Icon Contest/Submission Rules

[Naze]

This discussion started in the current Icon Contest, so I'm moving it here.
What do you think of these? You're free to suggest alternatives, disagree with the changes, etc.

1st topic

Old rule:
"You must show at least 2 unfinished previews (WIP) for each of your submissions, before the deadline, as proof that they're yours. Minimum canvas size is 256 x 256 pixels."

Issue:
People who make pixel art do not have 256x256 pictures to show. On the other hand, allowing 64x64 pictures makes it easier to trace icons.

Proposed change:
"You must show at least 2 unfinished previews (WIP) for each of your submissions, before the deadline, as proof that they're yours.

Drawing on canvas size smaller than 256x256 pixels: the .psd file may be required as the verification of authorship."​

This way we make the contest more accessible to people who paint directly on the 64x64 size + we address the authorship problem (yes people can still cheat on that verification but well).​

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2nd topic

Old rule:
"Only freehand work is accepted. CnPs, in-game screenshot edits, excessive filter-work, trace-overs or heavy referencing existing artwork are not permitted."

Issue:
Photobashing and similar techniques are industry standards nowadays and accepted in other dedicated art communities online. On the other hand, we're valuing the artists who put time and effort into making the 100% freehand work.

Proposed Change:
"Your work must be mostly freehand. CnPs, trace-overs or heavy referencing existing artwork are not permitted. Use of textures and filter work is permited."
This way outright CnP and tracing still aren't allowed, but we're a bit less restrictive when it comes to the process of creating the icon.​

 

[deepstrasz]

OK, I guess?

@Maxwell @The Panda @PrinceYaser @Murlocologist @~Nightmare @San

 

[PrinceYaser]

Hm.. I don't know why the tag did not work for me.

"You must show at least 2 unfinished previews (WIP) for each of your submissions, before the deadline, as proof that they're yours.
Drawing on canvas size smaller than 256x256 pixels: the .psd file is required as the verification of authorship."

I don't really know any other proof solution except showing the WIP images. Work in progress pictures make things much more clear since the user cannot only cut a part of an existing image and show 2 pics as WIP images. But still, that cannot solve the issue of tracing..

2nd topic

Current rule:
"Only freehand work is accepted. CnPs, in-game screenshot edits, excessive filter-work, trace-overs or heavy referencing existing artwork are not permitted."

Issue:
Photobashing and similar techniques are industry standards nowadays and accepted in other dedicated art communities online. On the other hand, we're valuing the artists who put time and effort into making the 100% freehand work.

Proposed Change:
"Your work must be mostly freehand. CnPs, trace-overs or heavy referencing existing artwork are not permitted. Use of textures and filter work is permited."
This way outright CnP and tracing still aren't allowed, but we're a bit less restrictive when it comes to the process of creating the icon.

Well, if the case is editing some already existing pictures, I think this should not be allowed in the contests. I see no prob seeing them in the icon section along with some proper changes, but the contest feels a tad bit weird having some edited icons already being made by another artist (Which the original image would be also a freehand artwork). And about the filters, I see no filter being useful for an artwork, I have tried many filters and none of them had been much useful for artworks, they ruin the images as hell.

 

[morbent]

Tracing is actually a common technique too... in a sense. Like, people take a human and draw on top of that, using it as a base. That's usually for concept art (although I've seen it with Illustrations as well, so photobashing is crawling it's way even there).

Also, what does heavy referencing mean precisely? Stealing design? Using tons of ref? Clarify it please.

Regarding rewarding freehand work.. well, it's already rewarded. It looks better. That means it will get a higher score right?
And hey, if someone prefers the photobash images to the hand painted ones and that happens to be the judge... so what? What if something took less time? Doesn't mean it can't be of more value. A pro artist can paint something masterfully for 2 hours while a beginner would still be doing his lineart... Does that mean we should penalize skill as we do with technique right now? It matters to us not how someone reaches his art or how long it took him or what it cost him. What matters is the result. That's why I'm even for tracing and all sorts of tricks, if it means better icons for Hive, or art in general. But anyway I don't care much regarding Photobashing or tracing as I myself don't use these.

Regarding the 256x256, I think it's obvious - just let people draw on whatever canvas, if they provide WIPs we can still know whether it was theirs or not, it's kinda obvious. Yea, it's hard to know if it was traced... but as I said - w/e.
Cuz seriously, if you trace something as generic as a human body... so what? No one would recognize it, it saves you time and you don't have to have the skill to be able to actually draw a body as well (that's the bad part, but for the artist himself - he will never be able to pose his characters as he likes until he gets good enough, or he'll have to spend countless hours searching for just the pose he wants OR he will lose art points and creativity in his art by using something he didn't actually envision his art as and being forced to work with his photo or w/e. That's the price he/she pays - shittier art, less design n creative freedom. And if he can draw bodies and decided to trace a photo anyway? Well, he chose to sacrifice art in order to save time. I don't see a problem with it. And people recognize traced photos and such, and if you can hide it well enough to make it not recognizeable, AWESOME, you just managed to save time and not have a shittier art. (Unless you sacrificed something like a pose which expresses character and such but I'm going too deep here..) Now with icons it's kinda easy to hide tracing, so that makes it an even better technique (although also not really since icons require heavy stylization.. finding something stylized to trace? Yea, fat chance))

Now, regarding tracing a specific design, meaning stealing 1:1. Well, if it's such a good design and people know it, it will probably be recognized and you'll be caught. If it's a more obscure design from some pinterest or artstation arts and you stole it ONE to ONE well then that's a problem... but what can you do? You can do that anyway by just painting something by hand, you can do that in a 256x256 canvas even. You just gotta recolor it. If you don't have the skills to even recolor it (which are usually the people who would steal) then I assume people would eventually realize you don't have the skills to paint something that awesome n such. Anyway.

Regarding heavy referencing, as I understand it, I'd say allow it. If heavy referencing means copying, technically stealing, designs from other arts, well guess what people do that anyway. Unconsciously. That's what pros do, but well. They have the reference in their mind, not on their canvas. And they can draw awesome designs cuz they've been stealing designs for years, reshaping them, changing slowly, building from them. So if you're a beginner, you get 3 artworks, take 3 motives / ideas / flat out copy parts of them and mash them into one. Well that's like your first steps to understanding design... We must encourage that. No one is just creative, people build creativity with time - looking at art, copying art (what traditional artists do by painting nature and such), tracing art, etc.

Now, the line between stealing and designing is blurry of course, some artists even use the word steal as a positive, half jokingly, half for real.. So I dunno. It's tough to say where to draw the line, I say, don't draw it. Lets rely on people being decent enough.. and also, we can always check what other resources people have done to see their skill level, and if it's someone's first art and it's AMAZING than ask for a few more WIPs or whatever.
I'm personally against real stealing, like taking an art and placing it in the frame but I have rarely seen that. Also it's very easy to recognize, even with a 64x64, usually stolen art doesn't look well in an icon, as people who steal don't know jackshit about art and can't realize this and would just put an image in the icon border.

Sorry I don't have time to edit and summarize this wall of text, I might have repeated myself a few times.

tl;dr remove almost all rules, just provide WIPs, ask new members with no arts and too good of a first entry to provide more wips / prove their skills somehow

 

[KILLCIDE]

Following to keep up with discussion. I wouldnt be able to provide any worthy input.

 

[Naze]

Also, what does heavy referencing mean precisely? Stealing design? Using tons of ref? Clarify it please.

Tracing is actually a common technique too... in a sense. Like, people take a human and draw on top of that, using it as a base. That's usually for concept art (although I've seen it with Illustrations as well, so photobashing is crawling it's way even there).

Now, regarding tracing a specific design, meaning stealing 1:1. Well, if it's such a good design and people know it, it will probably be recognized and you'll be caught. If it's a more obscure design from some pinterest or artstation arts and you stole it ONE to ONE well then that's a problem... but what can you do? You can do that anyway by just painting something by hand, you can do that in a 256x256 canvas even. You just gotta recolor it. If you don't have the skills to even recolor it (which are usually the people who would steal) then I assume people would eventually realize you don't have the skills to paint something that awesome n such. Anyway.

Heavy referencing: trying to replicate someone else's icon in all aspects without giving credits, I think. You're right, in concept art we do a lot of referencing and such, and it also provides the learning path to become an artist. Actually this site has nothing against doing it in concept art, or using an anatomical reference to draw your icon. But as we noticed, we have more strict rules when it comes to the icon-making (not concept art-making), probably because it's harder to detect people stealing art when making icons - and this happens often.

We had to deal with several occasions in the past on which users took good-looking icons from our database or from other websites, drew a little bit on top of them, and then uploaded it as if it was 100% their own work (without mention to the original author). You mentioned that "if it's such a good design and people know it, it'll probably be recognized and you'll be caught", actually it wasn't as easy as it seems: it was quite painful to see the icon mods playing detective with the icon submissions and I'm sure we have let some art theft slip through in all these years of Hiveworkshop.

I'm not here to defend the maintenance of the current rules btw! My previous lines here were just trying to explain why the rules are like this nowadays, but changes are welcome yes. Making drastic changes as you suggested in your tl;dr is more improbable though hehe.

But hey I'm not even an icon mod or reviewer. I can personally think that heavy referencing could be fine if the person mentions the original author, but what do I know. I'd love to hear input from @The Panda @Maxwell @Scias @Mr.Goblin and others related to our art-icon section. Also, feel free to tag whoever might be interested in taking part in this discussion. If I tagged too many people in a single post XenForo will cancel the notifications.

 

[morbent]

Ah, I understand. I also rethought this line of mine you pointed out - it's not really easy to notice theft, I should have clarified design theft like The Lich King's sword or helmet, etc. (Which is also not very easy to find if we're talking about design by some random artist in ArtStation). But anyway, I was unaware people had been stealing a lot in here, since it isn't an art site after all, I see no point in cheaters coming in here. It's for fun after all... But anyway, isn't it easy to find a thief by looking at his art history? Like, you just check someone's Resources and if the icon is at a similar level, then it's probably not stolen. As I said, with people who have just made their first icon it's trickier, but then you just ask for more WIPs and proof (like, other artworks done by this person, etc.). I doubt there would be many completely new artists coming in with amazing artwork. Usually people start... bad. And why would a cheater steal a bad/not-so-good art? Perhaps that could happen, but he/she probably won't win with it, and I thought that was the whole point of cheating. And if someone eventually finds out, that person is screwed. Really not worth it to cheat with an art that is not the best in the contest.

And as I said, I'm okay with the rules not changing, as I myself don't use these techniques... and honestly, even with a 256x256 icon you can use most of those techniques and still make it unnoticeable. Of course, that would require some art skill and cheaters would usually have none/not enough (at least I suppose so?). So, another point to make is that this rule doesn't really help, with the minimum canvas size of 256x256, except for the obviously CnP artists (the types you mentioned who just flat out steal an art, tweak it a bit and call it done). I suspect that would be noticeable even with the 64x64 version.. if someone was to know it was stolen to begin with. Because if no one knows, you can basically upload the 256x256, tweak it 2-3 times and pretend it's WIPs. If it's just a CnP with tweaks, what does the size matter (well ok, on second thought, it does matter for icons where the creator never uploaded a larger version, but you can technically upscale an icon and make it look as if it was made in 256x256 (although, that would require, as I said, some skill)).

But after considering and typing out all this, I realize that this rule does somewhat help, since most thieves are noobs.

Really fucks the honest community which works in 128x128 and 64x64 though. But what can you do... to all of them, I suggest - work in your normal formats, then upscale and tweak it to make it unnoticeable. If you've got the skills it should be easy enough (in Photoshop (dunno bout GIMP n others), use Bicubic Smoother, copy the whole image, then undo and upscale again with Nearest Neighbor and paste the Bicubic version on top (put it at like 50% opacity). You'll get some sharpness but not too much. Then fix the edges by hand. Unfortunately, you'll have to do that for all your WIPs as well, so it might be too much work. But if you can't work in anything but 64x64, there's no other alternative with such rules I'm afraid. For the 128x128 artists, it should be way easier to do.)

 

[Scias]

I'm not sure how necessary any rule changes are, people who work on 64x64 (more precisely 56x56 since the borders) seem to be really rare. Especially pixel artists, to me it seems like I'm the only one.. Which is why I've always given mods a easy time to figure out how much effort exactly I put into making a icon, since I do "trace" models that the icons I make are meant for in most cases, so I provided progress gifs of majority of my icons.. The "tracing" I do is just to save time, I could easily pull off same/similar outcomes without it (not all of my icons are traced) but this is a resource website and not artistic website so I don't think these kind of shortcuts should matter. If .psd file was required, how would I be able to provide that as I work in Paint not in Photoshop, and other artists could be working in other programs also..

Heavy referencing I think should be fine as long as the references are shown, so mods can decide if it's really too heavily referenced (or even just edited/stolen), you should work with the mods to help make their time judging your work easier. Example from my work on how I submited a icon that I used references for instead of my usual method of using model screenshots. I think Murlocologist's approach in judging if artists are real or thieves was fine, he would just ask new ones for more progress files and evidence they made the artwork - which majority of the real artists should already be expecting to have to provide..

Sure some thieves will slip their art through without notice, but you can't just relly on few people and make some extremely strict rules to make sure this doesn't happen, you should probably also relly on community reporting the icons. Though, even the people using the resources will sometimes overlook it being stolen just because it makes the right resource for them..

Just advise people if they're new to the website and want to contribute to provide evidence of their work, don't make it 100% required on first upload (since not everyone will read guidelines), but if their first icon is questionable let them know that they must provide progress files for next one, and keep the first one awaitng approval until they create a new icon with the required WIP files.

 

[Naze]

Really fucks the honest community which works in 128x128 and 64x64 though. But what can you do... to all of them, I suggest - work in your normal formats, then upscale and tweak it to make it unnoticeable. If you've got the skills it should be easy enough (in Photoshop (dunno bout GIMP n others), use Bicubic Smoother, copy the whole image, then undo and upscale again with Nearest Neighbor and paste the Bicubic version on top (put it at like 50% opacity). You'll get some sharpness but not too much. Then fix the edges by hand. Unfortunately, you'll have to do that for all your WIPs as well, so it might be too much work. But if you can't work in anything but 64x64, there's no other alternative with such rules I'm afraid. For the 128x128 artists, it should be way easier to do.)

Ah yes. Well we're trying to ease their life by making them not having to go all the way into faking a larger image =P

Especially pixel artists, to me it seems like I'm the only one.. Which is why I've always given mods a easy time to figure out how much effort exactly I put into making a icon, since I do "trace" models that the icons I make are meant for in most cases, so I provided progress gifs of majority of my icons.. The "tracing" I do is just to save time, I could easily pull off same/similar outcomes without it (not all of my icons are traced) but this is a resource website and not artistic website so I don't think these kind of shortcuts should matter. If .psd file was required, how would I be able to provide that as I work in Paint not in Photoshop, and other artists could be working in other programs also..

Regarding your tracing: true, that's why it's a non-issue for you. I think the original rule is just targeting people who use tracing to steal content, and that's not your case.
Regarding the fact you use Paint: I didn't think of that! In your case specifically you already provide enough info for anyone to see that you did in fact draw your icon. Good thing mods/reviewers are humans and are likely to recognize if it's necessary or not to ask for the .psd file. I won't make it a mandatory rule then, now it's written that it "may be asked" as additional proof if necessary.

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Thanks for everyone who participated in this, Morbent, PrinceYaser and Scias. It's been a week, so today I talked to Nightmare and the current Icon Contest #17 - Legendary Equipment Set is now using these rules, so will future contests.

 

[Kyrbi0]

It's cool to see some consensus reached. : )

One little caveat I might submit, however, is that the benefits to a mandatory rule (especially for something like 'verification') is that no one has a chance to feel singled out; "as-is" Rules are great, but they introduce a serious potential for abuse (i.e. users can be targeted maliciously, singled out, etc).