Abortion

[GST_Nemisis]

To say it isnt a human. Is stupid. To say it isnt living. Is just ignorant.

i could quite easily say your opinoins are stupid....i could quite easily say you are a lemming that has run of the religous cliff....i could quite easily say alot of things. but they would be opinoins too, so there is no point.

 

[SuPa-]

You say it's OK for her to make her life easy by killing something? Well guess what, there's a few people at my school that I absolutely hate, and if I could kill them and get away with it that'd make my life way easier! But it's still wrong, because they'll most likely straighten out later... and it'd be absolutely stupid to. No one deserves to die just so it'll make your life easier, since they've most likely done nothing wrong enough to deserve death. That's completely selfish. So, since the fetus has the complete potential to live on, I guess now it's okay to kill 20 year olds, because the fetus would most likely develop in just that.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Torture involves pain. As far as I know, I never said that I was for painful abortions on the child's part. In fact, I'm against it. Read the whole thing. I said once the foetus becomes a being, who can feel pain, then abortion becomes murder.

Abortion is justified in extreme cases. And last I checked a comatose patient is a being, with feelings, with organs, with decision, but it is just locked away for an indefinite time, more like it can't be used, but they are there. Foetus don't have those.

And a baby does have organs

You're right. A baby has organs. Not a 1 month old foetus.

And the grandpa example is a good comparison of killing an "inconvenience".

For one, use arguments, else you contribute nothing to the discussion. And no, killing cells and killing a grandpa cannot be the same thing. The grandpa feels. The grandpa is a being. The foetus is a bunch of undevelopped cells. I'll say it again, it doesn't feel, it isn't a "being".

If you want to kill innocent children, then you might as well get rid of the double standard and legalize murder, thievery, torture, domestic violance abuse, child abuse, HECK just throw out all the laws. LETS KILL AND MAIM EVERYTHING!!!

This is ridiculous. It's like saying, hey, we've already exploded a firework, let's buy a dangerous amount of them and explode them in our house!
It's ignoring the borders of moral. There are countless reasons why such a statement is a completly invalid argument, and I won't list them all.
Just remember, these children you speak of, haev nothing to do with abortiong. You know why? Because they're children. Abortion is getting rid of a foetus, which I will remind you again, is a bunch of undevelopped cells.

And since when does abortion relate to child abuse, domestic violence, theivery and all other law? It doesn't even relate to murder either, because it's a bunch of undevelopped cells.

"Killing" a foetus is terrible sacrifice of human potential, but it's just that, potential. It's sad to know that such a thing will never come to live, but it never did, so it never missed anything, and besides, it can be useful, even necessary for reasons mentioned above.

 

[Infinitynexus]

Kek, silly thing coming up:

In the 4th texture contest, there was this rainbow man thingy.. sure, it was an undeveloped version of a skin.. and guess what, nobody gave a shit either xD

 

[Elenai]

These opinions matter when the saftey of the future generations of children are dangling by a thread because selfish people want to kill them.

And I would rather be a religious "lemming" with a soul that is clean and and believe in the sanctity of life, than a secular humanist who supports the murder of children.

AND A FETUS IS NOT A BUNCH OF undeveloped cells. THAT is a lie pushed by the pro-abortionist supporters.

Its an undeveloped human being.

And it is a being. Because it is human.

 

[Hakeem]

(that specific quote was from Hakeem)

I was saying that because WILL said adoption is a life of hell.

I don't agree with him either (on the mentally handicapped bit), but I don't think he's stupid. Please consider another stance than "Everyone has a right to my opinion."

+

And you just judged me! woop woop!

From what he said I deemed him simple minded and judgeable. Also, I don't even have an opinion unless I know enough about a subject.
"Everyone has a right to an opinion." But morons opinions don't help much do they? (No, I'm not calling Infinitynexus a moron.)

[Edit: On a related note, I love these topics, they are a great source of laughs]

Yes. Jolly good fun.

 

[Infinitynexus]

I must say, this experiment is going according to plan.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

AND A FETUS IS NOT A BUNCH OF undeveloped cells.

Wait, I just checked.

A foetus is after 3 months. So it techincally IS a being.

So what is the thing before it? The thing that CAN be removed without murder, the thing that IS removed during abortion?

Guess what?

A bunch of undevelopped cells.

So yeah I was wrong, and at the same time, right.

 

[SuPa-]

Killing a fetus, yes, you are killing, murdering, which ever word you chose... you are doing that to it. Because it's a living thing. It develops, it uses energy, it is its own form despite being highly dependent. It has all the aspects that define something to be alive.

 

[Elenai]

Indeed. Supa is yet again correct.

 

[GST_Nemisis]

And I would rather be a religious "lemming" with a soul that is clean and and believe in the sanctity of life, than a secular humanist who supports the murder of children.

lol, thats a strange thing to say because you may only believe you have a soul because of your religion, therfore you only have a clean soul because of your religion, and all your opinoins in this argument are directly derived from your religion. it seems a very controlled view to me.

AND A FETUS IS NOT A BUNCH OF undeveloped cells. THAT is a lie pushed by the pro-abortionist supporters.

while this is true, a foetus is only a foetus after 8 weeks of pregnancy, before that it is embryotic cells which is really what will is talking about.

 

[Infinitynexus]

Killing a fetus, yes, you are killing, murdering, which ever word you chose... you are doing that to it. Because it's a living thing. It develops, it uses energy, it is its own form despite being highly dependent. It has all the aspects that define something to be alive.

Oh man, that quote was just too good to pass up.. hrm, lets see, there is another lifeform that reminds me of humans.. we multiply, extinguish natural resources, move on, repeat.

Kinda like a virus, eh? also develops, also uses energy, it has own form yet is highly dependant. woop!

 

[Elenai]

My view is not only stemming from my faith in Christ. But by my knowledge of the sanctity of life.

And an embryo is still a human. It is still alive, It is still murder to kill it.


And Stop with the "woop!" it is stupid.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Wait, I just checked.

A foetus is after 3 months. So it techincally IS a being.

So what is the thing before it? The thing that CAN be removed without murder, the thing that IS removed during abortion?

Guess what?

A bunch of undevelopped cells.

So yeah I was wrong, and at the same time, right.

Just to repeat myself.

Indeed. Supa is yet again correct.

You say this as if this was fact, and it is not. It is an opinion, so he is not correct, and not wrong.
Because someone sees things your way, doesn't mean he's right.
Just like because someone doesn't see things my way, doesn't mean he's wrong.

@Infinity: LOL! Matrix Smith Quote!

EDIT: Yes an embryo is living, but it's about as living as a sweat gland is. So I wouldn't really say that's "living". That's like saying we,re mudering because we're killing germs, which are about as much alive as embryos. So on other words, we,re all massive serial killers.

 

[Elenai]

In a world were absolute truths exist. He is correct. And because absolute truths exist. He is correct.


I have to go now.....I will return to defend the right for unborn children to live, tomorrow.

 

[PurplePoot]

What is a fetus....Its just an unborn undeveloped version of ..GASP!!! A baby.

Please... you keep raising this, and we keep bringing up that somewhere down the line, tons of things fit into the same category, but you don't consider that the same >_> (eg eggs; they're DEFINITELY undeveloped babies)

You cannot prove that is it justified.

There are a ton of things you can't prove, it doesn't mean they should be ignored. Also, you obviously can't prove something that's an opinionated subject, due to the fact that morals aren't necessarily "right" or "wrong", it all depends on what people consider they are.

Pfft, Just because you cant support the child does not give you the right to kill it. It is a living human baby. To kill it is murder. To say it isnt a human. Is stupid. To say it isnt living. Is just ignorant. And since it isnt a 5-12 year old, or a teen, or an adult....then it must be a baby.

My computer isn't a 5-12-year old, a teen, or an adult either. Is IT a baby?

And do not call me stupid Infinitynexus: I am quite intelligent. I was delving into encyclopedias while you were still looking at the pictures of Dr.Seus's cat in the hat.

He was joking, and flaming him won't make you look smart...

You say it's OK for her to make her life easy by killing something? Well guess what, there's a few people at my school that I absolutely hate, and if I could kill them and get away with it that'd make my life way easier! But it's still wrong, because they'll most likely straighten out later... and it'd be absolutely stupid to. No one deserves to die just so it'll make your life easier, since they've most likely done nothing wrong enough to deserve death. That's completely selfish. So, since the fetus has the complete potential to live on, I guess now it's okay to kill 20 year olds, because the fetus would most likely develop in just that.

Which brings back the debate of whether you consider that alive in the sense. (And don't go on about it being alive at all, because farm animals, insects, etc are alive too. I'm talking about the point where you consider it to be human)

If you want to kill innocent children, then you might as well get rid of the double standard and legalize murder, thievery, torture, domestic violance abuse, child abuse, HECK just throw out all the laws. LETS KILL AND MAIM EVERYTHING!!!

If you're getting desperate, please at least try to think up arguments as to bad interpretations of what we're saying.

AND A FETUS IS NOT A BUNCH OF undeveloped cells. THAT is a lie pushed by the pro-abortionist supporters.

Oh? (valid) [citation needed]

These opinions matter when the saftey of the future generations of children are dangling by a thread because selfish people want to kill them.

And I would rather be a religious "lemming" with a soul that is clean and and believe in the sanctity of life, than a secular humanist who supports the murder of children.

It depends on what you constitute murder, you don't seem to be able to get that through your head...

Oh, also, it depends if you believe in souls either.

I must say, this experiment is going according to plan.

Totally.

You say this as if this was fact, and it is not. It is an opinion, so he is not correct, and not wrong.
Because someone sees things your way, doesn't mean he's right.
Just like because someone doesn't see things my way, doesn't mean he's wrong.

QFT

 

[Hakeem]

Ok, lets organize:
Killing humans is wrong,
If it has a brain, it human and killing it is wrong,
But before that, when it's an indifferent blob of cells, is that a human that should not be killed?

-------------------
-------------------

It's not a baby!
It's a bunch of cells! It's less than an organ!

Just because it is smaller than an organ doesn't mean it's not a human. See the ant example.

It can't think.

So a mind is what you consider human?

It can't feel.
It can't see.
It can't sense pain.

So?

It can't move.

Wrong.

It has no conscience.

Same as 'think'.

It has no "organs".

Again. Ant.

It doesn't have any power of decision.
It has no opinion.

So?

It has no awareness of what could happen.

So?

 

[SuPa-]

Actually a virus isn't proven to use energy and that is why it is still classified as a non-living thing... I think lol. So (I think) your comparison isn't correct, but IDK... I didn't pay much attention in life science in 7th grade and I don't remember much of what I learned

I consider a human egg to be a human once the egg is fertilized. Why? Because once it is fertilized it has the complete potential to become a living, breathing baby boy or girl. If I had a wife and she become pregnant, and then someone caused the fetus/embryo inside her to die, especially if it was intentionally meant to harm her/developing baby, I would be completely infuriated and if I could, I'd beat the shit out of the guy until he begged for mercy. I'd hate to have a child slip away like that from my fingers in cold blood.

 

[Elenai]

I never flamed him. Eggs we eat are usually not fertilized=not a baby. Morals are right and wrong, There is absolute truth about right and wrong, and your citation is found in BASIC BIOLOGY AND HEALTH CLASS.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

In a world were absolute truths exist. He is correct. And because absolute truths exist. He is correct.

According to you. So it's not fact (because if you looked through well-known science and biology knowledge (And I'd like to remind you that such things are indisputable) about pregnancy and cells, and the definition of a living being, you'd find there are many facts countering this), therefore making it an opinion, therefore making it pointless to keep using as an argument.

@Hakeem: ants have organs too, you know. And I was not talking about size when comparing it to an organ. A mind, a conscience makes a human a human. And separates it from beast. it is life, but it is such minimal life, it is barely worse than exterminating a weed.

 

[PurplePoot]

Actually a virus isn't proven to use energy and that is why it is still classified as a non-living thing... I think lol

It's actually classified as non-living since it needs to use another being(/species) to reproduce.

I never flamed him. Eggs we eat are usually not fertilized=not a baby. Morals are right and wrong, There is absolute truth about right and wrong, and your citation is found in BASIC BIOLOGY AND HEALTH CLASS.

Your whole 'you were reading dr. seuss' thing was sorta on the edge.

As for the egg part, you keep saying that automatically at fertilization the cluster of cells is human. I'm saying why not before?

And morals are not right and wrong (in a broad spectrum of time), they depend upon the ideals of the era.

Todays "right" morals could be ridiculous tomorrow.

 

[iron_warrior]

When it all comes down to it...

For all those who are against stem-cell research, which could cure diseases and save lives, you have to consider this...

Consider this. Tomorrow you are going to die of Super Disease. There is no cure for Super Disease, because when you won the Become The President For A Day! lottery (Courtesy of Prez. Swartzanegger) you made Stem Cell research illegal. If Stem Cell research was legal, you wouldn't be dead. Oh sure, this is a hypothetical situation, but there are plenty of people out there who's opinions have changed because someone close could have been cured. So you've only got one question to ask yourself...

Do I feel lucky?

Well-do ya?...PUNK?!

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

So a mind is what you consider human?

Actually, yes. The mind is what makes you you (hehe, It's awkward to read that instead of hear it). Without the mind, a human can be alive and just sit there, but in reality, it's nothing more than a corpse.

When it all comes down to it...

For all those who are against stem-cell research, which could cure diseases and save lives, you have to consider this...

Consider this. Tomorrow you are going to die of Super Disease. There is no cure for Super Disease, because when you won the Become The President For A Day! lottery (Courtesy of Prez. Swartzanegger) you made Stem Cell research illegal. If Stem Cell research was legal, you wouldn't be dead. Oh sure, this is a hypothetical situation, but there are plenty of people out there who's opinions have changed because someone close could have been cured. So you've only got one question to ask yourself...

Do I feel lucky?

Well-do ya?...PUNK?!

That would technically be taking advantage of someone's emotions and hindering unbiased thought. Nice quote, though.

 

[Hakeem]

Oh man, that quote was just too good to pass up.. hrm, lets see, there is another lifeform that reminds me of humans.. we multiply, extinguish natural resources, move on, repeat.

Kinda like a virus, eh? also develops, also uses energy, it has own form yet is highly dependant. woop!

Your simplicity does not amaze me.

As for the egg part, you keep saying that automatically at fertilization the cluster of cells is human. I'm saying why not before?

Because by themselves an egg and sperm wont naturally develop into a human.

Actually, yes. The mind is what makes you you (hehe, It's awkward to read that instead of hear it). Without the mind, a human can be alive and just sit there, but in reality, it's nothing more than a corpse.

Ok. I admit it. A mind makes it human.
However, if you killed it the instant before it had a mind, I would complain. If you killed it immediately after fertilization, I can't complain.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Wow.. viruses aren't even alive, last i heard.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

When it all comes down to it...

For all those who are against stem-cell research, which could cure diseases and save lives, you have to consider this...

Consider this. Tomorrow you are going to die of Super Disease. There is no cure for Super Disease, because when you won the Become The President For A Day! lottery (Courtesy of Prez. Swartzanegger) you made Stem Cell research illegal. If Stem Cell research was legal, you wouldn't be dead. Oh sure, this is a hypothetical situation, but there are plenty of people out there who's opinions have changed because someone close could have been cured. So you've only got one question to ask yourself...

Do I feel lucky?

Well-do ya?...PUNK?!

Now we're going into stem cell research... which is a ridiculously retarded subject as there is no reason why it should be illegal, except for cloning complete humans or animals (not only organs though), and even then the only use is absolutly greedy and wrong, which makes it useless anyway.

 

[PurplePoot]

Actually, yes. The mind is what makes you you (hehe, It's awkward to read that instead of hear it). Without the mind, a human can be alive and just sit there, but in reality, it's nothing more than a corpse.

"You say kenny, but I say TOMATO!"

"You say tomato, but we say KENNY!"

"TOMATO!"

"KENNY!"

(south park ftw... that's from one where kenny is "resurrected?" but is a vegetable, and god needs him in heaven to stop the armies of satan... it's called Best Friends Forever)

When it all comes down to it...

For all those who are against stem-cell research, which could cure diseases and save lives, you have to consider this...

Consider this. Tomorrow you are going to die of Super Disease. There is no cure for Super Disease, because when you won the Become The President For A Day! lottery (Courtesy of Prez. Swartzanegger) you made Stem Cell research illegal. If Stem Cell research was legal, you wouldn't be dead. Oh sure, this is a hypothetical situation, but there are plenty of people out there who's opinions have changed because someone close could have been cured. So you've only got one question to ask yourself...

Do I feel lucky?

Well-do ya?...PUNK?!

QFT

 

[Infinitynexus]

Woop? guess who also needs another being to reproduce? kek, a human! (though that doesnt quite count in our day and age, lol)

 

[PurplePoot]

No, another species altogether

 

[SuPa-]

Last time I checked they now have developed a type of stem cell research that doesn't harm the baby. Why would cloning a human ever be illegal? It is the same as a regular baby, it goes through all the same processes, it's about exactly the same except for the fact it uses another humans DNA and genetic patterns

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

"You say kenny, but I say TOMATO!"

"You say tomato, but we say KENNY!"

"TOMATO!"

"KENNY!"

(south park ftw... that's from one where kenny is "resurrected?" but is a vegetable, and god needs him in heaven to stop the armies of satan... it's called Best Friends Forever)

Delicious?

Last time I checked they now have developed a type of stem cell research that doesn't harm the baby.

That does nothing to the debate, as we are discussing the morality behind our current method.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Which makes it a perfect and totally moral way to research in things that could very well save millions of lives.

OT: Yo mama so fat, When Obi-wan saw her he said "That's no moon... THAT'S YO MAMMA!"

Cloning a human could be illegal, not saying it should though. It's just that clonging someone is pointless. Apart from stealing it's organs, which is just plain wrong.

If they can just take one cell of a certain organ and manage to clone it to be used in something else, than that is a miracle.

 

[Infinitynexus]

ROFL @ WILL.

I dont care how many ppl they kill if they can help more ppl, lol

Its kind of like I dont approve paying terrorists 5 million dollars to give up lets say 10 hostages... that 5 million dollars is gonna get hundreds of ppl killed, kek

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

OT:My avatar is a 56k nightmare, isn't it?

I don't even want to argue about abortion anymore. This strange peace is nice.

Good night.

 

[Soviet.Kazak]

The murder(AKA abortion) of an embryo will not be mourned by the mother or anyone else. However, people will mourn the death of a loved one who died of an illness that could have been cured through stem cell research.

 

[SuPa-]

Infinity, saying that really makes you look like you deserve to die. Why you ask? Because you're saying you wouldn't mind yourself dying. I know you can't really put a "deserves to die" label on someone, but a human being, every human being, is worth no amount of money thinkable.

"I dont care how many ppl they kill if they can help more ppl, lol" Go die to help people then. Now. Exactly, you most likely don't want to. You probably treasure your life. You want to live. You don't care about other people, but you're perfectly fine with other people giving up their lives to help others through murder. But not yourself. That is absolutely selfish and ridiculous. Now, you may say "SuPa- I doubt you'd want to die for other people by getting murdered when you're still inside your mother" No, I would not want to die. But I don't want others to die in such a way either. That's the big boundary.

That's because they don't care about the unborn baby. They don't care for it to die. They want it to die. They thinks it's a disgusting thing inside them they want out. This is what I think.

 

[DarkDenizen]

DarkDenizen ponders: What separates us from animals? It's the way our mind functions, along with our level of consciousness. Think of the fetus's level of brain functionality/consciousness. It's very small, less than some animals. Since the only real difference between humans and other animals is how our brain works, this effectively renders the fetus an animal. Sure, it has the potential to grow into a fully fledged human being, but the fact remains, IT IS NOT THERE YET. Society today has no problem with killing animals of a higher functionality than a fetus for sport, let alone sustenance, so what makes the fetus that much different?

 

[Soviet.Kazak]

Non-subject related: SuPa-, did you ever submit that warthog model?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

The murder(AKA abortion) of an unborn baby will not be mourned by the mother or anyone else. However, people will mourn the death of a loved one who died of an illness that could have been cured through stem cell research.

Baby perhaps. Embryo, no.

 

[Soviet.Kazak]

Baby perhaps. Embryo, no.

Why is it no for the embryo?

 

[Infinitynexus]

Im surprised you were the only one who took the bait, Supa.

Take a real good look at my previous posts, do you sense a pattern there?

 

[SuPa-]

Kazak... I'll finish it when I damn feel like it. Mention it again in another thread besides the halo model one and I'll just delete the model file, the texture, and everything relating to it. -_-

Infinity, how about you stop posting in this thread then? You're disgusting me

 

[PurplePoot]

Because the embryo is sort of below the accepted line for "What is a conscious human"

Monkeys evolved into humans, but we don't treat them as humans. (they're not!)

Embryos grow into humans, but they're (also) not there yet, yes? A tiny cluster of cells isn't really what I'd call a human.

 

[Soviet.Kazak]

No need to get angry. I was just curious if you had finished it or not.

 

[DarkDenizen]

Item #1
Soviet, I hardly think this is the place for that. PMs are there for a reason.
Item #2

Infinity, how 'bout you stop posting in this thread then? You're disgusting me

QFT.
Item #3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soviet.Kazak View Post
The murder(AKA abortion) of an unborn baby will not be mourned by the mother or anyone else. However, people will mourn the death of a loved one who died of an illness that could have been cured through stem cell research.

Baby perhaps. Embryo, no.

Baby perhaps? The operative word here is unborn. How can you miss the baby that you've never seen, never talked to, never related to?

 

[Infinitynexus]

Rofl, oh man, this is awesome, keep it up

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

They want it to die. They thinks it's a disgusting thing inside them they want out. This is what I think.

Whoever thinks that is not getting an abortion for good reasons. And I doubt anyone would consider it something disgusting, considering they were once that was well.

 

[SuPa-]

If they want it to die I doubt they'd think it's a pleasant little creature inside them.

 

[donut3.5]

If they want it to die I doubt they'd think it's a pleasant little creature inside them.

Could you say the same for people who want to put their dogs to sleep?
--donut3.5--

 

[Infinitynexus]

Well, all supas arguments have fallen, he wants to kill me, see my blood, make me cry, etc etc.

Teh winnar and neuw Champeeen!