Crusader's Crucify

[TooMuch]

I want to make three points about the crusaders crucify. This is to you Zwieb. btw i didnt know exactly where to put this...

1. I understand the concept of a t-shaped aoe ability because it goes with the name. But the fact that it doesn't hit all the enemies around you make it a not so reliant form of aoe. especially since its the only aoe the crusader has right now.

2. Also, why does it shrink? Your only aoe just becamed more unreliable when you need to get a better hit on the ranged mobs or so. I would suggest that it should be a constant circle effect with the same animation.

3. Now some of you may say that you have to use it strategically/positional. But not all the time the mobs are in a perfect t-shape group or even in the appropiate areas. especially since you have to click a creep to activate it and hopefully your guy is facing the right way when you do so.

Now compared to the berserker's aoe abilities, crucify is really not that great. Both of the serker's aoe are a wide circle affect that's practically almost instant. The crusader's crucify is only faster with the appropiate amount of haste. As a tank class, the crusader should have at least two solid aoe abilites. Now I've seen the upcoming shield throw spell. And well I have no details about it. But i would like to suggest that it be a guarantee aoe around the crusader if possible.

Something to compete with the zerkers aoe at least. So basically make it a circle of effect that doesnt have to shrink.
I know im asking that you change the ability around. And I dont know how you and others will react to this post. But my suggestion is to just make crucify a better aoe ability that can hit all the enemies around you and not miss the ones right by you hiding in the corners.

 

[GasQueen]

For 1, 2 and 3: I think it's part of the challenge. Whereas Berserkers have to watch out for not dying, when playing as a Crusader you have to watch out for aggroing and, well; tanking. From my point of view, I believe if Crusaders had massive AoE skills would just be a "tank and spank" thing.

 

[TooMuch]

hmm i understand the challenge concept. But more over, i would just like to see the guys standing next to me(on the inside corners of the t-shape) get hit by the ability.

If anything, the crusader should have an onboard cleave ability. seeming how he cant have a shield with a two hand and no extra defensive offhand.

At this point im suggesting ideas. whether you guys change crucify or not, i just would like to see the crusader with more actual tank abilities and not just item dependent/health tank tactic. if anything, tanks right now in gaias are just aggro keepers and not actual tanks.

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

This has also annoyed me. I believe crucify should have a small circular aoe superimposed on the current shape. The shrinking cross concept is totally fine imo it just means u have to think about placement against ranged mobs, however, not hitting melee mobs directly next to u because they are a PIXEL in the wrong direction is just silly. The small circular aoe should be just enough to hit only whatever is directly next to you - even if its only for one blast.

I'm sure zwieb has discussed the over-effectiveness of zerker skills. They don't really have much means to control their threat so that indirectly limits their skillset.

 

[Malygos10]

This has also annoyed me. I believe crucify should have a small circular aoe superimposed on the current shape. The shrinking cross concept is totally fine imo it just means u have to think about placement against ranged mobs, however, not hitting melee mobs directly next to u because they are a PIXEL in the wrong direction is just silly. The small circular aoe should be just enough to hit only whatever is directly next to you - even if its only for one blast.

I'm sure zwieb has discussed the over-effectiveness of zerker skills. They don't really have much means to control their threat so that indirectly limits their skillset.

Wow there... Could you elaborate on your last point, cause it's kinda hard to understand what you mean, and it could be taken in lots of different ways.

Besides, crucify might have its flaws but I'd say it's fairly balanced (maybe just needs a little tweaking). Sure, sometimes the crusaders I play with have a hard time hitting targets with crucify too, but they manage at keeping aggro and most importantly TANKING (they're not just there to keep aggro). And to be honest, I had a harder time controlling my threat lvl as a berserker

 

[Malygos10]

hmm i understand the challenge concept. But more over, i would just like to see the guys standing next to me(on the inside corners of the t-shape) get hit by the ability.

If anything, the crusader should have an onboard cleave ability. seeming how he cant have a shield with a two hand and no extra defensive offhand.

At this point im suggesting ideas. whether you guys change crucify or not, i just would like to see the crusader with more actual tank abilities and not just item dependent/health tank tactic. if anything, tanks right now in gaias are just aggro keepers and not actual tanks.

You're kidding right? Not actual tanks? Dude, anyone can keep aggro, and I mean ANYONE, but can they tank it as well as crusaders? I can honestly say that alch will kill my fully tank equipped zerk in maybe 4-5 hits, while you know how many hits it would take to kill a fully equipped crusader.

I won't say anything else, just let you think over the absurdity of your statement.

 

[muzzel]

I wrote crucify back then and i added the shrinking just because i thought it looked cool. But i think it makes sense that enemies closer to the caster get more damage (hit more often), it requires more attention to get higher efficienty out of the spell.
Same thing with the t-shaped damage area, this was derived from the shape of the visual effect and intended by Zwiebel. Again this makes using the spell more challenging.

Crucify is not your only aggro spell and if you miss a few mobs you can attack them, taunt them of hit them with some other spell.

If you think Crucify is too weak there is always the option to increase its area of effect or its damage to improve its overall efficiency.
But i dont think its necessary to take away the t-shape or the shrinking.

 

[TooMuch]

You're kidding right? Not actual tanks? Dude, anyone can keep aggro, and I mean ANYONE, but can they tank it as well as crusaders? I can honestly say that alch will kill my fully tank equipped zerk in maybe 4-5 hits, while you know how many hits it would take to kill a fully equipped crusader.

I won't say anything else, just let you think over the absurdity of your statement.

Are you kidding dude? Dont be stupid. The only reason why a fully tank crusader could take a couple more hits is because of the high health they acquire. ofc the bonus armor, and higher evasion is a considerable factor for anyone tanking. besides dude, if your "fully" tanked equipped berserker died that fast then why play a tanking serker?

If the difference is that huge, why are there even tanking serkers then? the stupidity of your statement is overwhelming. Trying to talk down my claim with that sentence was absurb in and of itself.

 

[TooMuch]

I wrote crucify back then and i added the shrinking just because i thought it looked cool. But i think it makes sense that enemies closer to the caster get more damage (hit more often), it requires more attention to get higher efficienty out of the spell.
Same thing with the t-shaped damage area, this was derived from the shape of the visual effect and intended by Zwiebel. Again this makes using the spell more challenging.

Crucify is not your only aggro spell and if you miss a few mobs you can attack them, taunt them of hit them with some other spell.

If you think Crucify is too weak there is always the option to increase its area of effect or its damage to improve its overall efficiency.
But i dont think its necessary to take away the t-shape or the shrinking.

well muzzel like i said before, i understand the challenging part of crucify. and yeah i know i can always get to the others i dont hit. Just it always annoyed me to see it not hit the melee guys all around you. other rpgs always gave the tanks some sort of cleave or circular aoe. even if it was small. however, if you guys want to leave it that way, thats fine then. Not my game afterall X_X

oh and i wasnt complaining about aggro, i was talking about the mechanics of crucify. so i wasnt saying crucify was weak. just an abnormal aoe spell. but hey, stuff like that is what makes this game more unique.

 

[LittleTim]

or you dudes can make it easyer to click the bm nets and spiders and garg beatles of death i find it very hard to click them

 

[doubtful]

or you dudes can make it easyer to click the bm nets and spiders and garg beatles of death i find it very hard to click them

true. especially the webs when there are already too many targets at the same place.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Unfortunately, there is no way to change the click-collision shapes of units without editing the models itself. And this is not an option, since that would mean re-importing all those models, and we do not have map space for that.

About the T-Shape issue: I will probably change crucify to deal a full circle AoE in the next updates; the visual effect and range (and shrinking), however, will stay, as I feel it's adding a little bit of positioning flavour to the spell.

 

[TooMuch]

Ok if you watch the replay. Around 2:00 is when i first cast crucify. notice that everytime i cast crucify up above the ruins area, the effect im talking about does not occur. However, around 2:25 when i cast it the second time. It occurs up by the shaman, a little to the left of him. That is the effect that i am talking about.
Hopefully you see it, i reviewed the replay and found it still to be there. Also, i noticed that during the fight against the BM on that boss guide. The same effect happens when he uses crucify during the second spiderling wave. Its above the BM, where the effect occurs.

Anyone else who also noticed this plz let zwieb know. I just want to figure out what it is.

 

[doubtful]

Dont make it full circle aoe that way the skill becomes just another dull circle aoe. which ruins the point/beauty of the skill and makes it a lazy one. Dont kill the game in the name of "balance" Personally i think balance should come last since its a matter of numbers.

Leave the skill at it was just add aoe mechanics to it. Make it cross shape aoe.
Imagine it as a cross shape/form damage which the more it extends the weaker it becomes. Like sun waves but in cross shape/form.

Another thing. If you think the chars size doesnt help this change then you can even make the cross longer, wider etc

my english doesnt help me, hope you get what i mean.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Dont make it full circle aoe that way the skill becomes just another dull circle aoe. which ruins the point/beauty of the skill and makes it a lazy one. Dont kill the game in the name of "balance" Personally i think balance should come last since its a matter of numbers.

Leave the skill at it was just add aoe mechanics to it. Make it cross shape aoe.

It is already. That's the point of this thread.

Another thing. If you think the chars size doesnt help this change then you can even make the cross longer, wider etc.

That's not the point. We are talking about collision when clicking on the particular unit.

 

[Malygos10]

Are you kidding dude? Dont be stupid. The only reason why a fully tank crusader could take a couple more hits is because of the high health they acquire. ofc the bonus armor, and higher evasion is a considerable factor for anyone tanking. besides dude, if your "fully" tanked equipped berserker died that fast then why play a tanking serker?

If the difference is that huge, why are there even tanking serkers then? the stupidity of your statement is overwhelming. Trying to talk down my claim with that sentence was absurb in and of itself.

Sigh... again with the name calling. You need to calm down a little and understand that when people disagree with you it's not because they're trying to talk down your statement because they've got nothing else to do, but because they don't agree with it!

Besides, when did I say that I play a tanking berserker? I merely pointed out that that was an experiment I did to see just how tanky the 2 classes are. That's why there's class differences and what gear is best for one class, isn't exactly the best for another, as it would defeat the whole purpose of class roles. See how easily you were disgusted by a tanking berserker, and you're suggesting to add more dps to tankers... But notice how nobody judges your opinion or playstyle.

Also, you forgot to mention one thing with crusaders that make the class best for tanking, is the talent trees. I know it's a recent addition but I think it's worth a mention.

About the T-Shape issue: I will probably change crucify to deal a full circle AoE in the next updates; the visual effect and range (and shrinking), however, will stay, as I feel it's adding a little bit of positioning flavour to the spell.

I actually thought that the spell had a set circling aoe around the caster and the cross shape and the shrinking were just added for cosmetics

 

[TooMuch]

So you tested out the two tank classes according to what you think you know. And i call you stupid because thats what you are.
When did i ever talked about aggro management here in this thread? I havent. You for some reason just started stating how anyone can keep aggro and how the crusader is a better tank.

Ok so i was talking about crucify and its design. Not about the damage, not about the threat, and not about the different playstyles of a crusader. Why would you continue to bring up this crap that doesnt belong here?

And i believe you failed to read the OP. If you were to read the last sentence, i was making a suggestion to the spell. with my views on why.

Also, you forgot to mention that you probably tested with a two hand on that serker right? ofc you did. Because shields are useless in tanking with a serker for some reason. hint the sarcasm.
have you ever wondered why you died so fast now? lol zwieb where did this no shield tanking on a serker came from?

 

[Malygos10]

So you tested out the two tank classes according to what you think you know. And i call you stupid because thats what you are.
When did i ever talked about aggro management here in this thread? I havent. You for some reason just started stating how anyone can keep aggro and how the crusader is a better tank.

Ok so i was talking about crucify and its design. Not about the damage, not about the threat, and not about the different playstyles of a crusader. Why would you continue to bring up this crap that doesnt belong here?

And i believe you failed to read the OP. If you were to read the last sentence, i was making a suggestion to the spell. with my views on why.

Also, you forgot to mention that you probably tested with a two hand on that serker right? ofc you did. Because shields are useless in tanking with a serker for some reason. hint the sarcasm.
have you ever wondered why you died so fast now? lol zwieb where did this no shield tanking on a serker came from?

Well, first of all the only post where I talked about aggro and threat management was in my reply to Saiko, not you. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but I never brought that up after that.

Second, what I said about anyone being able to keep aggro is true. Any class can keep aggro, but they're not suited for tanking as well as crusaders are, so that's why we stress for crusaders to be able to keep aggro.

Besides, the only reason I mentioned damage is because you mentioned how crusaders can't wear shields with a 2 handed weapon, and I'm pretty sure that'd be ridiculous if it was implemented, and I thought that was another one of your ideas on what else to add.

And btw, most rational people would understand that when I said fully tank geared berserker I meant with shield included. But for some unknown reason you just up and decided to pick on something that's so obvious. You clearly have a high opinion of yourself, and I won't stoop down to your level by calling you names and thinking of myself as never being wrong.

 

[frustatedmagician]

ure being too kind to talk politely to a certified brat.

 

[Ihazdialup]

I think the + shape crucify it has is fine, but add a small circular aoe with the radius or w/e of the smallest tick of crucify around the crusader himself, every tick.

 

[SHBlade]

Well for me T shape dmg of crucy makes more sense than full circle aoe cuz mobs aren't just taking dmg from nuthin'. If mobs in corners will take dmg u shud take dmg from bm's poison cloud when u stay away from it (mean away from the cloud model).

At the end just want to say smth about zerker tank with 2h weapon.
My zerker can tank everything .
Regards.