Crusader War Flags

[Ihazdialup]

Well first off, when I was playing a game the other night, I noticed that me and someone else were both playing Crusaders, and the second one of us, really either of us, was completely useless, really low dps, and well didn't really help on bosses as you just need that 1 tank. You have 1 tanking, then the other is just pointless, its just really terrible, without any other supporting options.

So I was thinking, that we allow Crusaders to possibly get a new off-hand kind of similar to trophies, allowing them to use 2 Handed Weapons. But would also work in a similar fashion to instruments as in, semi-low stats for an offhand, and an aura for the team

As I see it, it would give a better parallel to Berserker, as Berserkers can use shields, and are even getting an ability to help-support that role, I guess Crusader CAN use 2hs, but there is no point, as you are sacrificing an item to do so. Nearly every class can support two or more roles, except Crusader.

Crusader simply only fills a tanking role. With some of the lowest dps, I actually think "DPS" Druids can out dps Crusader. Giving Crusader these offhands would just allow it to fill another role in the game. So incase 2 people want to play, the other person is not well.... completely useless.

Main Points:

• Give Crusaders access to a new Offhand, War Flags
  
• War Flags work in a similar way to instruments for bards
  
• Allows Crusader to fill more of a support role
  
• Can be usable with 2 Handed-weapons, possibly allowing a small dps increase
  
• Creates a better parallel between Crusader and Berserker

I imagine that the flags would look like the flags from the game, or custom flags, (like the orc/human standards) coming out of the back of the Crusader, kind of like the blademaster model.

I'd like to hear your guys's ideas about this.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

I think its a good idea. Crus needs some kinda smoothing out anyway. He's got rough edges around feeling an actual good feedback when you play as it. I find crus with good str and heroic absolutely capable of holding aggro anywhere in any team and dps is just a matter of his dead low crit chance and attack speed, and even though there are some moderately good str/agil gear for him he can only wear it when team healer and overall dps is good enuf.

In my opinion Zeal takes too much from crus to be called an actually positive change. He is in no way a caster but he got more than 180% spell crit multi. Let'ss be honest, his magic damage is just too low also. His main portion of aggro comes from auto-attacks, so low ArP and physical crit multiplier/chance together with low atkspd for him really hurt.
Considering we can divide the 10 chars into 5 "pure" and 5 "hybrid", him going off his main stat is kind of an abnormally standing-out shortage among other pure chars. One other option would be to increase his chance to reset cooldowns by some percentage since he really can't afford agility to gain attkspd, believe me I tried with 14 points in agil, and u know it ihaz.

On a personal note I think guardian angel is just way too nerfed also, I would like to see it more powerful. 10 second in every two minutes cooldown sounds miserable to me. Sometimes at alchemist when u don't get any resets an assasin can easily steal ur aggro away. It doesn't feel good as a tanker.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Well, I have no problem holding aggro, BUT, the ting im trying to get across is the ability to have just more than 1 Crusader in a game, and it'd be fine, but right now, 2 in a game kind of kills dps.

 

[noobcake]

In my opinion Zeal takes too much from crus to be called an actually positive change. He is in no way a caster but he got more than 180% spell crit multi. Let'ss be honest, his magic damage is just too low also. His main portion of aggro comes from auto-attacks, so low ArP and physical crit multiplier/chance together with low atkspd for him really hurt.

Please tell me you're trolling. Are you honestly saying the AP buff and bonus holy damage is worse than 15 STR?

 

[Ihazdialup]

Kyuzo, if you answer, can you please find another place like garena or through a private message, I'd rather not have this thread end up talking about completely something else, than its original intended purpose. I would rather not see this thread become a huge argument.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Hmm, there always were certain classes that did not stack very well. Bards for example, as most of their buffs and effects do not stack.

I tried to counter that by making different talent trees. There is a DPS tree for Crusaders, have you tried that? I think it plays out kinda good. Of course you can't expect a crusader to deal as much DPS as a berserker with the extra survivability it comes with. The upcoming new abilities will probably help crusaders out.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

Urrm. Hush cake and ihaz take it eAzY.
First off i didn't say that cake. If u remember old times Zeal is one of the "expensive skills" sold at city square and used to cost 7k and two mc's if I remember correctly. It takes away almost 8 arp and some good crit multi and normal damage which really affect autoattaks, that's all. Didn't mean the malus outweights the bonus. It's just too much a malus to be a good enuf spell like the spells sold at same shop.

I'm just stating that overall certain low traits of crus I mentioned altogether take away a portion of the authority a "main tank" needs. A 5 to 10% boost in general would not really hurt anything.

In addition to crus not having a parallel good "2nd offhand " as zerk does, zerk has the option to remove malus from his same-peer skill with similar bonus malus sytem "berserk age" and crus still don't. When bosses have 62, 85, 75, 65 (alch i might be wrong) armor, around 20 arp on crus, caused by restat+zeal kinda needs attention Zwieb. Just my opinion.

 

[Malygos10]

Kyuzo, if you answer, can you please find another place like garena or through a private message, I'd rather not have this thread end up talking about completely something else, than its original intended purpose. I would rather not see this thread become a huge argument.

Wouldn't hurt to have a little controversy around here. I wanna hear kyuzo's take on this and I don't expect him to flame noobcake and insult him. So please, post your opinions on this thread related to crusader's dps capabilities, so we can discuss it and help out those of us having a hard time understanding certain class roles

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

Malygos we are everyday-gaming friends they just didn't recognize my forum nick, no flaming happening here. Please no more about this.
Back to topic. I totally think depending on stats, an extra class of gear for crus can help smooth rough edges with crus gameplay, that's my take.

E.g. :
(meant to mention this on a certain other post but held back since it the whole post was turning away from topic..)
A usable temporary attackspeed buff on warflag or even as I thought previous to this thread, on seal of defensive chants, could really help with main tanks Monk and crus "store up" on aggro with timing on bosses, e.g. alchemist. Just one idea.

 

[Malygos10]

Malygos we are everyday-gaming friends they just didn't recognize my forum nick, no flaming happening here. Please no more about this.
Back to topic. I totally think depending on stats, an extra class of gear for crus can help smooth rough edges with crus gameplay, that's my take.

E.g. :
(meant to mention this on a certain other post but held back since it the whole post was turning away from topic..)
A usable temporary attackspeed buff on warflag or even as I thought previous to this thread, on seal of defensive chants, could really help with main tanks Monk and crus "store up" on aggro with timing on bosses, e.g. alchemist. Just one idea.

I have a different nick on garena too, and I was merely pointing out that we need to disccus this topic more thoroughly and that I didn't expect you to flame noobcake, so there's no need to pm him

 

[Ihazdialup]

Well Zweib what I was trying to get across is not necessarily the dps, but almost the lack of team support other than the Tanking role, and the possibility of having a 2h-Crusader build, since they still have access for 2 handed weapons, so I think it'd be neat for Crusaders to be able to utilize those more. And 2 Bards is fine because they can still pump out a good amount of dps (350+) along with their buffs.

 

[water_Knight]

I like the idea of war flags but not the idea of 2 hander / war flag. It should be 1 hander / flag.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

It's basicly up to the item design from this point on. I don't see the need for a new type of offhand if I could simply create specialized versions of 2h weapons or shields that can only be worn (or better: have stats that make them uninteresting for berserkers and put no restriction on them, since I don't like restrictions on gear) by crusaders and serve the purpose of adding group utility aside from tanking.

I tried to tackle that problem for the first time with 1.2A, as I created multiple types of stat combinations on items of the same type, to allow people to select gear from a wider range. 1.2A is actually the first time I ever made at least 2 item variations per type, quality level and class.

Looks like I should approach the itemization even more 'systematicly' on future updates.


On a side note, the lack of ArP is a neccessary tradeoff when playing an INT crusader. This is by design, as I want to seperate the two tanking playstyles of crusaders with future skill and gear diversity. INT Crusaders are meant to be more of an AoE threat control jack-of-all-trades of tanking. The future AoE threat skill addition 'Shield Throw' is going to be dependant on spellpower as well.
STR Crusaders will be designed around non-mana based single target tanking. The other new skill that is going to be implemented in 1.2B will support that playstyle. In combination with the different talent trees, I want to encourage people to try out those two different approaches on tanking and decide which playstyle suits them better.


I tried to achieve that with other more mono-style classes as well, making AGI a viable stat for spellcasters or giving the druid the opportunity to deal spellpower based damage. You guys should check out the abilities to come in 1.2B. I posted them somewhere in the roadmap thread.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Sounds fair.

 

[doubtful]

Zwieb.. man dont say such things. Gaias is religion! People are dogmatic when it comes to *how gaias should be played*. "the science of gaias"
hahaha couldnt resist