Flame_Phoenix's Suggestions

okay, what were the bugs? and what is your opinion?


Weell werrmm i have a LOT to say. Here there is a list of bugs, things i don't like and suggestions.

1 - I managed to kill the death knight alone. It is not impossible to do it in single player, and i probably have the replay. Which leads us to the question, perhaps enhancing a single player mode would be a good idea. According to one of the rules to create successful maps, "maps with both single player and multi player modes are better, because they allow people to play in team and to train alone".

2 - I can also see that you took great care with the terrain and it is very good in deed. You managed to divide a medium map into a large map with forest and cities with creeps and quests. However, the paths in the upper forest (where you start after choosing the hero) need to be larger in order to allow team game play. Fighting in restricted areas does NOT improves team play. Your map needs to have larger paths so that various player can fight in team. To solve this problem, i suggest the creation of an "epic" map size. Epic map sizes are normal in RPGs not because it is fun to say that our map is big, but because they are needed. Your map has similarities to RPGs, and so it should be bigger.

3 - Creeps. The creeps are too easy to kill, and there is not a narrative beyond them. You are using the RPG system to create groups of creeps. RPG system determinants that creeps are created and placed in a random order in the map. This is bad, it destroys your narrative.
I suggest you using the ladder system for creeps. Ladder system determinants that creeps are always in small groups (2-3) when in forests, to defend an area (their spawn area), and medium/large groups when they protect something (6-7 when protecting a gold mine or a shop). Goblin shops in ladder are an exception, sometimes they are not protected in order to allow player free access, but when they are protected they have small groups doing it.
The strength of a creeps groups must also be proportional with the size of the groups. Small groups with weak units, large groups (5 max) very strong units.

In your map, i found small groups of trolls in the forest (good) defending no area (very bad) and with no space to allow a team fight (very bad). Later when exploring your map i killed alone huge groups of ogres and trolls with only 1 hero.... This is bad. First, the groups of ogres was protecting nothing, they were just there (bad). It better if you have less units (but stronger) defending something that is worth reaching (like the dragon shop defended by morguls [good]) than lots of units defending nothing. Also the trolls defending the north shop were 2 many, but still very easy to kill. You should add a shop guardian or something with a story, it will only improve you narrative and give more suspense to the game. Guardians also leave great rewards most of the time.

In most cases all huge groups of creeps were easy to kill, and i did it alone ... In team game it will be even easier. You should try to add an intelligent creep system with spells and so on (program the behavior of creeps is not that hard).

In summary your creep system needs a great improvement.

4 - Quests. When the game starts, players should have free access to all quests. I mean that players should KNOW that quests exist in the game and that they can be played. Allowing players to know the existence of quests would greatly increase the competition between death knight and hunters in order to accomplish them first, which would be good for team play.

The key quest The was the only quest i was able to discover. It makes no sense that while you are killing trolls to reach the shop, you get a speech and a quest at the same time. It's just very confusing.
You should allow the quest only after you killed the shop guardians or something like that.
Also, after discovering the quest, i didn't know what do to .... " he told me something about a forest lol ... where the hell is it ?!" This is the question many people will do.
When telling players to reach the forest, you should also give them a direction, like go up or go down, or defeat the nether guardians and return my key.
The narrative of this quest is not much good. A man says that a child has his key ... Then you find the child trapped by nether dragons ... why ??? It makes no sense.

An alternative to fix the narrative in order to make it a web: Hi, my son was kidnapped by some monks far to the nether forest (left map corner)!!! I wanted to sell my boat in order to get gold and buy mercenaries to rescue him, but my son has the key, and no1 will ever buy my boat! I fear i will never see him again!!! Please rescue my son !! if you do so, i will reward you greatly !

The narrative makes more sense because:
a) The nether forest has several ghost monks (great job they look very very good, and they are 100% ok in the forests ambiance) who disappear and appear, thus making it easy to kidnap children.
b) monks and nether dragons are together forces of the evil legion, thus they want chaos and havoc among azeroth.
c) the monks placed the children in a cage in order to sacrifice it to the demon masters (like the orcs sacrificed human in the camp, you can also sacrifice children. It is ok, since you are trying to open the gate for the legion as well as the orcs)
d) You can have free the children, have the keys, and make the children follow you hero to it's father, instead of leaving the poor kid alone in the forest to die (lol).

I also say that the nether forest is one of the best forest you have created, as the strong nether dragons are in a small group defending something worth reaching (just like in ladder system).

5 - I think this is nearly everything from the key quest so i will move on.
The hero selection system.
Your hero selections system is very basic, old and takes a lot of space from you map. Space that you will need for creeps and paths.
I suggest a Tavern system (which is more intuitive and takes less space) or the Vexorians system. You all know the tavern system because it is basic as well, doesn't space at all and because it is very intuitive as well.
I have a tutorial you may be interested in.
Vexorian's system is however more complex. It uses part of your system, but when the player clicks the hero, the player can actually see the hero casting abilities, and the player can see what those abilities do.
It's up to you.

6 -
"Heroes"
a) Icons. You had a lot of research in your icons, and they are actually good. I am impressed. Not comments to say.
b) Models. Your maps as lots of new icons, but still, no new models. I believe that in order to make the game more interesting you should use new models, or new skins.
c) Abilities. You have some custom abilities, but they are not enough. A map with such quality should have more custom abilities in GUI, JASS/JESP. THW has a very rich vault of such abilities, and you could (and should) replace old abilities (like wolf, searing arrow, and avatar in sniper) with fresh new abilities.

7 - Items. Your items are way very balanced (which is very good).
Balance in price and quality was achieved. Congratulations.
However you you summon a bronze dragon it has a bug - you summon a dragon with the WOLF spell. This is a bug many people will see. Is it important ??? Not for game play, but it is important, as it decreases the quality of your map. Continues on next post
 
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Continuation
You can solve this bug by creating a new buff and adding it to the dragon and to the spider (which has the same bug btw).

8 - When the game ends you have several options left (restart, continue, quit, ect).
restart option blocks the system ... Continue option does the same, and therefore the only option that actually works, is the quit option.
You really should fix that.

9 - Game play.
The dark side will get very boring very fast for the dark player. A player alone versus a team will either die very fast or get bored very fast.
It may sound difficult, but you should add a dark team. The knight could the leader of the team, and if the knight dies they loose the game, but a team would make more sense.
This way you would have 2 teams (dark and bad) competing each for to complete quests, creep and kill each other, all before the time ends.
Adding a dark team would also increase the number of players allowed, thus making it possible for more people to play the map and allowing more people to spread it.
Playing alone vs a team can also be frustrating for a beginner.


I think this is all for now.
I have not testes 100% your map yet, but as you can see i did took a portion of my time to do so.

Your map is not perfect and it has mainly some game play issues.
However, my comments are not made to make you loos the faith, or loose hope in the map, they are all meant to be constructive critics.

You made a wonderful map, a great job, that is a fact, and let no1 else tell you it is not. Most people that start a project like you never finish that same project. You did it alone.
However, you should consider my evaluation.



I hope you like my 2 pages comments =) LOL.
i SPENT ALL MORNING TYPING THIS !!! please read it carefully lol.
 
I do not agree. I killed the knight ALONE in single player with 6 hits ... it was easy .. very easy ... That knight alone against a team will be like stealing a candy from a baby ... You can also buy summon items and armors, plus potions ... my hero (sniper) took no damage at all...

I used my summon (wolfs) plus few items (dragon and spider) all together ... i didn't needed my ultimate to even kill the knight.
That is why i believe a team game will be of more success.
 
Nice =). But i believe we should change the hunter... The hunter has too many "old skills". In my opinion we should give to the hunter custom skills, created by our own. Face it, the fact that the hunter only has 1 custom skill (to detect the knight) and the 3 others are summon wolf (far seer) searing arrow (priestess of the moon) and avatar (mountain king) slightly modified ... i believe that we can do better than that .... in fact any1 can do that, what makes heroes amazing is the fact they have cool new abilities, which every dreams to have in their maps. If people see no challenge in getting those abilities, then the heroes will loose interest.

Also, just wait unitl nite sees all my comments ... he will get an heart attack =P
 
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:has a heart attack:

I will respond later, Flame. I'm about to head to school. I read over it though and I have much to say! Many justifications, disagreements, and alas, AGREEMENTS! Keep on the look out.

p.s. Hey Uchiha, write a guide and if it is informative, applicable, and interesting, it will most definitely be approved.
 
Sasuke (i don't like uchila, seems like a Japanese name lol) well, if you want to create a "guide", than i must warn that will not be easy.
Good guides do NOT define only one tactic, but they define all strategies, with pros and cons.
Problem with guides is that every day a new tactic is created by someone on the other side of the world ... Good guides are remade countless times ...
Just look at battle.net and a a look on the guides there. They are NOT the best guides but those are probably ok.

Good luck with that.

And nite, well, i know that my reports will be difficult to change, and therefore i know you don't agree with most of them (lol), as it is human nature to avoid everything that requires a bit more effort (happens to every1, somehow the human brain feels better with fast rewards).
But non less, i am anxious to see your comments.
 
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Actually, the reasons for my disagreements are quite different then simply because they would require work. If I were one to avoid hard work, this map would not exist today. Trust me. Nonetheless, I will voice my response;

*Numbering is not in accordance with yours*

1. Single Player? Were you playing against a computer or a real person? If a computer, there is no AI to control the Death Knight, or any slot for that matter. This game is strictly for multi-player Battle.net use at the moment. It is a piece of cake to destroy a Death Knight that is computer controlled. If he was a player though, he must not have been very good (which is understandable, since not many have played before).

A Death Knight has an extreme advantage, even more so of one in a 1v1 game. He is stronger and therefore can creep faster earning quicker gold/XP, allowing for good items to be bought sooner than a Death Hunter can achieve similar items. A Death Knight can start on Medium, or even Heavy creeps, whereas a single Death Hunter can only undertake a light creep camp and earn gold more slowly until they buy some sort of armor.

I know that in a game with two people who know how to play, it will be quite balanced (since a good Death Hunter will know how to avoid the Death Knight for long enough to creep, gain XP, and buy items). I also know that in order for the Death Hunter to win as easily as you did in a 1v1, the Death Knight player must be inexperienced, and vice-versa.

-However, I think it is a wonderful idea that you proposed to make a Single Player training mode, and now that I think about it this seems very likely for a later release.

2.) Creep System. I really don't see the need to have to implement any more of a ladder system for creeps into Against the Darkness than there already is. There are only a few places that are worth defending (and in each, there are creeps there already). The City Square contains many creeps throughout it, the Dragon Shop is defended by Murlocs, the Totem of Riches by Trolls, the Forest of Deception's waygate by Ogres, and the Merchant Ship of Treasures (Elite Item shop) by the absolute heaviest creep in the game, the Razormanes.

Creeps in the forests are other places that are not defending anything are there for XP and items. There is no reason that they need to be defending anything in my opinion (open up a standard map and you will find many small groups of creeps defending nothing other than land).

Furthermore, creeps do not respond randomly, but rather in a systematic fashion that is pre-determined. The respawned creeps are also assigned item drop tables through triggers.

Lastly, they do have spells and they do use them. I'm not sure what you mean by "an intelligent creep system with spells and so on," when they already have them.

3.) Quests. The third or fourth hint lets both teams know that Quests exist, giving them plenty of time to discover them. This map is not made like an RPG where quests are essential. Quests in Against the Darkness are not essential and are rather there as bonus' that players can find and complete for extra gold or experience. They are meant to be mysterious. In the Info(F9), a helpful hint is given for each Quest after their short description.

The player is supposed to have a hard time completing the Quest, or else it would be a dead giveaway of gold and XP. It also adds to the repeated fun of the game when not everything could be accomplished or completed in the first, or even second and third times playing. It gives people incentive to keep playing.

There actually is a working narrative to the Ancient Mariner's key story though. The child who stole his key was trapped by Deceivers, who are obviously allied with those Nether Dragons (they share the same forest). The head Deceiver (in the very south of the forest) took the shape of the child to trick anyone who comes near and kill them, hiding the real child in a cage guarded by the Nether Dragons. The story fits perfectly in respect to their nature as Deceivers.

4.) Hero Selection. I have no desire to change the Hero Selection system. It was made intentionally to be simple and to the point.

7.) Adding More Custom Hero Abilities... I think it is a wonderful idea, which is, in fact, the reason why I am always working on developing new abilities! If you have any suggestions, let me know of what they are in the Against the Darkness "Spells" sub-forum.

6.) A Dark Team? I have numerous reasons for objecting to a "Dark team".

a.) Nobody likes to be the weaker minions of a stronger player, as you suggested the other players would be under the Death Knight.
b.) The Death Knight is strong enough on his own already to give the Hunters a very hard time, more strength from other dark forces would imbalance the gameplay.
c.) I have, from the beginning, foreseen a 8 versus 1 style of play. It is the backbone of Against the Darkness.
d.) The learning curve is quick as a Death Knight, for you are very strong and the your objective is very clear.

It simply will not happen. Sorry.

7.) Lastly, on models and icons. Thank you for the compliment on the icons, and as far as models go there are actually 3 imported into the game: The Death Knights level 6 ultimate, the Vampire Bat and then there are Burning Fiends and Nether Walkers, but they do not enter the game until Doom.

Thank you for the analysis and suggestions, and I will take many into account.
 
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Thx for moving my thread, but next time WARN me first ... i wasted 40 min writing a post that THW deleted due the inexistence of the current page ... (blarrghhh!!! stupid error !!! ).
So, here i go again:

You should also take my other points in suggestion.

For now i will comment the points you commented:

1) There are two ways of adding a single player method to a game.
A) The dota style. In dota you can play a single player map, where the computer is an intelligent boot. You could teach your DK how to creep, cast spells and so son, thus turning it into a fearsome training boot that would be compared to human skills. This method is hard to do but yet, extremely efficient when achieved.​
B) You can also detect if the host is playing alone. If so, you could activate a trigger which allows the host to play with all heroes, and buy all items. This method is used in Age of Myths. I recommend you either download Dota or AOM for further evaluation.​

2) About the creep system, you didn't get my point. You say because all RPG use a creep system like you, then you see no reason for not using it. Well, here is one: If you have the chance to make your map BETTER than all those RPGs, why not take the chance !?
The RPG reep system is weak and deficient, that's why most RPGs only last 1 week.
Creeps must have something to protect like the gates and so on, but wouldn't it be better to defeat a portal guardian and it's minions than to defeat 10 stupid ogres in a battle with no space to see what's really happening ??
Your map has 1 guardian .... not bad ... Bosses are the engine of RPG, and you should add more than guardian. It would make the game more interesting and yet more difficult.
Also, if you play ladder with attention, you can see that ALL creeps defend something ... They defend shops, gates, fountains, and in most cases a space with tends or a space they can call "home". This creep home it's their spawning area. They have always a region. In your map that just doesn't happen. You are walking and suddenly you see trolls in the middle of the path by no reason defending nothing at all ... or bandits in the middle of no-where ... creeps always have a spot protect by trees, rocks or something else. In your map that doesn't happen.

Also the AI for your creeps. You surely can say that they use spells.... but minor spells... that is not considered real AI, the creeps are still stupid like hell.
I mean that, why can only your heroes have new spells ??? Creeps should have them as well (in my map i have this super creep named Flame_Phoenix dragon (me lol) which has custom new spells made by me). Adding new spells to creeps will only make the game more interesting as players won't expect it. You should teach them how to use such spells.
Also, using spells doesn't make AI good at all. You should also teach creeps how to behave in various situations. When you play against an insane computer (and win in most of the cases lol), you can see that when a unit reaches red health, it gets immediately healed or it is issued an order to go back.
Now imagine that while going back, an assassin creep goes to another nearby creep cam and asks for immediate help ... Very interesting hã ?? It would be like trying to kill a human player in a real world situation.
You should also remember the fact that "nothing in life is free", so instead of leaving trolls in the middle of the forest to give free gold and exp, you should give to them an area to defend (spawning region) or something else. It is proved that the real a game is, the more interesting it will become.
I know i am forgetting to tell you something about creeps, but i can't remember what it is , so i will just move to the next section lol.

3) about the quests, please read the speech bug I've found.
Let's be realistic in a ice an cold way: we know that most people will never press the F9 button, and those people are the majority. This is why it is important for you to let people know about quests. It is ok if you don't want make their life any easier (by telling them where to go or something else) but making them know that there are quests that can be completed will not turn your map into a RPG. It will in fact make the game more interesting.
You should also tell the players the whole story instead of telling them only the beginning and the end.
In the key's quest all i know is: the man asked for help to find his key. I find the key, and he thanks me, i get a reward, end of quest.
I read all the quest info, and this is what i got. If you have such an interesting story, than make sure you make players have knowledge about it. It will just create fans.

4) Your hero system is primitive and ineffective. I believe you can do much better.
The Tavern system is even more easy to follow, and it can keep all the information you need such as story, difficult level, and so on.
The Vexorian's system is also based on yours but it has a tremendous advantage. You should download Age of Myths as they use a version of Vexorian's system to choose their heroes (the original system is with units, like yours, but they use icons, You should give it a look).
I think that changing you actual hero system will only improve you map, as it will either save a lot of space for terrain, or it will give the game a really professional look.
Keep in mind that both the system i suggest are easy to follow, and yet familiar to everyone.

5) spells .... Well I really think you should remove ALL old spells from your heroes (such as avatar searing arrows, wards and so on) and to replace them with new custom spells. That would just make the heroes more attractive. When some1 starts a hero game, if all heroes have no new abilities, the player will loose it's interest in the game - there is nothing new with seeing. However, if all you heroes have new abilities, that people never saw before, they will want to try all heroes, and eventually to copy those abilities, thus making your map famous. If you are creating a new world, then you should do it at 100% and make people think that they are not playing warcraft, but that they are playing a different warcraft, a new warcraft. Illusion of a new reality is an advantage you can and should use.

6) Your map only is playable if the death knight is professional .... that is a great restriction you've got... besides most people will want to play in the good side, because playing alone will not as much fun as it is playing with a team...
I strongly do NOT agree with your opinion, but if you wanted the map to be like this from the beginning than i respect your decision.

7) It is a fact that new models are more interesting in heroes than in creeps. If you have new models you should add them to heroes, and not to creeps ... Heroes with new models will be more interesting. Besides those creeps only appear in very late game .... I've already seen them... but many people won't ...
You are not taking full advantage of your imported models.
To do so, i suggest that you either give them to heroes, or to hero abilities.

I also found a few bugs i would like to mention:
1 - If you kill the death knight near the movie spot something will happen: You will see furion killing the DK, and you will see your current hero dying to the creeps or to the demon lords.... Please make sure you hide or remove all units before a cinematic
2 - What does nerub do !? what does is the function of the ghost ... to say boooohh only ?? lol ... You should add something to them ...
3 - When the timer expires and you enter doom, the DK gains, somehow, 4 extra levels ... Also, if you are in the restricted area you will get teleported to another region together with demon lords and dk ... Don't know if this is already planned.
4 - In the ending cinematic if you have the sniper searing arrows activates, you will actually see the icon's border during the speech of the units.

Finally to end, i think that in the cinematic, the hero that kills dk should appear in the movie, and not furion.

Also, You should add a bounty system which provides bounty to all players who kill creeps in team. Check out THW bounty systems.

End. LOL.

Remember to read all my comments in the other post !!!!
 
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I can't respond to all of this right now, but just to clarify...

1. Being able to see your Hero in the cinematic will be fixed in the next version.

2. The Carrion Lord and Weary Ghost are both quests for the Death Knight. They say that to you because you are a Death Hunter.

3. I do not understand what you mean, I don't see how it is possible that he would gain 4 levels? and if you are in what area will you get teleported out? The Hill? Anyone in the Hill area where the Nether portal opens gets teleported out. This will be changed next version to only include Death Hunter owned units, not those owned by the Death Knight (I think you meant the DK's summons or something got TP'd with you).

4. I don't think there's any way I can fix that Ballistic Bullets will show in the cinematic. That sounds like a Blizzard bug.

5. I agree, I will add that feature. It just has to be the Nature Mage when Doom ends, because no Hero actually kills him.

6. Bounty system - maybe.

7. I'm going to make another way to win if you are the Hunters in Doom: Destroy the Nether Portal (which will have probably around 6,500 HP, not an easy undertaking!)
 
Well, i could report more bugs and suggetions to fix them, but for now i will wait for you read read ALL my comments (lol) with care and to give you time to cook afew answers =P.

If you need my help, you know what to do.

Oh, and another bug:
1 - The accatck item is the only item which is different ... shouldn't all items be different ??? I believe so lol.
 
MMM i will post an image for you to understand it.

EDIT
Image1.jpg

Well here it is. Can you explain me why is the attack icon the only different icon !?!?

Why is he not equal to the others ??

Or,

Why are the others not changed as well ???

This combination really ruins the ambiance.
 
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Mmmmm, well, Age of Myths has a good set of icons for attack, move, patrol, and stop. You should check them out.

Also, if you want to save some map space you should see the "hidden icons". Hidden icons are new icons hidden in warcraft that take no extra space.

Check out the Archian's tutorial in the general mapping tutorials section.
There are also hidden models and doodas that you can use as well.

Me and Wolverabid are working in the improvement of that tutorial now.=)
 
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2) About the creep system, you didn't get my point. You say because all RPG use a creep system like you, then you see no reason for not using it. Well, here is one: If you have the chance to make your map BETTER than all those RPGs, why not take the chance !?
The RPG reep system is weak and deficient, that's why most RPGs only last 1 week.
Creeps must have something to protect like the gates and so on, but wouldn't it be better to defeat a portal guardian and it's minions than to defeat 10 stupid ogres in a battle with no space to see what's really happening ??
Your map has 1 guardian .... not bad ... Bosses are the engine of RPG, and you should add more than guardian. It would make the game more interesting and yet more difficult.
Also, if you play ladder with attention, you can see that ALL creeps defend something ... They defend shops, gates, fountains, and in most cases a space with tends or a space they can call "home". This creep home it's their spawning area. They have always a region. In your map that just doesn't happen. You are walking and suddenly you see trolls in the middle of the path by no reason defending nothing at all ... or bandits in the middle of no-where ... creeps always have a spot protect by trees, rocks or something else. In your map that doesn't happen.

Also the AI for your creeps. You surely can say that they use spells.... but minor spells... that is not considered real AI, the creeps are still stupid like hell.
I mean that, why can only your heroes have new spells ??? Creeps should have them as well (in my map i have this super creep named Flame_Phoenix dragon (me lol) which has custom new spells made by me). Adding new spells to creeps will only make the game more interesting as players won't expect it. You should teach them how to use such spells.
Also, using spells doesn't make AI good at all. You should also teach creeps how to behave in various situations. When you play against an insane computer (and win in most of the cases lol), you can see that when a unit reaches red health, it gets immediately healed or it is issued an order to go back.
Now imagine that while going back, an assassin creep goes to another nearby creep cam and asks for immediate help ... Very interesting hã ?? It would be like trying to kill a human player in a real world situation.
You should also remember the fact that "nothing in life is free", so instead of leaving trolls in the middle of the forest to give free gold and exp, you should give to them an area to defend (spawning region) or something else. It is proved that the real a game is, the more interesting it will become.
I know i am forgetting to tell you something about creeps, but i can't remember what it is , so i will just move to the next section lol.

How do I create an AI? Do I use triggers which will take up a lot of space, or the AI editor (in which case I have no idea how to use it).
 
Well, you can use both systems.
The trigger system if made correctly will NOT be as big as you may initially think. It all depends on the complexity you want to give to your creeps.
You can JASS to accomplish this, but GUI will also work.
On the other hand, you can also use the AI editor. In that case i advice you to read some tutorials that THW has about AI. AI will probably work better, but it is much more complex because it uses a more advanced programming language.

You have the methods, now you just need to choose which one you prefer.
As i said, the method you want to use, depends on the complexity of the behavior you want to teach.
 
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