Wintermaul Redux 1.08g

[Moderator]

15:18, 11th Jul 2009
PurplePoot: Rejected until you can provide (and PM me) written permission from the original author that allowed you to edit this.

 

[ninjaen]

great another wintermaul (-(-.(-.-).-)-)

 

[ap0calypse]

This is great, it looks like something I made a while ago (I lost the map due to a PC crash, but it wasn't a wintermaul, it was a maul I made from scratch).
Finally someone who rebalances the most famous map of Warcraft III (DotA is for the 'new' players).

First of all, I'd like to say this is a good project, I've got about 15 Wintermauls, of which 10 are made by incompetent mappers, with all the results you have named (lagg, people whining about killstealing, ...).

Choosing the difficulty could be redone, though... now only red can choose the difficulty (I'm not a fan of that system), you could make a trigger that checks if red is playing, if he isn't, blue can choose the difficulty, if he isn't playing ... (you get the point).

Despite that, i's really good that the timer waits untill you choose the difficulty.

The descriptions are fully finished, the towers seem balanced at first notice, 1 player can't stop a whole wave (which is good) and the description is good.
The towers sell when you are blocking (which is great, like in my TD ^^)
The pathing-system works perfectly, the creeps don't stop in front of mazes and the air-levels don't fly over the walls (finally).

It is not original, but it isn't ment to be...
The text seems nice, but a little bit of color could be added (like in the sell-text).
The terrain is... a plain wintermaul-terrain, but it's good for reducing the lagg.
No extra options, but yet again, that wasn't the point of this map.

For a wintermaul, this map deserves a 4-5/5, since it's one of the best wintermauls I've seen, but in general this map deserves a 3-4/5, I will give it a 4/5

 

[ninjaen]

ok reason i dont like wm that much anymore is coz its same stuff all the time..(they way to build they way mobs come so on..)
what i want to see is a maul with a different look than winter maul they way they come

 

[ap0calypse]

If you don't like wintermaul, don't play it
You don't like it for a personal reason, but as long as you don't downrate the map for that, there's no problem.
I'm certain there are people who are going to like this bugfree, reamde wintermaul

p.s.: I really hate DotA, but I never play it.
Sometimes I test other AoS-maps, but even though I don't like it, I will never lower the rating because of that ^^

 

[ninjaen]

i like wintermaul but i just think if people make new mauls why not make it abit different fx mobs should run in some sort of circle idk

 

[ap0calypse]

i like wintermaul but i just think if people make new mauls why not make it abit different fx mobs should run in some sort of circle idk

That's already been done too... but we're just spamming this thread, so this is the last I'm going to say:

This is a Wintermaul, it's not ment to have a different Gameplay, people who do not like this gameplay can play other maps, there is no map that everyone likes.

 

[Relenor]

If this map really contains all thing you mentioned, this will be really nice. I really love maps like Wintermaul and I'll check this out as soon as possible (not enought time right now).
@ninjaen: I agree with ap0calypse - If you don't like any map, don't downrate it because of that. For example - I don't like AOS-type maps and I don't rate them either (because I don't know mechanics of game and so on). Don't you know something? Don't talk about it.

 

[ninjaen]

i like wintermauls but i dont get it why people keep making new ones like dota and aos

 

[Relenor]

I checked this map. You made it like "Geldteilen TD" - creeps are too strong to kill them alone; all the team is needed. But this change is good. Like other "cosmetic" ones

Mini-review:
-Removing "Blink" skill is not a good idea
-Adding attack speed of all towers in their descriptions would be very usefull
-Howitzer has "maiming" not "razing" damage
-Master Druid's Faerie Fire needs to be turned on manually ^^
-Smith hasn't "pillage" skill removed
-Hypercane hasn't its skill described (it's just whirling w/o any skill)
-Multi shot of Icycle Sprayer slows down only 1 creature (should it slow all 3?)
-Why Ice Sculptor has "Repair" ability when all other builders hasn't?
-V2 Rocket Launcher doesn't want to shoot 1st time by itself - I need to use once its skill and after this it shoots normally
-75% from 2 gold isn't 0 (I mean Egg selling)

I don't know anything about balance, because everythere may be something over- or underpowered. But in my opinion Tech is a little bit too powerful.
And I think that's everything

Overall: These things don't affect playing or any critical errors. Terrain might be better (it's plain, plain everywhere!).
I think 4/5 won't be disappointing and this map should be APPROVED.

 

[Taishaku]

@Relenor
Thank you for the corrections. They are much appreciated and will be addressed in 1.01, which will be uploaded shortly. I will be thanking you in the 1.01 Changelog.

-Removing "Blink" skill is not a good idea
-Adding attack speed of all towers in their descriptions would be very usefull
-Howitzer has "maiming" not "razing" damage
-Master Druid's Faerie Fire needs to be turned on manually ^^
-Smith hasn't "pillage" skill removed
-Hypercane hasn't its skill described (it's just whirling w/o any skill)
-Multi shot of Icycle Sprayer slows down only 1 creature (should it slow all 3?)
-Why Ice Sculptor has "Repair" ability when all other builders hasn't?
-V2 Rocket Launcher doesn't want to shoot 1st time by itself - I need to use once its skill and after this it shoots normally
-75% from 2 gold isn't 0 (I mean Egg selling)

Well, if you have to run to the other side of the map, chances are you're dead anyway. But I did not want to clutter up the workers.

I use DPS in the descriptions because I figure people won't necessarily have a calculator handy.

Thank you pointing out the typos. I have remedied them in the most recent update.

Thank goodness workers cannot attack anymore.

The Hypercane description won't really work because of its channeling nature. Sorry.

I intend Multishot to only slow one. It is too imbalanced if they slow all three.

Ah... I sorted the Races into the races, and the Human workers need Repair (Human).

Er... you must have upgraded the V1 Rocket Launcher in midcast. It happens.

I warn players that Egg Sacs are not refundable in the description.

{EDIT 1}
@ap0calypse
Thank you for the comments. This map was made with the goal of being a challenging game based off of the most famous TDs ever made. All considerations were secondary to gameplay in its making.

Choosing the difficulty could be redone, though... now only red can choose the difficulty (I'm not a fan of that system), you could make a trigger that checks if red is playing, if he isn't, blue can choose the difficulty, if he isn't playing ... (you get the point).

Yeah, well, I want to discourage solo attempts in whatever ways possible. This is a team game, and I hope people play with full houses. In fact, sometimes I want to remove the gold redistribution for unused slots... but that'd be sort of cruel, so meh.

{EDIT 2}

ok reason i dont like wm that much anymore is coz its same stuff all the time..(they way to build they way mobs come so on..)
what i want to see is a maul with a different look than winter maul they way they come

To be honest, I don't think most people have seen a Wintermaul map with terrain this clean for the past five years.

Anyhow, this is a rebuild from the ground up. The only thing imported was the unit spawn list.

{EDIT 3}
Alas... I hit Upload instead of Update. Seems I cannot update the map until my delete processes.

You can still down load it here:
Wintermaul Redux WarCraft 3 Map Project | WarCraft 3 | Nibbits

Or here:
Wintermaul Redux v1.01 - Warcraft 3 Maps - EpicWar.com

Also, the map seems to be rejected until I can contact bounty hunter21. I have already sent the PM explaining the map, other than using an imported spawn list, is entirely my own creation, based off of the original map by Duke Wintermaul.

 

[ap0calypse]

Use "edit", instead of posting multiple posts (mods will complain about that - with reason)

I'm fully aware that this is a team map (another reason why this map is a lot better than the edited versions of wm nowadays), but if (for some reason) there is no player red, you can't play.
Full house is' always an option.

This terrain is indeed unique, I tink only the original wm has such a flawless terrain (and yours is probably even better).
I can really tell this isn't a copy of the old maps, but a complete new one.

Don't worry about the map rejection, it will turn out fine.
The hive has a lot of little rules, but as long as you follow them, this is (one of) the best WC3-sites.
You've also given credit to Duke Wintermaul, so therse houldn't be a problem.

 

[Relenor]

I'm sure I hadn't upgraded it during casting, because it was between waves.
About multishot - OK, but I wanted to list all things that I found.
But I still think that "Blink" ability would be useful, especially when grey leaves (I don't like running from upper corner through whole map ).
So now let's check your update

Edit: LOL - all players that I play with on BN said that this version is "the most n00b 'cause it's hard". I ROFLed them
But it seems you did good work!

Edit 2: I found an error - common gamesplits...

 

[Taishaku]

@Relenor
Fine, perhaps I will add the unlimited range Blink in the next update.

Good. Nobody I know has managed to beat the current version on Normal. Once we got to the last level, but one of the Duke Wintermauls made it.

My roommate reported game splits as well. I thought they were because he used wireless. Would you have any idea what is causing it? It tends to occur during the first spawn, he said.

 

[Relenor]

First thought of mine or my friends - it's Blizzard and BN fault. But it happens only when some maps are played. I think it's fault of some memory leaks, but I'm not sure - I don't know very good mechanics of WE and map creating. You should ask at forum (or find something about it) or ask Map Moderators. Maybe they know.

Edit: I has just read something about it. Gamesplits (desync) is caused by errors in triggers. If you made a change for 1 player and forgot to made the same for another, there may desync appear, on BN known as Gamesplit. It's only an example that was written. But it seems to be true.

 

[ninjaen]

btw this look like a sad smiley to me

 

[Taishaku]

@Relenor
I know how server splits work. Memory leaks do not cause them. Beside, it only occurs at the start of a game, which is uncharacteristic of a memory leak. Indeed, I intentionally leave some unit groups and points unremoved so they can be used the entire game.

But still, I do not see what trigger could cause this. All of my triggers are written in GUI and are rather simple. Perhaps the creation of all the unremoved unit groups and points may be the cause. I am redeveloping the initial movement system now. It will no longer use an array. =\

 

[Relenor]

@Taishaku
Well... You know, I really hate you and your map. What I said before is true - no one wants to play because it's too hard for them. And I can't beat this game w/o cheats alone, because creeps has much too high hp ;P Maybe you should add an option that recognizes amount of players and depending on that sets creeps hp? Then single player would be playable (to tell you the truth I tested you map in single player but with cheats ) or instead of decreasing hp - lower amount of creatures spawned. But I think my first suggestion is better.

 

[Taishaku]

@Taishaku
Well... You know, I really hate you and your map. What I said before is true - no one wants to play because it's too hard for them. And I can't beat this game w/o cheats alone, because creeps has much too high hp ;P Maybe you should add an option that recognizes amount of players and depending on that sets creeps hp? Then single player would be playable (to tell you the truth I tested you map in single player but with cheats ) or instead of decreasing hp - lower amount of creatures spawned. But I think my first suggestion is better.

Missing players' gold is redistributed to other players at random. Difficulty scales the armor and lives remaining. This map is totally possible at Easy. Anyhow, the latest version, which has not been uploaded because I'm trying to fix the server splits, increases all splash by 25 units, making air levels much more possible.

Anyhow, I redesigned the spawn system and it still seems to be server splitting. Anything I should specifically hunt for? ><

 

[Relenor]

I know that what you said but try to beat this map alone with Crystal. Their first tower is too weak with its attack speed. Maybe now, after splash increase, it will be more playable. Now with crystal in single player you are dead after first wave.

Decreasing stats: with 9 players first-wave-creeps have 190 hp, but in single they have 150. Try to kill it with towers with 10-20 damage with 60 gold.

About gamesplits: You made spawn like in KinderGarten TD, but there is spawned 4 units at once. I've completely no idea, what you should hunt for... Maybe remove this path-finding? If it works then, try to change something in path-finding.

Edit: I would forget - It would be nice too if you change difficulty chooser to Host instead of Red. That would be really helpful, especially when Red is a leaver, and host doesn't want to be Red.

 

[Taishaku]

@Relenor
Crystal is very teamwork dependent. Their basic tower has the largest splash for any non-Spell tower in the game.

I don't like the idea of decreasing stats. You can easily do it though.

I think I fixed the problem by dividing the spawn trigger into multiple triggers, then creating a master trigger to run these separate triggers.

I will consider allowing a player other than Red pick the difficulty.

 

[Relenor]

Heh - but I still think that it's a little bit too hard in single player
I should test last update as soon as I pass my tests tommorow.

 

[Taishaku]

Heh - but I still think that it's a little bit too hard in single player
I should test last update as soon as I pass my tests tommorow.

Single player? Lolll...

I wonder how you get past the first level. I don't scale starting gold.

But yeah, I've increased the damage of non-splash units and increased the splash radius by 25.

The real trick to success in every game I have played and won is aura stacking. If you get every race's race together, you get quite a bit of an advantage. On a side note, I have not yet managed to beat Duke Wintermaul on Normal, but I've only had two tries with public teams.

 

[Relenor]

I should ROFL you now. I said I test have tested it in single player with cheats ("keysersoze" only) In multi I had many gamesplits, so... You know. All tests failed.

 

[Taishaku]

@Relenor
The server split problem should be fixed, or so my two beta testers tell me.

 

[Taishaku]

Updated!

Now if Red isn't playing, Blue can pick the difficulty and so on until Gray.

I also fixed the Anti-Stuck trigger for Air. Sometimes the stunned or netted air units would bypass a pathing region and turn around.

Server splitting remains rare. If it starts acting up again in this version, be sure to notify me.

I also balanced Earth, which was severely underpowered in the last version. Attack damage aura towers got a slight boost because they tended to be useless. The Bank Tower also got a boost; I doubled the gold bonus and attack damage.

As usual, report any bugs you find to me.

 

[kadoda77]

Ok, first off I just want to say this is easily the best Wintermaul I've ever played. 4/5 from me.

So I just downloaded this map and decided to host a pub, see how the map worked and what not. A couple of people (Pretty much everyone) were complaining about how weak their towers were (Not later on tho) and then we got an idea. If bounty is shared, then there's no need to stay inside your own build area, because no one can KS. With this brilliant new-found discovery we decided to all go build in gray's area, as he left early on. So with all of our auras stacking, slows slowing, stuns stunning, and bug-things eating, we easily made our way to Duke Wintermaul.

Suffice to say we beat it, but found a bug of some sort. I think it had to do with how many towers we had on the bottom, we must have blocked a waypoint or something, because four of the dukes managed to wind their way out of the maze and run back to their respective spawns. (At least I think they went back to their own, two on top left, two in middle, killed the others.)

All-in-all, his was a good bit of fun, just thought I'd let you know some random pubbers managed to beat normal, and I'm 100% positive if done again, we could beat it on any difficulty setting if we repeated our above technique.

Here is the replay should anyone be interested: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rj5cikhttp://www.sendspace.com/file/rj5cik

 

[Taishaku]

Yeah, the idea is for people to work together. The towers are definitely not strong enough to always kill everything.

I might impose a tower limit on the next version by making them cost food in later versions though, to get people to choose wisely rather than making massive super mazes.

To be honest, I never beat Normal before. Always lost on Duke Wintermaul. I recently changed his armor to take 200%, so you probably had a much easier time. I am considering making it a 100% deal though, along with the first level.

I have never seen the Duke Wintermauls run back to their spawn. Indeed, there should be an anti-return trigger to catch them...

EDIT: OHHH, you paused them for so long that they tried to find another way into the maze then forgot their pathing.

Hm... maybe I will test with 0 collision; it's currently 1.

Also, I need to nerf the Bank Towers's Transmute. I saw how many Hypercanes there were! xD

A response to OJ: The map is a Tower Defense. The defenders are a military that defend against an enemy. Militaries cannot be communist or capitalist. They are in it to win it. =P

EDIT: AHHH! FOR SOME UNFATHOMABLE REASON, THE SERVER SPLITS ARE BACK!

1.04c is a reversion to 1.04 with two changes; the removing of the collision of Duke Wintermaul and the nerfing of Bank Tower Transmute.

 

[kadoda77]

Yeah, we really wanted Pink to build his bank before he left

Also, I think one of the Duke's decided our third bank was blocking, so he attacked it

I'll have to give the revision a try tomorrow, no time tonight.

Oh, and as far as the server splits, I wouldn't count me as being a good tester for that, I've had issues where players randomly drop from all of my games, sometimes it's just one person, sometimes it's everyone. My bad, dunno how or if I can fix that, I've asked Battle.net support, and they just QQ'd about me using Banlist and told me I was a hacker, and blah blah. (Edit: And I'm NOT, and I'm NOT banned, and I don't plan on doing so or becoming so.)

 

[Taishaku]

@kadoda77
I recently removed the collision of Duke Wintermaul, so it's pretty much impossible for him to get confused anymore.

And I think the server splits got fixed.

Now I'm trying to fix the spawns getting aggro'ed by splash.

 

[Relenor]

@Taishaku:
If I may add something about spawns - make creeps invulnerable till they move out of spawn. It should work. Or just make part of terrain unable to build on it (terrain next to spawns). It's only an idea of man who sleeps while playing WC3 ^^

 

[Taishaku]

@Taishaku:
If I may add something about spawns - make creeps invulnerable till they move out of spawn. It should work. Or just make part of terrain unable to build on it (terrain next to spawns). It's only an idea of man who sleeps while playing WC3 ^^

I set the wait time to only trigger on air levels (it's needed for the separation).

Newest version has a lot of fixes and new added utilities like Mark.

 

[kadoda77]

I'll definitely give it a test later tonight. Let ya know how things work out.

 

[Relenor]

One little thing - upgrade of Envenomed Spikes is named Envenomed Spikes, but the tower name is Envenomed Impaler. Little mistake with name.

And I think that you finally fixed that game splits. 5 games today and no splits. Good work! (With my luck, if there is a possibility for something bad, this "bad" will happen as soon as possible ).
But I noticed one more thing - where is my favourite Solar race? Or Lunar - they both were actually balanced and "different" (as different as races in Wintermaul can be ).

 

[Taishaku]

One little thing - upgrade of Envenomed Spikes is named Envenomed Spikes, but the tower name is Envenomed Impaler. Little mistake with name.

And I think that you finally fixed that game splits. 5 games today and no splits. Good work! (With my luck, if there is a possibility for something bad, this "bad" will happen as soon as possible ).
But I noticed one more thing - where is my favourite Solar race? Or Lunar - they both were actually balanced and "different" (as different as races in Wintermaul can be ).

Good catch on the Envenomed Spikes.

Yeah, my tester hasn't had a server split in awhile either. I think it's because I used the same variable for the entire initial movement trigger; combined with the wait for air, it probably caused a desynchronization. I solved the problem by using three separate variables and by making the wait apply only to air.

I wanted to stick to classical, unique races rather than diametrically opposed races such as Solar/Lunar and Angel/Demon, etc.

 

[Taishaku]

AIYAH.

So he got a split. Seems it's rarer, but it still occurs.

In 1.06, I reimported the map into a fresh blank copy and removed one step of the spawn trigger. Hopefully, I didn't forget to reimport important anything.

EDIT: MURDER. DEATH. KILL. WHY WON'T THIS DAMN SERVER SPLIT ISSUE GO AWAY? WHAT IS WRONG? ARGHHH...

 

[kadoda77]

NETSPLIT, ARGH!

Ok, well first round through we died, but it was pretty fun, on the remake, we had a .net.split during the first wave, I can easily tell this apart from hosting problems as everyone suddenly left at the same time, it was pretty sad.

Wish me luck on remake number two!

Edit: NETSPLIT AGAIN! ARGH... Ok, I'm taking a break, I'll give it a shot later.

 

[Taishaku]

@kadoda77
I have a new staggered spawning system that has not had any splits yet. The units spawn invulnerable and unable to move, then all become vulnerable when they begin moving.

New version has -repick, various balances, and a better Unstuck function.

 

[kadoda77]

Righteo, I don't have access to my gaming rig at the moment, but I'll give it a shot again tomorrow.

 

[Taishaku]

@kadoda77
Wow. Nevermind, we got one split recently.

I have no idea whatsoever what is causing it. No triggers are even running when it happens!

EDIT: Okay, might be orders, I staggered those too. So far so good.

 

[Gamecrafter_DK]

... you got a changelog somewhere?

 

[Taishaku]

... you got a changelog somewhere?

The changelog is in Quests. I only list changes that influence gameplay.

EDIT: 1.06i has been released. A lot of the splash has been nerfed because it seems it's too easy to cluster up at Gray.

 

[Gamecrafter_DK]

... this is impossible to play alone, and i bet it's only possible with atleast 6...

 

[Taishaku]

@Gamecrafter_DK
Glad to know you figured it out. ^^

 

[Gamecrafter_DK]

it is prolly written somewhere guess i was too lazy to read all.

 

[Taishaku]

@Gamecrafter_DK
Yeah... play it with fullhouse.

 

[Gamecrafter_DK]

I can't host, and i VERY rarely see it on B.Net... never, actually.

 

[Taishaku]

@Gamecrafter_DK
Ah... that would be a problem. Er... find someone to host it?

I have a tester on Lordaeron, but he's busy this week. The other tester got bored of testing. =\

 

[ap0calypse]

I can host, I'm in the "reviewer"-group and I'm interested in this map...
I can't always be on, though.