Airships

[Raydin]

Using metamorphosis crashes the damn game, Ive tried this and re-tried this

 

[Zepher]

I've experimented with it and airships, and it works just fine for me, it might be that you gave the airship something that is incompatible with morphing or the game version you are playing is unastable, or other things on your end

 

[Zepher]

My overall suggestion is to have 2 ships, one that fires fast piercing projectiles at air units and really slow but siege AOE projectiles at ground units

And a second one that fires fast strong siege AOE projectiles at ground units

Take the metamorphosis ability and change it such that it converts ship 1 into ship 2, but does so for only like 10 seconds and has a long cooldown

 

[Raydin]

What exactly is the difference between this and using the cluster rockets ability that was said earlier

 

[Zepher]

Cluster rockets does constant damage each time

Cluster rockets wont effect magic immune units

This basically focuses the airship on anti ground warfare for a short time, plus I think itll look good as an ability

You can set it up so that for those 10 seconds it drops extremely powerful bombs on things below it or right next to it

 

[Lord Alyx]

You could make it so that the airship gets either gets burning oil or liquid fire when it uses metamorphosis, if you tune them right the damage done to buildings with them will be colossal

 

[Zepher]

Imho burning oil would be the better of the two because it damages both buildings and units.

What I believe the key is to making this design successful is having the transformed airship (airship 2) having a quick siege attack that does some good AOE damage. Just picture it in your mind what this would do.

 

[DingoT]

why dont you just give the airship avatar? I think thats the easiest solution @Raydin

 

[Raydin]

This never crossed my mind actually. I will try it

 

[Zepher]

That was never mentioned because the topic was increasing the fire power vs ground

Avatar increases hp, damage, armor and makes the unit spell immune,

 

[Raydin]

You have any better ideas???

 

[Zepher]

Research the phoenix fire ability, it has a damage giving buff, really look into it and tell me what you think

 

[Raydin]

You mean for anti ground

 

[Zepher]

Precisely, set up a mortar or flying machine projectile, and have the buff make the building take damage and look like it's on fire.

Also you can turn fan of knives into either an anti air ability (have a bunch of missiles shot at all air units around the ship) or alternatively you can make it so that it only fires several or 1 single but extremely powerful projectile at nearby ground unit(s) or structure(s) (probably better to go with a structure as the targets), see the results

 

[Lord Alyx]

Bombers and warships are 2 different types of air units, if its strictly a bomber it usually only attacks ground units, airships on the other hand attack everything, we have some really good ideas, but what Raydin needs to decide on is whether he is looking for a gunship/airship type of unit or strictly a bomber. A hybrid would be weird in practice because it would be good at both which dis-balances the gameplay.

My personal suggestion is go with a gunship that's powerful against structures, but not OP against then like your original unit

 

[Raydin]

My original unit was not strictly a bomber because it could attack air units,. It was a bomber in the sense that it only attacked ground units that were right below it

But I think i will go with the gunship idea Zepher proposed some excellent to ideas I'm experimenting with the metamorphosis idea at the moment

 

[Zepher]

Maybe something like the Giga Fortress from Red Aler 3 is what you're looking for

Skip to the 23 minute mark in the video below

 

[Raydin]

Woa, how would u create something like that in warcraft 3

 

[Zepher]

If you mean in terms of the attack, you could mimic the beam effect by giving the unit a projectile with a tail that has a very low cooldown to make it look like its continuous. For the unit you need an extremely heavy and slow floating unit. It wont be a problem finding a model on hive.

 

[Raydin]

Not what I intended
But very I interesting

 

[Lord Alyx]

Maybe something like the Giga Fortress from Red Aler 3 is what you're looking for

Skip to the 23 minute mark in the video below

From all the flying units in that game....you choose to suggest that particular one, if anything the Harbinger Gunship is a much more suitable unit for Raydin's purposes.

 

[Zepher]

I was not aware of the Harbinger, besides the harbinger is just an aircraft with a powerful cannon not unlike what you mentioned in your project, the only difference being is that it cant be stationary and has to keep flying in circles, I think the original bomber Raydin proposed is easier to develop in terms of the mechanics and is more effective on the battlefield.

 

[Lord Alyx]

You're just too lazy to experiment with new mechanics

My enthusiasm with such things is exactly what lead to progress in the development of new technologies/abilities in my project

 

[Zepher]

Sorry, but I don't have all day to fiddle with the editor

 

[Lord Alyx]

That's what separates pros from average joes

 

[Zepher]

You're right I just don't have the time at the moment, too many things to do in real life, otherwise I'd be experimenting with all this stuff

 

[Raydin]

Fan of knives works great against structures btw

Don't know why I didn't use this sooner

 

[Zepher]

@-Phoenix- This might sound like a stupid question but how do you make it an air only battle ? Take the ground units away? I can see other methods but they would interfere with the gameplay

 

[Lord Alyx]

Highly depends on what result you want, here are a few methods but these had campaign missions in mind not melee matches also *I have not personally tested all of them so if something doesn't exactly work don't blame me for the results

1) Have the player and his opponent start on islands where the only way to attack eachother is through airship combat

2) Have the player and his opponent start on hills and again make air units the only way to attack eachother

3) Similar to 2) but just make the terrain un-traversable for ground units, (basically lots of hills, rivers, forests, and other un-passable obstacles which block any ground path between the two sides and force the players to engage in air combat)

4) Like you mentioned only allow the building of air units

5) We had a mission where you are up against this duke, he has a large base and in the back of this base is his personal base with his castle, the inner (personal) base is separated from the outer one by a river which had 2 bridges that the player could technically cross, but as soon as the player got close to this area the duke would have his forces destroy the bridges in a cinematic(no way around this). So the only way the player could've finished the mission was by attacking the duke's personal base using airships (no goblin airships or other air transports were available in this mission)

6) There was another mission where the last base you had to destroy was on top of a mountain, now while in theory you could go around the mountain and eventually get to the top where the base was this was very impracticable because I) the base was very well defended/fortified against ground invasions and II) You had a certain amount of time to complete the mission, so unless the player had some god like skills he would have to go the air route

 

[Zepher]

5) We had a mission where you are up against this duke, he has a large base and in the back of this base is his personal base with his castle, the inner (personal) base is separated from the outer one by a river which had 2 bridges that the player could technically cross, but as soon as the player got close to this area the duke would have his forces destroy the bridges in a cinematic(no way around this). So the only way the player could've finished the mission was by attacking the duke's personal base using airships (no goblin airships or other air transports were available in this mission)

Unique example. When those bridges are burned does the Duke just defend or does he attack you with his own airships?

 

[Lord Alyx]

He attacks, but not only with airships, he also summons allied reinforcements from the east and west and and does other things I can't remember right now

 

[Zepher]

I played a campaign once, I think it was an unfinished beta actually, in one of the missions your army & hero go against this wizard or archsorcerer, I don't remember exactly. When you start beating him and get close to his castle guess what he does??

 

[Lord Alyx]

idk,

My two best guesses are:

1) Summoned lots of reinforcements

2) Tried to teleport his castle away (since you said the antagonist was a wizard or magic-user of some kind)

 

[Zepher]

The second one was close, but basically the castle flies away into the middle of a large nearby lake (idk how this worked trigger wise, they might've replaced the castle with an identical one that flies or done something else) and you had to get air units to take it down

 

[Lord Alyx]

Creative stuff, I think it was meant to show how wizards are escape artists if anything

That sounds like an awesome campaign to play, instead of the usual destroy the structures to win goal, you need to create flying units and go after the castle in mid-air to win

 

[cleavinghammer]

The Alisia Dragoon campaign has a level set in midair (you control a hero unit attacking groups of enemies and a giant airship) with the camera as a Third Person Shooter, most of the difficulty comes from the camera being wonky and avoiding spells and attacks. If you follow that route, I would suggest removing standard attacks and making every attack and spell a ground-targeting ability.

 

[Zepher]

You gotta give it to the authors of these missions, I mean that's not only some ingenious things but it switches the gameplay completely on you.

I mean in the map I mentioned you go from a normal melee type combat to training air units to destroy a floating castle, in what cleavinghammer mentioned you hunt down and destroy an airship in 3rd person and in what Phoenix mentioned you go from a melee situation into a battle where you must attack with air units only.

 

[Lord Alyx]

@Zepher

Idk about the Alisia example that was mentioned, but in my eyes what my example and yours both show is what lengths some leaders will go to in order to save their ass for lack of a better phrase

 

[Zepher]

That's true, but it mimics real life, what I was trying to point out was how these actions drastically alter the gameplay. I really like that element; you think you'll storm the castle with your troops & heroes but you end up having to level it with airships.

 

[Lord Alyx]

In a red alert 3 there's a mission where your enemy tries to save a time machine by airlifting it and flying it away after his base is destroyed, similarly you have to destroy the airship carrying the device to win

 

[Zepher]

Interesting as well

@-Phoenix- In that example with the duke or whoever destroying those bridges how much does the gameplay change as a result?

 

[Lord Alyx]

OK you go from invading his main base to gain access to his personal base to basically building up air units to destroy his personal base

 

[Zepher]

Is the base well prepared against air attacks?

 

[Lord Alyx]

I can't recall right now

 

[Rem]

you guys may wanna look at this

[Miscellanous / Other] - Heavy bomber prototype

 

[Lord Alyx]

I'll look into it,
btw in the duke mission once the bridges are down the duke upgrades lots of units, for example from scout towers to guard towers and archers have their hp upgraded to almost 600, as well as their range and damage

 

[Lord Alyx]

@Zepher ok I got it, Ill send you the stuff I managed to dig up shortly, but what I've found was an early beta stage map, only the following are complete:

Terrain
Duke's personal base and External base
Enemy Triggers

Trees and textures and missing on the bottom, forward base lacks units, lacks intro, I think some models may be missing

So all you're getting is basically an early beta, it has the personal base layout, the triggers for the mid cinematic, some customized units, but that's it.. so plz dont complain as that was all I could find

 

[Zepher]

No worries, I'm grateful for whatever you send me

 

[Lord Alyx]

so? first thoughts?

 

[Zepher]

Interesting map, would have loved to play the completed version