Balanced air unit

[Rem]

Can you guys give me any ideas for a well balanced air unit that goes for 3 food and is mostly effective against air and ground units

 

[Lord Aiden]

Like Phoenix said, a modified coatl with 680hp, but with several abilities; First off the orb of corruption ability that reduces any units armor by 2 or 3 points, then a modified envenomed weapons that damages structures by 5 damage/second with the corrosion buff. Although the unit would not have lots of hp it would be super effective against units and buildings.

 

[Rem]

thats good but im looking for other creative ideas

 

[Lord Aiden]

Here is what I had in mind:

 

[nedio95]

...mostly effective against air and ground units...

Those are 99% of the units you meet in a regular map or in any war3 map in general...
The only other types of unit that you'd need to fight are water(aquatic? forgot the correct classification) units...
And then you have the non-units, e.g. buildings, summons, and that's pretty much it.

If you are looking at something effective vs units, you are generally looking at having it deal some sort of spell/magic damage through abilities or passives, as buildings are mostly unaffected by those and some or most spells do not affect mechanical units.

For 3 Food I'd say you are looking at something similar to the Mutalisk or Banshee in StarCraft. Fast harasser for hit-n-run tactics, best used in small squadrons, does not like prolonged fights with things that can hit back.

300-500 hp.
Fast or medium attack speed with low to very low damage.
Give it some mana and a modified version of the auto-cast slow from Sorceress or a Frost arrow, some way to slow & boost it's damage. A way to slip off of bad situations.
Very fast movement speed or make it slow to slow-ish and give it an ability that boosts it's movement temporarily. I'd say the later so it could be caught off-guard when mobility ability is on cooldown.

That's my input for the moment, hope this helps!
-Ned

 

[Lord Alyx]

@Lord Aiden

I've just tested that unit of yours and its a bit too strong, you need to do one of the following

a) Increase its hp to ~750 but raise food cost to 4
b) Decrease hp to ~580 but keep food cost at 3
c) Basically make its hp much weaker like ~530 but have upgrades like animal war training bring it up to 680 hp, and make sure both those corrosive abilities have to be researched before they are available
d) Slow down its attack rate, I think this will balance it out, even if it has 680hp and does piercing damage, a cooldown of like 2.2 would make it pretty normalized

 

[Lord Aiden]

That's up to Rem to decide

 

[disruptive_]

You could say a 3 food air unit competes with Dragonhawk Rider (575 hp; ~20 pierce attack; vulnerable to pierce attacks, decent against other light armored units, mediocre in direct siege) in humans which is a defensive race i guess. I think the Dragonhawk in itself is a support or dedicated unit because of its abilities (cloud and aerial shackles, cloud to support a raid, and shackles to "trade" the dragonhawk for another air unit, let's say a frost wyrm). But this is not saying much. Maybe you can use the same stats, and add 1 offensive ability and 1 defensive ability, both that can be applied to air and ground units.
In the 3 food cost level is debatable if the unit could be massed or not, but a deciding factor would be the quality/recquirement of the abilities the unit has, because if they are too conditioned the unit losses massing potential in favor of other 3 food cost units. In the end effectivity is measured in comparisson with the other units available for the respective race/player, that's way i find a bit dull to debate if one isolated unit type is good per se or not.

 

[Lord Aiden]

@-Phoenix- I think I'd choose option c) except the hp stays at 680, while all the other abilities have to be researched

@disruptive_ Can't really compare this to Dragonhawk Riders because their Aerial Shackle can take down a frost wyrm

 

[ArchDuke]

@Lord Aiden Your 680HP Coatl would get spammed like crazy, its good against air, ground units and buildings

 

[Lord Aiden]

If you check the attack type vs defense table piercing attacks do 100% vs heavy armor and 75% vs medium armor, the couatl would not do heavy damage to any ground unit since most ground units have heavy armor and would definitely not be at an advantage against anti-air units like rifleman, archers, berserkers, etc. because piercing does 75% to medium armor. The unit is only great against other air units and structures because of the corrosive buff.

 

[ArchDuke]

In the map you provided the coatl destroys a rifleman 1 on 1 with ease, a rifleman is a 3 food unit just like the coatl

 

[Lord Aiden]

Yea, you're right about that, but the Couatl's attack damage hasn't been properly adjusted, and plus the Couatl appears as it would when fully upgraded while the rifleman has no upgrades.

It could get spammed but as Phoenix pointed out you get 100 food, assuming that player's race is human you need 10 food for workers: 5 for the mine, and an additional 5 to harvest lumber

After that you need some kind of an army to defend your base, usually this would consist of like 3 heavy tier 3 units (3*4 food) plus anti air (3*3 food) and spellcasters (3*2 food) That's 27 food

10 food + 27 food = 37 food, that leaves you with 63 food. You could spam 21 couatls but a good amount of rifleman, towers and especially siege engines will get rid of them.

 

[disruptive_]

I'm bringing the Dragonhawk because the thread starter said she wants ideas for a "balanced 3 food cost air unit". In vanilla wc3 Dragonhawk Rider is the only 3 food cost air unit (please correct this if you know other units).

The Couotl on steroids idea you guys are bringing can be a choice, but you must now start comparing it to the other 3 food cost units the respective race can train. In case of the humans (i will not bring other races) you are comparing it with an actual unit, which is the DH rider (in this case the comparisson is kind of bad because the DHR is a supportive unit, with very dedicated abilities, while the Couotl is kind of a vanilla unit without an actual active skill, that is meant to hit things i guess). You must also compare it to the Rifleman, another 3 food cost unit, with no active skills and made to hit ground and air things with the boomstick (kind of like your idea), but that is terrible in sieges because of it's pierce damage. But suddenly the Couotl with the modified envenomed spears you suggested does something that the Rifleman can't even dream of, while beign an air attacker itself. But also it has higher base HP than the Rifleman (you suggested 680 HP) and higher damage (i think is 40~). I'm pretty sure this leaves the Rifleman obsolete, because there not a real reason to not prefer training a Couotl, unless you put a tremendous drawback on the unit (maybe attack range, speed or something).

 

[Lord Aiden]

Yea, you're right about that, but the Couatl's attack damage hasn't been properly adjusted, and plus the Couatl appears as it would when fully upgraded while the rifleman has no upgrades.

 

[Lord Alyx]

If you check the attack type vs defense table piercing attacks do 100% vs heavy armor and 75% vs medium armor, the couatl would not do heavy damage to any ground unit since most ground units have heavy armor and would definitely not be at an advantage against anti-air units like rifleman, archers, berserkers, etc. because piercing does 75% to medium armor. The unit is only great against other air units and structures because of the corrosive buff.

I see your point, just need to tweak the attack damage then

I'm bringing the Dragonhawk because the thread starter said she wants ideas for a "balanced 3 food cost air unit". In vanilla wc3 Dragonhawk Rider is the only 3 food cost air unit (please correct this if you know other units).

The Couotl on steroids idea you guys are bringing can be a choice, but you must now start comparing it to the other 3 food cost units the respective race can train. In case of the humans (i will not bring other races) you are comparing it with an actual unit, which is the DH rider (in this case the comparisson is kind of bad because the DHR is a supportive unit, with very dedicated abilities, while the Couotl is kind of a vanilla unit without an actual active skill, that is meant to hit things i guess). You must also compare it to the Rifleman, another 3 food cost unit, with no active skills and made to hit ground and air things with the boomstick (kind of like your idea), but that is terrible in sieges because of it's pierce damage. But suddenly the Couotl with the modified envenomed spears you suggested does something that the Rifleman can't even dream of, while beign an air attacker itself. But also it has higher base HP than the Rifleman (you suggested 680 HP) and higher damage (i think is 40~). I'm pretty sure this leaves the Rifleman obsolete, because there not a real reason to not prefer training a Couotl, unless you put a tremendous drawback on the unit (maybe attack range, speed or something).

I don't think dragonhawks were in the original wc3, only in the tft expansion

Lord Aiden said the damage will get changed to balance the thing, but hey if you have any better ideas let's hear them, also remember that the aerial shackle spell does 1200 total damage to any aerial unit if carried to completion, this will destroy any regular flying unit except the frost wyrm, and even if it doesn't destroy the frost wyrm a dragonhawk rider will easily take care of it itself if it has around 200 hp left.

 

[Lord Aiden]

@-Phoenix- I think its 900 damage rather than 1200 damage, that was in an older version, still a group of 5 dragonhawks along with 5 flying machines can wipe an entire flying force off the sky if done right

 

[Lord Alyx]

This is off topic, but how would you even defend against aerial shackle?

 

[ArchDuke]

@-Phoenix-

If you're playing the original tft there isn't much you can do besides 1) destroy the dragonhawk rider channeling the spell or 2) use some sort of disruptive spell on the dragonhawk rider
Also I believe the spell can't be cast on mechanical units such as flying machines

If you're modifying wc3 to suit your needs you can give flying units resistant skin so that the aerial shackle can only effect them for 10 seconds, you can also modifying who the spell can be cast on....

This spell is precisely why dragon hawk riders are a pain btw

 

[Lord Alyx]

Ok back on the subject, try lower the attack to around 20-25 I think it should balance things out enough

 

[Lord Aiden]

Ok back on the subject, try lower the attack to around 20-25 I think it should balance things out enough

I just tried that out (and I lowered the couatl's cooldown from 1.8 to 1.6 to be fair), and a rifleman easily destroyed that couatl with like 180hp remaining

 

[Lord Alyx]

You can raise the attack by a few points for balancing purposes.

If I was doing this for my campaign at this point I would leave the food cost at 3 but either leave its hp at 680 and reduce its attack damage like what @Lord Aiden had done or alternatively lower its hp to 550 or 580 and keep the attack damage at 42-50 or whatever it was originally, I think I would prefer the first option thought as the second one would lead the player to performing sudden rush attacks (blitzkrieg type assaults)

 

[Rem]

id prefer the 680hp low attack version i even mentioned that i didnt want raids/rushes which is what u get with high attack damage

 

[Lord Alyx]

No one wants a rush ?

 

[Lord Aiden]

I think you mentioned before how you prefer a long game to a 10-15 minute rush match, Phoenix

 

[Lord Alyx]

Yea you're right. But I was referring to chapters in a campaign

 

[disruptive_]

I see your point, just need to tweak the attack damage then



I don't think dragonhawks were in the original wc3, only in the tft expansion

Lord Aiden said the damage will get changed to balance the thing, but hey if you have any better ideas let's hear them, also remember that the aerial shackle spell does 1200 total damage to any aerial unit if carried to completion, this will destroy any regular flying unit except the frost wyrm, and even if it doesn't destroy the frost wyrm a dragonhawk rider will easily take care of it itself if it has around 200 hp left.

So the request was a balanced, 3 food cost, air unit, plus a creative flair. I have some questions and comments first.
1. I think you guys are known for testing the balance of units. And i trust your research.
The thing is that in a game, balance is more complex, and throwing a bunch of sea serpents against a bunch of bearded dwarfs will surely won't have enough authority in balance. I think balance is something the map maker will achieve by constant feedback of the testers, but some research is surely not bad.
2. Does the unit has to be themed? I say this because if i would play an RTS game or any game at all, if i pick a race that is called Humans or Orcs and i can actually train a purple flying mantarraya from outer space (Couotl) i will be a bit confused. But that's just me, so i'm asking the question first. I think Rem could give some clues about what kind of race or even specific unit model would suit better her request.
3. Is it desired for the unit to have active abilities? or only passives? What about triggers? triggered abilities are so much fun.

I always loved the flying machin model, so a quick idea:
1. Name: Dwarven Air Support.
2. Stats: 15-23 pierce damage, 2.0 attack cooldown, 4 light armor, fast movement, 3 food cost, 500 health.
3. Skills: Paint Target (reduces armor of the target by 5, gives vision, optional: gives nearby allies +20% attack speed), Supply Drop (leaves a create in the target point, after 5 seconds the crate will heal allied units by small amount).
4. Concept: a support unit, can help taking down units (air or ground) faster, but also provides some marginal defensive heal (supply drop should give at best 50 HP).

5. Triggers:
4.1. Paint target is just faerie fire, if you like the addition you will need some timers, but the concept is basically giving the target unit a endurance aura that affects enemies (you still need timers tho).
4.2. Supply Drop, i actually tested this right now, but i have to go, here is the map with a very hastily made ability (i followed the "less triggers" possible approach). Tweak the dummy fan of knives to modify the effects (aoe and hp gain).

 

[Lord Alyx]

Ok, Im not sure which themed unit Rem wanted, but the Couatl can be replaced with a small dragon model and there are a variety of different themed dragon models out there, so the Couatl model itself is replaceable, however the concept itself was what was really important in my opinion

 

[ArchDuke]

I think people miss out one key point when deciding to create air units; you're making air units based on what was previously presented in wc3, but in wc3 the air units of each side are meant to complement eachother
let me illustrate this:

Humans

Gryphon Riders are good at attacking ground units, but are relatively weak against structures and air units
Dragonhawk riders are good against air (both their attack and their aerial shackle ability) and can stop structures from firing (their cloud ability)
Flying machines are good against air and are decent against structures


Orcs
Wind riders are good against air and ok against ground units (they have envenomed spears)
Bat riders are ok against ground and excellent against buildings (their liquid fire deals damage to buildings plus slows down their attack)

Undead
Gargoyles are excellent against air units, massing them can also help against regular ground units and structures
Frost Wyrms are excellent against ground units, good against air, can freeze structures and prevent them from attacking, also slow down other units (excellent overall)
Destroyers are good against ground units

Nightelves
Chimaeras are good against ground units and structures
Hippogryphs are good against flying units
Hippogryph Riders are good against flying units and can attack ground
Faerie dragons are good against spellcasters

As you can see the flying units of each side complement eachother to make sure each side has a "complete" arsenal
When trying to create a completely new unit you need to see how that unit needs to function rather than how that units fits with the previously established units

 

[Lord Alyx]

Very valid point.

Also your analysis reveals just how few units are good against structures in wc3, I mean without massing only the chimaera can inflict some good damage against a fortified base.

 

[ArchDuke]

Here are some units in case you don't wanna go with the couatl
Reptilian Scavenger
drake2
NazjatarLeviathan.blp
HeroMoonPriestess