Bay of Pigs

[Moderator]

18:50, 22nd Feb 2009, by Rui
This map needs improvement, and fast. As soon as you see this message, please take the time to read my review (on post 6), make the necessary changes, and contact me. If you don't, I'll reject the map.

13:44, 28th Feb 2009, by Rui:
The map is now acceptable! Check the new comment #10 for some extra suggestions.
My rating for this map is 3/5 (Useful). The map is Approved!

 

[yakonshus]

I'd say you done a good job there, the map is well mapped, simple and beautiful. Though there is one thing i dont like. You have guarded the tavern with the strongest units in the map! At the time you killed them, you alredy have bought 3 heroes. Taverns in this map is good, fits it. But not guarded, make a marketplace or Goblin Merchant instead.

I'd give 8/10

 

[Epix_Loot]

You have guarded the tavern with the strongest units in the map! At the time you killed them, you alredy have bought 3 heroes.

Doh! I once again couldn't resist it. I should've known it was a bad idea...

 

[yakonshus]

Oh, and found another bug, the AI cant figure out to play while being in the northend or southen base camp, the trees are too far away.

 

[Eccho]

Oh, so it's a look alike map? That is alright, but you must look at the overall aspect of what it will provide.

My first question I asked was, where are all trees? Yes I know, I saw them all, but they are way too far away from your base. It might not be a problem when you are player ne, orc or human, but playing undead was kind of critical since that requires blight. And regarding the creeps, I would really want some balance on that. It seemed rather pointless to let a lvl2 and two lvl1 creeps to guard a goblin merchant. Some creeps are just placed quite haphazard as well in my opinion. Don't make a group of creeps spread out. Neither, don't place them too close to a player start location, as some of the expansion gold mine's creeps disappeared. Item drops could have been better as well. the creeps guarding the close expansions gave me me an Ankh, which is a too high reward there. It should rather have been where the eredar warlocks are guarding. Also, one final thing here... Don't have neutral hostile heroes. That is not really the standard of melee maps.

That bring me to balance. No, I would say... The gold mine expansions is really badly placed, and is only awesome for a race like undead. Neither of the rest of the races could build a main building neat it. And as I said before, the reversed with the trees. There should be trees around you base, not in front of it.

The AI couln't manage your map either, as they failed to construct expansions and place buildings properly. Sure, playing versus an insane computer was hard even though these circumstances. But I rarely see AI's which builds 4 main halls in the same base. Also, they seemed to be alittle bit twisted about the lumber harvesting too.

The overall terrain quality could be much better. In my opinion, the grass trim should be removed completely. The shapes and such might be okay, but not in the base and not in the near expansion areas. Dalaran observation Buildings does not fit at all, neither the houses (they could have been scorched and burned for instance, that would match better). Some more critic would be that the terrain lacks variation, both of tileset and destructables/doodads. The terrain is also way too flat. Some depth/heigh variation would make it better.

Overall, it was playable but needs alot of work. I can't really approve this. It should be rejected and moved to the development forum.

 

[Rui]

√6 player slots √Originality (X)AI behavior (X)Balance (X)Creep choice (X)Drops (X)Neutral buildings

I am reviewing "Bay of Pigs", supposedly by Epix_Loot. My congratulations to the creator for an at least original terrain, it's a pity that that and the 6 available player slots are the only things I can mark as a plus in this map. First of all, the AI does not behave correctly when the resources are distanced from the main base. An insane Orc AI built 4 Great Halls, for example, and by reading some of the useful comments I also know that the AI will not behave correctly when situated on the north or south positions. Now that I realize it, the trees are indeed far from their bases.

Second, the idea of having Gold Mines to the two sides of the base was interesting: the tiles do not allow you to build another Town or Great Hall near them, but come to think of it, the Undead need only haunt the Gold Mine, and the Tree of Life actually fits in there. The only way to make it even is to begin harvesting wood from those blocking trees right at the beginning, but what if the player doesn't find that out in time? He's screwed. Take this a minus on balance or newbie-friendliness.

As bad as the previous point I mentioned are the creep choice and the drops.
For the creep choice, I give you a single advice: do NOT use Fel Orcs. The reason is simple: they are not balanced, and are not supposed to be used as creeps.
As for the drops, I recommend you take a look at Blizzard's ladder maps and learn from them. The drops that you chose – and I'm not even going to mention the middle one – are way too powerful for the creeps you chose.

Finally, the neutral buildings. There are way too many, including Gold Mines. Again, the creeps you chose are not strong enough to be worth so many of these buildings. Take the middle north and the middle south camps, for example: four weak Eredars plus a strong one, and you get an artifact (which can include items such as the Mask of Death and the Crown of Kings+5), a Fountain of Health, a Fountain of Mana, and two Gold Mines (which again favor the Undead more than anything else).


And now I don't know what to do with this map. I cannot approve it, that's for sure, but I know that you might work on these points I mentioned. Hopefully we'll have these statuses problem dealt with soon.
For now, my rating is a very weak 1,5/5 (Lacking) and the map stays Pending.

 

[Epix_Loot]

Oh, so it's a look alike map? That is alright, but you must look at the overall aspect of what it will provide.

My first question I asked was, where are all trees? Yes I know, I saw them all, but they are way too far away from your base. It might not be a problem when you are player ne, orc or human, but playing undead was kind of critical since that requires blight.

Oops . Let me fix that.

And regarding the creeps, I would really want some balance on that. It seemed rather pointless to let a lvl2 and two lvl1 creeps to guard a goblin merchant. Some creeps are just placed quite haphazard as well in my opinion. Don't make a group of creeps spread out. Neither, don't place them too close to a player start location, as some of the expansion gold mine's creeps disappeared.

I'm haven't yet got the hang on the proper placement of creep/building combinations. I thought the point was: The further away from your start location, the stronger the creep groups. Ah well, I'll see what I can do

Item drops could have been better as well. the creeps guarding the close expansions gave me me an Ankh, which is a too high reward there. It should rather have been where the eredar warlocks are guarding.

Same story as with the creeps here. Do you have more suggestions on good item drops? I really could use the advice.

That bring me to balance. No, I would say... The gold mine expansions is really badly placed, and is only awesome for a race like undead. Neither of the rest of the races could build a main building near it. And as I said before, the reversed with the trees. There should be trees around you base, not in front of it.

Ouch. Maybe I could better remake the map a little bigger, or else fixing this would destroy the shape of this map, and thus, the remake of the bay of pigs.

The AI couln't manage your map either, as they failed to construct expansions and place buildings properly. Sure, playing versus an insane computer was hard even though these circumstances. But I rarely see AI's which builds 4 main halls in the same base. Also, they seemed to be alittle bit twisted about the lumber harvesting too.

When I remake this map bigger, I will include this update.

The overall terrain quality could be much better. In my opinion, the grass trim should be removed completely. The shapes and such might be okay, but not in the base and not in the near expansion areas.

It's a remake. The original Bay of pigs was this simple. Changing the terrain wouldn't make this map remind me of the original map

Dalaran observation Buildings does not fit at all,

In the original bay of pigs, there were lighthouses where the observation posts are now. They were simly the closest matches to a lighthouse in terms of looks. Well there's the human shipyard, but it has a docks attatched to it, so I thought I'd better find something else while keeping this a melee map.

neither the houses (they could have been scorched and burned for instance, that would match better).

Nope, that wouldn't match at all. They were whole in the original, so they will be whole here as well.

Some more critic would be that the terrain lacks variation, both of tileset and destructables/doodads. The terrain is also way too flat. Some depth/heigh variation would make it better.

That's what bay of pigs looks like. I'm sorry, but I will NOT change this

Overall, it was playable but needs alot of work. I can't really approve this. It should be rejected and moved to the development forum.

I'll work on it. Many thanks for your attention. It looks like I'm going to have to remake this map, if I'm to get it approved.

EDIT: i might not have to completely remake it after all, update coming sooner than i could have hoped for!

 

[Epix_Loot]

Map Updated! I got the AI working, trees closer to the base, removed abundant neutral buildings/creeps, relocated the taverns and edited the item drops.

 

[bounty hunter2]

bounty hunter2's Review on Bay of Pigs

Bay of Pigs is a six player melee map where you seize control of one of the 4 melee races and your goal is to destroy the opponents.
This is a short and hasted review since I am in a rush.

Firstly, the terrain is done poorly. The tiles used are combined in a strange way. Outland tiles I think combined with the Loarderon ones. The terrain is way to flat and it lacks dodoads. The houses you put were kinda off place.

The balance is fine since it's symmetrical and it's best played full house. If not full house it could get imbalanced a bit.

The drops were fine, however I don't think you used item tables, did you? Since some of the creep groups droped the same items.

Some of the creep groups were to strong, actually the one with the infernals and the diabolists, you should make them weaker.

This concludes my short review, this map is playable, however still lacking some improvements. My vote is Approval and 2/5 (Lacking).

 

[Rui]

• The drops of the red creep camps still don't convince me.
• There is now an overuse of flags in the middle of the map...
• Regarding the middle, you could make a square road and use only a single Tavern. It's silly to have two Taverns next to each other.
• Try to use a little more ground texture variation. Destructibles such as houses and trees serve only to cover that part up, in my opinion, and they're that pleasing to see.
• There are four Goblin Laboratories relatively close to each other. What do you say of replacing the northwestern and southeastern ones to Goblin Merchants (or vice-versa)? Looks much better.

My rating doubles to 3/5 (Useful). The map is Approved!

 

[Epix_Loot]

Bay of Pigs is a six player melee map where you seize control of one of the 4 melee races and your goal is to destroy the opponents.
This is a short and hasted review since I am in a rush.

Firstly, the terrain is done poorly. The tiles used are combined in a strange way. Outland tiles I think combined with the Loarderon ones. The terrain is way to flat and it lacks dodoads. The houses you put were kinda off place.

The terrain Is Exactly like I want it to be. Bay of Pigs in Red Alert 2 looked the same. This is a look a like.

The drops were fine, however I don't think you used item tables, did you? Since some of the creep groups droped the same items.

I copied the item drops from other Melee maps, since I'm not goot at making drop decisions.

Some of the creep groups were to strong, actually the one with the infernals and the diabolists, you should make them weaker.

I Decided to make that camp this strong, because the reward is 2 gold mines and a marketplace.

The drops of the red creep camps still don't convince me.

Then I don't know what to make them drop anymore. I copied red camp drops from blizzard melee maps, just to make sure to get 'em right... guess that wasn't good enough

There is now an overuse of flags in the middle of the map...

Oh that. That's another Imitation. Next update will have screenshots comparing the warcraft III and the Red Alert II versions of this map. Then you'll see for yourself.

Regarding the middle, you could make a square road and use only a single Tavern. It's silly to have two Taverns next to each other.

True. But i need 2 of the same neutral buildings there. It's still a remake. I guess a tavern doesn't suit that, does it?

Try to use a little more ground texture variation. Destructibles such as houses and trees serve only to cover that part up, in my opinion, and they're that pleasing to see.

The terrain is Imitated from a popular Red Alert 2 map, and I got it looking the same now. I'm not changing this. Same goes for the houses.

There are four Goblin Laboratories relatively close to each other. What do you say of replacing the northwestern and southeastern ones to Goblin Merchants (or vice-versa)? Looks much better.

Thanks! I'll do that.

 

[DemondX]

memories back to my mind!
a good map of yuri's revenge.
congratulations! Comrade General

 

[andc]

I can't get this to work with AIs on 1.29, if they're night elf or undead they don't attempt to mine from their gold mine, and if they're human or orc they walk around the edges to the nearby gold mines and get killed in the process...

 

[deepstrasz]

I can't get this to work with AIs on 1.29, if they're night elf or undead they don't attempt to mine from their gold mine, and if they're human or orc they walk around the edges to the nearby gold mines and get killed in the process...

If possible try it on 1.24/1.26/1.27.