Custom maps: where is the originality?

[DocDude]

ORPG
Hero defence
Survivel
AOS
Tower Defence
Other Video Game-likes

i think we all know these maps very well, so why the fuck people keep making them?!
there are like milion versions and copys to every map people ever played and its just fucking annoying. where is the originality?
more than half of the people here just wake up at the morning and say to themselves "wow, i want to make a map just like the one i played last night"
at best they make a better version of that map, but most of the times they just do execlty the same or even worse maps. and its just a waste of time and skills.

i was playing warcraft servel years back and remeberd all the cool maps there are. latly i started playing agien and was just dissepointed:
almost every fucking map i saw was some version of the maps i played back then, people dont have new ideas, and anyway not all the old ones are that good.

so what do you say, what the fuck is happening?

 

[Mechanical Man]

Still I prefer to play well made un-original map than poorly executed original map. Also in so called un-original map is more chance it will contain an AI.

 

[DarkAngelAzazel]

Hmmm I understand you :/

Maps which highly disappoint me are those 1 million footy versions and seelenjagd :/

But some people always try to create new map ideas :/

I am just trying a new idea and I latly played a cool game called
"Art of defense"

I loved the idea of that map It's normal wc3 melee with creeps spawning and coming to destroy your base.

 

[DocDude]

i'm a kind of person that once he sees most of the game and played it for a while he gets bored. that means that even if a new version comes out with "A better cooking system and more monsters!" im not falling inlove with the game all over agein.

copys and reworks tend to work on the maps flaws and had some small features here and there, but they dont make the map all new and exiting.

there are un-original maps that are just so much better then the original, they are good, but still not all the maps are like these.

but the question is: do you prefer well made original maps or well made un-originals?

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Maybe they should make some map called Election Day where players will play as different political members and you're supposed to do stuff while the other players look and try to elect you, then you rule the country if you get elected and you can do stuff like in Real Life... Just a random suggestion...

 

[syltman]

Maybe becouse they liked the original and want to create something similar.

 

[Mechanical Man]

The fact is that most new ideas are just lame. They might sound good, but "lol" ideas are just not really to be implemented.

 

[DocDude]

so you say people are too stupid to think about a good idea themselvs so they just copy from other maps?

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Best way to get more ideas is if you bribe them lol... Or do the method of encouragement...

 

[DocDude]

if the hive will have contests about "The Best Original Map" insted of "Best DT/Hero Defence/The usual shit" it will be a good idea.

and miss foxy can do a sexual encouragment campiegn and people will have all the motivetion to make original maps

 

[Miss_Foxy]

... I don't want you to get banned or whatsoever but... Isn't that just harassment?

 

[DocDude]

i have no idea but i was just joking, if you feel offended you can tell me or report the admins and i will not do it agien ^^

 

[Miss_Foxy]

I won't report anyone though, spoils the fun, so I'll just erm... Punch you on your signature... =) Okay back to topic, maybe it's because some people are given inspiration by the various maps hosted and they just express their imaginations in the form of that type of map...

 

[DocDude]

sounds like a pretty narrow imagination to me.
and most of these maps are not diffrent enough from the original to make the copy-pasting right.

 

[Ravager]

One thing i have to say is, why is it that people copy games just to make a map about them...Warcraft 3 starcraft, Warcraft 3 warhammer, warcraft 3 diablo, warcraft 3 WoW, That and the dota copies, put that in with the thousand ORPGs that only have a different storyline and the same gameplay.
I dont have anything against this...its just un-creative in my opinion.

 

[nomadian]

I think:
(1) There are original maps on here and epicwar, but because they're not popular formats (TD, footman, etc) then they don't get played.
(2) Though also I think stretching the appeal of a RTS engine, maybe the number of games, or more importantly, the appealibility of games using a RTS engine is perhaps more limited than thought. I mean you aren't going to get a platformer on this, but someone will try make one- noone will play them when they can play the real thing and have a much better all-round engine for that purpose.
(3) I could be very wrong on (2)

{EDIT}
although here's a question why are there so few turn-based games? I made one and I could see there could be an appeal there but it needs one of these A+ WC3 modmakers to have a go at one.

 

[DocDude]

if maps will be done right they will be fun and people will play it.

not all RTS based maps have to give you a hero to fight agienst hordes of creeps, or building towers to not allow creeps in your base.
people can think about stuff and they can also make it good.

 

[El_Suave]

I agree with you DocDude. I remember playing wc3 way back a few years ago and remembered seeing all the amazing maps. I'm actually eager to recreate this one map that was so much fun but it was lost in time.

The thing about the current mods people are making, they are just too easy. The other being that they are just bootleg clones of the original. I swear I think I've played 5 different versions/spinoffs of Hero Line Wars Lition.

 

[WhitePhoenix]

The problem is all the new cool ideas are too demanding on the players connection to each other. Take Combat Zone, and many others. Great and original games are plentiful, but a lot of people hate to play them because the the 2 seconds of delay or consistent lag spikes, whereas the formats that are popular (TD's, AoS, and ORPGs) are less demanding, in fact in some of the formats (excluding AoS's) you can get along just fine with 2 seconds of delay.

"action" maps are just not something you get to see a lot on warcraft 3 were everyone is happy, and that's where all the originality flocks too, "action" or for lack of a better word "FUN" maps.

 

[DocDude]

you say that original maps tend to lag more? thats becouse skilled and exipirenced mappers prefer to stick to the "working" formula of known maps styles?

wc3 map styels are hardly even styles, they are so narrow that they just look like clones. i mean, AoS, where can you go with it? adding some boss creeps? having equipment system? generic heroes? its still exactly the same.
not like the vidoe games ganers like "RTS" or "RPG" that allows you tons of place for changes.

 

[noob134]

I think its ok to make unoriginal maps if you are a beginner, so you can get some experience making maps.

 

[syltman]

There isn't much else too do also without being really good at mapping and the people who are that usually don't have the time/other things

 

[Hayato_Azra]

Why AOS: 1 word: DOTA
´nuff said
Why footman : Because they think that using MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF UNITS THAT DO 99999 DAMAGE is cool.
Why arenas: same as footman, just change the " MILLIONS AND MILLIONS " for " A HERO "
Why TD: because they are easy to make
Why generic RPG where you pick a generic class and kill generic creeps with no history:
Because they think is cool to make a brainless RPG.

The problem with this, is that the masses keep playing them. They will keep playing this kinds of maps until..they find ANOTHER popular map.

 

[Rui]

There is no problem in copying a concept if you're trying to improve it. I mean, there are maps with great concepts, but they usually get ruined by an egocentric creator who believes only he is right and only he knows what is best for the map. The majority of the creators don't listen to good advices.What fails in most AoS maps, for instance? The creators throw in a lot of heroes they happened to think about, but without carefully planning each hero to be balanced with all others. When they realize it, it is too late and the map is already too hard to balance because there are lots of heroes. Changing this little thing on one of them causes him to be imbalanced with another two, changing those two causes them to ruin the balance for all others, and so on...Of course you can decide you'll start over, but most creators just delve deeper and deeper into the ground, deaf to everything and everyone. My favorite example is probably "Azeroth Wars". It is a map that resembles the Third War on our well-known Warcraft world, Azeroth. It is hard to tell how the map got to the point it is now, but I assume one day someone thought of this cool feature that had severe consequences. A controversial ability comes right to mind: an ability of the Undead that gives a 1% chance to turn an enemy Human unit to a Zombie on an attack (a passive Dark Conversion, in short). Those of you who have played the map know you don't get to control a group of twelve units with heroes included; you get to control a swarm of them. For that reason, 1% chance on an attack is not as small as it might sound.To fix this, the authors of the map decided to keep increasing this stat, adding that other ability, or creating some crazy upgrade. Constantly. Hence the endless cycle I was talking about earlier.One day, one of these players who keeps getting buffs and nerfs decides to visit another player that he rarely meets. The result? One of them is imbalanced and one of them is getting squashed. This is because the default units in Warcraft III (obviously used in this game) are overall decently balanced, and most creators, thinking that melee games are those boring normal games lacking strategy or balance because they obviously don't dominate it, make Object Data changes without understanding what they are actually doing, ending up with major screw-ups.You can attempt to refute me, but the fact is that I still remember my heroes in this game being killed by over 12 Chaplains casting Firebolt. It is also important to mention that in Blizzard's original data these units start with full mana, unlike the normal melee casters (such as Priests and Sorceresses), a bug that I believe still exists in the map. Knowing that the Chaplain has 400 mana and the Firebolt costs only 75, possessing a cooldown of 8 seconds and a stun duration on heroes of 1 or 2 seconds, the result is, I believe, most predictable.
But there's also the community factor. The majority of the people actually enjoy these imbalanced maps. So what to do? We create our own map. With the same concept, but aiming for a more stable gameplay, and hope that at least those who are unhappy as we are enjoy our work. Yet again, most authors are not successful. For example, I have yet to see a map resembling "Azeroth Wars" that doesn't lag and actually has a balanced gameplay. "War of the Third Age" was an excellent contestant for "Battle for Middle Earth", but most people disliked it because of the slow-paced gameplay. I imagine the Nazgûl's spells of "Battle for Middle Earth", in which we can find three Carrion Swarms, three Frost Novas, two War Stomps, a Death Coil and two Storm Bolts (or rather, spells based off them), among others, also contributed a lot for this pick of the most.
Personally, my motivation to make a map using a concept that's already being used are the hard-headed authors. Knowing that the map I'm playing is imbalanced and that such fact is never going to change gives me inspiration to actually make my own maps, even if they're not original. If it's for the better, why not? Even if it shares the same gameplay method, the map will nearly always be unique in its own way.

 

[Karawasa]

Why TD: because they are easy to make

They are easy to make, only if you're aiming for crap quality. But then, so is every other type of map...

 

[Hayato_Azra]

They are easy to make, only if you're aiming for crap quality. But then, so is every other type of map...

Indeed... Lets just mention 1 dota clone that doesn´t suck. I dare everyone to it.

There are good TD´s out there, yes, but the good maps are often ignored.

 

[MultiGod]

you should know, that maps that have original idea(its not AoS,HD,TD,HS,etc) are in the other section.

 

[Hayato_Azra]

you should know, that maps that have original idea(its not AoS,HD,TD,HS,etc) are in the other section.

Im talking about the massive public.

 

[Dr Super Good]

where is the originality?

It ran dry after 6 years of 1000s of people modding the game. 90% of the origanality has been used up so it is near impossiable to make something without someone else having done something simlar.

 

[Hayato_Azra]

It ran dry after 6 years of 1000s of people modding the game. 90% of the origanality has been used up so it is near impossiable to make something without someone else having done something simlar.

That´s really pragmatic.
There ARE ideas. Lets say a map designer that has a revolutionary idea, finds that he sucks at triggers, jass, GUI, or making models, or skins. And gets totally ignored by these facts in forums or such, hence, no one helps him with his proyect and thus he´s unable to continue it nor finish it because of the already mentioned facts. There´s a lot of creative people who cant find a mature and reasonable team to develop a serius map or campaign. That´s why we cant see new or better ideas; because most designers aren´t taken seriusly.
And there´s a lot of people who thinks that with proggraming alone cute codes and good skills can make by themselves a good map without thinking on the artistic or creative aspect or the gameplay/fun factor because "people doesn´t care about that anyways" "they just want to see something impressive"

Its more accurate to say that there are no maps. But there are ideas out there, they just can´t get them done.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

It's hard to follow your post, Rui '^_^

Yeah, what people don't realize is that not only maps but even many things in life are done by so many, that there is nothing original left. Is this plagiarism? No it isn't. I've had so many cases of thinking the same as someone else right at the same moment. People can think of the same idea while in different parts of the world and start the map even at the same moment!

 

[Rui]

What do you find hard to follow in my post? My point was simply that maps get ruined by egocentric creators, and making our own is alright, even if we use the same gameplay method. I provided a few examples.

 

[Eleandor]

It's the same thing like buying crysis. It's just like the average shooter but with better graphics. Oh, right, you get to play some *special* guy like in so many other shooters out there. That raises the question: where are the original games?

The answer is: game developers who have made it are less likely to develop a game with innovating gameplay. They get a lot of money for developing the game, but it's simply safer to stick to game genres that have proven to sell well. Look at Blizzard, even they are doing it. Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 may look awesome and have new features, but they're still games *like* diablo 2 and *like* starcraft 1. There's nothing wrong with that, I'll probably buy SC2. But when you're a recognised developer, you simply don't take the risk to create an innovating game that may sell really badly. Sequels (generalised: games of the same genre) sell. Innovative games may not sell.

Similarly: everyone plays dota. That's the reason there are so many aos clones out there. Or any popular map genre for that matter.

There are still innovating games being made, but most of them are being made by indies. People with a low budget, or no budget at all. They usually can't hire professional 3D artists. They usually have a job and are creating the game in their spare time. They simply don't have the resources to make the game look as good as what people are expecting today.

One thing i have to say is, why is it that people copy games just to make a map about them...Warcraft 3 starcraft, Warcraft 3 warhammer, warcraft 3 diablo, warcraft 3 WoW, That and the dota copies, put that in with the thousand ORPGs that only have a different storyline and the same gameplay.
I dont have anything against this...its just un-creative in my opinion.

I agree. But there are a few differences between recreating a game and making "just another aos".
1) It's a tribute to a game that people love. Tributes are definitely a good reason.
2) In the case of Diablo 3: warcraft: the game isn't out yet. It's a mod to entertain people while the real game is being developed.
3) There's usually at least a little twist, such as changing the balance a bit. Or being free, rather than paying monthly fees
4) In the case of WoW: with cataclysm being made, war3:wow will look different than wow.

 

[Hayato_Azra]

Well, but this is not a matter of sequels, but people using proven formulas instead of doing something original. And think about it; Do we lose money or such by creating a innovative map? The most we can lose is our free time in making it, but we create it and play it for fun, so whats the matter?
I cant see anything wrong with improving a map, but create a TOTAL COPY with other heroes is just stupid, and only lazy or uncreative people do such things, in my humble opinion.
Its better to take risks with this, the people won´t find a copy map "outstanding" either anyways...

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

An AOS is relatively simple to make compared to most other game types. It's also very accessible to players, as it doesn't require you to grind 8 hours a day to be competitive *cough* starcraft *cough*.

Starcraft 1 was so huge fans are demanding a number 2. Diablo 2 was so huge fans are demanding a Diablo 3. You don't hear anyone demanding Halo 4 do you? Blizzard will have to take a risk eventually, and I'm sure it will be good when they finally do.

 

[Hayato_Azra]

You don't hear anyone demanding Halo 4 do you? .

Maybe im a little off topic, but halo 3 ended the halo history. In response to fans, they made Halo Wars, they said that they WONT make a halo 4.
Just saying...

 

[Karawasa]

There ARE ideas. Lets say a map designer that has a revolutionary idea, finds that he sucks at triggers, jass, GUI, or making models, or skins. And gets totally ignored by these facts in forums or such, hence, no one helps him with his proyect and thus he´s unable to continue it nor finish it because of the already mentioned facts. There´s a lot of creative people who cant find a mature and reasonable team to develop a serius map or campaign. That´s why we cant see new or better ideas; because most designers aren´t taken seriusly.

I hope this isn't your intention, but you come across as advocating for "creative" people trying to find "teams" to do everything for them. That's a pretty lame concept. I don't feel sorry for these "creative" people who have no skills whatsoever except being creative.

Now assuming that wasn't your intention, there are simply not enough mature and reasonable people to go around. If every nobody with a "creative" idea was to be taken seriously, we'd have a serious shortage of people to code, terrain, and object edit. I consider models, skins, and sounds as "fluff" and completely unnecessary for a map by the way.

There are a ton of reasons why people don't sign onto a team which has a "creative nobody" leader. The main one is follow through. How many projects have you seen fail because the leader got bored and decided to try another "creative" idea? Well, that sure as hell pisses off anyone who contributed work for that project, and I bet you they won't touch anything unless they know the guy is serious.

 

[bboy-tiger-]

I want original !! Only few of those... btw we're makin original idea. Not some or a mix of few types, so its quite good idea. So I hope people will see something new and not DotA . In last 6 months I played only like 2-3 good maps or original maps...

BTW those people with original ideas are probbly best members in teams... those who create stuff are just, "needed" and those who have original ideas are "a must" .

 

[Hayato_Azra]

I hope this isn't your intention, but you come across as advocating for "creative" people trying to find "teams" to do everything for them. That's a pretty lame concept. I don't feel sorry for these "creative" people who have no skills whatsoever except being creative.

I was talking about serius people with ideas who can, for example ,do good terrain, create good and balanced heroes, and design a good gameplay but they dont work with Jass or similar, or they just dont want to be modelers or such, not unuseful jerks with no point in life.

Now assuming that wasn't your intention, there are simply not enough mature and reasonable people to go around. If every nobody with a "creative" idea was to be taken seriously, we'd have a serious shortage of people to code, terrain, and object edit.

Sorry but your concept os designer is really limited and just gives me the reason when i say that most of the people who can code, thinks that can make a good map with no ideas and cute programming.

I consider models, skins, and sounds as "fluff" and completely unnecessary for a map by the way.

So, the half of the hiveworkshop is "fluff" for you ?
Yes, there´s enough content in wc3 already. But why should we limit our proyects to that ? At least single player proyects, like campaings can be improved with some good view, ambient, and others, you know, a history depends a lot on ambient, and shows how much effort the creators put in their campaign to reach a greater quality level.

There are a ton of reasons why people don't sign onto a team which has a "creative nobody" leader. The main one is follow through. How many projects have you seen fail because the leader got bored and decided to try another "creative" idea? Well, that sure as hell pisses off anyone who contributed work for that project, and I bet you they won't touch anything unless they know the guy is serious.

To be honest, i´ve seen proyects with the "last one standing" as, in fact, the designer. While the spellmakers or coders are just a group of inmature fatasses, and "this" designer just finished the entire map by himself, at the point when he only needs skills and some triggers to start out the map, and he finds out that "Oh surprise" the other guys did nothing in their time. Not even a single skill.
Or start a huge proyect, like a mod to the wc3 would be, and his lead C++ coder wants to fill it with wow models and doesn´t want a history where "X" character dies and other childish things, and trows a tantrum about how stupid everyone is, and why the designer, who just did and tested and balanced 4 new races to add, is a "guy who can´t be reasoned with"



Your concept of designer is some sort of tiranic asshole, or at least, you point that in your post.
Well, just no.

 

[Karawasa]

I was talking about serius people with ideas who can, for example ,do good terrain, create good and balanced heroes, and design a good gameplay but they dont work with Jass or similar, or they just dont want to be modelers or such, not unuseful jerks with no point in life.

You'd be surprised how many people come along with little to no skill, but some "great" idea and look for a team to make the map for them. But, I figured this wasn't really your intention and I made that clear in my post.

Sorry but your concept os designer is really limited and just gives me the reason when i say that most of the people who can code, thinks that can make a good map with no ideas and cute programming.

When did I limit it to coding only? I'm pretty sure I mentioned terrain and object edits too. My opinion is that if you can't do one of these three things (code, terrain, object edit) then you suck! All three are necessary, so someone who can only code won't get very far.

So, the half of the hiveworkshop is "fluff" for you ?

Yes.

Yes, there´s enough content in wc3 already. But why should we limit our proyects to that ? At least single player proyects, like campaings can be improved with some good view, ambient, and others, you know, a history depends a lot on ambient, and shows how much effort the creators put in their campaign to reach a greater quality level.

But the vast majority (and I mean vast) of content is multiplayer, so I'm not really paying attention to the very small fraction of singleplayer content. In singleplayer the rules are different. You already mentioned my argument, in multiplayer there is enough content in WC3 that bloating your map size isn't justified.

To be honest, i´ve seen proyects with the "last one standing" as, in fact, the designer. While the spellmakers or coders are just a group of inmature fatasses, and "this" designer just finished the entire map by himself, at the point when he only needs skills and some triggers to start out the map, and he finds out that "Oh surprise" the other guys did nothing in their time. Not even a single skill.
Or start a huge proyect, like a mod to the wc3 would be, and his lead C++ coder wants to fill it with wow models and doesn´t want a history where "X" character dies and other childish things, and trows a tantrum about how stupid everyone is, and why the designer, who just did and tested and balanced 4 new races to add, is a "guy who can´t be reasoned with"

If you want to lead, you need to be able to identify good talent. I blame no one but the design guy in your scenarios for not figuring out who he is working with. If you manage to get to the end of the map, and then figure out the code guy did nothing, you suck!

You're presenting anecdotal evidence, just like I was. I strongly feel there are more "great idea" people who drop out and ruin the project than "hired hands" people who fail to do their job. Either way, we can agree that both are bad.

Your concept of designer is some sort of tiranic asshole, or at least, you point that in your post.
Well, just no.

No, that's not my idea. I do consider the "idea" guy to be the leader, but that's about it. I'm not sure where you got tyrannic asshole from, perhaps you could point me in that direction?

 

[Hayato_Azra]

You'd be surprised how many people come along with little to no skill, but some "great" idea and look for a team to make the map for them. But, I figured this wasn't really your intention and I made that clear in my post.

You're presenting anecdotal evidence, just like I was. I strongly feel there are more "great idea" people who drop out and ruin the project than "hired hands" people who fail to do their job. Either way, we can agree that both are bad.

Of course. All depends in the kind of person.

No, that's not my idea. I do consider the "idea" guy to be the leader, but that's about it. I'm not sure where you got tyrannic asshole from, perhaps you could point me in that direction?

Sounded like that when you said :

(...)"creative" people trying to find "teams" to do everything for them. I don't feel sorry for these "creative" people who have no skills whatsoever except being creative.

When did I limit it to coding only? I'm pretty sure I mentioned terrain and object edits too. My opinion is that if you can't do one of these three things (code, terrain, object edit) then you suck! All three are necessary, so someone who can only code won't get very far.

You´d be surprised...

But the vast majority (and I mean vast) of content is multiplayer, so I'm not really paying attention to the very small fraction of singleplayer content. In singleplayer the rules are different. You already mentioned my argument, in multiplayer there is enough content in WC3 that bloating your map size isn't justified.

One thing that i dont like from WC ORPGS is that they go with a multiplayer map ONLY. Focusing only in " pick a class, go kill mobs " instead of a good history, or a good storytelling. Of course, in multiplayer, gameplay and size is priority, but RPGS MUST have a good history and storytelling (of course, in a TD, or similar maps, is a little stupid to overuse custom content). Also ,to stick with the post, we could see more original ideas if more people did single player campaigns/proyects, and then adapt them to multiplayer (some sort of spin-off, maybe? ) The best of both worlds, original ideas, and proven formulas, dont you think?

If you want to lead, you need to be able to identify good talent. I blame no one but the design guy in your scenarios for not figuring out who he is working with. If you manage to get to the end of the map, and then figure out the code guy did nothing, you suck!

I was young back then... in some sort of way, yes, you are rigth. But i didn´t expect the second scenario, seriusly. (True history, chap) but they weren´t unuseful people. Just childish, but they had good skill with programming.


But then again, all depends on the kind of person...

PD: why are you so cruel to the hive ?

 

[DocDude]

Saying that models, skins etc are fluff dosnt mean that fluff is bad and useless (atleast thats what i think).

Im perssonaly working on my original idea (can see at sig), i'm a pretty decent triggerer and i tried to find a team in the hive and it didnt worked out very well.
just like you said, i found lazy and incompetent people mostly and end up doing most thigns myself. and its not becouse i had million people wanting to work with me and i just choose the worst of them, its just that (i think) people want to see you have tons of rep or a "stick to things that already work" map.