transport to another unfinished burrow.
- Increased Final Boss's Tentacle Spawn cooldown.
- Worker movement speed on Final Stage (until boss is defeated) will now retain the decrease effect even when downgraded or upgraded.
- Melee Military Units' acquisition range slightly increased.
- Marines are nerfed in terms of damage, attack rate, HP and food cost.
- Added tooltips on Blueprints for Mechanical-only items to work correctly.

I am missing here:
Critter Improvement IF EVER ATTACK-POINT attitude of enemies are correctly implemented, which seems to be not going well. (See previous post.)
Obviously, The Attack-Point Behavior System. See previous post for the details.
Movement Speed Bug with Equipments and Military Expedite Upgrade. I clearly need specific details here.
What else am I missing?

 

[blancfaye7]

I may remove Items in this game... if the movement speed bug persists.

If I am to remove them, I have to replace it with another feature. What feature would it be? ...

 

[Mammamia]

Current record on Normal is 45:00. Killed 5 turtles, but bombers destroyed the base. They have an absurd amount of HP and damage for one man standing, + spirit link with heals overwhelm if mobs gather in a substantial force.

> What feature would it be?
Well, movement speed slow bug is good enough feature to keep the artifacts in the game . It's just a matter of way you present it to people. The more burden the unit has - the slower it moves. Now it's a feature ))). Why does infantry move slower after purchasing boots of speed? Well, because they carry them ))

If you want a superman - he will be slow, otherwise one or two artifacts per unit is more then enough.

> Okay tested the Attack-Move To... For some odd reason it doesn't work and they behave exactly the same as the current system... What does Attack-Move To work exactly?
It was an assumption. Need to se how it is currently implemented in your map.

> - Marines are nerfed in terms of damage, attack rate, HP and food cost.
Any specifics?
> Reduced attack speed upgrade scaling
Any specifics?

 

[blancfaye7]

Current record on Normal is 45:00. Killed 5 turtles, but bombers destroyed the base. They have an absurd amount of HP and damage for one man standing, + spirit link with heals overwhelm if mobs gather in a substantial force.

> What feature would it be?
Well, movement speed slow bug is good enough feature to keep the artifacts in the game . It's just a matter of way you present it to people. The more burden the unit has - the slower it moves. Now it's a feature ))). Why does infantry move slower after purchasing boots of speed? Well, because they carry them ))

If you want a superman - he will be slow, otherwise one or two artifacts per unit is more then enough.

> Okay tested the Attack-Move To... For some odd reason it doesn't work and they behave exactly the same as the current system... What does Attack-Move To work exactly?
It was an assumption. Need to se how it is currently implemented in your map.

> - Marines are nerfed in terms of damage, attack rate, HP and food cost.
Any specifics?
> Reduced attack speed upgrade scaling
Any specifics?

Here is an updated Changelog:
- Seventh Official Release of the Map.
- v3.x series will be the final versions.
- Fixed Hard Mode Enemy Scaling over time System.
- Increased immolation interval of Koishi and Flandre to reduce lag, but the rate of damage per second reimains unchanged.
- Units cannot no longer transport to another unfinished burrow.
- Increased Final Boss's Tentacle Spawn cooldown.
- Worker movement speed on Final Stage (until boss is defeated) will now retain the decrease effect even when downgraded or upgraded.
- Melee Military Units' acquisition range slightly increased.
- Marines are nerfed in terms of damage, attack rate, HP and food cost.
- Added tooltips on Blueprints for Mechanical-only items to work correctly.
- Decreased Military Expedite's upgrade to 15% Attack Rate and 7% Movement Speed per research.

Marines have an increased cost of food to 3. They also have 400 HP now, and a DPS of 32.

EDIT: If the movement speed decrease only wasn't random, then it's good. Moreover, it changes the base amount of MS that they have, resulting to a different kind of MS decrease to the whole army, which is disturbing.

 

[Mammamia]

> EDIT: If the movement speed decrease only wasn't random, then it's good. Moreover, it changes the base amount of MS that they have, resulting to a different kind of MS decrease to the whole army, which is disturbing.

But that is the fun part))

> Marines have an increased cost of food to 3. They also have 400 HP now, and a DPS of 32.

With with such insatiable appetite game will be beatable only in multiplayer, because they are the main damage dealers. I would suggest 2, but need to see how will it play out in a real game to make any conclusions.

> Upgrade thing
+15 as and 7% ms seems reasonable.