DBZ Before Super Saiyan 1.02

[Moderator]

11:38, 15th Apr 2010
ap0calypse: Rejected

 

[Via-Purifico]

Finally got it up on Hive! Hurrayyy~! ;D!

 

[light bolt30]

Very nice description, why not also add some screenshots?; I've seen many DBZ maps but why don't you show us whats makes it different from the others by showing us what makes the map special with screenshots.

 

[SSJ2-Trunks]

Oh, I plan to add screenshots. I just wanted to get it uploaded first. Might have some up tomorrow after figuring out some good ones to upload. Thanks for the advice, though.

 

[Kl3sk]

Downloaded / tested it and it's such a disappointment I don't even want to review it.
There are a lot of DBZ maps on the Hive that are vastly superior to this...this...mockery!
Excuse me for my harsh words and lack of constructive criticism, but this really wasn't worth my time.

* Suggestions : removal from the map section until enhancing triggering skills, improving terrain, adding CUSTOM models, etc.

- Rating : N / A
- Voting for : Rejection & Removal

 

[SSJ2-Trunks]

Heh, it's great to see people on Hive will play a map for 10 minutes or so and judge it just by that alone. I bet neither of you even played it with other people, let alone set the lack of custom models aside.

Calling the map a mockery is really inexcusable, whether you apologize for it or not. Maps like DBZ Tribute pay little respect to the actual series and turn battles into "Whoever throws the first beam wins". This actually goes through the story and stays true to it.

I'd expect more from users with that amount of reputation than to test a map for such a brief amount of time, by themselves in a map that is clearly stated to need a full house, and to obsess about the lack of custom model WHEN I CLEARLY SAID I HAVE NO INTEREST IN EVER DOING SUCH A THING. Why you all love to see lacking anime models mixed with higher quality Wc3 models is beyond me.

 

[Narrat0r]

Heh, it's great to see people on Hive will play a map for 10 minutes or so and judge it just by that alone. I bet neither of you even played it with other people, let alone set the lack of custom models aside.

Calling the map a mockery is really inexcusable, whether you apologize for it or not. Maps like DBZ Tribute pay little respect to the actual series and turn battles into "Whoever throws the first beam wins". This actually goes through the story and stays true to it.

I'd expect more from users with that amount of reputation than to test a map for such a brief amount of time, by themselves in a map that is clearly stated to need a full house, and to obsess about the lack of custom model WHEN I CLEARLY SAID I HAVE NO INTEREST IN EVER DOING SUCH A THING. Why you all love to see lacking anime models mixed with higher quality Wc3 models is beyond me.

While reputation is more than 0, it means as much as a bathing cream on the North Pole. I must say that I test all the maps on Garena multiplayer, as I did with this one. For 10 minutes, only 4 people stayed in and we played. Soon, as we saw the quality of the map, it ended. It's basically a copy of earliest DBZ maps and making them appropriate to FT. What IS right is "Whoever throws the first beam wins" thing. But that's a competitive multiplayer map, and this is a co-op linear-style RPG. OK if there is no models, if the map itself is good, then it's good. But here, spells are generic, terrain is flat and the gameplay is boring. Sorry, but I just have to say my opinion. Good luck in improving your map. I recommend putting models first. Nowadays they are source of DBZ WC3 maps.

 

[Septimus]

Heh, it's great to see people on Hive will play a map for 10 minutes or so and judge it just by that alone. I bet neither of you even played it with other people, let alone set the lack of custom models aside.

Calling the map a mockery is really inexcusable, whether you apologize for it or not. Maps like DBZ Tribute pay little respect to the actual series and turn battles into "Whoever throws the first beam wins". This actually goes through the story and stays true to it.

I'd expect more from users with that amount of reputation than to test a map for such a brief amount of time, by themselves in a map that is clearly stated to need a full house, and to obsess about the lack of custom model WHEN I CLEARLY SAID I HAVE NO INTEREST IN EVER DOING SUCH A THING. Why you all love to see lacking anime models mixed with higher quality Wc3 models is beyond me.

You don't need to play a map that long just to find out what's make it bad and if the map was good, people would continue to play it.

Infact, most of the map can be easily determine the quality of it even if they're play without full house.

As for the reputation, they got nothing to do than merely be a decoration.

 

[SSJ2-Trunks]

I am highly inclined to disagree. Determining whether or not a map is bad in the first ten minutes of playthrough is just ignorance. A good critic plays a game or watches a movie through its entirety, to get the full effect of the product and be able to properly rate it for what it truly is. I find it impossible to judge a map based on ten minutes of playing it. It's quite unfair to give a judgment based on that alone and it's just proof you aren't really giving it a chance. Sure, if you don't feel like continuing the map after that amount of time, feel free and stop. That is not what I mind at all. What I do mind is thinking you can pass accurate judgment within such a short period of time. Rating it a 1 after ten minutes is just a ridiculous thing to do. If you were to play it for a more respectable amount of time and THEN rate it a 1, I'd be completely fine with it and thank you for at least giving it a proper review. To be honest, if you rated it a 5 and only played ten minutes of it, I'd be just as displeased. Maybe a few maps you can get a feel for and get an idea what rating it deserves in only ten minutes, but not this one.

To even further elaborate, with such a map as this, you need to allow yourself to be immersed into the story. You can't do such a thing if you're too busy rolling your eyes at the lack of custom models. Speaking of which, do they really make the gameplay so much more enjoyable? I personally do not receive any more enjoyment playing as an out of place in Wc3 anime model of Goku than I do a paladin with his name on it. You're entitled to your own opinion, but I really do not believe it should be such a huge factor.

This map isn't meant to be like DBZ Tribute where you just go around killing whoever you want. You're supposed to experience how the fights really went down in the story. Future Trunks wasn't there to just blow away Raditz and Nappa. It was the combined efforts of Goku, Piccolo, and Gohan that defeated Raditz. Super Saiyan 2 wasn't required to defeat Frieza, as it sometimes turns out to be necessary in Tribute. To compare this map and Tribute is just ignorant as well, with all that said. They're two completely different maps.

Also, Septimus, your claim of a map's quality being able to be determined without a full house, when the map itself was CLEARLY made to be played with a full house, is just also ignorant, in my opinion. You cannot get far in the story with only controlling say Goku. Raditz will tear you to shreds. Teamwork is required to progress. Everyone needs to play their role in order for victory to be achieved. Not being able to progress without a full house does not show a lack of quality. It simply shows this map was made for the purpose of multiplayer.

To end my little rant, I'll just say this. I've hosted this publicly and have noticed a similar pattern to what I'm seeing on Hive. Those who left early in my map were the ones who left complaining, usually about the lack of custom models. The ones that stayed until the end 4/5 times complimented my work and really enjoyed the experience. When it was still in the testing stages, they were always eager to see more and wish I had more of the story finished. Now, I'm not automatically saying if you stayed until the end you'd feel the same, but it is far more likely than staying for ten minutes. The build up to the fights with Frieza and the fights themselves with him are the best in the map. With all of these complaints, I might spice up the fight with Raditz a bit and see how it's received. Though, in all honesty, it won't measure up to those with Frieza still. Need to stay until the end to see those.

For those who actually read my rant, I don't hold any hard feelings. Just disappointed with the quality of reviewers I'm seeing. A credible reviewer, in my opinion, is one who only rates products in their entirety. Not quitting after five minutes and calling it "A mockery". Thanks.

 

[Thrune]

Very fun map, though it can be tricky getting five not-incompetent people together - I'd suggest adding a way to do it with less, just because someone *is* going to end up dropping. Love the retro feel, though. Rating is a 4/5, though I admit I like this sort of map far more than most people.

I also want to add my voice to the map creator's: I do not like custom models. Even Territo's excellent Cell Saga would've been better with models that didn't sear my eyes like fire. I'd rather have something that doesn't look like Goku than something that does look like garbage.

 

[SSJ2-Trunks]

Ah, I was hoping you'd take a look at my map! I'm glad you were able to enjoy it for what it's meant to be. The map is meant to be challenging, so getting incompetent people is a problem at times. It's best to use easy mode or noob mode in those situations. Hm, perhaps I could add in commands to take control of players whom leave? I think that would be a good idea. Thanks for pointing that out.

Rather refreshing to see another map creator who agrees with me on the subject of custom models with DBZ maps. The models don't look very nice, nor do they blend in well with Warcraft 3. Territo's Cell Saga was definitely a great map. Luckily, I only saw it with models for Perfect Cell and Broly, so it didn't take away from it too much.

 

[Rwcw]

Fantastic

Just finished reading threw this thread; i have to wonder if some of the members are trolling...lol.

I found Before super sayian to be a very well made rpg map, it covers the entire dbz storyline very articulately. Game play is the core of this map (as it should be any map) and is not very forgiving too those who arn't keeping up on the ball. Definitely not a map for new players or people with poor micro; This map is meant for the strong hearted.

The fighting in this map is very riveting making a person really push them selfs too want to win, theres no bones thrown too you here! and its all for the better imo, having to earn that Killing blow or the objectives your given helps make this map alot less about grinding threw a rat race and more about a testament to skill and focus.

There are a few problems i see in this map though, the terrain could be more spiffy
and as one other person spoke of, it can be rather hard to find a group of people to game this style of map with, though i can see that going away as the maps been out longer and less and less people are starting fresh into it.

Final verdict: If you like a map thats challenging and has a well fleshed out storyline then this will be an instant classic for you. probable the best Dbz Rpg i've seen.

overall: 4/5 though i'm voting 5 cause some kid down voted the map giving it 1 for no reason other then it didn't have custom skins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(1!1!!11!!)

 

[sinder583]

Goku's power up and Hero abilities share the same hot key "O"

and ya adding in something so when a player leave you gain control will help cause looks like everyone has to be in use for some parts of the map to continue on,

i know in old maps i played that were like this people always left so you could never really finish it... also thoes old ones had fusion bugs were your guy get teleported to the item area and no were to go...

hope bugs like this ant in it not fully played it yet,

 

[Septimus]

I am highly inclined to disagree. Determining whether or not a map is bad in the first ten minutes of playthrough is just ignorance. A good critic plays a game or watches a movie through its entirety, to get the full effect of the product and be able to properly rate it for what it truly is. I find it impossible to judge a map based on ten minutes of playing it. It's quite unfair to give a judgment based on that alone and it's just proof you aren't really giving it a chance. Sure, if you don't feel like continuing the map after that amount of time, feel free and stop. That is not what I mind at all. What I do mind is thinking you can pass accurate judgment within such a short period of time. Rating it a 1 after ten minutes is just a ridiculous thing to do. If you were to play it for a more respectable amount of time and THEN rate it a 1, I'd be completely fine with it and thank you for at least giving it a proper review. To be honest, if you rated it a 5 and only played ten minutes of it, I'd be just as displeased. Maybe a few maps you can get a feel for and get an idea what rating it deserves in only ten minutes, but not this one.

A map with lot's of fundemental flaw are easily to be detected through a few minutes of check up.

To even further elaborate, with such a map as this, you need to allow yourself to be immersed into the story. You can't do such a thing if you're too busy rolling your eyes at the lack of custom models. Speaking of which, do they really make the gameplay so much more enjoyable? I personally do not receive any more enjoyment playing as an out of place in Wc3 anime model of Goku than I do a paladin with his name on it. You're entitled to your own opinion, but I really do not believe it should be such a huge factor.

I agree with that custom model do not increase the replayability values, but a map with poor quality in several other aspect does not make it any differ either.

Also, Septimus, your claim of a map's quality being able to be determined without a full house, when the map itself was CLEARLY made to be played with a full house, is just also ignorant, in my opinion. You cannot get far in the story with only controlling say Goku. Raditz will tear you to shreds. Teamwork is required to progress. Everyone needs to play their role in order for victory to be achieved. Not being able to progress without a full house does not show a lack of quality. It simply shows this map was made for the purpose of multiplayer.

A truly cooperative multiplayer map does not need to be at full house to prove it points of teamwork. Some map such as Impossible Boss Beta rely heavily on strategy and teamwork in order to progress and it was once proven to be possible to be accomplish even without the need to be play at full house.

To end my little rant, I'll just say this. I've hosted this publicly and have noticed a similar pattern to what I'm seeing on Hive. Those who left early in my map were the ones who left complaining, usually about the lack of custom models. The ones that stayed until the end 4/5 times complimented my work and really enjoyed the experience. When it was still in the testing stages, they were always eager to see more and wish I had more of the story finished. Now, I'm not automatically saying if you stayed until the end you'd feel the same, but it is far more likely than staying for ten minutes. The build up to the fights with Frieza and the fights themselves with him are the best in the map. With all of these complaints, I might spice up the fight with Raditz a bit and see how it's received. Though, in all honesty, it won't measure up to those with Frieza still. Need to stay until the end to see those.

The problem of your map does not limit to custom model.

For those who actually read my rant, I don't hold any hard feelings. Just disappointed with the quality of reviewers I'm seeing. A credible reviewer, in my opinion, is one who only rates products in their entirety. Not quitting after five minutes and calling it "A mockery". Thanks.

This section was entirely reserves for complete work, review can only be consider as bonus and it was the right of the user itself to give or not to give review.

If you want review, you're suppose to post it at map development and not at map section.

From what I seen at your map quality, your map would likely to be rejected by the staff as I seen a lot of flaw the moment I start to play.

Even though I truly agree that rating it unacceptable without proper elaboration is not the right choice, but it was their call. Of course, the elaboration could either be simple or long depends on the user itself.

First of all, your terrain was bland, boring, dull and uninteresting. It lack of tiles variation and proper destructible/doodad usage. Infact, it was a complete blah and unacceptable for an rpg style map to have such a poorly designated terrain.

Second is the file size, not using custom model was a wise choice as it saves space and make it user friendly when it comes to download. But seriously enough, a 1.7mb due to the execessive custom icon does not make it a wise decision either.

Most of the icon quality was terrible and you don't even used dis_btn icon of it, which show the lack of professionalism in your work. You don't use icon tool to make the layout of btn button either.

As you say, the custom model does not fit in. The same goes to custom icon as well. A goku icon with paladin as the model? It doesn't fit either.

Third, your hotkey was hell a mess as well. Why use the combination of user friendly hotkey and blizzard standard hotkey? There doesn't seems to have any hotkey for the learning ability and none of the learning ability have appropriate btn icon.

With the current map quality control, your map need to do drastic improvement or it would never been approve. The approval standard at hive was much stricter than it used to be, the poorly workout terrain, bad hotkey setup, huge file size due to unnecessary poor quality icon would just get it rejected.

 

[SSJ2-Trunks]

You have some valid points, but I still disagree with you in others. For the parts you are valid with, I thank you for your constructive criticism.

I agree with: Your point about the icons. I didn't do the most fantastic job and I suppose I could cut them out to reduce the file size. To be honest, the majority of these icons I made years ago and only when I became more knowledgeable did I learn about dis_btn. Such a thing doesn't bother me, personally, nor many other people I've encountered. Though, removing them won't really hurt anything, either. So I likely will. (For the record, though, there are also many sound clips thrown in that take up space as well. I can tell you never made it to them, so..Those I will not remove, because not many DBZ maps really make use of them.)

My terrain isn't amazing, I admit that, I should probably spruce it up a bit. Though "blah" and "unacceptable" is a bit of an exaggeration. "Bland" sums it up a tad better. The problem with terrain is trying to replicate the scenery from the DBZ fights, though, it's something I struggle with more than anything else. There usually isn't anything amazing to look at in the battle sites from the series, so I tried to keep it accurate. Not to make an excuse for myself, but honestly..when it comes to battles like against Recoome and Frieza, you'll be a bit too occupied fighting for your life than to inspect the terrain. Although, again, this is another area I do not mind improving.

The hotkeys can use some work. I could easily fix it up in a matter of minutes, though. I could release that in the next version without a hitch.

I disagree with: That you can rate a map a 1 and call it unplayable due to the factors of terrain, icons without dis_btn, and scattered hotkeys. With all of the positive features of my map, it surely deserves at least a 2. A 1 is just, as I've said earlier, being rather ignorant and even a bit spiteful in reference to flaws that do not warrant such a rating. I've seen far worse maps on hive with so much less effort put in that have received higher than 1.

That my map is incomplete. It's not. The main storyline of the map is finished. All that is left to do is add in optional sagas and a lot of polishing. Sorry, but you don't get to tell me what is complete and what is not. Keep your opinion an opinion, please.

Another invalid point of yours is your comparison to Impossible Bosses. This is not the same type of map. In my map, each role needs to be filled for the story, just as in DBZ. Would Gohan have survived if Vegeta had not shown up to Namek? No, he would die and the story would end from there. Goku would have no rejuvenation chamber usage and would die by Frieza. The story ends. Just as the map will end if there is no Vegeta. I told you, this map is meant to be accurate. The most I will do is add in a command to be granted unit control from leavers/empty slots. It takes a bit away from the map to have to control multiple characters, but ah well. Whatever you guys want to do. Though, just because the command isn't there yet, it doesn't classify the map as horrible.

 

[Septimus]

I agree with: Your point about the icons. I didn't do the most fantastic job and I suppose I could cut them out to reduce the file size. To be honest, the majority of these icons I made years ago and only when I became more knowledgeable did I learn about dis_btn. Such a thing doesn't bother me, personally, nor many other people I've encountered. Though, removing them won't really hurt anything, either. So I likely will. (For the record, though, there are also many sound clips thrown in that take up space as well. I can tell you never made it to them, so..Those I will not remove, because not many DBZ maps really make use of them.)

A good quality work would not exclude any other aspect such as dis_btn and appropriate hotkey. Any map that're lack of proper workout at both of this aspect show the lack of incentive and motivation in development of the map work.

It just like scripting an GUI/JASS that work out the way you want, but lack of efficiency.

You got to prove to people that you're really serious in your work or else it would just discourage user from it.

My terrain isn't amazing, I admit that, I should probably spruce it up a bit. Though "blah" and "unacceptable" is a bit of an exaggeration. "Bland" sums it up a tad better. The problem with terrain is trying to replicate the scenery from the DBZ fights, though, it's something I struggle with more than anything else. There usually isn't anything amazing to look at in the battle sites from the series, so I tried to keep it accurate. Not to make an excuse for myself, but honestly..when it comes to battles like against Recoome and Frieza, you'll be a bit too occupied fighting for your life than to inspect the terrain. Although, again, this is another area I do not mind improving.

It definitely cannot be consider as bland. I have seen a lacking standard terrain that are far better than that. What I seen over this map was just a random destructible/doodad placement with little to none appropriate tileset and height variaton setup.

If you cannot make an decent terrain, you're suppose to get help instead of leaving it that way. A good map would vow the heart of the player in every aspect and terrain are not an aspect that could be exclude most of the time especially for rpg generic map.

It just like you're trying to vow the heart of the judge in an audition and if you failed, you're as good as getting yourself kick off.

For an rpg map not to have at least an decent terrain, it certainly isn't acceptable.

That you can rate a map a 1 and call it unplayable due to the factors of terrain, icons without dis_btn, and scattered hotkeys. With all of the positive features of my map, it surely deserves at least a 2. A 1 is just, as I've said earlier, being rather ignorant and even a bit spiteful in reference to flaws that do not warrant such a rating. I've seen far worse maps on hive with so much less effort put in that have received higher than 1.

As I have say, the hiveworkshop are not like epicwar where it accept all kind of map. To top up with, the approval standard at hive was much higher than it used to be in the past ever since the map moderation team was reformed.

If you view approve resources based on their date, the quality of the map that are recently approve are far much better than those in the past. At the past, it was far lenient and thus it isn't an suprise to see majority of the poor quality work was approve.

It is fortunate that hiveworkshop does not adopt wc3c standard when it comes into map approval, you would definitely been suprise that even the most well develop work would be rejected over there.

That my map is incomplete. It's not. The main storyline of the map is finished. All that is left to do is add in optional sagas and a lot of polishing. Sorry, but you don't get to tell me what is complete and what is not. Keep your opinion an opinion, please.

You map was indeed incomplete, more than what you think you had accomplish. You can choose to ignore what I had say, but the final decision would be at moderator where they could choose to either reject and neither approve your work.

As you progress in getting more indepth knowledge of map development, you would notice more and more skill you're lacking and more of what it takes for a map to get to the right standard till one day where you look back at your old work, you would slap your forehead and thinking why I never do the work the better way it suppose to do so right now.