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Autumn Leaves 1.6

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Reactions: Vinz and deepstrasz

Another Competetive 1vs1 Map by Tenshi

1 Tavern
1 Lab
1 Merc
2 Shops
2 Expansions for each player.

The falling leaves drift by the window, the seasons are changing. All sorts of creatures are starting to search for a warm place for the upcomming winter.
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Contents

Autumn Leaves 1.6 (Map)

Reviews
Nudl9
Layout looks a bit standard. Map looks pretty though. Nice contrasts with red + green. Lots of green in general is always a plus. A little variety in creeps spice things up i think. I'm not seeing things i want to do as NE players. Ogre Magi + 2...
mafe
Ok, so this is again a very good map. Visually there is really nothing to complain about, and it's clear you put a lot of effort into it. Regarding gameplay: -The key points are of course the expansions which are located towards the center. I like...
Level 12
Joined
Mar 10, 2019
Messages
85
you asked for a review but somehow i cant really say much about this map. its a solid playable map.
Maybe there isnt much interest because it feels kinda boring.

I dont want to discourage you, i know making maps is a lot of work. But i think the community here is so small feedback is rare and for the most part this hobby builds on self enjoyment rather then feeding of nice words from other people.

Anyways, you should save it as a frozen throne map and set the game data on default. :thumbs_up:
 
Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,558
Layout looks a bit standard.
Map looks pretty though.

Nice contrasts with red + green.
Lots of green in general is always a plus.
A little variety in creeps spice things up i think.

I'm not seeing things i want to do as NE players.
Ogre Magi + 2 trappers would be the camp to do, but it's actually rather strong.

I don't like how "locked away" the merc camp and lab is.
I'd rather use them straight away.
Mercs fall off in power scaling really quickly and should therefore be more accessible.
Hard lab is fine, but playing with zeppelins is always fun.
I don't know what i'd do to make it different from Northeren Isles with the center though.

Playtesting will shed more light on what you need to improve here, i think even bots will do.
 
Level 21
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
83
Layout looks a bit standard.
Map looks pretty though.

Nice contrasts with red + green.
Lots of green in general is always a plus.
A little variety in creeps spice things up i think.

I'm not seeing things i want to do as NE players.
Ogre Magi + 2 trappers would be the camp to do, but it's actually rather strong.

I don't like how "locked away" the merc camp and lab is.
I'd rather use them straight away.
Mercs fall off in power scaling really quickly and should therefore be more accessible.
Hard lab is fine, but playing with zeppelins is always fun.
I don't know what i'd do to make it different from Northeren Isles with the center though.

Playtesting will shed more light on what you need to improve here, i think even bots will do.

Well as ne u do the squash camp normal lvl 9 creep spot like many other maps. then u can move it to the expo.
I don think standart is bad that is what we want on the tournamet pool.
the unique layout is the close mid goldmine. Yes the lab is and merc are in the middle and not to easy to get to. But they are good to use to push vs the expo in the middle cuz they are very close and u could get zapper.

The map is already playtested many times and played in a league next season
 
Level 24
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,558
I don think standart is bad that is what we want on the tournamet pool.
That's not what i mean.
When you make a map it should add something new or improve upon something old.

For example:
Amazonia is a small map with lots of open space.
Twisted Meadows is a map where information is key, players can build several expansions and games can last long.
Last Refuge is a linear map that has a high ground positions you can use on offense.
Terenas Stand is a map with two strong chokepoints and a safe expansion that most players will build.
Turtle Rock is a map with many small tricks and gimmicks. It's a curveball map where no two games play the same.

You see how easy it is to describe the layout with these maps?
They all bring something new and interesting aspect to the table.

Now if you look at your map i would say:
"It's an open map with quick expansions and with a focus on center control."
The problem is that safe expansions are hard to hold and it's the main camp you want to do.
 

mafe

Map Reviewer
Level 24
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
869
Ok, so this is again a very good map. Visually there is really nothing to complain about, and it's clear you put a lot of effort into it.

Regarding gameplay:
-The key points are of course the expansions which are located towards the center. I like the idea, but it's also good that players an still go for a more standard alternative mine.
-While I agree that a central merc camp kinda makes mercs less useful: While that's true, we have maps without mercs, and some where mercs are available pretty much right from the start. Both work, so I think something in between is also fine. I mean, we already something like that in the shape of AZ, where mercs are still sometims used nevertheless.
-Currently, none of the creeps on the central mine are on the non-reduced aggro stance. This means players can abuse the creep AI to do stuff like this:
upload_2020-6-23_21-58-34.png
Other races can do similar stuff like building towers before killing the creeps. Maybe move a troll more "behind" the mine? Not entirely sure, but imho there should be some kind of change.
-Creeps and items are good. The lvl 4 item from the kobolds still feels kinda strong to me, but it's the same as on TS_LV so I cant blame you for this. I think the red camps are noticably weaker than on AZ despite being 9-6-6 creeps too. I guess the lack of a powerup is fair.
-While there are no gaps between trees, there are numerous tress where wisps are safe from being attacked by melee units. This could also be abused by highlevel players.

So overall, it's a really good map with just two, but potentially relatively important downsides (creeps at the mine and wisp spots). I guess you'll have a look at those anyway, or tell me why you disagree :) Therefore map Approved.

Edit: Also, is the map description just a placeholder?
 
Level 12
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
104
The murloc creep camp behind central expo is only separated from it by a thin line of trees. This could lead to unwanted abuse:
1) Making an opening in the back with mortars or so and harassing the worker line without exposing yourself. Building an Ancient Protector on the other side. Etc.
2) Or, if it's your own base, cutting a path through the trees and lurk the creeps into your defensive structures. You could be creeping elsewhere with your hero at the same time cause the creeps will block each other and walk in only one by one.
I can't tell how realistic these two scenarios are. Maybe ask some players to specifically try and abuse this situation. If it is a problem, create a cliff or move the camp to the nearby coast.
tree-line.jpg

Also, the two creep camps are very close to each other and AoE spells like Blizzard will trigger the other camp.
blizzard.jpg

This creep camp can be AoW-crept on the left side of the map, but not on the right:
aow-15.jpg
Though I can't tell you whether this is a reasonable AoW spot to begin with. Probably not at the very beginning, but perhaps a bit later into the game?

These doodads may be in the way for AoW farming:
aow-doodads.jpg

The distance between your starting position and the central expo is about 30% shorter than it is on any other popular map. Sure, it's also very close to the enemy base and you've probably tested it to make sure that it doesn't completely break the game, but it's really, really close. Almost feels like the bases will grow into one. Spooky!

Feels like a pretty wide map, with few chokepoints in the center at least. Perhaps an orc map? There's four lvl 2 permanents to be picked up on your way to the enemy base and back. Both the Lab and the Merc Camp are unaccessible for a long time as well.

Will a player who's got the upper hand quickly sack the two big orange spots in the center and seal the deal? They're not super close to each other though so it may not be an issue at all.

Looks like a pretty solid map all in all.
 

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Level 16
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
53
This map is very polished and visually pleasing. Your use of terrain, tilesets and height levels is absolutely on point. The general conception of this map is loaned from Northern Isles (picture below) with a little shift of neutral buildings (Merccamp instead of Marketplace; 2 Shops instead of 2 Labs). Taking well balanced elements from other popular maps and carefully mixing them with some fresh ideas is generally the best approach of mapping and way superior to the other common approach of trying to create the most epic and fancy map possible and ending up with some crazy imbalance.
leaves.png

You adopted NI's big innovation of placing two different neutral buildings left and right of the tavern which is fair because they are equally accessible to both players. Your own big innovation are the gold mines in the middle. Let's be honest, placing them so close to the main bases is a bold decision that will decide if the map is playable or not, as @Cigaro already pointed out. The only way to get an answer on this question is to follow high level play on this map. Therefore, it is a great opportunity that W3C added this map to their pool. This will provide you some valuable feedback of high level players.


Beside the more valuable feedback of actually skilled players, I'd like to mention a few of my findings:
  • Map borders generally shouldn't exceed the playable area significantly. In this case, you could reduce the map by 3 points in all directions without losing anything, resulting in a map size of 96x96 instead of 102x102. Again, compare your map to NI and notice how much closer the goldmines are to the map borders on NI.
  • It is good practice to support the map borders by some terrain like cliffs or deep water. Especially at the starting positions. If the forest gets chopped by a shredder/catapult, the map border becomes quite ugly (picture below). I added an easy solution.
Unbenannt.png

  • Your doodad game is not quite on the same level as your terrain game. Towards the map edges (especially the left) you spam like 1000 doodads which is not necessary at all (as mentioned above, just decrease the map size). On the other hand, all creepcamps on the map are simply surrounded by some U-shaped trees which is quite boring or even abusable when it comes to the natural expansion as @Cigaro already mentioned. Occasional cliffs/deep water or non-destructible doodads like rock spires would be quite an improvement.
  • As mentioned in the beginning, your terrain is almost perfect. Some problems occur due to the Reforged-Classic transition (picture below). Especially the grassy dirt to grass transition looks quite unpleasant in Classic. There are some "lost tiles" that look infuriating in Classic graphic, especially the one "lost" dirt tile above the blue main building.
AL.png

  • All green creepspots are very similar in strength (lvl 9/7/6). Maybe it would be a good idea to add a low risk low reward creespot (total lvl 3-4 with lvl 1 tome drop). My suggestion would be to use the empty space between main base and goldmine (picture below). Placing a few Murlocs or Turtles would also enhance the water-theme in this part of the map.
turtles.png
 
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