Hunter's Hall 1.6.0

This bundle is marked as approved. It works and satisfies the submission rules.


Hunter's Hall

A map by Cokemonkey11

Contents
* Introduction
* Screenshots
* Items
* Version Control
* Changelog
* Contributing

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Introduction

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Hunter's Hall is a team-oriented PvP game which consists of short, objective-based rounds.
Players fill a role either on the team of Hunters, or the team of Beasts. These teams use
different play-styles and have different objectives - the Hunters have a limited time to
steal one of two items and return to their base.

Hunters have ranged weapons and binocular vision, but are genetically weaker than the
Beasts. Hunters can only view the area around and in front of them, and can't easily keep
track of one another. Hunters have long-ranged weapons with high firepower, a net ability,
and a melee execute ability. Hunters should remain together to survive Beast harassment.
Runes spawn in two separate places, marked A and B on the minimap.

Beasts are good at guerilla warfare. They can regenerate health, move around quickly, and
have a large sight radius in all directions. They can also track other Beasts movements,
and therefore deaths as well. Beasts must utilize their greater utility and regeneration
to harass the Hunters, killing them slowly and avoiding being overwhelmed by their direct
firepower.

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Screenshots

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Items

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o0rtJ4t.png
Hunter Itemization: The Hunter team starts the game with a lot of resource: they
have 1000 gold to spend, and can save it for future rounds. Killing
beasts grants a small bounty, so having good economic sense is invaluable.

If a hunter dies, its items will be dropped. If a hunter survives, they keep their items
for the next round. Note that hunters also have only 4 item slots - and an empty item slot
is needed for carrying a shard.
NqnO3QT.png
Contract: (80 Gold)

Grants 50 bonus gold when killing enemy Beasts.

Lesser Beast Bonus: 25
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Field Conditioning Kit: (100 Gold)

Regenerates 1 health per second while out of combat.
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Gas-action Rifle: (150 Gold)

Provides a fully-automatic firing mode.

Fire Rate: 4 rounds per second
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Studded Leather Armor: (200 Gold)

Reduces damage from basic attacks by 10.

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Version Control

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All iterations of this map are maintained in a public git repository at
Cokemonkey11 / hunters-hall / Commits — Bitbucket

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Changelog

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1.6.0 23 June 2019 :
  • The map is now fully written in Wurst!
  • The map now uses the Wurst Standard Library 2.
  • Reworked damage detection to use DamageEvent, for 1.31 compat.
  • The cinematic can now be skipped with fewer votes (2/3).
1.5.1 6 September 2015 :
  • Hunter Net ability has been reworked to provide less binary gameplay.
  • Hunters Hall now supports up to 6v6!
  • Fixed a bug where hunter's rifle ability could be unfairly used to target enemies with
    higher accuracy - this was mostly abused by AI.
  • Fixed a bug where the burst rifle's channeling animation would not be interrupted.
1.5.0 3 May 2015 :
  • There are now four items which hunters can purchase at the marketplace! This has the
    implication that Hunters no longer have a toggle-weapon-mode ability - instead, fully-
    automatic mode is acquired by purchasing an item.
  • Burst attack mode now has a 1-second cooldown.
  • The map triggers have been fully converted to Jurst! This has the implication that
    changes to source are more accountable, and pull requests can be considered.
  • End-of-round conditions now have unique visual effects and sound-bites.
  • Adjusted mdl data for the fountain at beast spawn zone.
  • Added some cute music.
1.4.2 24 April 2015 :
  • Fixed a critical bug related to hunter attack multiplicity.
1.4.1 23 April 2015 :
  • Hunter now has a short-cooldown sprint ability.
  • Hunter Projectile Damage 25 -> 30.
  • Hunter Knife Damage 30 -> 35.
  • Hunter Knife Execute Damage 50 -> 60.
  • Hunter Knife Cooldown 15s -> 10s (50% cooldown reduction on execute still applies).
  • Adjusted terrain near the north entrance to Shard B, opening a third offensive path.
  • Adjusted terrain at beast spawn zone (mostly cosmetic).
  • Fixed a bug related to the damage value written in Hunter attack tooltips.
  • Fixed a bug related to terrain pathing in the north of the town.
1.4.0 21 April 2015:
  • There are now two rune spawn points, neither of which are directly in the Beast spawn
    area. Any one rune can be returned to secure victory.
  • Hunters and Beasts are now hero-units, which is only cosmetic.

1.3.0 15 April 2015:
  • Beast's Thunder ability has been replaced with an attack-modifier, which should be
    more rewarding to use effectively, and provide more options for beast attacking patterns.
  • Beast attack has been adjusted to be slower, but harder hitting, while also removing
    some of the unpredictability issues related to its damage over time component by removing
    its ability to stack, and significantly front-loading the damage back into the base.
  • Slain hunters can now observe their allies locations across the map using vision
    hints.
  • Hunter knife ability now has a larger enumeration range.
  • Fixed a bug related to rune of imperialization location.
  • Fixed a bug related to victory messages.

1.2.0 25 March 2015:
  • AI now properly takes over player slots when a human leaves the game.
  • Hunter AI now elects leaders and attempts to secure the objective.
  • Beast AI now retreats when low on health or lightning. They also try to use their
    thunder ability when it's off cooldown.
  • Before the cinematic begins, a voting dialog will determine the number of rounds.

1.1.3 23 Mar 2015:
  • Hunter Net ability no longer applies net effect to corpses.
  • Organic Hemisection and Organic Concatenation cast time no longer allows players to
    move selection circles.
  • Organic Hemisection and Organic Concatenation no longer leave behind corpses.

1.1.2 23 March 2015:
  • Fixed a major desynchronization related to the cinematic fade filters and fog masks.

1.1.0 18 March 2015:
  • Terrain adjustments and improvements.
  • Fix fogmodifier leak.
  • Add small vision bubbles to nearby hunters for allied vision.
  • Add two new cinematics, one for each faction, including lore and tutorials.
  • Cinematic can now be interrupted by popular vote.
  • Game is now, by default, a best-of-7.

1.0.1 2 March 2015:
  • Beast Thunder ability can no longer leak a lightning.
  • Map author name is now spelled correctly (credits to StoPCampinGn00b).
  • AI now replaces players who leave the game [untested].
  • Beasts now maintain their sight radius while casting organic hemisection and organic
    concatenation.
  • Fixed a bug where the game would not end if a dialog was open in multiplayer
    [untested].
  • How-to-play quests now have list-style markers.
  • Round time reduced to 4.5 minutes.
  • Hunter range increased to 1200.

1.0.0 12 February 2015:
  • Basic AI Implemented.
  • Terrain Revamp.
  • Quest Menu with Credits Added.
  • Knife ability reworked into skillshot.
  • Edited skin for Hunter's Hall to match Human Base.
  • New map preview.
  • Hunter's Automatic Camera now uses smoothing.
  • Cinematic now plays only once.
  • Cinematic can now be skipped if all human players press escape.
  • Hunter Attack is now a regular ability and must be targeted.
  • Hunter Weapon Toggle is now an ability.
  • Multiboard Revamp.
  • Alternate round-victory conditions added.
  • Time of Day now static at midnight.
  • Beast Lightning Resource Introduced.
  • Added lightning powered blink ability for Beast.
  • Hunters and Beasts now have Hero Glow.
  • Beast can now use Hemisection and Concatenation (split into two beasts or revert).
  • Hunter weapon behaviors improved.
  • Best-of-Five Win Condition Implemented.

0.0.8 3 May 2010:
  • Initial Version Uploaded to hiveworkshop.com.

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Contributing

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I will merge atomic, well-formed pull-requests if they are consistent with my design
policies and issue tracker.

Contents

Hunter's Hall 1.6.0 (Map)

Reviews
22:48, 3rd Apr 2015 StoPCampinGn00b: Hunter's Hall is the definition of a simple map that follows the map submission rules. Players who enjoy a minimalist yet strategic team on team gameplay might just enjoy this. Map approved.

Moderator

M

Moderator

22:48, 3rd Apr 2015
StoPCampinGn00b: Hunter's Hall is the definition of a simple map that follows the map submission rules. Players who enjoy a minimalist yet strategic team on team gameplay might just enjoy this.

Map approved.
 
Level 4
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
80
Lacky's Review
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Hunter's Hall 1.0.0
Cokemonkey11

Gameplay

Terrain

Suggestion

Verdict

Gameplay

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Gameplay.jpg
I played it, as the Hunters, with the AIs. The main objective of this map is to kill the Hunters or Beasts, and earn team points. If your team points is 5, then your team wins. When I was playing, I don't how to play the map, then my Hunter Allies (AI) just disappear, while I was still knowing how to play the map. Then, I look in the map quest, and click on the tab "How to Play". After reading, I know now learn how to play the map. But, a question form in my head, and that question was: Where did my Hunter Allies (AI) go? Then I keep seaching my Hunter Allies (AI), after that, I saw a 2 hunter corpses and 1 beast corpse, and then, another question form in my head: Is that my 2 Hunter Allies (AI)? Then, I knew that I don't have any hunter allies (AI) for now. After that, I still keep searching the 2 Beast (The other one beast is already dead), until I found the other two beast. I mange to kill the other beast, and didn't kill the other beast, at least, I manage to haft the life of the other beast.

Round 2. I followed my Hunter Allies (AI), until I and my Hunter Allies (AI) immediately found the 3 beast. Then, we hunters lost. It seems the AI knows where the other AI and players going.

Round 1 was kinda long, because I was still don't know to play the map. Round 2 was kinda short, because I know now to play the map and I followed my 2 hunter allies, and got killed by the 3 beast.

The map was kinda wierd and questionable (For me). But the map, has a wonderful customized AI, units and abilities. Anyways, good map, I have fun playing it.

Score: 8/15

Terrain

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BTNTerrain.jpg
The terrain needs a lot of work. I see a lot of plain spots, like our way to the beast. Add more doodads. The Hunter's Hall is good, but the outside of the Hunter's Hall, is bad. I only see trees, rocks, and so on. But I like the way you choose the tiles, it fits well to the map.

Score: 7/10

Suggestion

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BTNSuggestion.jpg
  • Improved the terrain.
  • Add some more doodad in the map, like the outside of the Hunter's Hall.
  • Add share vision to the team (That's why I was lost in the map, until I saw my Hunter Allies (AI) got killed by the beast).
  • Add dialog, for more rounds, or points, or time and so on.

Verdict

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Total Score

Explanation

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15/25
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21 - 25
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Rejection
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Cokemonkey11

Code Moderator
Level 26
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
3,370
Lacky, thank you so much for the review. I've tested this map a couple times now online, and I'm confident after hearing some similar opinions about what to do next. I've also added some notes to my issue tracker based on your opinions. I was also happy to see that although you tested alone, you had an overall positive experience.

I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind!

terrain is bad, add doodads

When you say add doodads, are you talking about just adding environment (non-functional) effects to bare areas to spruce things up, or do you mean I should fill some of the bare areas with functional changes - i.e. things that block your path and sight radius

Add share vision to the team (That's why I was lost in the map, until I saw my Hunter Allies (AI) got killed by the beast).

I haven't made any final decision on this, but I'm still looking for ways to provide interesting gameplay without giving shared team vision, in order to make the "human" experience a little more unique.

Currently, I plan to do the following:

  • provide vision in a small area around allied hunters who are within some radius (2000 to 3000)
  • change the cinematic in the beginning to be a tutorial, which explains the basics of the game, and also makes it apparent that vision is not shared

Eventually hunters will also have another method of ranged detection, perhaps via ability.

Do you think that's interesting? Or do you still feel that shared team vision is the only way to solve this?

Add dialog, for more rounds, or points, or time and so on.

I plan to do this, but with very low priority. Does that seem fair to you, or is this a feature you'd like ASAP?

Thanks again for your notes, and feel free to add any suggestions or bug reports here.

Regards,

---

Edit: I've updated the map to maintenance release 1.0.1, which primarily contains bug fixes and minor enhancements. Stay tuned for the next minor version which will include new features!
 
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Level 4
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
80
Lacky, thank you so much for the review. I've tested this map a couple times now online, and I'm confident after hearing some similar opinions about what to do next. I've also added some notes to my issue tracker based on your opinions. I was also happy to see that although you tested alone, you had an overall positive experience.
Yeah, I am alone to play.
When you say add doodads, are you talking about just adding environment (non-functional) effects to bare areas to spruce things up, or do you mean I should fill some of the bare areas with functional changes - i.e. things that block your path and sight radius
Yeah. Either this one:
are you talking about just adding environment (non-functional) effects to bare areas to spruce things up
Or this one:
do you mean I should fill some of the bare areas with functional changes - i.e. things that block your path and sight radius
But I like the things block your sight and path radius.
I haven't made any final decision on this, but I'm still looking for ways to provide interesting gameplay without giving shared team vision, in order to make the "human" experience a little more unique.

Currently, I plan to do the following:

  • provide vision in a small area around allied hunters who are within some radius (2000 to 3000)
  • change the cinematic in the beginning to be a tutorial, which explains the basics of the game, and also makes it apparent that vision is not shared

Eventually hunters will also have another method of ranged detection, perhaps via ability.

Do you think that's interesting? Or do you still feel that shared team vision is the only way to solve this?
I like all the idea, you said, but it's your choice. If you ask me, I prefer this one:
Eventually hunters will also have another method of ranged detection, perhaps via ability.
I plan to do this, but with very low priority. Does that seem fair to you, or is this a feature you'd like ASAP?
I don't want to rush you, take your time, but yes, that is the feature I like.
Thanks again for your notes, and feel free to add any suggestions or bug reports here.
I will.

By the way, use
to hide your changelog, it seems get bigger.
 
Level 32
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
3,959
The concept of the map is one many of us seen before. The thing is, this map isn't too unique from other round based PVP arenas.

The map is truly on a minimal scale in many aspects. There are few rounds, the map offers little variety, and the map bounds are small itself. I'll be more specific about how the map is on a minimal scale. Features such as options to choose the amount of rounds are non-existent. The problem with this is that matches end too quickly. I can foresee many getting annoyed at this if they wanted to play more and they would tediously keep starting new games. This could be especially annoying if players are playing online.

The gameplay offers little variety. Variety is not always good, but when a map offers the same scenario over and over, it gets repetitive. Yes, there are two factions both with a set of abilities, but that's all the change up you would get. Things like different sub maps to play on (like in mad balls arena or uther party), more heroes to choose from, customization, game control (such as options to enable / disable things), dynamic events or obstacles, would usually help more people to enjoy maps.

The AI was alright. Perhaps it would be very useful for testing, but it isn't really a competitive match against bots when the two teams collide in the same spot over and over. Also, I don't think the AI beasts are using Organic Hemisection.

What did surprise me, however, is how the map is balanced despite how the two factions have different abilities and playing style. Good job on this.

The terrain is fair. What I noticed is that you didn't do well executing nice looking natural themed areas. The tiles look forced and unnatural. It just seems like everything started off as dirt and you added abnormally large patches of vines and leaves. This can be improved by simply having more tile variation. It's usually an easy thing to do, make the tiles less monotone and have a mixture. This doesn't mean to paint the ground in random strokes like a toddler, this means to have the tiles correspond to the environment.

Decoration wise, it was also sub par. There simply is a general lack of decorations, but the ones you placed on the map such as human structures, and obelisks around the beasts spawn looked spiffy.

To sum it up, the map visually is acceptable, but could improve greatly. The gameplay is on the border of it being acceptable. It is good that you had hotkeys, informative descriptions, a not too generic combat style, and balance, but the negatives slightly outweigh the positives.

Map set to needs fix. It's your choice if you want to work on this or work on a new map :thumbs_up:
 

Cokemonkey11

Code Moderator
Level 26
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
3,370
StoPCampinGn00b, thanks very much for the review. I'll address your concerns individually if that's alright:

The map is truly on a minimal scale in many aspects. There are few rounds, the map offers little variety, and the map bounds are small itself. I'll be more specific about how the map is on a minimal scale. Features such as options to choose the amount of rounds are non-existent. The problem with this is that matches end too quickly. I can foresee many getting annoyed at this if they wanted to play more and they would tediously keep starting new games. This could be especially annoying if players are playing online.

I am a minimalist myself, and prefer games that offer a good user experience and good game design over boundless features and entities - these are mistakes that create an illusion of choice, and mask competitive design.

The current match time is 4.5 minutes. With human players, matches should be about 3.5 minutes on average. with a best of five, this means a typical game requires 15-20 minutes of play time. If matches are not approaching 3.5 minutes on average, this is an issue of balance, as a fair match should not allow human players from winning much faster.

However, you are not the first person to be concerned by the lack of round adjustment. I've increased the priority for this issue in my issue tracker.

The gameplay offers little variety. Variety is not always good, but when a map offers the same scenario over and over, it gets repetitive. Yes, there are two factions both with a set of abilities, but that's all the change up you would get.

I have many plans for latter-round game flow adjustments, the specifics of which I've written below, if you're interested. However, these thing are of very low priority; the game is intended to be played exactly as the player understands in the first 2 minutes of learning. The important characteristics of this map are the competitive nature and natural learning curve.


  • A fire-wielder, scout, and support class will be added to the hunter faction. The specifics for changing class are yet to be decided. fire-wielders have a continuous attack behavior but limited ammunition. Fires also remain burning in an area over time. They also have bonus armor and their abilities specialize in resistance. Fire-wielder is intended to be a beginner-friendly class. Scouts have a boost to their vision range, but their weapon is less powerful. Supportive class can distribute pyro ammunition and bandage allies. The specifics for these things are all TBD.
  • Beasts will have the capability to evolve through a tech tree for each round they win. The specifics for these evolutions are TBD. The intention is to provide a snowball effect to the game so that winning teams have an edge in future rounds.
  • Neither existing class (hunter, beast) are finished in terms of abilities. Hunters need a method of early-warning detection, and beasts need a less reliable source of damage. the behavior of beast's basic attack is also subject to change.


Things like different sub maps to play on (like in mad balls arena or uther party), more heroes to choose from, customization, game control (such as options to enable / disable things), dynamic events or obstacles, would usually help more people to enjoy maps.

I have considered adding one additional map for vote, but this is the lowest of low priorities. Most likely the other map would be a smaller one for 2v2, and I would increase the player slots to allow 4v4 matches on the larger one. I have no intention whatsoever in having a map like mad balls arena or elimination tournament. Those games are one-dimensional and symmetric. Hunter's Hall is about exploiting a weakness of an opponent that behaves differently than yourself.

At this time, random events and map adjustments are also a strict no. Players need to be forced utilize the entire map by game design, not by randomized events.

The AI was alright. Perhaps it would be very useful for testing, but it isn't really a competitive match against bots when the two teams collide in the same spot over and over. Also, I don't think the AI beasts are using Organic Hemisection.

The AI isn't alright, it's the bare minimum. This is a PvP game with the foundation for an AI to be used in testing and learning. AI is scheduled to receive an update with medium-high priority. Beasts will probably never use organic hemisection (reasoning below)


Organic hemisection is a strategic ability for beast map control. Players should use hemisection to scout the map and identify threats/predict hunter movement. Hemisection should not be used for combat except by players very confident in their micro.


The terrain is fair. What I noticed is that you didn't do well executing nice looking natural themed areas. The tiles look forced and unnatural. It just seems like everything started off as dirt and you added abnormally large patches of vines and leaves. This can be improved by simply having more tile variation. It's usually an easy thing to do, make the tiles less monotone and have a mixture. This doesn't mean to paint the ground in random strokes like a toddler, this means to have the tiles correspond to the environment.

I see what you're saying, but I don't really agree with your reasoning. Tile selection has to match functional implementation - but tile selection doesn't come first, functional implementation does. I've always struggled with building terrain but I've done my best to improve upon this (see 7f0720b) these are medium-level functional tweaks that should aid in the overall map terrain. However, I have another high priority adjustment that needs to be ready before the next release. In the meantime feel free to test that new terrain and let me know if you think it improves on these weak areas. (Please do not test non-release map versions in battle net)

Decoration wise, it was also sub par. There simply is a general lack of decorations, but the ones you placed on the map such as human structures, and obelisks around the beasts spawn looked spiffy.

Similar to above, I really struggle with choosing doodads that aid to the visual quality without interrupting gameplay. I've added more rocks and things but I'm concerned I've already over-done it. I'll most likely wait for more feedback (in the next version) before adjusting again.

---

Thanks again for the review. Hope you're all looking forward to 1.1.0 ^^
 
Level 32
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
3,959
I admire your priority tracker. I haven't seen anyone else have one before.
Cokemonkey11 said:
The current match time is 4.5 minutes. With human players, matches should be about 3.5 minutes on average. with a best of five, this means a typical game requires 15-20 minutes of play time. If matches are not approaching 3.5 minutes on average, this is an issue of balance, as a fair match should not allow human players from winning much faster.
Perhaps I just wasn't a good player in the game. I almost always lost in less than two minutes no matter the faction I'm on. I did manage to win on both sides once after a plethora of rematches. I'm not sure what to make make of this.
Cokemonkey11 said:
I see what you're saying, but I don't really agree with your reasoning. Tile selection has to match functional implementation - but tile selection doesn't come first, functional implementation does. I've always struggled with building terrain but I've done my best to improve upon this (see 7f0720b) these are medium-level functional tweaks that should aid in the overall map terrain. However, I have another high priority adjustment that needs to be ready before the next release. In the meantime feel free to test that new terrain and let me know if you think it improves on these weak areas.
I'll probably retest it when you update the map again. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but since the terrain is fair, it's already acceptable in its current state. Making it look better visually, as you stated, wouldn't make too much of a difference for the rating.

Cokemonkey11 said:
(Please do not test non-release map versions in battle net)
You have my word :)
 

Cokemonkey11

Code Moderator
Level 26
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
3,370
For anyone watching this thread, I'm making great progress on the introductory "cinematorial" - I'm about half way done.

The tutorial will be skippable if all human players key the escape button, and features a separate story perspective for each faction.

If time allows, I will also include some QoL AI enhancements. I aim to release the next minor version this week before I leave town for the weekend.

Cheers

--

Edit: This map has been updated to version 1.1.0! This minor release features two new cinematics - over 1200 lines of vjass.

Unfortunately I haven't had time to look at the AI, but I think people will be pleased with the new map introductions.

Cheers,
 
Last edited:
Level 4
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
80
That was awesome! I'm really impress, and nothing much to say. I really love the way you made the terrain, when the camera shows the whole area, and others too. The camera are so very nice, it is well placed, and shows well.
 
Level 22
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
1,753
Did a quick skirmish, once on both teams.

Gameplay
- I remember playing a prototype of this years ago back in the mapping clan days. It does feel more polished, however I think what applied then still applies now.
That is hunters are significantly stronger as a group and beasts more so in a 1v1. Having one class favour sticking over another isnt a bad thing, however I find that the outcome is always vary binary; if the hunters stick = they always win. If they dont = beasts always win.

The moment one hunter dies, its quite safe to call it quits on the round.

- The playable field is also a little large; if you decide to go down another route you will never be able to aid your allies. This applies to both sides, it would be nice if there were some interconnecting paths between the main ones.

Aesthetic
- Some of the log doodads are excessively large
- The undead music theme would probably work well here, its tense and might fit quite well.

Otherwise I have no major issues. Id like to offer some food for thought, but that depends on what you feel this map should achieve.
 

Cokemonkey11

Code Moderator
Level 26
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
3,370
That was awesome! I'm really impress, and nothing much to say. I really love the way you made the terrain, when the camera shows the whole area, and others too. The camera are so very nice, it is well placed, and shows well.

Wow, thanks!

Did a quick skirmish, once on both teams.

Gameplay
- I remember playing a prototype of this years ago back in the mapping clan days. It does feel more polished, however I think what applied then still applies now.
That is hunters are significantly stronger as a group and beasts more so in a 1v1. Having one class favour sticking over another isnt a bad thing, however I find that the outcome is always vary binary; if the hunters stick = they always win. If they dont = beasts always win.

The AI is a bit relentless, but in my experience with human players, the beast team can always win. I think more time is needed to know anything for sure :)

- The playable field is also a little large; if you decide to go down another route you will never be able to aid your allies. This applies to both sides, it would be nice if there were some interconnecting paths between the main ones.

I will consider this. After updating the AI and testing with human players a bit more I think I'll have a better idea of how the functional landscape should be adjusted. Right now I think the terrain is actually more wide-open than it should be, but balance adjustments will have to reflect changes to the functional landscape.

Otherwise I have no major issues. Id like to offer some food for thought, but that depends on what you feel this map should achieve.

I have some pretty detailed plans for how the game will progress, and how it will be dynamic between rounds, but if you're excited to share your ideas I'm happy to hear them :)

---

Side note: I've just updated the map to v1.1.2 which fixes a major desync issue related to the cinematics. If you tried to test online with no success I would ask that you try once more.
 
Level 22
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
1,753
I have some pretty detailed plans for how the game will progress, and how it will be dynamic between rounds, but if you're excited to share your ideas I'm happy to hear them :)

Depends on what you want from the map/what direction do you want it to go.
I don't like the idea of someone selling a creator back their own vision, thus Id also like to not be that guy.

For example, do you want rounds to be slower?
If so, side objectives could be interesting as well as more maze like paths, allowing people to track and hunt more as opposed to simply engaging straight up.
It works more thematically as well.

If you want immediate clashes and players to "dance around" until defeat, then none of the above makes sense.

EDIT: A side note but is there a reason why beast's dont simply have a mana bar to display lightning charges?
 

Cokemonkey11

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For example, do you want rounds to be slower?

In a balanced matchup, every round should be quite long - because if any team is winning before the timer is reaching low values, then that team is not optimizing time as a resource. Hunters should require time to capture the objective safely, and beasts should require time to kill hunters.

If so, side objectives could be interesting

Side objectives aren't something I considered before, but I did think about a way of making a second rune (i.e. there is more than one victory item for hunters). Maybe a side objective would be more interesting - I'll think more on this.

as well as more maze like paths, allowing people to track and hunt more as opposed to simply engaging straight up.
It works more thematically as well.

I'm not really interested in circuitous pathing, but indeed fight engagement should not be straight up, as that would produce very unfair fights. Ideally the hero properties and characteristics should drive this part of the gameplay.

EDIT: A side note but is there a reason why beast's dont simply have a mana bar to display lightning charges?

In PvP games, information is a key component in producing meaningful risk assessment. In warcraft 3, knowing that a blademaster has low mana is a key property in choosing to engage or attempt to surround him. In counterstrike, knowing how much health an enemy has is the difference between changing weapons and/or aiming for his head.

Adding or removing information is not only a major balance component, but a major design one as well.

In this particular case, I have a few motivations for using lightning:

  • I'm not particularly confident that beasts will never have mana as well (part of my plans for producing dynamic gameplay between rounds)
  • I think lightning balls provide clarity for your own resource
  • By removing information, I reduce risk assessment complexity, thereby providing more room for meaningful risk assessment and depth. In other words, since hunters cant click you to learn how much resource you have, hunters can spend their APM on something else - potentially more than myself, the game designer, could afford, if the beasts used mana.

And lastly, I just think lightning looks cool and I wanted to push the unique gameplay feeling that makes beasts different than hunters.

Thanks again for your comments.

---

Side Note: I've updated to v1.1.3 - this maintenance release fixes a few very minor bugs.
 
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Side objectives aren't something I considered before, but I did think about a way of making a second rune (i.e. there is more than one victory item for hunters). Maybe a side objective would be more interesting - I'll think more on this.

The reason why I mentioned side objectives was due a line in the cinematic "the beasts developed a symbiotic bond with the land" or something along those lines.
I didn't explicitly mean alternate win conditions, but more soft-objectives that helped you progress to your main goal.

For example; a beast could eat some sort of neutral critter, possibly healing or gaining a temporary power (hence the reference to the line above). Naturally, hunters could also shoot these critters to deny the beasts a power-up.
 

Cokemonkey11

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The reason why I mentioned side objectives was due a line in the cinematic "the beasts developed a symbiotic bond with the land" or something along those lines.

Hmm I didn't consider that either - I'll have to keep that in mind if I make a second objective.

I didn't explicitly mean alternate win conditions, but more soft-objectives that helped you progress to your main goal.

For example; a beast could eat some sort of neutral critter, possibly healing or gaining a temporary power (hence the reference to the line above). Naturally, hunters could also shoot these critters to deny the beasts a power-up.

Sounds like a powerup - I hate powerups :p kind of my pet-peeve.

---

This map has been updated to v1.2.0 - this minor release makes significant changes to AI behavior of both teams. A pre-game voting scheme now also selects the number of rounds. These changes are very much community inspired, so I hope they're what you're looking for!
 
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Not like I enjoy minimalist maps (it looks like the map is very boring with only 3 spells), but i wanted to try it but it's not on makemehost so it's impossible to play it in multiplayer.


EDIT : ok I tested it in solo and after 1 round of each class I got bored. Also the hotkeys are not convenient to some languages keyboard (but I bet you can't do shit about it).
 
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Cokemonkey11

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Not like I enjoy minimalist maps (it looks like the map is very boring with only 3 spells), but i wanted to try it but it's not on makemehost so it's impossible to play it in multiplayer.

Well the map itself is not minimalist, there are many exciting plans to expand the gameplay, but I do understand what you're saying. The current version has the minimal abilities to experience the game how its meant to be played.

EDIT : ok I tested it in solo and after 1 round of each class I got bored.

I'm sorry you got bored. I'm aware that the game is quite lacking in variation from round to round. Sadly, this specific aspect is not very high priority for change (yet).

Thanks for testing by the way.

----

Edit: Also, I added the newest version to makemehost. It was also on Clan ENT bot already, FYI.
 
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Each round is the same in my opinion.
There is only one way to play.
If you're a beast you teleport and use your spell and run away in hope of surviving. If you're almost dead you split in two.

If you're a hunter, you wait for the beast to teleport and you net it. Then you spam your attacks and you die (lol you can survive if you're better ofc) but your mates kill the beasts xD
That's how I saw the game.

Otherwise it's polished.


EDIT : Ok i played on clan ent bot (can't host it from bnet but from clan ent site yes) and it was much funnier than in solo but we won 9-0 as beasts. Once I only attacked a hunter ONCE with the thunder spell and he died in 3 sec. Also i saw one hunter survive 30 sec with the damage over time and he finally died, it's so frustrating and unfair.
Can't you make another hotkey (or a swap hotkey ability) ? It's blink and the knife ability which aren't working on my keyboard.
And the tutorial is too long and the story is pointless so we shouldn't be forced to watch it at start of each game.
BTW I still think there are very few ways to play the game.

EDIT 2 : (6)huntershall make it hard to be found on makemehost list ;)
 
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Cokemonkey11

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Each round is the same in my opinion.

Yes, I have plans to make the game more dynamic between rounds, and I've solidified those plans more clearly as well as raised their priority - hopefully some exciting changes are around the corner.

There is only one way to play.
If you're a beast you teleport and use your spell and run away in hope of surviving. If you're almost dead you split in two.

Well, I don't claim that this pattern is the most efficient, but if you went 9-0 as a beast then good job. This is also inconsistent with the reports of others, so perhaps I need some more data before I can adjust balance significantly.

Once I only attacked a hunter ONCE with the thunder spell and he died in 3 sec. Also i saw one hunter survive 30 sec with the damage over time and he finally died, it's so frustrating and unfair.

I agree that the damage-over-time aspect of the beasts can sometimes be a bit frustrating, so I've adjusted these things in the latest version, and replaced the thunder ability entirely.

Can't you make another hotkey (or a swap hotkey ability) ? It's blink and the knife ability which aren't working on my keyboard.

No, I can't, but there's are tools that can simulate other hotkeys for wc3. Best of luck.


And the tutorial is too long and the story is pointless so we shouldn't be forced to watch it at start of each game.

If all players press the [Esc] key, the cinematic is skipped.

EDIT 2 : (6)huntershall make it hard to be found on makemehost list ;)

This is the familiar filename style used by blizzard - Other map makers should do the same!

---

This map has been updated to minor version 1.3.0. This version fixes a few minor bugs and attempts to address some of the gameplay issues experienced by players.

Most prominently, the beast thunder ability has been entirely replaced, thus removing the last random gameplay component in the map. Along with the adjustment of beast attack damage and attack speed, this should provide more interesting optimization choices for beast players, and a more rewarding experience. I've also severely cut down on damage-over-time values, which should be less frustrating for hunter players.

Minimap hints have also been adjusted so that dead hunters can track their allies, rather than looking at a black screen for such a long time.

This new version has been uploaded to makemehost and clan ent bots. I hope you all get a chance to look and let me know how I'm doing.

Regards,
 
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About the map name, or the cinematic or other things I mentionned, it's only to help you reach a broader audience because I think the map can become very good, something like Ninja Vs Samurai (a map I played a lot). Every little downside of the map can make some players avoid it. So think a minute about what I said and see if it's better or not. I didn't say this to be mean .
The cinematic is never skipped because there are always new players. I spent 15-20 min already watching this cinematic. The cinematic doesn't show up the opposite teams skills neither. But if you add it, the cinematic will be longer. IMO cinematic = bad idea in every map
About map names do as you want, if you prefer players to never find your map.

I'll try the map if you changed the thunder thing but I forgot to mention last time, as beast I won every game 9-0 (in multi). As hunter, the best I could manage was 40% win, 60% defeat (with one AI and 2 hunters).
Maybe because of my hotkeys problem though but I can't change them since I already changed them for another map.

You should add another active ability for both team to avoid damage maybe. And some way to upgrade one ability (so each player is a little more unique)
 
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Cokemonkey11

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About the map name, or the cinematic or other things I mentionned, it's only to help you reach a broader audience because I think the map can become very good, something like Ninja Vs Samurai (a map I played a lot). Every little downside of the map can make some players avoid it. So think a minute about what I said and see if it's better or not. I didn't say this to be mean .
The cinematic is never skipped because there are always new players. I spent 15-20 min already watching this cinematic. The cinematic doesn't show up the opposite teams skills neither. But if you add it, the cinematic will be longer. IMO cinematic = bad idea in every map
About map names do as you want, if you prefer players to never find your map.

I'm not too interested in catering to the lowest common denominator, I just want to build a good map that features logical game design and replayability (which is still a work in progress!)

I'll try the map if you changed the thunder thing but I forgot to mention last time, as beast I won every game 9-0 (in multi). As hunter, the best I could manage was 40% win, 60% defeat (with one AI and 2 hunters).
Maybe because of my hotkeys problem though but I can't change them since I already changed them for another map.

I will be quite surprised if the map is still in favor of Beasts after this most recent update. Most likely I will need to make some changes to improve their utility in the next version.

You should add another active ability for both team to avoid damage maybe. And some way to upgrade one ability (so each player is a little more unique)

Since you asked, here are some plans that address your thoughts:

* Hunters will be given a sprint ability which can be used during kiting to help them maneuver
* Hunters will have access to a shop whose items can be kept from round to round only if they survive. Money will not reset at the end of the round, but securing objectives and killing beasts will earn a little. I want to introduce a game of economics into the human faction.
* Beasts will have the ability to evolve after each *victory*. I hope this will make the map a tiny bit more snowball-like so that early rounds feel very valuable, and introduce new strategies.

This map is great, I must say. Very entertaining especially when it comes on full house. 5/5! :D

Thanks again, I really appreciate all the encouragement and enthusiasm. I hope newer versions will keep you guys happy!

---

This map has been updated to minor version 1.4.0 - the bulk of this release replaces the single rune of imperialization with two "shards" of imperialization in separate locations. The round can be won by humans if they secure and return any one shard - this is intended to make the scouting and observing component of beast play a little more involved.

I hope everyone is pleased with these changes, and I look forward to your comments.

Regards,

---

Edit:

This map has been updated to maintenance version 1.4.1 - this update makes small adjustments to abilities and terrain, as well as adding a new ability, to help boost hunter power.

Thanks!

---

Edit:

This map has been updated to maintanence release 1.4.2 which fixes a very game-breaking and very old bug with hunter automatic attack.

---

Edit:

This map has been updated to minor version 1.5.0 which makes significant gameplay and design-side adjustments. Hunters now have acccess to some basic times, and the map is written fully in Jurst!

I look forward to your feedback.

Regards,
 
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I recently tested the update and here's my review.

Hunter's new ability, sprint. Quite interesting as it increases the mobility and micro of hunters. Good thing about it, duration is low, i liked that. Because if you made it long, its op with the net skill. Plus the considerable cooldown.

The items of hunters, very good, you can lose it when you die, and lost if not picked up by allies. Why not beast have too? Not typical shop, but one perk per round, increases something. (I suggest)

Anyways, the change is great! I am looking forward for further updates! You could perhaps add additional modes. Hahahaha! Great work! :)
 

Cokemonkey11

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Sgt.Pierce, thanks for the comments!

The items of hunters, very good, you can lose it when you die, and lost if not picked up by allies. Why not beast have too? Not typical shop, but one perk per round, increases something.

That is almost exactly what I have planned. Unfortunately this release doesn't get into the details for this yet.

---

This map has been updated to version 1.5.1

Note for mappers:

Gameplay-related stuff is written in the changelog, but more interestingly, this map now has fully-scripted object definitions for units, items, abilities, and buffs, which allows branching and forking of object data without acquiring a lock.

Feel free to experiment with the object data and send me a pull request if you think you've done something exciting.


Also note that the map now allows up to 12 players (AI included) - try it out!
 

Alexen

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Messages
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Terrain - simple and unattractive (it is not the core of the game but that doesn't mean it should be so poor) 2/5
System of the game - each round should is kinda the same and not much variation exists there. Use your imagination to make it more entertaining and attracting. 4/5
Gameplay - the characters and their abilities are fine in my point of view, but later on becomes kinda boring and it makes quit instantly. You need to work on the gameplay. 3/5

My rating is 3/5. Improve what I mentioned, make this mod better, it has potential and it would be bad if you waste it like this.
 
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