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Fate Industries Project 1: The Final Dominion

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When Fate Industries is finished with its map servicing, it will begun one of its own maps.
Oh crappo, I forgot about technology and scientists : O


The map will be run on many core systems designed by Fate Industries including MOP - Multiple Objects and Properties
TAC - Tactics and Combat
PAC - Physics and Collision

With this combination, the following is allowed:
Complete Multi-Instancing with unique data types for each instance.

A full 3D combat environment that requires skills. Imagine combat in the highest degree (dodging, aiming, reaction time, etc).

Full tactics including energy consumption (can be food, power sources, etc. Can either be replenished or not. It is whatever the user intends).

Complete physics and Collision (brings the tactics and combat engines up to a new level using basic vector analysis)

The Final Dominion

As you can imagine from the core systems list above, this will be an intense strategy/combat style game. It will allow full customization of each and every unit in your arsenal. The object of the game is much like risk requiring you to take over all countries of the world. The countries have cities, capitols, and so forth. In essence, you are creating your own country (everyone's country is based upon what cities they control). There are no set countries and territories.

The Land

The land only has a few cities upon it. Most of the cities you will build yourself as you work to expand your empire. You start out in one of these cities (your choice). From here, you can increase your fame (giving you more influence) by helping the people within the city or the government. You may also establish your own small unit. You may not command more than one unit without officers below you. Each unit must have an officer at the head otherwise it cannot attack or move. It will simply disintegrate (the troops will leave).

A city has different aspects to it.

Farms provide food to the citizens and the armies within. More farms and more power to the farms allow you to have a larger army and a larger city. Without farms, army morale drops and people leave your city. Low food also gives rise to thieves, bandits, and revolutionists. Revolutionists attempt to overthrow your government with their own army.

Markets give your city gold to raise armies, pay troops, pay officers, pay for repairs, etc. A city must derive their income from the taxes on the markets. Markets may have housing, food, etc. All aspects of the market are important. With a weak housing market, people can't afford to live in the city. With a weak food market, people can't afford the food even if there is a large amount of food going in (the farmers make cash). Markets rise and fall. To create a stable market, the govt must constantly be funding it and warding off thieves, bandits, etc.

A police force is also required. This can either be a military power in the city (creating bunkers etc) or an actual police force. A military power isn't usually needed unless the city is on the front line. A military power lowers the want to stay in the city.

Order within the city is fully based on the force (police/military) holding the city together. A low order gives rise to revolutionists, rebels, thieves, bandits, and so forth. It also allows enemy forces easier access into the city (destruction of property without even knowing they are there). Increasing the guards of the city, patrolling the city, etc, is a way to increase order. Order is based upon every part of your city.

Keep in mind that enemy officers may sneak into your city spreading rumors, killing people, and what not attempting to lower order. By increasing the guards around your city and patrolling your city, you can find these officers.

An enemy officer may also plant spies in your city. These spies constantly lower order and damage parts of your city. They may spread fires etc. An officer may place a spy down based upon their abilities. The higher the ability, the more difficult the spy. Multiple spies can lead to true chaos.

An enemy force may also send massive amounts of officers to specific cities (sneaking in). They may plant spies and spread destruction themselves. If this is not controlled with quick precision, it can lead to full chaos causing your city to collapse. This makes it extremely easy to capture.

A cities defense is based upon both the forces of the city (an army is a more powerful force than the police force, but is still more suggested for the front lines as it chokes the city) and the walls/gates of the city. If an army were to attack, the walls, gates, defensive structures etc would prevent the army from skipping your forces entirely and going for the heart of the city. Imagine if they took over the city while you were trying to defend it? You would have nowhere to go, food would be cut off, etc. A good strategy is to create a food supply based outside of the city and protect it that way if a city is taken, it can be taken back without troops abandoning you.

A city is taken when the government facility is destroyed. The more government facilities you build, the harder it is to take. These structure have extremely low defense and health, so it is somewhat pointless. It is better to build defensive structures. To take the city back, you must beat the opposing force if there is no government facility yet. This is why you really need to have supply depots outside of the city. If you have no defensive structures, it is easier for an enemy to take and defend a city. The minute your government facilities fall, you must defeat the enemy commander to get the city back. You lose something as soon as the military power protecting it falls.

An army is not enough to defend a city. You must have walls so that the enemy cannot run past you. They will still focus on your walls more than your troops, but you will be able to beat them off before they make it through. Keep your defensive structures in repair, and if it is an overwhelming force, attempt to outlast them. Remember, they don't have constant food like you. Destroy their shipment of food etc. You may also want to destroy any of their allied cities so that food cannot get to them.

All armies must travel along a road. All cities must be built on a road. If there is no road, you need to build a road there ; P.

You cannot destroy roads. When armies don't travel on a road, you have massive casualties and morale drop. It is possible to go without a road, but it is a terrible decision to do this.

To quickly defeat an enemy force, you should focus on the commanders so that their units are easy to route. Killing a commander is a massive blow to morale. As morale drops, units get weaker and even begin to run away. When morale hits 0, all but the bravest will have run. Killing an enemy commander will make morale instantly drop to 0. Enemy commanders give off morale. The closer their units are, the more morale the unit gets from the commander.

The more commanders, the higher the morale and the more places that can be attacked.

An officer may also have sub-officers, and those may also have sub-officers. An army is lead by 1 general. That general typically has 1 unit and many officers under it. Those officers have officers under them. Each officer may only have 1 unit. Based upon their rank and ability, the amount of officers they may have under them can vary. The higher the rank, the more officers they are allowed under them.

You cannot see the entire battle field. You can only see in the range of your single unit (your main character). Messengers are vital to run your empire and to winning a war. Without messengers, you cannot relay commands on to your sub-officers. This means they will act on their own. They will not know the entire battle front, so enemy tactics may cripple you. Your forces may be split and overrun one by one. Multiple messengers are suggested as enemies may track them down and kill them. They may even replace your messengers with spies that feed false information and give false commands. This can easily lead to allies attacking other allies. Your army could tear itself apart. Your forces can even be turned against you.

With spies, your own military unit may even fight itself. They may even think you are a spy disguised as there commander.

Order within your military makes it harder for them to be convinced, but you can see where you can tear yourself apart.

When you are creating an army, you may set it up to have different strengths and weaknesses based on the units you establish. You can see this from the examples above. A unit may have an extremely weak force, but then again, it may not even need a strong force. Its power may be in its spies. Then again, if you have a lot of messengers, spies can be easily found out. If you send three messengers off and only one is captured and replaced with a spy, that spy will have a different message from the other two. This tells whoever you sent the message to that he is a spy. If they are even, the general kills both of them and does his own thing. Your message is not sent -.-. If the spies outnumber your own messengers, then... the spy message is sent and your messengers are killed. The spies are sent back feeding your false information and the chaos begins unless the general sends some of his own messengers along with the spies.

The whole goal is to overpower spies with messengers.

If the army you are facing has a strong military power, many messengers aren't even needed. You will only need enough to get at least one through without being killed or captured.

Magic also serves a part in all of this. Magicians have a great deal of power but are extremely hard to find.

You may not train and create your own officers except for your main character. All officers are found in the world. You may execute them when they are captured, attempt to employ them, build your relations with them, etc. Officers may or may not join your army. The only things that bind them to you is your friendship with them and, if they are under your command, their loyalty to you. To increase loyalty, you need to give them rewards such as gold, otherwise they could easily turn into a spy or even leave your side. Be careful who you employ. You never know how an officer will feel about you. You cannot see how much of a friend they are to you and you cannot see their loyalty to you. If you employ anyone, they could very well be a spy or someone conspiring against you.

When you begin a fight, all of your officers could turn against you and kill you.

Another factor in the game is your main character's age. The older they are, the higher stats they can start out with and the more skills they can start out with. However, the older they are, the less time they have on the world. It is suggested that you start out young and join another force so that you may increase your talents faster than if you started out older. The easiest road to travel on is starting out at a medium age.

You need to decide for yourself. Your officer will live based on their health. If they get a lot of wounds, they could die from their injuries. If they eat poorly, their life span may go down. You need to judge how long you think the game will be. The more accurate you are, the better off you will be. You need to make them old enough that they will last to the very end of the game. If they die, it is game over for you. An officer under your ranks will take over and continue your empire, but you will not be in control of anything. You may watch and hope they do well, but that is all you can do.

You can form alliances with other forces, but be wary. They can betray you at any time. If they are far spread out, the word to betray you may take longer unless it was carefully planned out. Just be careful with whom you choose to ally with.

Much of what I said relies on you being the sovereign. You may pretty much be anyone in the game. A merchant, an officer, a soldier, etc. It is all based on how you distribute your stats. You get an amount of stats based on your age. Abilities open to you based on your stats and your experience in that field.

There is also fame. Fame makes everything easier to do because people know who you are. The max fame is when everybody knows who you are and every accomplishment you have ever done. This is when you become a legend of the land.

The lowest fame is when nobody knows who you are at all. If you even know one person, you have a little bit of fame ;p. The average person may only have about 20-40 fame. A ruler may get up to 500-800. A legend may have 2000.

You may save your main character. When you start a new game, you can start off with their experiences. Start them off very young and train them up to be perfect. Save them when they are at the perfect age (about 30). Start them when they are children. Live out their life.

In the first few games you play, you aren't really going to be participating in politics or war unless you start yourself off at a later age. I really wouldn't recommend this because you won't be near the power of those who started off at birth =). In this way, this game can act both as an RPG and a regular game.

Also, keep in mind that your fame saves as well ; ). You can create whoever you want. They may be incredible at politics. You can also save their highest position meaning you start the game out at that position. When you start a new officer at a higher age, you can also start out at that position if your stats and abilities were distributed properly. Positions are open to you based upon the officer you built ^_^.

Make a team with your friends and compete in clan matches. Maybe one of you is a merchant so that you can quickly create strong economies. Another is a warrior to provide quick order. Another is a ruler to lead your armies.

Team dynamics are essential to victory. Victory can be a variety of things. It may not be ruling all the land. Maybe you want to be an incredible merchant supplying most of everything to every force? This is a lot of power in its own way.

There are many types of power. Choose which one you want to be amazing at and go for it. When you spread yourself out too much, you will not be great at anything.

When you focus too much, you won't be able to do enough to be really great.

If you just suck at the game, your stats are going to be incredibly low.

Everything in the game requires intense amounts of skill. If you are going to be a leader, you need to deal with city politics, economies, war, etc. If you are going to be an officer, you need to deal with everything assigned to you, combat, and running your own unit along with officers under you. If you are going to be a soldier, you need to deal with combat. If you are a merchant, you are dealing with other customers, investing your gold, etc.

Everything requires a large amount of skill. The higher the position you go for, the harder it is going to be to be great at that position. The hardest thing you can be is a ruler as it requires just about everything. This means you need an incredible build and you need a lot of skill. Practice on default characters first so that you can raise your skills at whatever you want to be great at. From here, create your own perfect character, build him up, and use your own skills to make sure that he gets the most stats possible.

The goal of the game is to make sure you win at whatever you do. If you are a soldier, you must not be killed. Just be great at combat and know how to follow orders. If you are a spy, you must know how to mimic the enemy precisely. Everything requires skill... nothing is automated. Your allies (the AI) have skill based on your skill. The more morale, the better they fight (strong leadership) etc. If you have a weak economy, low order, low morale, and so forth, everything under your command is gong to be weak.

This is the first project Fate Industries will design.

Hopefully, it will be a masterpiece.
 
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Reaction times cannot be used properly in WC3. They simply can't - the engine was never designed for it, and latency is too large. In melee you don't really notice it, since giving orders at speed is the thing, rather than reaction times on a micro level.

3d interfaces are almost impossible to get right, and I very much doubt you'll manage combat in 3d effectively, especially since you'll need to trigger all combat.
 
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Reaction times cannot be used properly in WC3. They simply can't - the engine was never designed for it, and latency is too large. In melee you don't really notice it, since giving orders at speed is the thing, rather than reaction times on a micro level.

3d interfaces are almost impossible to get right, and I very much doubt you'll manage combat in 3d effectively, especially since you'll need to trigger all combat.

Thanks for bursting the bubble :thumbs_down:
 
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You guys really piss me off

I've already made a combat system

Guys, don't try to say what I'm doing is impossible because I've already made alpha versions of it

You guys just sound like morons to me -.-

If you don't know how to do it, don't tell other people who know how to do it that it's impossible

Ty

It is proper to remain skeptical when you claim things that seem to exceed the engines limitations.
 
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You don't have to spout off though unless the person is asking for help and doesn't have a clue at what they are talking about ^_^

I know the engines limitations =P

And I figure all the systems won't be able to run together because of the limitation of threads. The only way to get around engine limitation is through manipulation of the threads with your own data allocation command ^_^ along with a global array library to store the data ; P. This system that I devised is called MOPS. All other systems I talked about above will be able to run off of MOPS, but then again, how I distribute the threads between the systems will determine how well it runs. 72 threads might not be enough because it takes a lot of threads to run these systems considering the spectacular limitations of the engine itself. Without proper data allocation, a thread could easily crash in a split second.

To go around the limitations and attempt to set your own higher bounds, you really need to know what you're doing.

So, please

Be skeptical if you want, but don't continue to say it's impossible. Spouting out terms to other people is like attempting to crush their dreams. Let people continue to try to reach for their dreams.

It is best to simply comment on the ideas presented rather than engine limitations. If the person is doing it, they probably know about all of the specs of the engine being used and they've probably figured everything out.

If you are still unsure, ask them if they have solutions to the engine limitations, don't just say it's impossible and that they are failures and have no idea what they are talking about. When you do this, you only have yourself to blame if a fight emerges because you fail to understand proper communications : P.

Never ever dictate terms, only ask those presenting ideas concerning solutions to possible limitations. If they say they figured out how to get around it, just have faith and believe in them. If they have no clue, then you can spout on about your own discoveries if they really want to know your findings.

A person never has a right to trample over someone else's dreams. Everyone here who attempted to do this was in the wrong.

You never have the right to trample over someone. To kill their dreams is to kill a part of that person. Let them try and find out for themselves. If they know more than you, you'll only look like a fool in the end. It's best just not to attack other people and their dreams. It's only good to defend.

I just can't stand some of the people on these forums. They make me so angry. Some people think they're better than everybody else and that they know more than everybody else. Guys, grow up and learn to respect other people. I just.. I can't even begin to describe how angry I get when I see people act like this... Being skeptical is one thing, but to... learn to be a decent human being before you talk and offer your own advice, otherwise you're only going to make more indecent people and the world is only going to get worse and worse. It'll never get better unless people learn this...
 
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I have ever right to trample over bullshit.

You can memory hack WC3 all you want (and I am suprised you're bothering to given the lack of any thing you can really do without remaking the networking systems to be much lower latency, and re-doing the interface to make 3d work possible. 3d combat would also need the complete redoing of combat and the triggering of all ranges. I suspect you'd also run in rendering issues, since WC3's rendering systems are botched unless things are placed how it expects.
 
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well i never put you down man, cause as much as I wish i knew about jass for wc3, i don't know anything.

So too me this sounds great and I couldn't think of anything better to improve upon this.
 
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Well, consider that every unit needs 1 thread to move, 1 thread to attack, etc.

800 is probably around what was needed for a typical ladder game and a bit more. Units were limited by food in take because of the 800 thread limit along with polygon limits to the engine itself.

Saying that a system like the combat system I'm going to design is impossible would be like saying the current damage system used by warcraft 3 is impossible. It would be like saying massive instances of movement for each and every unit is impossible. When creating a new system, your new system replaces the old system meaning all the threads used for the old system get attributed to your new system.

You've lost this argument.

Better luck next time.

And by the way, wc3 does use a lot of threads because of what I just stated. This is why when you have enormous amounts of units that it takes them awhile to load. It's because there aren't enough threads for them all. It probably attempts to limit the threads to prevent lagging and freezing, but still.

You've still lost this argument : P
 
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C/C++ doesn't have a thread limit. Movement/combat in WC3 is not in JASS.

Anyway, you're going to trigger all movement and attacking?

Ha!

Impossible. Really, JASS is FAR too slow to do pathing effectively in. And then the combat aquisition (same problems as physics), etc. That stuff is all done in C/C++ because of speed. JASS cannot even touch them for speed, and WC3 pathing is bad enough as it is.
 
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As long as there are less than about 1600 units on the map, it shouldn't be a problem ^_^. I'm saying 1600 moving/attacking units.

If there are more like 3200, then you'll start seeing delays.

wc3 can read about 1100-1250 lines of JASS per second depending on the size of the line. That's per thread as well. It'll take about 6 milliseconds for each instance to occur meaning you might have a .12 second delay with 1600 units. It might be noticeable when it hits 3200 or so units because it'll be more like a quarter of a second.

Really.. how many maps are going to use even 1000 instances of attacking/moving units. Even then, to get it to be even noticeable, how many maps will have 3200* attacking/moving units?

Please, you've still lost this argument ^^

Consider that every player has 200 units and there are 12 players, that would still be under the threshold for a quarter of a second delay meaning it really won't be noticeable.

A custom combat system isn't really meant for extremely large instances. It could easily handle an RPG, an AoS, or any map that's under 800-1000 units. There won't really be any noticeable delay. If you had 6400 units, then the system would simply be too slow. You would have to rely on regular wc3 combat with C++. And then, just imagine how slow they will move with pathing -.-

Just let it go mate. Are you really going to argue for the sake of arguing, or do you think all grand systems for wc3 should just never be made?

Well, in that case, don't use them. Let other people like me who are making them and want to use them use them. Don't argue for the sake of arguing. We both know that it will work. You just think it won't be up to snuff with the regular. Well, in certain conditions, it won't.

If you don't want to use it, that's fine for me.

This is what I hate about some people as well. They argue for the sake of arguing. If someone's making it, let them make it and let people use it. Don't go this is bs. If it works, it works. Leave it at that -.-

MOPS can handle about 1000 commands per second. I think that's pretty nice compared to the regular systems out there. With the combat system running through it, it won't be a problem because the initial MOPS command simply sends the data to a new thread. That's why it's so fast -.-. Considering the combat system will also be working off of the MOPS multi-threading system, the actual MOPS speed won't really apply because you'll be sending in multiple commands at the same time. MOPS will split those commands into different parts so it'll be faster.

Once again, you lost this argument. Every time you bring up a point, I pound it down. Dude, just stop. Once again, arguing for the sake of arguing isn't cool. I'm a great debater and unless you have literally timed how long it takes JASS to read each character, complete thread capabilities, etc, I'm not going to listen because there's no point. I have pretty accurate estimates. If you want to go on, believe me, I have more to bring out.

I had to know these estimates to keep multiple threads from accessing and modifying the same pieces of data. If you're going to argue with a guy who's attempting to create a new structure for JASS to work off of, then -.-. Not that it's actually a new structure, but still : P

And most people here think the thread limit for wc3 is 72. That's only when you're going through GUI. This is so threads can be allocated to unit movement. I don't know the full structures, but it might even be possible that the 800 thread limit is allocated to each player, meaning the true thread limit is 9600. This would make more sense. However, I don't have any proof of my claims yet, and then it wouldn't make any sense -.-. It's more probable that 72 threads were set aside (6 threads per player) for the game and the other 728 were set aside for the back-end to use (the C++). Accessing those 728 threads might be dangerous, but it doesn't really matter if you are going to be replacing some of the back-end systems -.-. Those used threads will no longer be used etc.

Just stop man.
 
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I think we're getting off topic here. If I'm not mistaken, this was to ask about, and possibly offer insight to Nestharus' ideas. Since he states he has already made alpha systems, your skepticism can only go so far. Please limit your responses to positive input, and at the least constructive criticism.

Don't blow up in Nestharus' face just because he wants to go above and beyond.
 
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He doesn't have the foggiest understanding of how anything works.

Lines of JASS mean nothing. Micro-ops mean a bit more, but still not much. The relationship between lines of JASS and processing necessities is negligable. Your variance is tiny compared to the reality.

You also fail to understand exponential relationships...100 units in an area could well be 100 times laggier than 10 units, for example - and that's just polynomial.

.12 seconds is 120ms, which is VERY noticable, particularly when added to the net latency problem (which you can't overcome).

You aren't qualified to have this debate, because your understanding of JASS and how stuff works is obviously lacking for the moment.
 
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Bro, I know the numbers I gave. But realize that these are for extreme circumstances that most maps will not have. The system is more designed for a hero-based map.

I doubt people would use it for regular war maps.

It still works so just stop dude.

And I do understand. Based on how I designed this, it's not based on the unit precisely, but the code attributed to it and the amount of units that need to have data allocated -.-
 
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Level 23
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Forgive me for intruding, but with all this madness floating around, why not just write your own engine? Or at least, hi-jack one at the lower level (e.g. Torque) and write all this shiz in.

It seems an awful waste of effort to do all this for Warcraft III, which is in itself... Well, a bit shit.
 
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Well, I just won't release the system publicly if people don't want to use it

that's easy

Fate Industries and sponsors will be the only ones to use them -.-

If you change your mind, just admit that what I'm doing is possible, especially since I've already done systems in alpha stages and tested them fully with positive results...

when you do, I'll release them publicly again, but the longer you say I'm not qualified and have no idea what I'm talking about, the longer these systems are going to be locked from the public.

You need to show respect to others. I've shown respect to you by presenting you with cold hard facts. You've shown me nothing but words, and in the end all you could say was that I'm not qualified to even participate in a debate like this.

You've shown me nothing that says that what I'm doing is impossible. You've presented nothing. I've actual done testing and I've presented numbers based on my results. I also happen to know how warcraft 3 runs, so I know its full limitations and I know how to get around them.

I know the engine behind warcraft 3 is junk for this day, but until starcraft 2 comes out, I'll still be working on designs for warcraft 3.

If you don't want to use something, you don't have to. But you can't simply state something unless you have solid evidence to support your claims. You don't know how I'm going to set these systems up. You don't know how I'm going to allocate the data. You don't know how I'm going to limit the threads to prevent computer freezing/crashing and to keep it as fast as possible.

You just need to learn when to stop being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk. If you want to debate, you need to present facts, not fancy words.

If you don't, then just leave the stage and give up and accept what I'm saying. Until you run your own tests or you present something previously done, there's no point in even trying. You might as well be saying that the sun circles around the earth. How does it circle around the earth? Well, gee, I don't know. It just does.

First learn how to properly debate, and then if you really want to help everyone and save them from what you deem is impossible, prove it.

Until then, you have nothing to say. You can keep saying it's impossible or whatever you might want to say.

I know it's slower. Most people who use JASS know that JASS is slower than C++. You don't even have to know JASS to know JASS is slower than C++. Generally speaking, scripting languages are slower than the languages they are written off of. It's just common sense. -.-

PERL is slower than plain HTML
JASS is slower than plain C++
A system designed for a specific purpose in JASS is slower than just plain JASS. People who use systems will realize that systems are generally slower than if they had written it out specifically for their map.

Globalization, power, ease of use, and speed are priorities in that order.

JASS is extremely versatile allowing you to pretty much make any kind of game you want to.

JASS is a pretty powerful scripting language, especially for a game.

JASS is quite easy to use and even has a GUI to make it easier in case you are a full beginner.

The last priority means JASS is pretty fast for a scripting language

Obviously, JASS isn't as versatile, powerful, as easy to use, or as fast as C++. It's like a system made for a specific purpose. This means it's slower, weaker, and things are harder to set up. The ease of use for using the language toward that specific thing makes it much easier than C++. However, when you attempt to make your own things out of JASS, it's a lot harder because it wasn't designed for those purposes.

It's the same way with save/load systems
physics systems
and so on and so on

You can keep arguing and arguing, but most of us know the facts, or at least I hope so. We also know what warcraft 3 can handle and can't handle. This is why I said a custom combat system wouldn't be recommended for large scale war maps. Yet you continue to ignore me saying C++ is oh so much faster. No kidding it's faster. If it were legal for me to go into the exe file and do it all in pure C++, I would. Then I would make it an option for maps to either access the new combat system or the old one. From there, map users could modify it how they liked.

I'd also change the JASS language around to work more like the MOPS system I'm designing. But you know what, it's illegal and it would take me a long time to hack into the exe file if I even wanted to do it.

What you're saying is irrelevant.

We have a JASS language

We can pretty much create any sort of game or system with that JASS language. It may not be as fast as C++, but it's still usable and the speed isn't noticeable save for extremely large case scenarios.
 
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because then all the people on wc3 couldn't use it. Only me : P

I don't generally write things for myself. I write things for other people ^_^. If someone needs it, I write it. I stopped some of my projects because the only person interested in it was me : P.

Such as:
The Saver 1.0 (75-80% compression)

: D

You could... Release it? I just mean; why not make an entirely stand-alone product altogether?
 
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So, what you're saying is, you aren't going to release it?

Put up or shut up. The burden of proof lies on YOU, the person who is proposing all this bullshit, not upon the sceptics.

Thank you, good night, and now the argument is finished. No one sane and in their right mind is going to believe you.
 
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no, people disagreeing with newton's law is more like it -.-

What do you all think since this is an opinion based argument (like arguing whether a ham sandwich tastes better than a turkey sandwich)

Is .006 just too much of a delay?

Will it just increase the net lag by 10+%? Even 1%?

That's not for someone to decide and dictate. If you are arguing that point, you're a fool. That's based on opinion. To force your opinions on to someone else or on to a community only shows what type of person you are. Opinions are free ranging. Everyone has their own opinion.

So let me hear all of your opinions. You know the numbers, now tell me what you think.

Questionnaire
1. Is 6 milliseconds too long for something like a combat system? Try clocking 6 milliseconds on your computer.

2. Should people be able to force their opinions on matters on to other people? Or should people be free to make up their own mind?

3. Do you agree with me in saying that a case of 3200+ instances (about .12 second delay) would cause problems because the delay is just too large?

this is only data for a combat system. A 3D pathing system, as Griffen pointed out, would be based on the unit along with the JASS. The combat system would only be based off of the JASS. A 3D physics system will only support an estimate of about 200-250 units without any real increases in delay.

You don't need to know JASS to participate now. Everyone has the data. What side of this debate is your side? = )

Your responses will determine whether I really decide to really this or just keep it for private sponsors and for Fate Industries developers.
 
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Funny how Nes throws out statistics, proof, etc, yet ol Captain Asshole is just complaining about something he apparently knows nothing about. If you're so concerned about the evilness of delay in it, then host with fecking list checker. Then everyone will get the same amount of delay from the triggers. If you've ever played an FPS game on your computer where it lags, you'll notice :)O) There's a tiny delay :O:O:O:O OMGOMGOMGOGMGGOMG. It's not a big deal, I've been playing Crysis past few days, and I'm probably getting 15-30 FPS, which gives me a bit of delay too... Probably more than Nes' super crazy Borg-like-efficiency triggers, and I've been doing just fine in that game.

Besides, if it really is how he describes it, would people REALLY stop playing it just because of a tiny bit of delay?
 
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0.006 ms is an impossiblely low delay to actually achieve (I'm talking real game situation), and if the JASS is causing a serious delay problem, then the issue with be that your FPS will be incredibly choppy (if you are getting .12 second delays, then you have a serious issue in terms of display quality - ever tried playing at sub-10 FPS? Not fun).

The problem lies in the WC3 networking system. Let's take an example - the Unreal engine. It uses, I do believe, UDP - WC3 using TCP (slower but more reliable). Those sort of differences add up to a considerable difference in latency which means that WC3 can't do twitch gameplay properly. In addition, UT in stuff like insta-gib compensates for lag (hence why you can kill each other with instant hitting and killing weapons) - otherwise the host would have a rediculous advantage.
 
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First off I didn't say .006 ms, I said 6 ms or .006 seconds*

Once again, you are taking everything out of term

If you read, I said 3200 isn't recommended because of a .12 second delay. That's the one you think I'm putting claims on.

You need to learn how to read before you can debate

And earlier, we were talking about the delay it adds. Now you are moving on to talk about the net delay. If you get list checker, then that delay is solved.

Thank you

First read the posts before you posts. Don't take things out of term because you look like an idiot. Learn about the list checker program.

And as I said before, this is an opinion based argument. We all know you're opinion on it. The fact is it still works, it just adds that small delay.

Now let other people voice their opinions.

Is 6 milliseconds too big to live with? I'm not saying .006 ms, I'm saying .006 seconds.

That number was retrieved after doing many tests. That's about how long it will take for 1 instance to go through and considering it can do up to 800 instances at a time, that number applies up to about 1200.

Learn the facts and come back later when you're ready

And by the way, this is how much delay it adds, not the actual delay. If you are so experienced, you should know this. You are beginning to sound like a fraud to me.
 
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The actual delay (and the relative delay, host to player) is more significant for gameplay changes than how much delay you add (a serious addition to gameplay delay in a local manner will cause it to be highly unenjoyable, though - anything more than around 0.02 s is unsightly). You can't have any real sort of a working twitch gameplay in a decent sense over the internet on wc3.

And I meant 0.006 s, not ms, sorry.
 
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Well, I know that, and that's why we have list checker. With list checker, there is pretty much no delay as long as the host is decent. The only thing this wouldn't work on are 256k and 56k hosts, but nobody likes playing off of them anyways.

Just use list checker and that'll increase the functionality of the system. If you don't, I'd agree with you. But eh, the tools out there make this all possible : P.

The delay this adds to the game is insignificant. If someone were to max the system out, the FPS would suck. 800 threads going at once is just overkill. Even with an incredible computer, you're going to freeze until a good amount is resolved. But eh, it shouldn't be noticeable because as long as the lines used by the system are at a minimum, then the thread count should stay low. I don't plan on ever allowing a system to use the max of 800 threads. Even with 800 units fighting, it's improbable. If it does happen, then eh.

It's safe to use the system on a max of 800-1200 units, and I'll stand by those numbers. If you go above that as I keep saying, you're going to have issues, not just in the delay added, but in the thread count. At 1200, you'll be over the limit (1000 threads). This is a very insignificant delay, but the FPS drops. At 800 you only use up to 600 threads. These are instances at once. If there is even a small delay between these instances, the numbers drastically drop.

I imagine that in a real case scenario with 3500 units all fighting, you might be just hitting the thread limit. If all of them attacked at once, that'd be terrible... but eh ; P.

So, if anyone plans on replacing any key systems with systems run on MOPS, I suggest that they suggest list checker for their maps. Without it, the host would be given a major advantage as you pointed out earlier. With it, it'll be ok as long as the host is decent.

I believe that wc3 uses UDP for LAN ^_^. That's why there is such a major difference in delay between regular b.net games and list checker games. It would also make sense.

Now, are there any other concerns that need to be addressed?
 
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