On a possible gem/shard system - The Good, the Bad & the Ugly

[Hawajska]

1st picture looks like epic wallpaper for epic W3 rpg

 

[ALEXz407]

Though you have to say that the riderless horse model is almost perfect for this stuff, since there is almost no movement of the horseback on both stand and walk animation. I guess other units won't look that good.

Bears and spiders can also be used. Just need to prevent bear's sit animation.

Pack horse can be acceptable too i guess, just place rider a bit higher. (if minor clipping with bags is not critical).

And if really do not bother with clipping, riderless kodo can be used (but front bag will stuck into the hero, maybe even through him

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Just tested it out with the wolf and despite the "jumping" of the wolf when walking it looked surprisingly well (in fact, I think it looks better than the horse for the simple reason that the horse model is just ugly as fuck).
Also, added a saddle object as a hero attachment when mounted, to cover up that the rider sits slightly higher on the wolf to prevent clipping on the bouncy walk cycles.

Bears and spiders can also be used. Just need to prevent bear's sit animation.

Pack horse can be acceptable too i guess, just place rider a bit higher. (if minor clipping with bags is not critical).

And if really do not bother with clipping, riderless kodo can be used (but front bag will stuck into the hero, maybe even through him

All these units are not that good for some other reasons than clipping:
- the riderless kodo looks dumb when moving fast
- the mule has too much stuff on his back to properly place the hero there
- the spider has no place to sit on
- I can not prevent the sitting animation of the bear, unfortunately :/


However, there are several other unit models that do work:
- warthog (this one could look really good!)
- green/red/blue lizard
- mammoth (basicly the kodo with a run animation and without the junk on the back)
- lobstrokk
- crypt fiend
- scarab
- arachnid
- snapdragon
- turtle

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Is the Hydra a possibility? That would probably be my favorite.

Also out of complete curiosity, as I'm completely ignorant on this issue, would flying creatures (without the actually ability to "fly") be possibilities?

 

[Ihazdialup]

The mounts look/sound really cool, it'd be nice to unlock better mounts at higher levels that all require quests , starting at like level 10

 

[Jumbo]

I think the basic mounts should be aquired at lvl 30 at the earliest. The early game is short enough as it is, and there is a lot going on at that point. The 30s are kinda a middle ground where the player is weak and trying to get strong in the Foothills area.

EDIT:
Maybe even make a quest out of some the mounts. Like the wolf could be achieved through a quest in the snow area. You have to tame a wolf and then pay (a considerable amount of gold) for riding teaching to complete the quest (and thus getting the mount).

 

[Ihazdialup]

I was thinking the quest is be around trade route point and be very minimal boost, like 5% or 10% or something

 

[galactcus]

for the horse, maybe a skin change would be nice... so we can have 3 kind of mount (wolf, horse and spider OR bristleback)

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Is the Hydra a possibility? That would probably be my favorite.

Would look ugly, the heads swing back hard, clipping through the heroes' head.

Also out of complete curiosity, as I'm completely ignorant on this issue, would flying creatures (without the actually ability to "fly") be possibilities?

Most of them bounce up and down really hard. But there are some models that qualify.

The problem is: it would be really lame to have a flying mount and not actually be able to fly, right?

@others:
I know you guys like to get hyped on new stuff, but don't expect too much of this feature. The number of units that qualify for this is very limited and I personally don't want to blow this out of proportion.

There will be a cheaper "starter mount" and a selection of "endgame" mounts for a higher cost. I won't import custom models for that, so we have to deal with whatever is available in the game by default.
Quests will probably not be implemented for that. I want to concentrate on the new stuff.

 

[Jumbo]

Haha Zwieb you are so right about us being like little teenage fans every time new content comes out . Well about 6-7 years ago when you started working on the map I WAS 15-16 years old, so I suppose the reactions of that age are sticking with me when related to Gaias.

Zwieb what are your thoughts on the level requirements of the different mount tiers? In my opinion (as stated above) giving the mount too early will be a bad idea since the players have so many new things to try already at that point (the first 15-20 lvls or so at least). I think the game reaches a stalemate at around lvl 30 for the reasons mentioned above, so that could be a good time to set the lvl req for the lowest tier mount.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Zwieb what are your thoughts on the level requirements of the different mount tiers? In my opinion (as stated above) giving the mount too early will be a bad idea since the players have so many new things to try already at that point (the first 15-20 lvls or so at least). I think the game reaches a stalemate at around lvl 30 for the reasons mentioned above, so that could be a good time to set the lvl req for the lowest tier mount.

I don't see why a level requirement would be needed. A proper gold/MC cost serves the same purpose without throwing arbitrary level requirements into the mix.

I also think that the starter mount would be a nice addition as early as Riversdale, simply because there is a lot of walking in the Farmland content with no direct teleports available to get there.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Ah boo. And you're probably right they would end up looking lame. Was just trying to think of bigger more impressive possibilities. Im just glad theres a lot of options besides the horse.

Also @ Jumbo:

I don't think it matters much when the introduction to mounts is. If its a simple purchase type thing, then I think the lower the better. Its not like mounts actually add anything to gameplay other than the basic "hey this is neat" type thing.

 

[Jumbo]

Yeah you are right about the lvl req on the starter mount.

However, I think there should be a lvl req on the high tiered mounts. Otherwise bored people will have their lvl 25 squire farm gold and mcs from their high lvl friends playing and it will just look stupid with lowbies having "endgame" mounts.

@Box:
Well that all depends on what Zwieb has in mind. There are a few questions here:
-Can mounts be used in instances? (hopefully not, at least not in caves)
-How does combat interfere with mounting? Does it result in instant dismounting or can the player escape while still mounted?
-How fast are the mounts?

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Oh I assumed they'd remove your ability to attack, but increase your movement speed. There'd likely be a mount/dismount button somewhere (this button could probably go in the backpack, this should make Alex happy )

I dont *think* mounting/dismounting should matter in or out of combat, but I guess if movespeed is increased by a lot this could potentially lead to cheesing certain boss encounters maybe, perhaps limitations could be placed if issues do arise.

Also level 25s farming gold/MC's from friends.. Like.. I dont see why that matters. If someone has friends willing to do that, then more power to them? I don't really see this being much of an issue at all.

 

[Jumbo]

Exactly Box. Well I suppose the mount mechanics of Wow should be a good foundation.

By the way I'm looking at the different models in the editor now - trying to see if I can add more to your list - of course I don't know if they will clip too much since I can't test it, but anyway:

-Ancient of Wind (uprooted). The walk animation may sway too much though.

-Infernal juggernaut (It is the one without a cannon on top).

-Clockwork Goblin (maybe too unstable animation I don't know)

-Water Elemental

-Crab

Maybe some of them are useful. If not, whatever

 

[ALEXz407]

I don't see why a level requirement would be needed. A proper gold/MC cost serves the same purpose without throwing arbitrary level requirements into the mix.

I also think that the starter mount would be a nice addition as early as Riversdale, simply because there is a lot of walking in the Farmland content with no direct teleports available to get there.

What do you think about "account-wide" mount system? (like WoW have currently)
Acquired mounts saved to the vault code, so player can start new hero and use his mounts (and show his coolness!).

With such system you can make status item from mounts, giving them for: achievements / low drop chance from powerful bosses / high cost (not sure about last, player can reload after buy to return Gold&MC)

Or you can mix two systems:
- epic rare cool mounts saved to the vault code
- normal Gold&MC / Quest reward mounts saved to the hero code

For example hero will save 3 buyable/quest mounts:
- in Riversdale for Gold (slow speed);
- in Mythargas for Gold&MC (normal speed);
- epic quest for d4 (high speed).

And you have a place for 8 epic mounts, at least 3 can be achieved for example:
- all 6 base classes at level 25;
- all 12 advanced classes at level 50;
- 1000 boss kills;
- and 5 remaining mounts can be dropped from bosses with low chance.
Also I think all epic mounts must have almost similar stats, so difference between them will be pure vanity.

Oh I assumed they'd remove your ability to attack, but increase your movement speed. There'd likely be a mount/dismount button somewhere (this button could probably go in the backpack, this should make Alex happy )

I dont *think* mounting/dismounting should matter in or out of combat, but I guess if movespeed is increased by a lot this could potentially lead to cheesing certain boss encounters maybe, perhaps limitations could be placed if issues do arise.

Actually, Mount/Dismount button can be placed to the hero command card, Rest button will be removed in next update anyway
This button can be hidden if player doesn't have any mounts, or it can display error "You don't have any mounts, visit stables in nearest city to learn more".

Not sure better use Mount/Dismount button and add NPC stableman, so you can select your current mount from obtained list.
Or
Add spellbook with mounts to the hero, so you can select mount "on the fly", but this will require some dismount rules (like dismount on attack order / any ability use).

"Summon mount only when player is out of combat" rule isn't important for PvE (maybe makes fleeing easier), but important for PvP aspects.

Running on mount to the combat is normal I think, but need some risk, to make "run through all mob packs" idea a gamble, for example:
- Chance to Daze (-50% speed) mount for 3 seconds every time when hero injured. (like WoW daze from back system)
- Chance to damage the mount instead rider, so he could die right in the mob pack.
- Mount speed ups over time (for example start from 250 MS and every second gain +10% speed up to 11 stacks if moving), each hit will remove 1 speed stack, each crit removes 2 stacks. (can be a good base for unique mount system with different base speeds, max stacks and bonus speed per stack. So you can make Mythargas race event but it's a bit overkill)

 

[Fack0r]

I really like this idea about the mounts and it simply looks EPIC with all attachments visible on the hero.

Now i'm assuming the mount function are going to prevent attacking/casting spells while mounted or atleast dismount the player in the event of attacking/casting spells with a minor chance to get dismounted when taking damage.

You could also make it getting your first mount a little more interesting than "Welcome to Riversdale, here is your mount for 100 pieces of gold." by creating a tad challenging quest, where you would have to actually learn to ride the Horse through different obstacles and on a timer. (Not too difficult, as we're still in the starting zone) If you're born a Horse Rider, you will be victorious and NOW you can purchase your first healthy horse at Jon the Stabler. This would add a little more to the first minutes of the game and it would feel just as rewarding and exciting as the Advanced Class Quests! Also this feature is kind of a WOW! factor if you ask me. With Wc3 lacking rideable mounts and all... I dont have any ideas on midgame/lategame mounts other than they have to look cooler naturally.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The rules for mounts are pretty straightforward:
- they have no attack; while mounted, you actually control the mount and not the hero, so nope, no attacking or casting spells
- they have a fixed amount of hitpoints and only survive for so long if attacked (they can be healed normally, though)
- they have no armor
- when the mount dies, the hero dismounts
- mounts can be resummoned normally after they died
- mounts have e a sprint ability that temporarily increases the speed even further and makes them immune to stuns or immobilizers for some seconds
- epic mounts also have a slightly reduced aggro range
- you can not enter any interiors or dungeons while mounted
- you can not talk or interact with npcs while mounted (for technical reasons)
- all mounts will have the same movespeed and abilities; the mount choice is pure vanity
- you can only have one mount active at the same time; you basicly buy them like an ability scroll and learn them via a click; then you can summon the mount directly from the hero command card. If you want to use a different mount, you must "activate" that first by clicking on the item to swap the equipped mount skill
- you can not summon your mount in combat (but you will not instantly dismount when entering combat)

 

[Fack0r]

- epic mounts also have a slightly reduced aggro range
- all mounts will have the same movespeed and abilities; the mount choice is pure vanity

Please? :O

 

[krustnik]

Psion fan art mount

 

[Zwiebelchen]

While I was adding the mount animation for the cleric model, I also added something new that the monk animation cycles were always missing.

Monk Norris!

 

[Jumbo]

Wow that's amazing. It's like the Assassin in Diablo 2 =)

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Priest Mount anim finished:

Click

 

[Jumbo]

So now Squire and Cleric done?
How long does it take for you to make each one? (just curious for how long it takes to make such an animation).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

So now Squire and Cleric done?
How long does it take for you to make each one? (just curious for how long it takes to make such an animation).

Depends on the complexity of the model (for example, the Mystic model takes longer as she has extra bones for the skirt and ponytail). Between one and two hours.
It's not the animation itself that takes time (that's like 10-15 minutes tops), but the iterative process until the sitting height and leg spread is correct for the test mounts. It's basicly trial and error.

The roundhouse kick animation for the cleric took about 3 hours to make.

Edit:
An update a day keeps the naggers at bay.
Squire, Cleric, Mage done... only the girls left now.

Click

 

[Jumbo]

Cool. Can you say how the mount speeds will be in terms of percentage increased or perhaps in real (World editor) numbers?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Cool. Can you say how the mount speeds will be in terms of percentage increased or perhaps in real (World editor) numbers?

35% faster, so from 320 to 430 movespeed. With the dash ability, you max out at 522 movespeed.

Doesn't sound that much faster on paper, but it definitely feels a lot faster.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

For clarity, we've decided to completely scrap the the proposed shard system then? Since this thread has become solely about mounts now .

 

[Zwiebelchen]

For clarity, we've decided to completely scrap the the proposed shard system then? Since this thread has become solely about mounts now .

For now, yes. Until I found a satisfying solution to the save/load bloat, it's off the table.


EDIT:
Last batch of animations finished.

click

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Sorry for the lack of updates, btw - I'm on it and the new version with all the accumulated bugfixes & new abilities & mounts will come soon, as promised; I am just slacking off a bit since I'm currently moving into my new appartment which consumes a lot of my free time.

 

[Jumbo]

Will it include the snow area too? Sorry if this is a stupid question. Just the fact that small feature updates are rarely that much of a thing unlike larger content updates =). In fact I think you should release the planned first part of the Snow area in the next version no matter how much time it takes.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Will it include the snow area too? Sorry if this is a stupid question. Just the fact that small feature updates are rarely that much of a thing unlike larger content updates =). In fact I think you should release the planned first part of the Snow area in the next version no matter how much time it takes.

No, the snow area still takes some time as I still haven't received even a single line of dialogue from anyone volunteering on this job.
In the end, I'll have to write it all myself, so that's definitely gonna slow things down.
Also, the new abilities take some time to make and they are kinda a priority since I don't want players to feel disadvantaged with the new ability system.

 

[Jumbo]

Well you could outsource the writing to non-native English speakers. As long as we aren't hopeless at English it will be fine. Also, smaller language/text mistakes can be fixed later.

 

[S0ulseeker]

Well you could outsource the writing to non-native English speakers. As long as we aren't hopeless at English it will be fine. Also, smaller language/text mistakes can be fixed later.

In fact as someone who is an American and only speaks English, there are many of you Foreigners who write a lot better than me lol

 

[Jumbo]

Yeah I would definitely like to write some quests.

On another note, Zwieb have you decided on the new Hexblade/Psion spells, and could you use our suggestions at all?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

If the person in charge of the texts can not write better english than me, then there's no point in outsourcing. So I kinda need native english speakers or else I could just do it on my own.

 

[Jumbo]

Well this doesn't make any sense. You said that it would take extra time to write all the text by yourself. Outsourcing would obviously eliminate this problem. Secondly, read what S0ul wrote about native speakers. Thirdly, that is a flawed idea about non-native speakers. Apparently you believe that we are all equally good/bad at writing the language simply because we are not native speakers.
Of course this is up to you alone, but your argument is based on a flawed logic.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Look; it's simple: can you write something with a high quality as in being a writer? Do you have any reference material like a short story or something similar?
If you can not answer these two questions with "yes", then what's the point?

The only point in having a different person write the texts is so that they are higher in quality. If they aren't, I'd rather do it on my own and let someone proofread it later, simply because I know the lore better than anyone else.

 

[Hawajska]

Lets check... Z tell us about Black Stone Amulet, Astraana Folowers, and does it/they have any relation with items/npc's in current content, or it's just side stuff?

 

[Jumbo]

It will probably be a tough job getting any dedicated writer to write for an Rpg map in WC3. But I hope you get lucky! Otherwise.. Well, it is not the most important aspect of the game.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The thing is; I already found 3 volunteers for that, but they never delivered.
People are always hot for creating stuff, but it's rare that they actually get something done.

That's why I mostly work alone. There were some exceptions in the past of contributers who DID actually deliver stuff. But those are a rare kind.

 

[Jumbo]

Yeah. I for instance delivered on the music addon, however insignificant it was compared to people like Box and Ihaz. If you gave me the job of doing anything text related I am sure my past 3 years of language related university studying should have provided me with a fairly decent level and understanding of English writing and reading skills. I am fully aware that people studying the English language specifically are capable of much more than myself. Nevertheless, the current Gaias dialogue isn't exactly Shakespeare (and neither does it have to be).

I'm sure other people would be willing to do this too - people that can be counted on: Some Gaias fans perhaps?

At the end of the day I can understand your reasoning and I respect it. I am just trying to say that we (or at least I) are here if you change your mind and want us to help with it.

 

[Ihazdialup]

I would be kind of interested in writing quests, but I think I would want a general idea of what you want

 

[Hawajska]

Shakespeare - Tempest uses damn simply english (20 min reading) ;p

 

[Ihazdialup]

I think another reason Zwieb wants native english speakers is so that the text doesn't have to actually be grammatically correct as for the most part people don't speak perfectly.
He wants the characters to feel like they're actually speaking and having conversations using slang and words that may be out of place but sound right rather than what is correct by the rules of the english language. if that makes sense....

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I think another reason Zwieb wants native english speakers is so that the text doesn't have to actually be grammatically correct as for the most part people don't speak perfectly.
He wants the characters to feel like they're actually speaking and having conversations using slang and words that may be out of place but sound right rather than what is correct by the rules of the english language. if that makes sense....

This, exactly.
If you look for example at the dialogue lines in the foothills area, you will notice all the accent used there to give these characters more personality.
If you can pull something like that of, then of course you can get the job Jumbo.
The snow area will be mostly dwarves. And it would be weird to have dwarves speak accent-free.

 

[Jumbo]

I wrote a fairly long questline to Zwieb now (for now only on paper with only a small dialogue part to show). Let us see if he likes. Then I will create all the dialogue.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I wrote a fairly long questline to Zwieb now (for now only on paper with only a small dialogue part to show). Let us see if he likes. Then I will create all the dialogue.

The quests are already designed (as in: mechanically created). So I don't take suggestions on that.

 

[Jumbo]

Alright.
Could you send me a quest then so I can do some proper work ?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Alright.
Could you send me a quest then so I can do some proper work ?

You can have my layout file for the quests if you wish and come up with something.

EDIT: I sent you a PM with the layout. Feel free to write texts for it.


@everyone else:
Don't worry about Gaias, folks, the new update is making progress. I just couldn't find much time during this week as I am currently busy furnishing my new appartment.
If 1.27 is really not just a rumor (and it seems it isn't), then maybe we can expect some new stuff that Gaias can use to get even better.