Built in Map Protection?

[Massive_attack]

Either way Blizzard wont spend more than a couple days on this feature, then say "k tis doen !" and leave it to rot. We will have SC2 map deprotectors within 1-2 months of release i bet.

 

[redmarine]

Either way Blizzard wont spend more than a couple days on this feature, then say "k tis doen !" and leave it to rot. We will have SC2 map deprotectors within 1-2 months of release i bet.

If those geeks want to. I hope not.

 

[DesKaladA]

...
Meh

Encrytipng a map isnt that hard
to keep it from being decrypted is harder

the best way to do that is to have a sourcefile based editer


you then have a sourcefile that contains all of the triggers and such
then you pass it though a compiler that turns it into a mapfile witch cant be opend by WE

 

[redmarine]

What if the editor could protect it by converted it into another format which the Editor doesn't support at all but only the game? Just like you can't convert Jass to GUI again.

 

[DesKaladA]

i just said that

 

[redmarine]

But you used so many weird words...

 

[DesKaladA]

you use soo many intntelegent wordz

 

[Hakeem]

If the game can run it, I can look at how it works.

You actually can decompile a lot of JASS to GUI, just not fully.

 

[redmarine]

If the game can run it, I can look at how it works.

You actually can decompile a lot of JASS to GUI, just not fully.

That is the cool stuff. If something doesn't then the editor would crash.

 

[DesKaladA]

If the game can run it, I can look at how it works.

You actually can decompile a lot of JASS to GUI, just not fully.

but useing a source compiler it still is harder to deprotect it

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

Maybe, it will ask you for a password, while your installing the game/editor and after that it will save the password samewere on your computer as a txt file, so you can change it, and when you open a map whit the editor it will ask for that password?

EDIT:
No this will not work, because the map must save the password, and it will be possible for hackers to view it, samehow.

 

[redmarine]

Maybe, it will ask you for a password, while your installing the game/editor and after that it will save the password samewere on your computer as a txt file, so you can change it, and when you open a map whit the editor it will ask for that password?

EDIT:
No this will not work, because the map must save the password, and it will be possible for hackers to view it, samehow.

That is why the editor shouldn't be able to read the protected files at all. They should change the format of the file to something else which only the game is capable of reading. It protected format shouldn't be simular to the regular map format at all.

 

[HappyTauren]

Hackers would always find a way to convert a game-reading file into scum editor file.

 

[redmarine]

Hackers would always find a way to convert a game-reading file into scum editor file.

But it will almost be hopeless if they also encrypt the encryption of the format.

 

[Hakeem]

If the game can read it, it can be read.
If it can be read, then it is possible for me to read it.

Please inform me if logic has changed and these are not true.

 

[redmarine]

I was saying that they would change the format to something totally different which the editor won't be able to suppot but the game would. You are not able to understand the data because it is totally bullshit in your eyes if you try to open it with a notepad.

 

[LordDz]

Maybe it will be like Hl2s VMF and BSP formats? VMF is for the hammer editor, the BSP is created when compiling the map (this takes TOO LONG TIME!), and then only the BSP can be played, aca the VMF can only be edited.

 

[DesKaladA]

again i just said that a cupple of posts back
ITS THE SAME SYSTEM
no matter what filetypes

 

[HappyTauren]

You people are missing the point. If it was possible to compile, it is still possibile to de-compile as well (make it readable by an editor). There are very few game world files that I've hacked, and I believe Hakeem did many more.

 

[Captain Griffen]

I was saying that they would change the format to something totally different which the editor won't be able to suppot but the game would. You are not able to understand the data because it is totally bullshit in your eyes if you try to open it with a notepad.

You can make a program to move it back the readable format. It will always be theoretically possible, since the game has to do it.

 

[PimpMunkeh]

... call me lame for practically reading this entire thread to catchup but...

Alot of people with Blizz supported SC2 sites have submitted the idea of either trying to give us built in map-locks with the StarEdit 2, or make it to where you can register them online(which is the more popular idea since it also allows openings for massive Map making contests/rankings/communities). Hell why not. if you don't have the internet, you're automatically safe. If you do have the internet? You can use a Bnet username and password to sign your maps under on the Blizz Servers. Easy.

I have to agree with those who actually don't believe in map locking. Now its totally Blizz's right to give you the right to lock these maps, but otherwise; the only thing you are trying to preserve by locking maps is your ego.

yeah, I don't want people stealing my project designs, but... ya' know what? What the hell; I release it FIRST on here? And I win. Simple. Losers can try stealing credit all they wish but its already in writing (so to speak) that the map is obviously mine. Having proof in writing owns all in practically any real life issue

This is why the "Map Registry" idea is a popular one among those SC2 sites. Or atleast the one I'm with.

It requires dedicated servers yes, but since Blizz sent us such purely blunt and obvious details of "What do you want us to do for the mod community?"... we replied.
The wants we've wanted in the Editor are slowly being answered... and so far so good. Blizz going as far as to create servers dedicated to just hosting a search section for finding maps for Download, custom models, custom skins, custom GUI Triggs and JASS, Mapping Contests; you name it - I feel its possible. And I also feel its the best way to go.

Ditch Map-Locking.

It is a futile idea and always has been. It also weakens the community due to its touchy subject nature.
I don't want to be an ass since I'm really new here, but I sure as heck didn't get any quick replies to my questions... and my questions are most likely not very noobish. I'd wrather have a map to look at right now...
Plus this thing about protecting is like some sort of "iffy" Artist's copyrite. Technically speaking... since you're damaging a Blizzard owned and written programming language... map protecting is (or atleast now -was-) unlawful.

 

[DesKaladA]

... call me lame for practically reading this entire thread to catchup but...

Alot of people with Blizz supported SC2 sites have submitted the idea of either trying to give us built in map-locks with the StarEdit 2, or make it to where you can register them online(which is the more popular idea since it also allows openings for massive Map making contests/rankings/communities). Hell why not. if you don't have the internet, you're automatically safe. If you do have the internet? You can use a Bnet username and password to sign your maps under on the Blizz Servers. Easy.

I have to agree with those who actually don't believe in map locking. Now its totally Blizz's right to give you the right to lock these maps, but otherwise; the only thing you are trying to preserve by locking maps is your ego.

yeah, I don't want people stealing my project designs, but... ya' know what? What the hell; I release it FIRST on here? And I win. Simple. Losers can try stealing credit all they wish but its already in writing (so to speak) that the map is obviously mine. Having proof in writing owns all in practically any real life issue

This is why the "Map Registry" idea is a popular one among those SC2 sites. Or atleast the one I'm with.

It requires dedicated servers yes, but since Blizz sent us such purely blunt and obvious details of "What do you want us to do for the mod community?"... we replied.
The wants we've wanted in the Editor are slowly being answered... and so far so good. Blizz going as far as to create servers dedicated to just hosting a search section for finding maps for Download, custom models, custom skins, custom GUI Triggs and JASS, Mapping Contests; you name it - I feel its possible. And I also feel its the best way to go.

Ditch Map-Locking.

It is a futile idea and always has been. It also weakens the community due to its touchy subject nature.
I don't want to be an ass since I'm really new here, but I sure as heck didn't get any quick replies to my questions... and my questions are most likely not very noobish. I'd wrather have a map to look at right now...
Plus this thing about protecting is like some sort of "iffy" Artist's copyrite. Technically speaking... since you're damaging a Blizzard owned and written programming language... map protecting is (or atleast now -was-) unlawful.

As haveing to look at all of the maps that are submited to this site

I see tons of stolen maps like clones of footman wars and outhers
Map locking would be a godsend to my job and it would get rid of 98% of the maps in the modration queen

And do remember losers are iditos 99% of the time so dont put them up that high

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

That was a little insulting...

 

[DesKaladA]

if you have to put up with what i put up with youll see that it is a godsend
and yes it may be i bit rough

 

[Hakeem]

I see tons of stolen maps like clones of footman wars and outhers
Map locking would be a godsend to my job and it would get rid of 98% of the maps in the modration queen

I'd rather Blizzard didn't design their games around this site. The nature of the Warcraft III map, is not something that needs moderation by default, and I'd expect much the same for Starcraft II maps.

so just shut your little yapper and go huddle in a corner because your views are views of a map unprotecter who likes to get famous quick and not take the time to acutally make someting good

I can't seem to find a shed of post to support this.

 

[Gilles]

The only problem with including a map protector is that people will break it after awhile. Then it becomes almost useless. With wc3, there are multiple protections, and the hacker has to figure out how they did it. Now if Blizzard made one, it would be simple to just dl a program and open any map. People will have to start making custom map protections again. Unless Blizzard updates the protector every once in a while, which I don't see happening.

 

[PurplePoot]

Flaming is not a feasible option, so please try to stay away from it. (Post edited)

The only problem with including a map protector is that people will break it after awhile.

The way I see it, you could make an analogy to Law there.

Then it becomes almost useless.

No it doesn't, I'm sure at least 90% of would-be stealers don't know about any of the existing map protectors.

With wc3, there are multiple protections, and the hacker has to figure out how they did it.

If you just want to add your name to the credits you don't even have to open the map, but if you actually want to change it...

Well, let's put it this way; have you ever tried to read obfuscated and compiled vJass?

Now if Blizzard made one, it would be simple to just dl a program and open any map.

In a damaged state, for those few who new of said deprotector's existence.

People will have to start making custom map protections again.

There are only a finite amount of things you can do to a map anyways, and seeing as Blizzard is writing the file formats I doubt they will leave any of them out, but who knows.

Unless Blizzard updates the protector every once in a while, which I don't see happening.

True that.

I have to agree with those who actually don't believe in map locking. Now its totally Blizz's right to give you the right to lock these maps, but otherwise; the only thing you are trying to preserve by locking maps is your ego.

yeah, I don't want people stealing my project designs, but... ya' know what? What the hell; I release it FIRST on here? And I win. Simple. Losers can try stealing credit all they wish but its already in writing (so to speak) that the map is obviously mine. Having proof in writing owns all in practically any real life issue

Have you ever had anything get stolen? It aint at all about ego (For many people anyways).

Plenty of people are willing to tell people how to do many of the things they do in their map, which makes map protection shut out potential stealers (which, as I said, there are other reason than ego for preventing), and still allows other modders to learn from your map (Or from you as a product thereof, anyways).

 

[PimpMunkeh]

Have you ever had anything get stolen? It aint at all about ego (For many people anyways).

Plenty of people are willing to tell people how to do many of the things they do in their map, which makes map protection shut out potential stealers (which, as I said, there are other reason than ego for preventing), and still allows other modders to learn from your map (Or from you as a product thereof, anyways).

I actually admitted in that post to having an Ego, but I know better than to go great legnths to protecting it. Its simply futile.
And to answer your question, yes. I've many things stolen from me. And they were of a value much higher than any mod/map on a game who's company owner ship overpowers your authority over that map you "modified" with permission.
I'm an artist.
I've had people steal some of my lyrics, 1 song and a few major art pieces.
Never again will I ever let poeple see/hear them unless they are near completion and already "copyrited" with my Name. The only versions people see also are "copies"
The originals are always in my posession only and never seen.
I've never had ANY infringments since I've done this, Ever.
Again, having proof in writing beats the offenders before they even attempt to offend.
Plus, when you send your file on here for DL... its a copy. You still have the origianal.

My experiance with the past it what provided me to give my opinion. Just be noted thats its merely my opinion; I just feel that my opinion works and works very well.

 

[Massive_attack]

Look at it this way.

Take note of the average battlenet user.
Most are:
-retards
-kids
-1337 5p34k3r5
-scum,garbage,or just a vile and/or twisted effigy displaying all that is wrong with humanity.

The facts on these low-life's:
-Most wouldnt know a world editor if you shoved it in theyre faces, even less would have any skill with it untill a few years later when theyre balls drop and theyre heads exit theyre rectum's.

-Even for the small margin of douchebags who do know how to use the editor (and mind you, probably not very well) could not get past a protection system. Especcialy if the map was protected by a fairly reliable program which damages the map in a number of ways.

-Now for the tiny precentage that is left, and these are the urchins who have been around for years, veritable code monkeys bent on changing your map for god knows what reason, how many would actually spend the hours needed to deprotect a well protected and locked up map ? and how many would attempt to thougholy ruin it after that? I have had my maps broken open so some retard could change what units a dropship carried.

Point is, if you have a good reliable protection system and you have done your research regarding how maps are deprotected, you stand a fair chance of having a rarely opened map.

Hell, you probably stand a better chance of someone from a forum like this downloading your map and breaking it open than on Bnet, and thats not just my opinion.

Oh and PS: if you regularly update your map, and make spinoff versions yourself on something like a weekly basis, nobody will ever bother opening your map, as theyre opened version will just be so damn outdated that it would pale in comparison to your new version.

 

[PurplePoot]

Massive_attack, even a well-protected map can be cracked in seconds with the right tools.

PinkMunkeh, with WCIII map stealers, the issue is not so much about who has credit (you can prove the original versions blah blah blah), but whether cracked versions (which suck, etc), are being hosted as 'official' versions on BNet.

 

[Massive_attack]

Massive_attack, even a well-protected map can be cracked in seconds with the right tools.

My point exactly, how many of these retarded f**ks have tools whatsoever, let alone good ones, I think we are overestimating a group of people who are fundamentally alot more stupid than we realise.

Or maybe USWest is the only real grand congregation of retards on Bnet servers, but i doubt that.

 

[PurplePoot]

I was referring to

-Now for the tiny precentage that is left, and these are the urchins who have been around for years, veritable code monkeys bent on changing your map for god knows what reason, how many would actually spend the hours needed to deprotect a well protected and locked up map ? and how many would attempt to thougholy ruin it after that? I have had my maps broken open so some retard could change what units a dropship carried.

Or maybe USWest is the only real grand congregation of retards on Bnet servers, but i doubt that.

Your doubt is justified, though USWest is known for its abnormal noob concentration. (Rednecks )

 

[Callahan]

They suck.
Rly. Who doesnt have internet these days.

70% of the world population.

 

[redmarine]

70% of the world population.

Half of the Korean(North or south) population has broadband. Internet is accessible for all nowadays.

 

[Callahan]

Half of the Korean(North or south) population has broadband. Internet is accessible for all nowadays.

Half of the Korean isn't 70% of world population.
And if you say north and south the half who does have broadband is in the south and since south Korea population is highter than North it's easily half of the Korean.
And don't say that as if Korea was the perfect exemple of under develloped country who have internet connection.
Its a wealthy developed country for sometime.Wake up the 2nd WW is over since 1945.
I'm right, you're wrong.
End of Troll.

 

[redmarine]

I didn't troll. That is why I said "or" because I didn't remembered which country it was. I am not saying that it is a perfect example on a developing country either. I know when world war 2 started and ended. Are you saying that you are more clever than me? I get offended by your reply.
End of Transmission. - Enough off-topic.

 

[Maged]

My point exactly, how many of these retarded f**ks have tools whatsoever, let alone good ones, I think we are overestimating a group of people who are fundamentally alot more stupid than we realise.

It's called Google.

PinkMunkeh, with WCIII map stealers, the issue is not so much about who has credit (you can prove the original versions blah blah blah), but whether cracked versions (which suck, etc), are being hosted as 'official' versions on BNet.

Allowing maps to be digitally signed to a specific and unique username/organization via Battle.net which would then be displayed in the game list and lobby would stop this. If someone else edits it, people would notice that it was signed by someone else (or not signed at all), assuming the map educated the user to look out for fakes. This is similar to how Extended Validation Certificates will display the company who registered a site to prevent phishing, minus the cost and review process.

 

[Yin-Yang]

Doesn't Blizzard recommend opening peoples maps to see how they work? why would they develop a way to lock your map?

Don't get me wrong, I hate noobs who edit and release rigged maps just as much as the next guy. But I highly doubt that blizzard will make a map lock feature. Besides... don't all your maps belong to them (Blizzard) anyways?

 

[redmarine]

Doesn't Blizzard recommend opening peoples maps to see how they work? why would they develop a way to lock your map?

Don't get me wrong, I hate noobs who edit and release rigged maps just as much as the next guy. But I highly doubt that blizzard will make a map lock feature. Besides... don't all your maps belong to them (Blizzard) anyways?

True about the recommend people to open maps to learn but you should probably read the Q&A on their StarCraft II site. They've stated that they will add a map lock/protection feature in the Scum Editor.

 

[Lestat(br)]

I think that blizzard realized that they have a huge modding community, and if their protector once leaks, they will update it.
And also, deprotecting and retrieving data is a difficult task to do, not everyone can do it...

 

[HappyTauren]

...which is why you have nice 3rd party tools to do it for you. There will always be a way to break protection though,

 

[redmarine]

...which is why you have nice 3rd party tools to do it for you. There will always be a way to break protection though,

It's only a matter of time...

 

[Newuser]

Ditch Map-Locking.

It is a futile idea and always has been. It also weakens the community due to its touchy subject nature.
I don't want to be an ass since I'm really new here, but I sure as heck didn't get any quick replies to my questions... and my questions are most likely not very noobish. I'd wrather have a map to look at right now...
Plus this thing about protecting is like some sort of "iffy" Artist's copyrite. Technically speaking... since you're damaging a Blizzard owned and written programming language... map protecting is (or atleast now -was-) unlawful.

One thing I like about Map Locking is it gives a huge defense to map riggers.

In the early days of Starcraft, when custom maps were being made for the first time, that was a huge problem.

People will just open a popular map, add invulnerable units to their side, save, it and play it.

It was easy.

Now, of course, map protection doesn't give a 100% prevention or defense against riggers but I think it at least keeps away "most" of the people who may try to rig your map, from rigging it, because they have no idea how to open the map or want to bother researching it through google or anything.

"Most" people is quite a lot of people. A lot of people prevented, means a lot less rigging attempts, a lot less potential stealers, a lot less people who may screw up your map, etc.

I think that blizzard realized that they have a huge modding community

Yes, if it weren't for custom maps, Wacraft 3 and Starcraft's population would reduced by 70-80%(just some "guesstimates").

So Blizzard decided to release a lock feature considering how popular custom maps are, and how popular unofficial map locks are.

 

[LordDz]

I would like it so you could open and map, but you couldn't edit in anyway if you had this lock on it. That way people can LEARN from triggers and suchs, without having to spam forums with their questions.

 

[redmarine]

I would like it so you could open and map, but you couldn't edit in anyway if you had this lock on it. That way people can LEARN from triggers and suchs, without having to spam forums with their questions.

That's what forums are for right? Also this would be a nice boost for thehelper.net

 

[LordDz]

Yes, but if you allow opening of maps, without editing them - Less questions, and you might even understand easier.

''A picture says more than thousands of words''.

 

[redmarine]

Yes, but if you allow opening of maps, without editing them - Less questions, and you might even understand easier.

''A picture says more than thousands of words''.

Yeah, and especially if it is in GUI(If you don't like raw code). I understand that you want to be able to see the source code but people have the rights to protect them. But of course if they want to share it they are welcome.

 

[Hakeem]

That's what forums are for right?

No, that's what documentation is for.

Forums are supposed to be for more advanced questions than "How do I create a unit?"

I understand that you want to be able to see the source code but people have the rights to protect them.

Like the music industry has the right to control what you do with your music files.

If you release a map, then you've released the map. At that point anyone can do anything they want with it. Obfuscating the code at that point is a big "screw you" to other modders.

 

[LordDz]

Well, there is a difference between what you say and what I mean. What I mean is that if they PROTECT it, it should be useable, but you wouldn't have any way of alterning it.


Of course there will be hack programs, but I would like to not having to use them just to see how one dota hero casted that specific spell, which would take 10 minutes instead of going to the forum, wait for an answer that might even be right.

 

[HappyTauren]

So, the lesson. Go for originality, don't copy dota abilities...?