Close Quarters vFINAL R

[Moderator]

22:26, 21st Jul 2009
ap0calypse: Rejected

Unfortunately, you (creator of this map) are not listening to the good advice provided by other, more experienced users.
you started to flame and didn't take the advice they have given you.

On this site we like the users to respect eachother and respect the work others have done.
Reviewing a map is also working: it's working free, for you, because it gives you advice to improve the map and make it more suitable to be approved.

Since I do not think you are going to fix it, I will vote for perm. rejection.

 

[Ironside]

Vote for Aproval!

+ The map has a name, author, has a description, is in the right category
+ Terrain is good
+ The map also has enough gold mines (both players can build a second base)
+ Includes neutral buildings.
- The description could be better...


Vote for aproval
Rating: 4/5

 

[Septimus]

The Great Divide is a melee map by Captin_Worpex where a battle took place in a Great Wall where nobody known about the origin. To begin with, the description at hive provide the necessary background story of what is this map all about. However, a screenshot and better enchancesment to the description would make it far interesting and encouraging for user to download it.

Next comes the terrain, the tiles variation was fairly done. However, the landscape has project an blank feeling as most of the destructible/doodad such as mushroom, rock and shrub was focus mainly on the edge of the map rather than the field itself. To top up with, you add a rolling stone door to be a blockage between both player. This was rather a bad idea as it makes the AI player bugged since AI does not know how to break the door.

Apart from the lack of destructible/doodad usage on the field, the edge of the map was rather ugly as it was completely a blizzard cliff with multiple layer and a few tree to make it look like a hill; which certainly isn't presented very well.

Next comes the resources distribution, the lumber was fairly distribute even though the gold was way too limited which is fine since the purpose was for quick 1 versus 1 match.
The item drop seems to be fairly done as well and the creep seems to be suit for the map.

Overall, this resources was fairly decent in most of the aspect. But was lacking at a few specific point in terrain that naturally degrade the map quality and causing the AI player to be bugged.

Once the destructible rolling stone door was remove to prevent AI from being bugged, this resources was as good as approvable. My vote was 3/5 (Useful).

 

[Captin_Worpex]

Funny how good melee maps which are actually league worthy get shot down for retarded reasons (Broken AI, For having a blizzard like description) and shitty melee maps get praised because they have above average terrain but are overall shit for melee. Yes, i'm not the best terrainer who ever lived, but my maps are well balanced and can actually be used for real 1v1 games.

Honestly, this map isn't made for single player, I could care less about how the AI works. This is a 1v1 map, and if you don't have a friend to play 1v1 with, then don't even both reviewing this please. You probably don't know the first thing about melee.

Why descriptions are even part of the review process is beyond me, they are their for people to look at before they download and to decide whether or not they want to download or not. If you have a bad description, fine, no one will download it. But, the review should be a review of the map and what comes when you download it.

 

[Septimus]

Funny how good melee maps which are actually league worthy get shot down for retarded reasons (Broken AI, For having a blizzard like description) and shitty melee maps get praised because they have above average terrain but are overall shit for melee.

Because it was league worthy doesn't mean it was acceptable at other site. There is some rather good quality melee map that are even implemented with AMAI and well executed that isn't popular because the author does not promote their map or neither upload it to several site.

A good melee map does not only have good terrain and fairly balance in all aspect, but it also does not cause any disadvantage to other player and neither neglect the AI performance. To top up with, a good melee map would not effect the AI performance very much and still give player a lot of fun despite it playing with AI.

Why descriptions are even part of the review process is beyond me,

It is part of the rules of this section that all resources must have decent description on it. Ever learn to read the rules?

Also, read a tutorial of "The importance of a description" to know why description was crucial.

shitty melee maps get praised because they have above average terrain but are overall shit for melee.

The main thing at melee map was to focus on the terrain quality, resources distribution, creep types and item drops as far as I concern and nothing else.

If 1 of the part isn't well execute, it would not receive a positive reaction neither. That is why most of the melee map earn only 3/5 (Useful) state from our staff.

 

[Captin_Worpex]

Oh, i'm sorry to hear that you have no friends then. Next time I try to get creative and have fun making a melee map I'll make sure to implement special coding so that no lifes can play with the AI. That will be great, then it will show up as a custom map in wc3 and I wont be able to show the map to real wc3 players cause they would naturally assume that its been altered somehow. Good thinking!

Also, terrain is only important to a point in melee maps. You don't need to be a god of terrianing to make a good melee map. As long as you can create the basic design and make it look nice it doesn't really matter. The most important things are: Racial Balance, Creep Balance, Item Drops and Natural Resources. Also, if it doesn't have a tavern it wont be used either.

If you disagree, take a look at the map "Ancient Isles". Used in the best wc3 league in the world, (WC3L) and the terraining is only average.

 

[Septimus]

Oh, i'm sorry to hear that you have no friends then. Next time I try to get creative and have fun making a melee map I'll make sure to implement special coding so that no lifes can play with the AI. That will be great, then it will show up as a custom map in wc3 and I wont be able to show the map to real wc3 players cause they would naturally assume that its been altered somehow. Good thinking!

Instead of acting childish and trollish. Let me be honest to you, all my friends and I have our own life to deal with and there is ample of game available apart from wc3 where we can enjoy and most of them are not interested with melee map even if they play wc3.

Do not forget, garena and battlenet was highly manipulated by none melee map such as DotA; rendering it rather difficult to find a melee player all the time. As I have said, a good melee map would not have a terrain where it could effect AI performance while maintain the melee standard.

Also, terrain is only important to a point in melee maps. You don't need to be a god of terrianing to make a good melee map. As long as you can create the basic design and make it look nice it doesn't really matter. The most important things are: Racial Balance, Creep Balance, Item Drops and Natural Resources. Also, if it doesn't have a tavern it wont be used either.

A good map would not ignore any single aspect. As I have said in my previous post, if you make even 1 single mistake in 1 of the criteria, your map quality would degrade. That is why most of the melee map at here does not even recommended by our staff.

Do not forget, the hive site map quality control was far higher than 5 years ago.

If you disagree, take a look at the map "Ancient Isles". Used in the best wc3 leauge in the world, (WC3L) and the terraining is only average.

There is ample of rather good quality melee map as well, but it remain anonymous from the public eyes as the author doesn't promote or submit their work to some site that are regularly visited by users.

Just because it was used in the league, it doesn't mean it was the best either. I have seen countless of user who claim their map was the best at this and that, once they submit their work into a site where quality and standard was extremely high; they make themselves a laughing stock as their map quality was far inferior. I am not kidding over here, just look at a wc3c.net site; you would notice it have ample of high quality resources that put almost every other wc3 site into shame.

Do not forget, not many people interested at making melee map. If some excellent terrainer like Madsen make melee map several years ago and promote it, you can bet there is a lot of melee map would be isolated. Try make a popular genre map such as RPG or AOS, you would notice how fierce the competition is and how much aspect that need to be taken care of.

Also, how hard it was to remove 1-2 destructible that cause AI bug? Also, instead of making a decent quality work; why not strieve for better if you know you can do it?

 

[Rui]

Gentlemen, please stand down with the provocations.

Personally, I think a melee map should be able to be played with both the AI and normal players, and it is quite ridiculous that it isn't because of a gate. If you want the gate so badly, at least place a destroyed version, I believe there's one in the editor.

 

[Captin_Worpex]

Place it yourself. The gates there for a reason, I didn't just place the gate down, laugh and ignore it like you must think. It is there to prevent early hero harassing. The map is rather small, so a hero can get from one side to the other side in a faster time then normal, which will give orc blademaster users (for example) an unfair advantage. With the gate there, the BM will get to the opponents base around the same time as in Twistead Meadows, or any other standard ladder map.

A scout can still walk through the center of the wall (A hero cannot), so the gate does not effect gameplay in any other way. Once the gate gets torn down, it allows large armies to be able to pass to the other side.

I'm not a moron, I put time and effort into my maps and everything is well thought out and planned. I don't just put shit down, call it a map and submit it. This map is well polished, well thought out, creative and decently balanced. I'm not trying to say its the best map ever created, because its not. My terrianing skills are not the best, however, the map is FAR better then what you make it out to be. You think everything in melee is about terraining, but I hate to break it you, its not. Balance is far more important.

Like I said before, if you don't understand the basics of Melee (Which you obviously don't), please dont bother reviewing my maps. Thanks!

 

[Handycombinder]

Septimus could have looked more at the balance when he wrote he's review, but stop flamming, trolling and what so ever, because he didn't. You can say it in a more gentle way, and stop being aggresive towards other users.

 

[Septimus]

The map is rather small, so a hero can get from one side to the other side in a faster time then normal, which will give orc blademaster users (for example) an unfair advantage.

If you wanted the delay to be longer, you could have place a creep with stronger resistant at the vital point instead of level 3 creep that are easier to be defeat and a door that effect the AI performance.

Anyway, the gate could probably delay an estimate of 10 seconds only. How harmful it could be just to be early 10 seconds to your opponent base?

A scout can still walk through the center of the wall (A hero cannot), so the gate does not effect gameplay in any other way. Once the gate gets torn down, it allows large armies to be able to pass to the other side.

What's the point of it if the scout are the only 1 can pass through 1 by 1? If you play with AI, you want to see a bunch of AI stuck at the narrow path while slowly taking advantage of killing each of them without receiving a heavy resistant?

You think everything in melee is about terraining, but I hate to break it you, its not.

Do I just mention about terraining only? I mention a few other aspect as well. Like it or not, a good terrain would also took the aspect of preventing AI being bugged as well.

Like I said before, if you don't understand the basics of Melee (Which you obviously don't), please dont bother reviewing my maps. Thanks!

Basics of melee map took the aspect of AI as well. Like I said, you ignore 1 criteria and it would affect your map performance. Regardless you like it or not.

Instead of acting like a troll. Let me tell you 1 thing, all type of resources would be review at here.

There is always a negative review in anybody resources including mine. If you do not like your resources to be review, here is 1 advice.

CLICK HERE FOR ADVICE

Stay far, stay far far away from hiveworkshop.com and wc3c.net. Both of this site definitely not your type. Just submit your map at epicwar.com where you would never receive any review, tips and helpful suggestion at all where your map making skill would forever be the same and never progress as you does not learn anything valuable.

 

[Captin_Worpex]

Holy shit, you really do have a hard-on for the AI. Newsflash: The AI in WC3 Sucks.

I am not acting like a troll, your the one trolling. This is my map, I am merely defending it.

 

[ap0calypse]

Stop flaming/trolling. Now.

Accept information other users give you, it may be important.
Users who ignore reviews and flame because not everyone likes their maps do not belong here.

If you have the urge to flame someone, ignoring him would be the best option.
Though in this case none of the above is good (well, your map got rejected... obviously it wasn't a good choice to ignore Septimus in that case).

You are failing to defend the map, because the fact remains: you cannot play this map decently with an AI.