Ways in which WoW butchered Warcraft 3

[Venombite]

Yeah, weird that I post something like this, cause I've been a WoW fanboy during Reforged fiasco, but. While WoW did provide some(a lot) of good content, and ability to improve the Campaigns. It also butchered Warcraft 3 lore in many ways, for gameplay reasons mostly.

First of all there are some good things. Like Legion making Terror of the Tides Campaign ridiculous, but man does Suramar look awesome and fits the universe perfectly, and would it improve to have some Nightborne hints, Withered and Vrykul creeps on the Broken Shore. Uldum looks awesome, but the idea behind it was literally just let's add some ancient Egypt to this universe, and I don't think anyone would mind some new Silithid, Sand Troll or even air elemental creeps in the Barrens. I'm pretty certain that Chen Stormstout was just meant to be side, joke, uncannon character, to show the need to preserve the Panda in our world, and they made a whole expansion based on him, but man does Pandaria look awesome, fits in the World, and would it be a nice backround for some extra content. Sadly non of these has happened, or would ever happen.

However, from gameplay reasons, WoW did butcher many Warcraft 3 stuff. The biggest problem I have is with the race class identity.

To start with, the only race that wasn't butchered at all are the Humans. Humans in WoW and their zones are obviously based on Warcraft 3. And all of their classes fit and work almost perfectly. Human Warrior is a warrior from the middle ages, human Rogue a mysterious murderer from assasins creed, human Mage with the orbs tomes self cleaning brooms like Merlin inspired, human Priest a caster with all light and god and Catholic church theme, even the human Hunter which was added much later(Cataclysm) works well. The only thing about Humans for gameplay reasons is gender equality, with women being as common of Warriors, Hunters and even Priests. But it doesn't really break the whole Human middle ages theme that much.

However, almost all other races have been completely stripped of their race class identity. This is the most obvious with the Priest Class. For example there are Trolls, their Priests should be all about Voodoo rituals and Haitian Voodoo vibe, right? Wrong! Troll priest is a Human priest with blue skins, large tusks and hunched back. Forsaken priests should be Apothecaries, able to heal with medicines and poisones, wrong again, Forsaken priests are undead human priests, and they use Holy Light to heal other Undead for gameplay reasons which is autrocious from Wc3 point of view. Even the Dwarves, their priests should be all about runes and runelore stuff, yet they are short human priests.
Same goes for many other classes, for example Gnome Warrior should be a mechanic that builds a big suit to be large in combat not a very small human warrior that's just ridiculous, same goes for Goblins Blood Elf mage should be all surrounded with magics and Sunwell and that stuff, and not Merlin with long ears. Dwarven Paladin should be more of a rune mage with maces, and not a short human paladin etc....

Some core race philosophies from Warcraft 3 have been completely ignored for gameplay reasons, like both Humans and Orcs accapting Warlocks in their societies.

The things got even more rediculous with Cataclysm, there are just some totally unlogical things, like Dwarves being able to be Orc Shamans(Shaman is based on the Orc unlike really any other class that was based on Humans), Mages are all about the sophistication and that's the exact opposite of Orcs and Trolls, who can be mages. Tauren (large minotaurs) can be human priests and paladins etc....

However the race that was butchered by far the most are Night Elves, with pretty much every their lore aspect from Warcraft 3 being ignored for gameplay reasons. While they still do have that mystical-nature-night vibe, everything else has been butchered. Night Elf Priestesses are all about worshiping the moon, and night. They aren't just priestesses, but Warriors and Huntresses, even Rogues in some casses(Wardens and Watchers). All the Sentinels should be exclusively women, and thier warriors should be all about Night Elf glaves and stuff. No, their priests are human priests with blue skin and long ears, their warriors are human warriors with blue skin and long ears etc.....And for gameplay reasons they made them able to be of both sexes, even added many male Sentinel NPCs, which is just ridiculous. Night elf Warriors, Hunters, Rogues and Priests should be female exclusively. The other thing is that Druid class should be exclusive to Night Elf males. No! They made females as common as males, even NPCs, and even made Tauren druids (ridiculous from Wc3 point of view) of both sexes and made them as common as Night Elves. To top it all of in Cataclysm they made them except the Highborne, the race which slaughtered them, and represents the exact opposite of all that the Night Elves stand for, just so that Night Elves can be mages. They even added the customization of white hair which was exclusive to Highborne (something like Targaryen looks from GoT) and now you have white hair Night Elf druids running all around, which is again autrocious from Wc3 pov.
The thing with the Druids they could of done like they did with the monks, like sure other races can be monks, but the Pandaren train them, and every single monk NPC is a Pandaren.

Anyone found any other case when WoW butchered Wc3 lore?

 

[deepstrasz]

The classes and racial customization are the least of Warcraft's worries. As an MMO those things were bound to be there.
However, the main issue is the story retcons, loads of them. The first were due to gameplay reasons which were let's say fair but afterwards, I don't even want to think about it.

 

[Map Designer]

maybe it butchered blizzard. WoW cannot butcher WC3, nor can it change the real story.

 

[Chaosy]

Most of the time I think WoW expanded on lore rather than ruining it.

And what it actually ruins is mostly WoW exclusive lore anyway.

But the shadowlands trailer comes to mind recently.. yikes. Literary ruined TFT's badass ending to me.

 

[Venombite]

And what it actually ruins is mostly WoW exclusive lore anyway.

I disagree here. If anything it's the other way around. WoW expansions seem to take Wc3 (TfT mostly) elements and expand on that rather than WoW exclusive content, while WoW exclusive content is usually left untouched.
The examples are, well Legion took Maiev adventures on the Broken Isles and Suramar, and then what if there were some night elves hidden in Suramar all along and if Legion could free the Demons in the Tomb of Sargeras, and poof there you have the Nightborne and Legion.
Or what if Chen Stormstout was actually fully cannon and what his (ancestral) homeland would look like, plus some China in game. And poof there you have Mists of Pandaria, with the end quest chain of Chen reuniting with Rexxar and Rokhan and having the trio rally the Horde in Durotar against Garrosh.
Or what if the World Tree faced other problems rather than Legion, like fire, poof Cata.
Ending on Rexxar Campaign and how would Kul Tiras react to that, plus a catchy song, poof "be ware be ware the daughter of the sea" and BfA.
And let's not even talk about TBC and WotLK that are storywise basically TfT part 2 and 3.

 

[Chaosy]

How can it be the other way around? wc3 ruins WoW lore?

How does adding a new night elf city ruin the wc3 lore? it's not like it is stated anywhere that all night elves are located on teldrassil. This is just assumed as we are not shown anything else.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I'm sorry, but as much as I might despise some of WoW's lore, I think your "examples" make no sense.

his is the most obvious with the Priest Class. For example there are Trolls, their Priests should be all about Voodoo rituals and Haitian Voodoo vibe, right? Wrong! Troll priest is a Human priest with blue skins, large tusks and hunched back. Forsaken priests should be Apothecaries, able to heal with medicines and poisones, wrong again, Forsaken priests are undead human priests, and they use Holy Light to heal other Undead for gameplay reasons which is autrocious from Wc3 point of view. Even the Dwarves, their priests should be all about runes and runelore stuff, yet they are short human priests.

Would it be cooler if classes had differently animations or even some mechanical modifications depending on the race someone is playing? Absolutely.

Is it realistic from a game design point of view? Well... no. WoW already suffers from a huge amount of various abilities and spell effects that not only make the game a bit confusing, but also can be pretty demanding on one's PC. Adding racial flavor to classes would only multiply these issues. Not to mention that creating so many effects would require a lot of work and while it would please a lot of people, others would go nuts, because their class fantasy changed or their race didn't get any new stuff.

So yeah - does it thematically/fantasy-wise? Yeah, a bit, but in this particular case I genuinely feel that Blizzard's design is justified.

Some core race philosophies from Warcraft 3 have been completely ignored for gameplay reasons, like both Humans and Orcs accapting Warlocks in their societies.

Just to add a couple more counter-arguments:

1) A lot of time has passed between the events of W3 and WoW, which means races had time to evolve and learn new things.

2) Since all playable races belong to one of the two big factions, it's not only possible, but even relatively likely that some of them would share their knowledge, power and techniques with their allies, especially considering point 1) and the fact that they live in a world where either the other faction or some other big existential threat is pretty much always out to get you and you need your allies to be as powerful as possible. As such, I don't think there's a lot of valid lore reasons why race X shoudn't be able to use Y power, the only one that comes to mind is Forsaken using Holy Light, but other than most stuff seems like a fair game.

For example, you're saying that Trolls shouldn't use Holy Light... Why? Blood Elves are adept at using the Light and there's no reason why a Troll wouldn't be able to use it as well, so considering the two races have been allies for years, it's totally possible that Blood Elves just taught their Troll friends how to use the Light.

And yes, it homogenizes the races a bit and like I've said, thematically it would have been cooler to have each race focus more on its racial theme, but in terms of logic or overall lore - it does actually make sense. Well, for the most part.

3) Like I've said in point 2), Warcraft races live in a reality where they're constantly either at war with someone or under threat from something - this is bound to have a serious toll on the size of their standing armies, which means that it's totally realistic that they're going to look for allies and consider using even these forces that they previously deemed "unworthy". That's not "ignoring race philosophies" - that's having "race philosophies" evolve to meet the challenges that the race faces.

Like, heck, look at Warcraft 3... Didn't Tyrande free Illidan to fight the Legion? Didn't the Horde and the Alliance fight together against the Burning Legion? Didn't Kael'thas side with the demon-corrupted Illidan to sate his people's hunger? Didn't Garithos fight alongside Sylvanas in Lordaeron?

The reality is - if you're f...ed enough, you're going to take any help that you can get. That's the core, universal "survival philosophy". And in that context it actually does make sense that for instance the Alliance accepted Warlocks or Death Knights or whatever, because survival > ideology (in most cases). And if these previously shunned professions turned out to be valuable allies, it also does make sense that they were allowed to stay, albeit likely under certain conditions.

Dwarves being able to be Orc Shamans(Shaman is based on the Orc unlike really any other class that was based on Humans)

Shaman is based on being able to commune with the elements, which as far as I'm aware is not something that is exclusive to Orcs.

Mages are all about the sophistication and that's the exact opposite of Orcs and Trolls, who can be mages

Humans weren't originally mages either, they were taught by the High Elves, who later (as Blood Elves) joined the Horde and were able to teach Orcs or Trolls. Once again, it's not like only certain races possess some affinity to magic. At least I'm not aware of any lore that would state that race X can't learn magic, while race Y can. Besides, Orcs and Trolls aren't some clone army, but a fairly diverse race and it's totally possible that some were talented and "sophisticated" enough to learn magic.

Tauren (large minotaurs) can be human priests and paladins

If anything, this actually makes the most sense - Tauren might look like dumb brutes, but they're actually the most "noble" Horde race, which as far as I know is pretty much the only pre-requisite to being able to use the Holy Light (well, that and not being Undead).

Night Elf Priestesses are all about worshiping the moon, and night. They aren't just priestesses, but Warriors and Huntresses, even Rogues in some casses(Wardens and Watchers). All the Sentinels should be exclusively women, and thier warriors should be all about Night Elf glaves and stuff. No, their priests are human priests with blue skin and long ears, their warriors are human warriors with blue skin and long ears etc...

That's actually a fair point, but... well, I think this would have been fine if classes were more of a mixture of different styles, for instance - if all Priests used both the Holy Light and Voodoo (Horde) or Moon (Alliance), which would signify that the class you're playing is a result of different racial powers coming together.

As for the NE gender thing... yes, it was unique and cool, so I'm a bit sad that Blizzard went back on that, but considering the type of game WoW is - it had to be done.

even made Tauren druids (ridiculous from Wc3 point of view)

No, it's not. Tauren were originally very in-tune with earth and nature, so it makes perfect sense that they can be Shamans or Druids.

To top it all of in Cataclysm they made them except the Highborne, the race which slaughtered them, and represents the exact opposite of all that the Night Elves stand for, just so that Night Elves can be mages.

The Night Elves were a secluded society in W3, which means that their ideology was stagnant, but when they joined the Alliance they had the opportunity to interact with other races and reflect on their way of life, especially considering that the events of W3 have already proven their old ideals to not be flawless.

Thus, the mid-WoW Night Elves are probably a lot more open-minded than W3 Night Elves, so it's possible that seeing how other Alliance races are able to use magic without causing the world to blow up, they could have come to a conclusion that perhaps magic by itself isn't bad and if some "outsiders" have proved to be valuable allies and friends then perhaps some of their own people who were previously banished could deserve a chance too.

Also - Illidan. Yes, he got corrupted by the Skull of Gul'dan, but at the end of the day - he did help out against the Legion, helped rescue Tyrande and didn't go on a killing spree against his own people despite likely being viewed as one of the worst Night Elves ever, so in conjuction with the fact that we was pretty Highborne-ish, could also lead Malfurion and Tyrande to consider that perhaps they've judged others too harshly as well.

 

[Duke]

For me it is the separation of main races to Horde and Alliance. It would've been more interesting to have the races fend for themselves in small regional conflicts with some overlooming threat in my opinion. Wc3 horde and night elves duking it out in Ashenvale, Blood elves struggling against Amani and Scourge, Dwarves defending Irongforge against waves of scourge and so on.
Then there is all the weird scifi fantasy shit going on with space ships, aliens and separate timelines which is not even worth commenting on.

 

[Chaosy]

It would make for a more interesting story but be impossible gameplay wise.

Good luck playing on a mostly-dead server as a gnome.
3 players online total lol

 

[MasterBlaster]

Then there is all the weird scifi fantasy shit going on with space ships, aliens and separate timelines which is not even worth commenting on.

This, however, I agree with... WoW's lore has certainly gotten crazy over the years... Like, come on - space ships, big-ass dudes with flaming beards impaling the planet (how the hell it didn't for instance cause a massive shockwave that would wipe everyone out is beyond me - YES, I'M A SCIENCE NERD, SUE ME), blowing cities up, etc.

It's a bit much sometimes.

 

[Chaosy]

I dont think anyone would make the argument that WoW is flawless, but the question raised if it ruins Wc3 lore specifically.

 

[Duke]

It would make for a more interesting story but be impossible gameplay wise.

Good luck playing on a mostly-dead server as a gnome.
3 players online total lol

I understand the decision from gameplay perspective. It just sucks because of the inevitable dumbing down of the setting.

 

[Venombite]

How can it be the other way around? wc3 ruins WoW lore?

How does adding a new night elf city ruin the wc3 lore? it's not like it is stated anywhere that all night elves are located on teldrassil. This is just assumed as we are not shown anything else.

When I said it's the other way around, I meant that WoW is using lore from Wc3, rather than "it's own" lore to make new content.
As for Suramar, well, Maiev and Illidan totally wouldn't notice a giant arcane dome just behind the Tomb of Sargeras and dozens of degenerate beings (Withered) that strangely look like Night Elves, and Illidan, hungry for magic totally wouldn't go to check out the place full of magic. Suramar was meant to be something like Atlantis, a long lost empire sunked beneath the seas millenia ago, sort of archeological paradise. The Archer even says something like this to Maiev in TfT(a mission where you get to escort the runners).
And no, not all night elves are on Teldrassil, but they were unique to Kalimdor(Darkshore, Ashenvale, Feralas, even Silithus)

Shaman is based on being able to commune with the elements, which as far as I'm aware is not something that is exclusive to Orcs.

No, a playable shaman is not just about wielding the elements. He/she's also a powerful warrior obviously(*cough*Enhancement*cough*), even Restoration and Elemental shamans wear mail and wield shields and hammers, rather than wearing cloth and wielding staves. And that's something unique to the orcs. The shamans of other cultures aren't warriors, but purely casters something like priests, for example Furbolg and Tuskarr shamans. So I imagine that Tauren shamans would be something like Furbolgs, and Troll shamans would be all about Voodoo.

But I guess your argument redeems Blizzard, races have to be open minded, so Trolls and Tauren learnt the way of Warrior-Shamanism, and Dwarveas were thought by the Draenei. Even though Draenei became Shamans only after the Horde began to listen to Gul'dan and pretty much eradicated them, but those are some minor details.

No, it's not. Tauren were originally very in-tune with earth and nature, so it makes perfect sense that they can be Shamans or Druids.

Again, I disagree. While they make sense as shaman, though not playable shamans, Spirit Walkers being shamans roughly, Druids don't make sense. Druid powers come from the connection to the Emerald dream, which was provided by their alliance with Cenarius and his children, his trust in them and their worship of him and other Night Elf wild gods. While wild gods are dead, their spirit still roams the emerald dream where they teach their disciples and worshipers. Like Druids of the Talon worship Aviana, Druids of the Claw (Guardian Druids in WoW) worship Ursoc, Druids of the Branch (Restoration Druids) worship Aessina and so on..
But I see no way how could the Taurens get in contact with Cenarius and other Wild Gods and enter the Dream. Cenarius didn't visit the Barrens, it wasn't his thing, he lived in heavily forested Asenvale and the Emerald Dream, so I see no way the Tauren could contact him(and let alone Trolls). I mean Blizzard gave some retcon explanation, but it was done vary clumsily.
If anything the race that would somewhat make sense as Druids are Furbolgs, being Night Elf allies and having a living Wild God, Cenarius and Ursol being the only Wild Gods that survived WotA.
But again I guess they couldn't make Druids night elf exclusive, and back in classic had a lot of problems with Paladin/Shaman being exclusive to Alliance/Horde, and the last thing they needed was another faction specific class, so something had to be done.

For me it is the separation of main races to Horde and Alliance. It would've been more interesting to have the races fend for themselves in small regional conflicts with some overlooming threat in my opinion. Wc3 horde and night elves duking it out in Ashenvale, Blood elves struggling against Amani and Scourge, Dwarves defending Irongforge against waves of scourge and so on.
Then there is all the weird scifi fantasy shit going on with space ships, aliens and separate timelines which is not even worth commenting on.

Yes, I agree here. Even today I see zero reasons for Night Elves/Forsaken joining Alliance/Horde.
The explanation was that Horde deforested Ashenvale, but so did the Humans in Warcraft 3.
And the Alliance and Humans hate and don't trust the Undead, well neither the orcs do.

Humans weren't originally mages either, they were taught by the High Elves, who later (as Blood Elves) joined the Horde and were able to teach Orcs or Trolls. Once again, it's not like only certain races possess some affinity to magic. At least I'm not aware of any lore that would state that race X can't learn magic, while race Y can. Besides, Orcs and Trolls aren't some clone army, but a fairly diverse race and it's totally possible that some were talented and "sophisticated" enough to learn magic.

While I agree here, about open minded and some Orcs and Trolls being smart, and smarter than most, still there are some things.
Yes, lorewise Humans weren't the first mages and they learnt magics from High/Blood Elves, mage class in WoW is obviously designed for Humans and takes it's inspiration from Merlin, and Merlin's tower, orbs and scrolls, self cleaning brooms etc.....The concept which imo doesn't really fit High/Blood Elves being about the Sunwell and font of Arcane and so on. There was obviously a lot of inspiration from Humans in Wc3, Archmage and Sorceress(though Sorceress is a High/Blood Elf).
However I don't think that Orc and Troll culture would support anything mage oriented. Being extremely Warhearted/primitive Cannibalistic is the exact opposite of anything the mage stands for(high education, high knowledge, sophistication and so on). If anything the Taurens would make a lot more sense as Blood Elf students being the most noble/sophisticated Horde race.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I'll reply to the rest a bit later, but...

The explanation was that Horde deforested Ashenvale, but so did the Humans in Warcraft 3.

The reason was extremely simple - border issues, i.e. with the Horde bordering Ashenvale and having a huge demand for lumber due to building up their settlements, the Night Elves were pretty vulnerable alone (especially after a huge chunk of their land was ravaged by the Legion), should the Horde ever decide to attack. Joining the Horde wasn't really in question, because that would mean having to concede even more of the forest, so the only viable option was the Alliance.

Buuut... Thrall fought alongside the Night Elves in the Third War, so why would the Night Elves fear that the Horde could attack? Well, there was this little someone called Grom Hellscream who was also a part of the Horde and just so happened to kill Cenarius and a lot of Night Elves plus the fact that the Warsong Clan was already raiding Ashenvale, despite Thrall agreeing to leave the Night Elves alone in return for lumber from Azshara. Both of these showed that while Thrall might have been "safe", not all Orcs were and they were right on Ashenvale's borders, so if Thrall ever died, quit or whatever, the next leader of the Horde could have just attacked the Night Elves.

Meanwhile the Alliance was a perfect fit. Much closer ideologically, Jaina's forces didn't really plunder Ashenvale all that much (I mean, they did when they went in after the Legion, but they didn't have a dedicated lumber harvesting expedition with a corrupted member that attacked the Night Elves *cough* Grom *cough*), Theramore and other Alliance territories were a long way away from Ashenvale (i.e. NE territory wasn't the natural area for expansion for the Alliance, unlike the Horde), the Alliance had an abundance of lumber and didn't need the one from Ashenvale.

Forsaken

Originally the Forsaken wanted to join the Alliance, but got rejected. So why did they join the Horde? Well, the Alliance has seen Lordaeron as it's rightful land and undead, no matter if free-willed or not, as their natural enemies. Thus, the Forsaken had every reason to fear an Alliance attack and needed allies. Why did Thrall accept them into the Horde? Politics. The Horde was at the time had no real holdings in the Eastern Kingdoms and the Alliance had a stronger navy, which means that if it ever came to war, the Alliance was pretty much untouchable. I mean, yes, after the Night Elves joined, the Horde could have fought in the Ashenvale front, but that would still leave the bulk of the Alliance lands perfectly safe, meaning the whole of the Alliance would just focus on fighting on Kalimdor and the reality of war is that it ravages the land and thus the eventual war with the Alliance would probably be lead mostly in Horde territorries, i.e. it would destroy Horde lands, giving the Alliance a serious strategic advantage.

Accepting the Forsaken into the Horde changed the situation as it gave the Horde an extremely valuable beachead in the Easter Kingdoms and a decently powerful ally that could attack the Alliance mainland if needs be. Moreover, the Forsaken - as scary as they were - were a fairly safe ally for the Horde, because they were in Eastern Kingdoms, which means that if Sylvanas and the crew ever tried something funny, there was a huge ocean between them and the rest of the Horde.

That, plus the fact that the Forsaken needed Horde more then the Horde needed Forsaken, so the threat of being left alone against the whole of the Alliance should be more than enough to deter Sylvanas from trying to betray Thrall.

---

Thus, politically the Night Elves joining the Alliance and the Forsaken joning the Horde was reasonable.

 

[Venombite]

Both of these showed that while Thrall might have been "safe", not all Orcs were and they were right on Ashenvale's borders, so if Thrall ever died, quit or whatever, the next leader of the Horde could have just attacked the Night Elves.

Whispering with Arthas's voice: Sylvanas.......

The reason was extremely simple - border issues, i.e. with the Horde bordering Ashenvale and having a huge demand for lumber due to building up their settlements, the Night Elves were pretty vulnerable alone (especially after a huge chunk of their land was ravaged by the Legion), should the Horde ever decide to attack. Joining the Horde wasn't really in question, because that would mean having to concede even more of the forest, so the only viable option was the Alliance.

Buuut... Thrall fought alongside the Night Elves in the Third War, so why would the Night Elves fear that the Horde could attack? Well, there was this little someone called Grom Hellscream who was also a part of the Horde and just so happened to kill Cenarius and a lot of Night Elves plus the fact that the Warsong Clan was already raiding Ashenvale, despite Thrall agreeing to leave the Night Elves alone in return for lumber from Azshara. Both of these showed that while Thrall might have been "safe", not all Orcs were and they were right on Ashenvale's borders, so if Thrall ever died, quit or whatever, the next leader of the Horde could have just attacked the Night Elves.

Meanwhile the Alliance was a perfect fit. Much closer ideologically, Jaina's forces didn't really plunder Ashenvale all that much (I mean, they did when they went in after the Legion, but they didn't have a dedicated lumber harvesting expedition with a corrupted member that attacked the Night Elves *cough* Grom *cough*), Theramore and other Alliance territories were a long way away from Ashenvale (i.e. NE territory wasn't the natural area for expansion for the Alliance, unlike the Horde), the Alliance had an abundance of lumber and didn't need the one from Ashenvale.

Wow, just realised how much Blizzard hates the Night Elves. Not only did they destroy their lore and characters, but also forced them to join the "lame" faction that doesn't usually get a lot of love from Blizzard, but despite that they didn't even manage to save a lot of Ashenvale and still managed to loose Azshara.

But again imo, humans being good with Night Elves kinda ruins the idea of Warcraft 3. I mean not that Grom and later the Humans deforesting Ashenvale was any reference to Braz....South American deforestation of Amazon rainforests, a big political and ecological issue back in the day and even today, but Humans should imo be deforesting the forests in that regards.

---

Another thing Blood Elves joining the Horde. Surly after whole Garithos fiasco they had no place in the Alliance. But they had no more love for the Horde after Warcraft 2. And I guess they joined the Horde cause of Sylvanas, cause they'd totally love the Undead after Warcraft 3.

 

[deepstrasz]

And that's something unique to the orcs. The shamans of other cultures aren't warriors

Have you seen Ner'zhul? Or, Gul'dan who was initially a shaman?

Druid powers come from the connection to the Emerald dream, which was provided by their alliance with Cenarius and his children, his trust in them and their worship of him and other Night Elf wild gods.

I'd agree if we'd talk about Warcraft III only but the Runestones were made by high elven druids. I doubt those were linked to the Emerald Dream. So druidism might be more special for night elves, it is not exclusively pinned to the Dream.

But I see no way how could the Taurens get in contact with Cenarius and other Wild Gods and enter the Dream.

Actually this would make more sense than high elves being druids.

And the Alliance and Humans hate and don't trust the Undead, well neither the orcs do.

High->Blood Elves hate trolls but maybe not Darkspear ones as the sentiment is not shared?

However I don't think that Orc and Troll culture would support anything mage oriented.

Of course they would, warlocks are mages too, dark ones. Shamans are also magi, they conjure fires and whatnot.

If anything the Taurens would make a lot more sense as Blood Elf students being the most noble/sophisticated Horde race.

Orcs were also savage, mainly but they still had an elite. Many times, what is stupid does not necessarily give stupid offspring.

Joining the Horde wasn't really in question, because that would mean having to concede even more of the forest, so the only viable option was the Alliance.

But Thrall founded Orgrimmar in the Barrens outside Ashenvale. If he wanted lumber and strife with the nelves he'd not have gone to the more desert parts.
Nelves are hypocrites. They need lumber for their dwellings too. They don't sleep in caves, trees or bushes. I doubt they're using dead tree/ancient wood since that would mean rotten constructions. Also, all those arrows and bows still need lumber.

so if Thrall ever died, quit or whatever, the next leader of the Horde could have just attacked the Night Elves.

But first contact Mannoroth's spirit for some placebo blood.

but Humans should imo be deforesting the forests in that regards.

Everybody needs lumber. The question is who does it belong to?

 

[Venombite]

Have you seen Ner'zhul? Or, Gul'dan who was initially a shaman?

Yeah, for some strange reason Ner'Zhul was naked in WoD, but in lore he was confirmed to have been one of the greatest warriors on Draenor. And pretty much all Orc Shamans and former Shamans look like warriors, e.g Thrall, Drek'thar, Rhaegar Earthfury, Zuluhead etc...
Gul'dan was never a shaman, he was an outcast and couldn't be anything cause he was borne a cripple, watch Harbingers Gul'dan on youtube. However all other Orc Warlocks are powerful warriors as well(in lore). Warlock in game, shady spellcaster wearing cloth and wielding staves and wands, were based on humans rather than orcs, and even their class mount is a horse(typical human mount) instead of a wolf(typical orcish mount).
EDIT: Even on pretty much every one of his concept arts, Ner'zhul looks like a seasoned warrior, but for some strange reason he ended up being naked in WoD.

I'd agree if we'd talk about Warcraft III only but the Runestones were made by high elven druids. I doubt those were linked to the Emerald Dream. So druidism might be more special for night elves, it is not exclusively pinned to the Dream.

Well, no. High Elf druids were only mentioned in Warcraft 2, long before NE were even an idea, so they were retconed way before Wc3 even came out. The Runestones were instead made by the mages to hide the magics of the Sunwell. The explanation stands in Warcraft 3, as no runestones are mentioned in Wc3 Undead RoC Campaign.

Of course they would, warlocks are mages too, dark ones. Shamans are also magi, they conjure fires and whatnot.

No, they're the exact opposite. While mages utilize the Arcane, the power of Order, Warlocks utilze Fel, the power of Chaos. It's the complete opposite type of magic, while order requires sophistication and high education, well demonic Fel is quite the opposite.
As for the Shamans, well they're quite the opposite too, to both of these. Shamans powers come from the elements and worshiping the elements, being in tune with nature. They don't use the arcane in any way. Mage power does quite the opposite, it harms nature, and confronts nature in many ways. Example is that Shamans worship elements and the elements fight with them as a form of blessing, and even use their healing powers to help the shamans, while mages enslave the elements and force them to fight for them, and mage has no healing powers at all.

 

[Amigoltu]

Agreed about the classes. Tauren paladins is utterly ridiculous. Humans are the progenitors of the class Paladin, for goodness sake! Humans are the only race, that warships "The Light", and that's the religion, that created paladins... How in the world would Tauren learn it?!

But it goes further than that. Look at races and their allegiances to factions:

Night Elves:
First of all, starting with Night Elves. Why in the world would they have chosen to side with alliance? Back in Warcraft 3, Night Elves seemingly were not even aware of human existence at first, and they only fought orcs because Grom's people were butchering Ashenvale forest. However, by the end of the campaign, the 3 races have united:

"Just as the orcs, humans and night elves discarded their old hatreds and stood united against a common foe [...]"

After this, Night Elves would have become largely a neutral faction, not aligned with either Horde, or Alliance. Considering, that Thrall was still leading the Horde, as well, there would be no reason for Night Elves to fight with the Horde. Horde taking in Tauren would further work to mend relationships with the Night Elves.

If anything, at that point, the Night Elves might have had reasons to distrust Alliance, considering that Humans elected Varian Wrynn - an unknown individual - to be their ruler, instead of Jaina Proudmore, whom Night Elves were already well-acquainted with.

Undead/Forsaken:
Now, there's the matter of Sylvanas Windrunner. First of all, there is no way in the world, that she would have been taken into the Horde. Undead at that point would be seen as enemies by both Horde, and Alliance, and they'd see no difference between Forsaken and the Scourge. Because there is none - they are both Lich King's minions. Also, Tauren themselves would be categorically against allowing them in.

And thinking about it, why would Sylvanas go to the Horde? I'd imagine the first thing she would do after getting her freedom, is attempt to come back to Quel'thalas. Blood Elves might not be entirely keen on taking her in, but she was formerly one of their own, and they also might have had certain amount of curiosity there. Maybe Blood Elves would take on the task to cure the Forsaken? Or maybe they would simply join forces.

Whichever way it is, I would find it FAR more likely, that Blood Elves would align themselves with Forsaken, and not the Horde.

Lich King & Forsaken:
As far as it was explained/implied in Warcraft 3, Sylvanas got her free will back primarily when Lich King was injured by Eye of Sargeras, and his influence of Sylvanas, and other undead, was weakening (Arthas was weakening too).

However, after fusing with Ner'Zhul and becoming the Lich King, Arthas gained more power than either of them had before. How come Sylvanas and the other undead were not forced back into Lich King's servitude?

And how come Sylvanas could even survive without Lich King being there? After all, all of the Undead Scourge was created by Lich King necromantic powers, and sustained by them. Undead should die as soon as their link to Lich King gets severed, or Lich King dies.

Conclusion for Races and Factions
The way I see it, the game should have started out with 4 - 5 major factions, at least:

• Horde
• Alliance
• Night Elves
• Blood Elves & Forsaken (Or these two being separate as well)

Core game/General Story:
Generally though, considering the end of Warcraft 3, it's unlikely, that Horde and Alliance would even fight one another at all. Thrall and Jaina have made peace, and retained it even through Siege of Theramore Island, and afterwards. The two factions were also situated on different continents. There was literally no reason for the two to wage war. And this alone shows how WoW had to butcher the story, and abandon logic, to create an MMORPG experience.

But if you really wanted to continue the series, and the story, I believe, that 3rd person MMORPG was a wrong approach. The continuation should have been something more akin to Warcraft 2 with many smaller factions, that may, or may not have been fighting one another, while the larger threat of Lich King was looming over.

And lastly, The Setting:
In general, WoW started out in a very weird setting. WC3:TfT ended with the ominous note of Lich King's threat coming for Azeroth, but WoW Vanilla started out with... Nothing. Instead, they thought of making some bs "old god" matter...

And then, the first expansion had us fighting the Burning Legion again... Lol. And considering, that Azerothians were still dealing with the Burning Legion, they then made an expansion to re-introduce Lich King on top of that... It's hilarious, honestly.

And let's not even get started on Illidan and other shamelessly butchered characters...

 

[Chaosy]

As for Suramar, well, Maiev and Illidan totally wouldn't notice a giant arcane dome just behind the Tomb of Sargeras and dozens of degenerate beings (Withered) that strangely look like Night Elves, and Illidan, hungry for magic totally wouldn't go to check out the place full of magic. Suramar was meant to be something like Atlantis, a long lost empire sunked beneath the seas millenia ago, sort of archeological paradise. The Archer even says something like this to Maiev in TfT(a mission where you get to escort the runners).
And no, not all night elves are on Teldrassil, but they were unique to Kalimdor(Darkshore, Ashenvale, Feralas, even Silithus)

I mean if you go by the WoW map, the tomb is on a differant island than Suramar. So you can easily make the argument that normal people cannot see across the sea, a demon hunter would probably be able too though since they can see magic.

Illidan is not hungry for magic either, they are not nightborne/high elves.

In my eyes though, all of this is irrelevant. Is this a questionable move on blizzard's part?.. sure.
But saying that it ruins the lore also sounds way worse than it is.
It's not like another nearby city ruins the motivations of the characters in any way shape or form.

What ruins it for me. Is for example TBC storyline which made Kael into a straight-up villain with zero redeemable qualities. This, in my opinion, ruins wc3 lore.
But even then.. if you never play WoW it's not really ruined because it does not impact your wc3 play.

 

[deepstrasz]

Yeah, for some strange reason Ner'Zhul was naked in WoD

Who cares about WoD!? I'm talking about Warcraft II.

Gul'dan was never a shaman

You don't know the original lore. He might not have been for long but that is a different aspect.

watch Harbingers Gul'dan on youtube.

No thanks.

Ner'zhul looks like a seasoned warrior, but for some strange reason he ended up being naked in WoD.

Ner'zhul was a strong orc like most but that doesn't mean he should have mandatorily worn armour. You have a fixated idea because of Thrall. Remember that Thrall took the armour from Orgrim Doomhammer.

Well, no. High Elf druids were only mentioned in Warcraft 2, long before NE were even an idea, so they were retconed way before Wc3 even came out. The Runestones were instead made by the mages to hide the magics of the Sunwell. The explanation stands in Warcraft 3, as no runestones are mentioned in Wc3 Undead RoC Campaign.

Show me where it says in Warcraft III that the runestones were made by mages and that high elves had no druids.
By your logic, there's no point to even discuss the whole topic since WoW retconned loads of stuff from the RTS games.

No, they're the exact opposite. While mages utilize the Arcane, the power of Order, Warlocks utilze Fel, the power of Chaos. It's the complete opposite type of magic, while order requires sophistication and high education, well demonic Fel is quite the opposite.

So you're OK with WoW stuff only when it suits you? Then be OK with all other stuff that has been changed like Taurens being druids.

Example is that Shamans worship elements and the elements fight with them as a form of blessing, and even use their healing powers to help the shamans, while mages enslave the elements and force them to fight for them, and mage has no healing powers at all.

Mages can conjure food and stuff from what I remember in original WoW which heals
Mages using the elements in an aggressive way does not contradict the fact that both shamans and mages are wizards. There, another word for all since it's not a class. Warlocks, shamans, mages, everybody who uses magiks are wizards. Good? Good.

Agreed about the classes. Tauren paladins is utterly ridiculous. Humans are the progenitors of the class Paladin, for goodness sake! Humans are the only race, that warships "The Light", and that's the religion, that created paladins... How in the world would Tauren learn it?!

I don't know man, how could you convert to another religion or study Chinese martial arts? If they explained how the Light got to them or the other way around, it's all OK.

Maybe Blood Elves would take on the task to cure the Forsaken?

You mean eradicate them. There's no cure for undeath. It's like saying the cure for life is death.

However, after fusing with Ner'Zhul and becoming the Lich King, Arthas gained more power than either of them had before. How come Sylvanas and the other undead were not forced back into Lich King's servitude?

Maybe because the LK was too far away to reconnect and the Forsaken had found a way to block the connection.

And how come Sylvanas could even survive without Lich King being there? After all, all of the Undead Scourge was created by Lich King necromantic powers, and sustained by them. Undead should die as soon as their link to Lich King gets severed, or Lich King dies.

Sylvanas was rage-hatred driven. She became a restless spirit. She wasn't meant to be just a raised corpse. The character was made a banshee.

Illidan is not hungry for magic either,

Indeed. He's addicted.

 

[Amigoltu]

I don't know man, how could you convert to another religion or study Chinese martial arts? If they explained how the Light got to them or the other way around, it's all OK.

4 points to this:

• Humans were part of Alliance, and Tauren - Horde. According to WoW's own lore, these two factions are at war. How would you learn the religion of your enemies, at the time of war?
• Tauren already have a religion - they warship "The Earthmother". Their beliefs are fundamentally different from those of humans.
• Tauren had very little contact with humans by this point. And when they did, it was primarily Jaina and her troops.
• Tauren had pretty much no contact with human paladins. After all, Arthas made sure to thin out their numbers, and kill the greatest paladin of the time.

You mean eradicate them. There's no cure for undeath. It's like saying the cure for life is death.

Not eradicate them. Rather, bring them back to life, or at least stop their rotting. Maybe try and give more of them their mind back.

Maybe because the LK was too far away to reconnect and the Forsaken had found a way to block the connection.

Lich King was definitely NOT too far away, considering he was controlling all of those undead just fine before his weakening. And take in mind, again, that Lich King became much stronger after fusing with Arthas. Also, the Forsaken are all minions of Lich King. Doubtfully there's a way to "block" connection with the being, that literally sustains your undeath.

Sylvanas was rage-hatred driven. She became a restless spirit. She wasn't meant to be just a raised corpse. The character was made a banshee.

Banshee is just another type of undead. Nothing special. And Sylvanas did retain her elven personality after Lich King's hold on her weakened. Yes, she was enraged, but her plan to hunt down Arthas failed when he successfully went to Northrend. That's when Sylvanas needed a place to go to. And that could only be Quel'thalas, her former home.

 

[The_Silent]

A long time ago I decided to just ignore that wow (supposedly) exists in the same universe as wc3. Made it much more enjoyable.

 

[deepstrasz]

Humans were part of Alliance, and Tauren - Horde. According to WoW's own lore, these two factions are at war. How would you learn the religion of your enemies, at the time of war?

Well, blood elves know the ways of the light, no? And they belong to the Horde.

Tauren already have a religion - they warship "The Earthmother". Their beliefs are fundamentally different from those of humans.

Irrelevant. Many people convert to Buddhism because it's cool.

Tauren had very little contact with humans by this point. And when they did, it was primarily Jaina and her troops.

Missionaries ?

Tauren had pretty much no contact with human paladins. After all, Arthas made sure to thin out their numbers, and kill the greatest paladin of the time.

After all that was a long time ago.

Not eradicate them. Rather, bring them back to life, or at least stop their rotting. Maybe try and give more of them their mind back.

It's like saying you want them to kept on life support, brain damaged.

And take in mind, again, that Lich King became much stronger after fusing with Arthas.

Right but that took time for both to adapt, hence the probable delay between TfT and WotLK.

Doubtfully there's a way to "block" connection with the being, that literally sustains your undeath.

Sylvanas et al. probably found a clumsy hack.

That's when Sylvanas needed a place to go to. And that could only be Quel'thalas, her former home.

Indeed there was some weird stuff about Sylvanas not wanting to take back Quel'thalas and insisted on Lordaeron's ruined capital city. I'm not sure what exactly was the plan with that. Maybe Chris Metzen had this Quel'thalas being rebuilt thing planned from then and it made it to TBC, who knows.

 

[MasterBlaster]

There's too much to answer I'll pick and choose some interesting bits

But they had no more love for the Horde after Warcraft 2. And I guess they joined the Horde cause of Sylvanas, cause they'd totally love the Undead after Warcraft 3.

Well, that was stupid - I agree. Even if Garithos was a racist prick, that still doesn't compare to basically siding with a faction that has a clan from a race that is their long time enemy (Trolls), race that nearly wiped them out in the Second War (Orcs) and one that ruined Quel'Thalas and destroyed the Sunwell (Undead). Hoping that Sylvanas still has enough loyalty to Silvermoon to make it worth isn't enough to make the Horde a more natural fit for the Blood Elves.

Humans are the only race, that warships "The Light"

LOL at the bolded part Warships

Anyway, if Humans were the only race that worshipped the Light, then I suppose these guys didn't exist, right?

Considering, that Thrall was still leading the Horde, as well, there would be no reason for Night Elves to fight with the Horde.

I've explained that in detail above - yes, Thrall was honorable and aided the Night Elves against the Legion, but his pretty much second-in-command destroyed a big chunk of Ashenvale, drank demon blood and killed Cenarius, so it's 50-50, which means that if Thrall stopped being the Warchief - from Night Elves' perspective - there's a solid chance that his successor might not be as "friendly", especially since both races shared the desire for the same land and resources.

Night Elves would have become largely a neutral faction, not aligned with either Horde, or Alliance

And they were neutral - up to the point where the Horde (through the Warsong Clan) broke their side of the deal and started harvesting lumber in Ashenvale despite being given Azshara specifically to avoid them doing that.

the Night Elves might have had reasons to distrust Alliance

Yeah, sure, why side with faction that you have a 95% good track record with, when you can side with a faction that half the time burns your homes and kills your most esteemed heroes ) Sound logic.

First of all, there is no way in the world, that she would have been taken into the Horde. Undead at that point would be seen as enemies by both Horde, and Alliance

Also explained in my post above - the Undead provided a very strategically important advantage of having a beachhead in Northern Lordaeron and were a fairly safe option to ally as they were literally on the other continent and hated by pretty much everyone (i.e. desperate to get an ally).

And thinking about it, why would Sylvanas go to the Horde?

Because her forces have just finished a very bloody internal conflict, i.e. were seriously depleted, had no way of replenishing their numbers and were either hated or distrusted by pretty much everyone around them? Simply put, if she didn't join the Horde, the Alliance would eventually just wipe her out.

Blood Elves might not be entirely keen on taking her in, but she was formerly one of their own

So your argument is that Sylvanas shouldn't be accepted into the Horde, because the Horde hated undead, but at the same time Blood Elves who had a lot more reasons to hate undead should somehow consider taking Sylvanas and her forces in? This doesn't make any sense.

I would find it FAR more likely, that Blood Elves would align themselves with Forsaken, and not the Horde

It's the opposite. The Horde fled the Eastern Kingdoms before the plague started, so the only undead they fought were the ones employed by the Legion in Ashenvale. That's a lot less "personal" and "meaningful" reason to hate or distrust the undead than having your homeland destroyed, font of power defiled and king murdered.

There was literally no reason for the two to wage war.

No reason? How about the fact that both the leader of the Horde and the Alliance were slaves to the members of the opposite faction? How about the fact that both sides had very serious misgivings towards each other? Ultimately it doesn't really matter that Jaina and Thrall were friends or if the factions had a valid reason to actually go to war - what matters is that they both mostly hated and viewed each other as a major threat.

How would you learn the religion of your enemies, at the time of war?

Blood Elves?

Tauren already have a religion - they warship "The Earthmother". Their beliefs are fundamentally different from those of humans.

And? There's nothing in the story that says that the Light is a "religion" - yes, the Humans have turned it into one, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be just some big primal force that answers to anyone with enough affinity towards it that is considered worthy.

And don't say that it's a retcon - it isn't, because as far as I remember the Humans didn't really know what the Light was, so there was room for expansion here.

Rather, bring them back to life, or at least stop their rotting. Maybe try and give more of them their mind back.

Why would the Blood Elves devote their dwindling resources and magical powers to help supposedly redeemed abominations from a race that caused them to be in this dire situation to begin with? If you want to argue logic then the logic here is - if the Blood Elves really wanted to help the undead, they'd consider the mercy of a swift death to be the most viable solution.

Doubtfully there's a way to "block" connection with the being, that literally sustains your undeath.

Doubtfully in your opinion, but again - the nature of the control the Lich King maintained over the Scourge wasn't really explained at that point, so the writers had free reign to just go with the "once a strong enough undead is freed from mind control, he can't be controlled again" option. And they did - after all, it was their story to tell and if that was the rule they wanted to implement then that's fair.

Banshee is just another type of undead. Nothing special.

Uhm... what?! Banshees were specifically raised as these tormented, enraged women meant to share their misery, pain and sorrow with everyone around them. That's what they were created for, that what Sylvanas was. She even mentions it in W3 that she went through agony...

And that could only be Quel'thalas, her former home.

"What joy is there in this curse? We are still undead, sister - still monstrosities. What are we if not slaves to this torment" - Sylvanas, after getting her free will back.

The reason why I'm pasting this quote is that Sylvanas didn't just know that Quel'Thalas wouldn't accept her, but she also likely felt like a monster that no longer has a home or deserves to return to her homeland. Or that even if somehow her people would take her back, she wouldn't feel like she belongs with them, not anymore.

 

[Amigoltu]

LOL at the bolded part Warships

Anyway, if Humans were the only race that worshipped the Light, then I suppose these guys didn't exist, right?

Ah well typos happen. That picture is of an Elven sorcerer, and, if I am not mistaken, there was never any mention of them worshiping "The Light".

I've explained that in detail above - yes, Thrall was honorable and aided the Night Elves against the Legion, but his pretty much second-in-command destroyed a big chunk of Ashenvale, drank demon blood and killed Cenarius, so it's 50-50, which means that if Thrall stopped being the Warchief - from Night Elves' perspective - there's a solid chance that his successor might not be as "friendly", especially since both races shared the desire for the same land and resources.

Firstly, it's not Thrall, who drank the blood and killed Cenarius. Those, who did, were done for at that point.
Secondly, this was before Orcs and Night Elves made Truce. They did it afterwards, forgetting their "past hatreds".

And they were neutral - up to the point where the Horde (through the Warsong Clan) broke their side of the deal and started harvesting lumber in Ashenvale despite being given Azshara specifically to avoid them doing that.

And that is one of WoW's retconns. Thrall directly interacted with Tyrande and Furion. He knew what they were all about. He'd have never allowed Horde touch Ashenvale again. Plus, Warsong Clan was all but destroyed after Grom drank the blood and later was defeated.

Yeah, sure, why side with faction that you have a 95% good track record with, when you can side with a faction that half the time burns your homes and kills your most esteemed heroes ) Sound logic.

At this point I am assuming you haven't played Warcraft 3, or do not remember the story. Again, past was past at that point, and Grom was the perpetrator, anyways. He's already paid and repaid the price by ending Manoroth and sacrificing himself to do so.

Also explained in my post above - the Undead provided a very strategically important advantage of having a beachhead in Northern Lordaeron and were a fairly safe option to ally as they were literally on the other continent and hated by pretty much everyone (i.e. desperate to get an ally).

How would Undead have even made contact with Horde? Sylvanas, being ex-High-Elf, had never actually even seen the Horde. How in the world would she make alliance with them? And the "beachhead" isn't even needed to the Horde if they have no reason to fight Alliance (will get to that later).

but at the same time Blood Elves who had a lot more reasons to hate undead should somehow consider taking Sylvanas and her forces in?

Cuz Sylvanas was previously one of their own. She was obviously not following Lich King anymore. Hell, with the way Sylvanas looks, she might have even blended in, as long as she covered her face a little.

No reason? How about the fact that both the leader of the Horde and the Alliance were slaves to the members of the opposite faction? How about the fact that both sides had very serious misgivings towards each other? Ultimately it doesn't really matter that Jaina and Thrall were friends or if the factions had a valid reason to actually go to war - what matters is that they both mostly hated and viewed each other as a major threat.

Again, they already made truce, forgetting the past. Like grown ups and responsible leaders. Starting massive war just because of hurt feelings, or some grudge over being imprisoned during war makes no sense.

Blood Elves?

And? There's nothing in the story that says that the Light is a "religion" - yes, the Humans have turned it into one, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be just some big primal force that answers to anyone with enough affinity towards it that is considered worthy.

Arguing semantics here. Point is, that only human paladins worshipped this "Light". Other nations and races had other types of religions (or whatever you call them). Tauren, in particular, worshipped "Earthmother", and their entire culture is fundamentally different. It's like american-indians turning to Christianity of their own accord, during colonization Era. Not gonna happen.

If you want to argue logic then the logic here is - if the Blood Elves really wanted to help the undead, they'd consider the mercy of a swift death to be the most viable solution.

Because those were their own, previously thought lost, brothers and sisters. Sylvanas herself. People are sentimental.

Doubtfully in your opinion, but again - the nature of the control the Lich King maintained over the Scourge wasn't really explained at that point, so the writers had free reign to just go with the "once a strong enough undead is freed from mind control, he can't be controlled again" option. And they did - after all, it was their story to tell and if that was the rule they wanted to implement then that's fair.

So, that suddenly excuses any kind of inconsistencies in the story, right? And it was actually explained, that it's the Lich King, with his necromantic powers, that raised all those undead, so they are all his minions. The question is whether they needed to be linked to him constantly, or if his power was only needed to raise them.

Anyways, how come then, that all those Death Knights, like Darion were ever even under Lich King's control, and then suddenly out of it? Lich King certainly did not release them, and saying they were brainwashed is straight bs.

Uhm... what?! Banshees were specifically raised as these tormented, enraged women meant to share their misery, pain and sorrow with everyone around them. That's what they were created for, that what Sylvanas was. She even mentions it in W3 that she went through agony...

Honey, all undead went through effed-up bollocks. Sylvanas ain't some snowflake.

 

[Chaosy]

Indeed. He's addicted.

I have never heard or seen any hints of this.
The Blood Elves drained mana from other creatures and their addiction is what drove Kael to join forces with illidan as he hoped for a cure.
Nightborne literary lose their mind completely when shut out from the Nightwell, they even die if they do not get their fix.

Meanwhile, Illidan locks himself up as the jailor of sargeras without any source of magic to fuel this supposed addiction. He was also locked up for ten thousand years without any apparent withdrawal symptoms. Also locked up for a few years between tbc and legion without magic.

Where does he show any sign of addiction? he is just power hungry, not addicted.

 

[Venombite]

@MasterBlaster I kinda agree with @Amigoltu here about the Tauren. I mean even back in Vanilla their religion kinda shifted from the Earthmother to more of a Sun and Moon worship. But I guess that's the expending of a religion and had to be done to redeem Tauren Druids in lore somewhat. I mean it's still that kinda a Native American spiritual religion. But making them Priests and Paladins, worshipers of Holy Light is kinda shifting from Native American spiritualism to Catholicism(or Cthulhun sects in case of Shadow Priests) and it doesn't fit at all. If anything it's the exact opposite of one another, like Native Americans accepting Catholicism. Sure it's being open minded and stuff, but I don't think that Tauren from Wc3 would ever except abandoning the Earthmother. Blizzard even tried to explain that it's rather focusing on the Sun than the Moon, but again that's a Druid thing, rather than Priest/Paladin.

@deepstrasz Honestly I wouldn't comment Gul'dan's look in Wc2 in any way. He just looks like a normal Death Knight unit, it's how heroes looked back in Warcraft 2, they received their own look only in Wc2 BtDP in which Gul'dan doesn't appear at all, so his look in Wc2 isn't really worth a comment. If anything it even fits his story in Harbingers, rather than the original. I don't believe Ner'Zhul ever appeared in Warcraft 2 in any shape or form so we don't know how he looked like without WoD.
Fel is not the retcon in any way. It was said, I believe even in Wc1 that Warlocks use some evil magic, it was just given a name and green effect. And green effect was there even in Wc3(Infernals, Doomguards, Infernal Machines etc...)
As for High Elf Druids, well they weren't mentioned post Wc2 anywhere. Not even the runestones were mentioned anywhere. And when Arthas killed some 90% of all High Elves, there wasn't a single Druid to be seen. It was a thing retconed by Wc3, I believe that the game and even the manual are pretty clear that Druids in Wc3 are Night Elf exclusive. It was obviously a thing in Wc2 when High Elves were more like Elves in Homm5 rather than High Elves of Wc3.(though High Elf Druids didn't appear in game in Wc2 either) And in all honesty, I'm fine with Wc3 retcons of Wc2, Wc3 is my baby Wc2 is not.

I have never heard or seen any hints of this.
The Blood Elves drained mana from other creatures and their addiction is what drove Kael to join forces with illidan as he hoped for a cure.
Nightborne literary lose their mind completely when shut out from the Nightwell, they even die if they do not get their fix.

Meanwhile, Illidan locks himself up as the jailor of sargeras without any source of magic to fuel this supposed addiction. He was also locked up for ten thousand years without any apparent withdrawal symptoms. Also locked up for a few years between tbc and legion without magic.

Where does he show any sign of addiction? he is just power hungry, not addicted.

Actually all former Highborne(High/Blood Elves, Nightborne, Naga, Satyrs) share magical addiction. Lady Vashj says so to Kael on a few occasions in TfT campaign, when persuading him to join Illidan. So both Illidan and his army, magic hungry, would probably go to check out the city full of magic. And Suramar Nighthold and Tomb of Sargeras were part of the same palace before the Sundering, so I assume they weren't that far away. Illidan's biggest problem in Maiev cell wasn't isolation, he wasn't even tortured, it was his constant starvation and lack of magic that was driving him insane. Him ending up as jailor of Sargeras was actually a happy ending, he ended up with a few Titans, natural fonts of magic, so it was the exact opposite, he was in a place with the most magic in the entire universe.

 

[The_Silent]

Illidan died on the foothills of the frozen throne. Everything else is a retcon.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Ah well typos happen.

And the same typo happened twice in the same post?

Anyway, I wasn't laughing at you - mistakes happen. It was laughing because that just sounded funny

That picture is of an Elven sorcerer

I might replay Warcraft 3, but I think you should do that too as it appears you either don't know or don't remember how a High Elf Priest looked like

there was never any mention of them worshiping "The Light"

It was a Priest, he used the Light... How much more do you need?

Besides, logically - if there were High Elves that used the Light, then either:
a) They had to also worship the Light, ergo you're wrong about Humans being the only ones who did.
b) They didn't worship the Light, but were still able to use it, ergo I'm right in saying that perhaps starting a religion wasn't necessary to use the Light.

Firstly, it's not Thrall, who drank the blood and killed Cenarius. Those, who did, were done for at that point.

You might want to re-read what I've said, because you clearly didn't understand it.

Once again - yes, Thrall was honorable, but his pretty much second-in-command (Grom) wasn't. Well, at least not in Night Elves' eyes. Anyway, ultimately it's irrelevant that Grom died and some of his followers were purged, because regardless of what happened to him, he did set a very dangerous precedent - i.e. he showed that Orcs can be corupted and lose themselves in their bloodlust.

And it's that precedent that should cast serious doubt about the Orcs being trustworthy in the long run, because due to Grom actions there is always a question - what if something like that happens again? Any sensible Night Elf leader should ask himself that question, especially considering the Horde is building up their homeland next to Ashenvale borders and needs resources that the Night Elves have.

Other valid questions that come to mind in association to the last one are - what if Thall gets corrupted just like Grom did? What if Thrall gets killed by someone like Grom? What if the next Warchief is like Grom? What if most orcs are like Grom, not like Thrall? These are all valid questions.

Secondly, this was before Orcs and Night Elves made Truce. They did it afterwards, forgetting their "past hatreds".

That's a very idealistic approach - making peace does not erase past experiences or make people forget about their losses or fears. That's just not how the world works. It's perfectly possible to not fight with someone, but still "secretly" hate him or have misgivings towards him.

And that is one of WoW's retconns.

I think you don't understand what a retcon actually is.

Let me explain - a retcon is a situation where you change an already established lore. In other words, if you have the lore say that "X happen" and you say that "X didn't happen" then that's a retcon. But if the lore doesn't say anything or doesn't provide any details then that's not a retcon - that's an addition. And when the lore says that something happened and you say what happened after that then that's also not a retcon, but a story progression.

Warsong Clan entering Ashenvale after the war didn't change the existing story one bit, it was just another event in that story, ergo it was just story progression - and one that was actually made sense (which I explain below), not a retcon. I hope you get it now.

He'd have never allowed Horde touch Ashenvale again.

Just like he specifically told Grom to not touch the Humans in one of the missions of the Orc campaign, but the Warsong Clan engaged them anyway and as far as we know never actually got punished for breaking that order? Like heck, Thrall didn't even try to stop them back then, when he saw that Grommash attacked the Humans, he joined the attack instead of moving in to get Grom back in line.

I think that situation shows that some Orc clans, specifically the Warsong, simply weren't disciplined enough and had the tendency to not follow orders, so it doesn't really matter whether Thrall would allow them to touch Ashenvale again or not.

And yes, while Thrall was very civilized, some Orcs were still fairly savage and warmongering people. Again, Warsong Clan is a perfect example here. This is why it makes sense that some Orcs could have raided the borders or even attacked Ashenvale despite Thrall's orders.

Plus, Warsong Clan was all but destroyed after Grom drank the blood and later was defeated

Warsong being completely destroyed is just your assumption, this was never directly stated in any od the sources. In actuality, there's a solid possibility that when Thrall engaged with the Warsong Clan, he simply went straight for Grom and tried to spare as many other Warsong orcs as possible. After all, the original W3 mission didn't ask the player to destroy the Warsong Clan, but to capture Grom.

Anyway, based on Thrall's character, it would make sense if despite their betrayal, he still saw Warsong orcs as his people and wanted to find a way to save them instead of just wiping them out. Also, it can be logically assumed that once Thrall saved Grom and learned about Mannoroth, he hoped that killing the demon might break the control he had over the Orcs and instead of going after what remained of the Warsong Clan, he opted to go straight for Mannoroth.

And since that actually did break the blood haze, the Warsong was now free and Thrall doesn't strike me as the type that would go on an execute his own people, so chances are that they were forgiven and accepted back into the Horde. In that sense, it's pretty likely that a part of the Warsong Clan survived.

At this point I am assuming you haven't played Warcraft 3, or do not remember the story.

I'm not sure this remark was really needed, but if that's the tone you decided to go with, I think I adjusted my accordingly. Also, to be honest, I'm making the same assumption about you.

Again, past was past at that point, and Grom was the perpetrator, anyways. He's already paid and repaid the price by ending Manoroth and sacrificing himself to do so.

Doesn't matter - yes, Grom was dead, but his death didn't erase the resentment the Night Elves likely had towards his kind as a whole. And it set a very dangerous precent, because if the Night Elves already knew that one of the Orc leaders was able to get corrupted and go all berserk on them, then obviously there was a chance that something like that could happen again. Such precedent did not exist towards the Alliance.

And about your whole "past is past" argument... Look at real life - let's say someone in your town commits a robery, gets caught and convicted, serves his time and publicly apologizes for his crime, claiming that he's a reformed person now. Past should be past, right? Yeah, it should, but I can bet you that if someone commited a robery in your town again, people would still remember that person who did it before and point their fingers at him. That's how resentment and prejudice work.

Saying that "Orcs made peace with the Night Elves, past was forgotten" is idealistic. It wasn't forgotten, who knows if it was even forgiven. Hatred, prejudice, resentment, fear, distrust - these things don't just turn into butterlies and rainbows with a snap of a finger just because "we're at peace now". Come on.

P.S. Grom sacrificing himself against Mannoroth may have repaid his crimes towards the Orcs, but didn't really do anything to repay Night Elves their losses.

How would Undead have even made contact with Horde? Sylvanas, being ex-High-Elf, had never actually even seen the Horde.

You know what's funny - you're telling me to replay W3 and act as if I don't know the lore, but later you go on saying blatantly false things like this one...

So, here's some news for you - Sylvanas was alive when the Horde attacked Quel'Thalas and she fought against them. Is that enough for "actually seeing the Horde"?

Besides, even if we assume that she somehow didn't see the Horde - her sister, Alleria, left to fight the Horde and disappeared for years after the Dark Portal was shut down. And Sylvanas was the Ranger-General of Silvermoon, which means she had to have had studied history and knew what the potential threats to her nation were, that was pretty much a part of her job... So even if she didn't fight the Horde personally, she had every reason to know about them.

How in the world would she make alliance with them? And the "beachhead" isn't even needed to the Horde if they have no reason to fight Alliance (will get to that later).

Answering your first question - oh, I don't know, she could have just sent an envoy? You know, just like most alliances in history were made?

And the second question - yes, the "beachhead" is needed, because it's a serious strategical and political advantage, even if meant only as a deterrent. Why? The Horde had a history of conflict with the Alliance, they knew the Alliance as a whole viewed them as a threat and was hostile towards them, so even if we assume that the Horde didn't expect to engage in another war with the Alliance, having that beachhead in northern Eastern Kingdoms that screamed "if you attack us, we will have no problems retaliating" was strategically very important.

If you want a real life example - ask yourself why Russia is placing troops and balistic missiles in the Kaliningrad area. I don't imagine they expect a full-on war with NATO, but - it's a very nice deterrent should NATO somehow get any ideas. Which only shows that practicality isn't always anything - there are times where strategy and politics are just as important.

Cuz Sylvanas was previously one of their own.

So the Blood Elves wouldn't care that Sylvanas was undead and as a Lich King's slave took part in the attack on Silvermoon, because they're sentimental towards her once being a High Elf?

I have no words. Of course they would care, of course they wouldn't trust her. For Blood Elves to even start considering taking Sylvanas in, they'd have to first accept the idea that the undead are more than just monsters, that they can somehow maintain parts of who they were in life, which was hard to do due to prejudice and past experience, and the possibility that an undead can have and maintain free will, which there was zero proof of at the time. Heck, that's something even you had doubts about.

But regardless, even if they could somehow do all of that, why would try believe Sylvanas? Why would they trust her? Why wouldn't they suspect that it's some trick? I mean, at this point they had very little reasons to not just shoot Sylvanas on sight, not questions asked, so... Yeah.

Do you really not see why the Blood Elves would have reservations to take Sylvanas back in? Why they could distrust her or fear that she might get mind-controlled again? How they might despise her based on the blatant prejudice and hatered they had towards her kind? Come on... Being one of their own, even a hero that died sacrificing her life for her homeland, is not enough to erase all of that.

Hell, with the way Sylvanas looks, she might have even blended in, as long as she covered her face a little.

WHAT?! It wasn't about her appearance, it was about what she now was. No matter how much she covered her face, as soon as regular people around her discovered that it was her, they would distrust and fear her, if not outright try to take out their hatred and resentment towards undead on her.

Remember, we're not talking years after the Third War ended and the Forsaken have at least proven to be different than the Scourge - we're talking pretty much right after the fall of Quel'Thalas, when the wounds were still fresh and emotions high. There's no way in hell that Sylvanas could "blend in".

You know what's likely, though? If Sylvanas tried to reintegrate herself into the Blood Elf society, she would either be chased out by a mob with pitch... pitchwands

Again, they already made truce, forgetting the past.

Again, that's not how truce or peace works - ever. Just because you stop fighting, doesn't mean you magically forget all the bad things someone caused you. That's why terms like resentment exist.

Starting massive war just because of hurt feelings, or some grudge over being imprisoned during war makes no sense.

Funny that you say that, considering hurt feelings, grudges and misgivings played a vital role in many wars in our reality. Like, come on, we literally had wars that happened, because some princess refused to marry some prince or because someone was butthurt that he was ommited in the line of succession...

Does it make sense from a rational level? No. But that's just how it is.

Point is, that only human paladins worshipped this "Light".

Still doesn't mean that one had to "worship" the Light in order to be able to use it.

Because those were their own, previously thought lost, brothers and sisters.

Most of the Forsaken were former citizens of Lordaeron, which the Blood Elves couldn't really care less about at this point.

People are sentimental.

And people also like harboring hatred, resentment and prejudice.

And it was actually explained, that it's the Lich King, with his necromantic powers, that raised all those undead, so they are all his minions.

Yes, it was explained that the Lich King raised them and had control over them, but as I've said - the mechanics of that control, including whether or not the control is automatically re-established after a "shortage of power", were never really explained. You're confusing giving an over-arching description of how something works and providing details of the mechanics that come into play.

Following your logic, the Forsaken existing is a "retcon" of RoC, because in RoC undead were portayed as mindless slaves. Once again, it's not a retcon if you take a lore statement like: "undead are mind controlled by the Lich King" and turn it into "undead are mind controlled into Lich King, but that control can be broken". That's adding details and expanding the lore. A retcon would happen if you took that original sentence and said: "well, we know we said that undead are mind controlled by the LK, but actually not all of them are, some of them have free will". Do you see the diference? The first one ADDS to what was already know, the second one CHANGES it.

So, that suddenly excuses any kind of inconsistencies in the story, right?

What we're talking about is not an "inconsistency", but an addition to the story that you just happen to not like and thus you try to frame it as "inconsistent", because it fits your desired story outcome.

Once again, all we knew was the the Lich King controlled the undead, how that connection works (is it permanent, what happens if it breaks, can it be re-restablished, etc.) wasn't said. Blizzard didn't change the lore or made it inconsistent by creating the Forsaken - they just filled a previously existing gap in the lore in a way that allowed them to move the plot in a direction that they wanted to. That's fair.

Honey, all undead went through effed-up bollocks. Sylvanas ain't some snowflake.

"Honey"?

Well, listen up, "darling" - undead were created with a purpose in mind. Abominations were puposefully made huge and bulky, because they were meant to be these tough and strong frontline combatants. Shades were incorporeal, because they were meant to be stealthy. Ghouls were mindless, because they were meant to be disposeable. Death Knights or Liches retained more of their personality and intelligence, because they were meant to be the commanders. And so on.

What I'm getting at is that not all undead are the same, they were created with different purposes in mind and thus are different. In that vein, Banshees were meant to spread pain and terror in enemy ranks, that's why they were specifically created to be these tormented, vengeful ghosts.

It's not about being a snowflake, it's about certain characteristics that each type of the undead have. And Sylvanas just so happened to start out as a Banshee, i.e. she shared the characteristics of other Banshees, which does have certain implications.

 

[Chaosy]

Actually all former Highborne(High/Blood Elves, Nightborne, Naga, Satyrs) share magical addiction. Lady Vashj says so to Kael on a few occasions in TfT campaign, when persuading him to join Illidan. So both Illidan and his army, magic hungry, would probably go to check out the city full of magic. And Suramar Nighthold and Tomb of Sargeras were part of the same palace before the Sundering, so I assume they weren't that far away. Illidan's biggest problem in Maiev cell wasn't isolation, he wasn't even tortured, it was his constant starvation and lack of magic that was driving him insane. Him ending up as jailor of Sargeras was actually a happy ending, he ended up with a few Titans, natural fonts of magic, so it was the exact opposite, he was in a place with the most magic in the entire universe.

This does not make much sense actually.

Firstly, only the magic users would be addicted. And not everyone used the well of eternity.
For this point, Illidan was studying to be a druid at first before later changing to arcane. This means his addiction would be fairly mild at the time.
So whatever addiction he built up in that time is clearly long gone at the time of wc3. As once again, no symptoms of withdrawal.

It does not really change the fact that he is has not displayed anything that hints of addiction. There are no actions taken to feed himself and there is no consequence for this, so there is simply no addiction.

 

[deepstrasz]

And don't say that it's a retcon - it isn't, because as far as I remember the Humans didn't really know what the Light was, so there was room for expansion here.

Well, the manual of Orcs & Humans mentions God, heavens and archangels In the second RTS game's manual it's guardians of the heavens Exorcism is cast by calling the forces of light and purity.
Holy is mentioned in all three game manuals.
It is not explain of course what it is like most of everything. I guess it's just the absence of darkness

It's like american-indians turning to Christianity of their own accord, during colonization Era. Not gonna happen.

Actually no. That's the difference. I don't think it was forced like in that example. Besides Humans didn't colonize Thunder Bluff.

Lich King certainly did not release them, and saying they were brainwashed is straight bs.

Actually, that was the point, Death Knights being resocialized warriors of the LK as seen with Arthas' madness. Otherwise, LK would have lost against Illidan in TfT.
However, there are some DKs in some campaign chapters in northern Azeroth (continent). I'm not sure who they belong to.

Where does he show any sign of addiction? he is just power hungry, not addicted.

point there.
However:
"Lady Vashj: I know this hunger, Kael. Like us, your people are addicted to magic! It flowed through your veins for ever ten thousand years. And now, with the corruption of your land and the Sunwell that empowered you..."
"Illidan: You were right to come to me, Kael. I share the pain of your addiction, your hunger for magic."

Honestly I wouldn't comment Gul'dan's look in Wc2 in any way. He just looks like a normal Death Knight unit

See the art in the WcII manual. Also, how he was portrayed in Warcraft III.

they received their own look only in Wc2 BtDP

No they did not. What heroes received in the expansion is actual custom soundsets.

I don't believe Ner'Zhul ever appeared in Warcraft 2 in any shape or form so we don't know how he looked like without WoD.

What you believe is irrelevant when I'm debating with facts:
Watch from 3:43 onward: link.

Fel is not the retcon in any way. It was said, I believe even in Wc1 that Warlocks use some evil magic

Warcraft II manual and no, it's not named fel. There's talk about chaos but not as a form of magik.

It was obviously a thing in Wc2 when High Elves were more like Elves in Homm5 rather than High Elves of Wc3

You mean like in LotR. HoMMV is the future from Warcraft III.
I think it was either a lame retcon because of night elves having druids instead or they just missed it. You can't just erase things completely. Runestones are the reason why Ogre Magi exist man.
Also, there are Runestones in RoC's manual on the Quel'thalas map.

I'm fine with Wc3 retcons of Wc2, Wc3 is my baby Wc2 is not.

I'm not. The first two games worked very well. The retcons of Orcs & Humans in Warcraft II had an additive nature. Afterwards, the writer(s) didn't seem to care about consistency but what suited them or felt cool at the moment.

And it's that precedent that should cast serious doubt about the Orcs being trustworthy in the long run, because due to Grom actions there is always a question - what if something like that happens again? Any sensible Night Elf leader should ask himself that question, especially considering the Horde is building up their homeland next to Ashenvale borders and needs resources that the Night Elves have.

Other valid questions that come to mind in association to the last one are - what if Thall gets corrupted just like Grom did? What if Thrall gets killed by someone like Grom? What if the next Warchief is like Grom? What if most orcs are like Grom, not like Thrall? These are all valid questions.

Poor Germans. What if all of them are Nazi?

I think that situation shows that some Orc clans, specifically the Warsong, simply weren't disciplined enough and had the tendency to not follow orders, so it doesn't really matter whether Thrall would allow them to touch Ashenvale again or not.

By exiling the remainders of the Highborne, they thought no others would rise again, and surprisingly none didn't. Night Elves are extremists.

Once again, it's not a retcon if you take a lore statement like: "undead are mind controlled by the Lich King" and turn it into "undead are mind controlled into Lich King, but that control can be broken".

Even in StarCraft there was a brood which became feral after Cerebrate Zasz' death. No other Cerebrate could take over simply. The Overmind was in a temporary coma. I'm saying, if relinking was that simple, the story would be really shallow.

 

[Amigoltu]

It was a Priest, he used the Light... How much more do you need?

Yes, alright, that's a high elf priest. However, him using the Light that paladins do is merely speculation. Elves may well had entirely different idea for their "priests".

[...]he showed that Orcs can be corupted and lose themselves in their bloodlust.

And Thrall, along with his father, showed, that more than a few of them can resist the bloodlust. Even Grom himself overcame it at the end.

That's a very idealistic approach - making peace does not erase past experiences or make people forget about their losses or fears.

(This refers to your later quote about this being Grom & NElf "resentment", as well)
It's not "idealistic". It's what happened. Night elves and orcs made peace in order to unite and defeat Archimonde. And since Grom was gone, and Thrall ruled over Horde, there was no longer going to be conflict between orcs and Night elves. Nobody is going to start wars for "what ifs".

Also, yes, Grom killed Cenarius, but with Horde's help, a FAR bigger catastrophy was averted, and all of Azeroth was saved. And again, it was Grom, who did it. And Thrall himself had to bring Grom down for that. Elves are aware of that.

I think you don't understand what a retcon actually is.

I was referring to Thrall suddenly "breaking the deal" and going to harvest Ashenvale. That is not how Thrall operates. He would have been an idiot to repeat the same mistake Grom did.

Situation with humans was different. Those humans were direct enemies. Unlike Night Elves at this point (end of WC3). And there was only insubordination from Warsong Clan when Grom was alive still. Without Grom, that clan (supposing it's even alive still) follows Thrall 100%.

Sylvanas was alive when the Horde attacked Quel'Thalas and she fought against them.

This was not in the game.

Answering your first question - oh, I don't know, she could have just sent an envoy? You know, just like most alliances in history were made?

At least going by the game's knowledge:

• She did not know where Horde even was at that point.
• What kind of Envoy? An undead? Horde would slay it immediately. If it would not be slain before even arriving.
• Why in the world would Sylvanas think that Horde would agree to ally themselves with her?

And the second question - yes, the "beachhead" is needed, because it's a serious strategical and political advantage, even if meant only as a deterrent. Why? The Horde had a history of conflict with the Alliance, they knew the Alliance as a whole viewed them as a threat [...]

At this point in story (End of WC3), humans had no beef with Horde. They took down Legion together, Jaina was an ally of Thrall's and they lived on different continents. There was no reason for them to start any conflict.

And to answer your later statement - no, wars were not started because of "hurt feelings". There were always many layers of reasons for that. And in most times, the two countries were close to each other, and were competing for resources, territory, etc. Such is not the case here, because Humans and Orcs literally live on separate continents. And neither has any reason to cross them.

So the Blood Elves wouldn't care that Sylvanas was undead and as a Lich King's slave took part in the attack on Silvermoon, because they're sentimental towards her once being a High Elf?

Because Elves have never seen an undead, that wasn't serving Lich King. And Sylvanas obviously wasn't. She was left with a tiny force, Arthas has long left by then. OF COURSE they would have reservations. But if even Horde actually was willing to accept Sylvanas in WoW, then surely elves would be willing to give her a chance.

Remember, we're not talking years after the Third War ended

Hmm, I wonder how much time passed between RoC and TfT.

Most of the Forsaken were former citizens of Lordaeron, which the Blood Elves couldn't really care less about at this point.

That is arguable, since it's unclear how many people from other nations were raised as undead.

Yes, it was explained that the Lich King raised them and had control over them, but as I've said - the mechanics of that control, including whether or not the control is automatically re-established after a "shortage of power", were never really explained.

Which is what I kinda agreed on. I did say, that it's a question. I did not say this was a retcon. I said it's inconsistent. The inconsistency comes, because this detail was not explained later as well, and some undead seemed to have free will from the beginning (Death knights, for example), while others were mindless and remained mindless even after breaking from Lich King's will.

Banshees were meant to spread pain and terror in enemy ranks, that's why they were specifically created to be these tormented, vengeful ghosts.

I doubt that was the specific reason for Banshees. They were primarily spellcasters, who could also possess. And technically, you could say that every type of undead served the purpose of spreading "pain and terror". Talking about it, look at abominations - I imagine that's a far worse existence than being a banshee.

Lastly, as for the tone of my previous reply - I wasn't entirely serious, and I guess I sounded rude because of it. For which I apologize.

 

[deepstrasz]

Because Elves have never seen an undead, that wasn't serving Lich King.

Of course they have. Orcs were using necromatic powers since Orcs & Humans, Raise Dead and stuff.

(Death knights, for example

No Death Knight had actual free will initially. A mind? That's different. Even under Gul'dan DKs were practically slaves. After G-dude died, the remainder of them under Teron, made a pact with Orgrim but that's different.

 

[Venombite]

Wow, what I just realized. All WoW Classes added in the expansions post Vanilla (Death Knight, Monk, Demon Hunter) come straight out of Warcraft 3 rather than WoW proper.

And every race being able to be Death Knights kinda doesn't make sense from Wc3 lore. Only Wc3 Alliance races, Humans, Dwarves, Blood Elves(and High Elves) and Forsaken(basically Undead Humans) make sense as Death Knights lore wise, the other races not really. I mean Orcs, Trolls, Tauren and Night Elves don't really, cause their contact with the Scourge pre WotLK was minimal, only when Legion was invading Ashenvale and Mount Hyjal, and I doubt many of them would be raised as Undead as Legion had it's own forces and didn't really like or need the Scourge getting bigger. The same can be said about Gnomes and Goblins, plus the fact that rising them to be warriors wouldn't make any logical sense at all either. And Worgen and Draenei being Death Knights doesn't make any sense at all, let alone Allied Races.

However I admit they've handled the other two classes very well. With only Night Elves and Blood Elves being able to be Demon Hunters, and all Monks being trained by the Pandaren, kinda like with Chinese missionaries, and pretty much every monk NPC in game being Pandaren.

 

[The_Silent]

There were monks in wc3?
Thought they took them from diablo 3, which took them from dnd.
(diablo 3 monks is extremely close conceptually to what monks look like in dungeons and dragons)

 

[Venombite]

There were monks in wc3?

There is a Pandaren Brewmaster, and there are Brewmaster Monks in WoW, and Monks in WoW have Brewmaster abilities.

 

[deepstrasz]

There is a Pandaren Brewmaster, and there are Brewmaster Monks in WoW, and Monks in WoW have Brewmaster abilities.

Wow, what I just realized. All WoW Classes added in the expansions post Vanilla (Death Knight, Monk, Demon Hunter) come straight out of Warcraft 3 rather than WoW proper.

There is no monk class, rank or whatever in Warcraft III. Chen was not portrayed as a monk but as a drunken brawler. I have no idea how you come up with such backward theories.

And every race being able to be Death Knights kinda doesn't make sense from Wc3 lore.

The first Death Knights were orc spirits in human reanimated bodies. Also, the LK could call anyone like how it happened to Kel'thuzad. One might argue that it would be harder for night elves to be turned but since the new Death Knights are basically dehumanized versions of creatures and not reanimated as undead, it would not be a problem, really.

However I admit they've handled the other two classes very well. With only Night Elves and Blood Elves being able to be Demon Hunters, and all Monks being trained by the Pandaren, kinda like with Chinese missionaries, and pretty much every monk NPC in game being Pandaren.

The same thing could be said about DKs.

 

[Venombite]

There is no monk class, rank or whatever in Warcraft III. Chen was not portrayed as a monk but as a drunken brawler. I have no idea how you come up with such backward theories.

Well, I don't know. They're totally not called Brewmaster Monks, they totally don't have Breath of Fire, Drunken Haze, Storm Earth and Fire, their abilities totally aren't drinking a dozen differnet brews and throwing kegs at enemies, and with right gear they totally don't look like Chen's WoW counterpart. I have no idea how I ever came up with a conclusion that htey're based on Pandaren Brewmaster from Warcraft 3. (lol)

The first Death Knights were orc spirits in human reanimated bodies. Also, the LK could call anyone like how it happened to Kel'thuzad. One might argue that it would be harder for night elves to be turned but since the new Death Knights are basically dehumanized versions of creatures and not reanimated as undead, it would not be a problem, really.

About Kel'thuzad, he could, but he didn't. Death Knights in Warcraft 2 were completely separate, and different type. They were casters, while Death Knights in WoW are from Warcraft 3. And Death Knights start in Lordaeron where there are Wc3 Alliance races only, and pretty much no Horde race, orcs fought by Arthas aren't the same Orcs in the Horde.

 

[deepstrasz]

Well, I don't know. They're totally not called Brewmaster Monks, they totally don't have Breath of Fire, Drunken Haze, Storm Earth and Fire, their abilities totally aren't drinking a dozen differnet brews and throwing kegs at enemies, and with right gear they totally don't look like Chen's WoW counterpart. I have no idea how I ever came up with a conclusion that htey're based on Pandaren Brewmaster from Warcraft 3. (lol)

I get what you're saying but monk means more than a ripoff of abilities. It's character, philosophy which is different in WoW. In that regard, everything is based on Warcraft III: mages, warlocks, warriors, druids, shamans etc. even if they were not all named so in the RTS game.

About Kel'thuzad, he could, but he didn't.

He didn't what, answer the call? If you're talking about becoming a DK, that was not my point.

Death Knights in Warcraft 2 were completely separate, and different type. They were casters, while Death Knights in WoW are from Warcraft 3.

Sure, they were made differently but even the WcIII ones are casters though. You're saying they're trained for close combat. It's so that they would be actual knights.

And Death Knights start in Lordaeron

Actually they start in Northrend. Aside Arthas which is ingame, read this: Warcraft III - Undead -> Units -> Death Knight
So while paladins come from Lordaeron, they were not turned into Death Knights there.

and pretty much no Horde race, orcs fought by Arthas aren't the same Orcs in the Horde.

So? There could be intricacies. Maybe some are spies others could have joined the Horde after TfT. How would you know? Is there any specifics on this not being possible?
Anyone can be mesmerized by the LK's call, no? No matter where from.

 

[Venombite]

And the thing I forgot to mention. The Priestess of the Moon was completely butchered. For game play sake they made them human priests with darker skin tone and long ears. Aside from the fact that they weren't supposed to even be priests, but more of a Hunter with some Warrior and Rogue in some cases, and that they're supposed to be female only, they've completely lost they're star powers. Instead, cause they obviously wanted some Starfall in game, they've invented Balance Druid that uses PotM powers. I mean sure, I can swallow them having Solar powers, it even makes sense they're Night Elves and the Sun sleeps at night, but I can't swallow that they're mostly using Moon powers. Abilities like Starfall, Moonfire(that's even class wide), Lunar Strike, Starsurge, and not to even mention all Elune mentioning abilities, would all belong to a PotM in Warcraft 3. PotMs weren't even supposed to be healers, I mean sure it could be expanded lore and role, but still they should be healing with moonlight effects, not Holy Light. And the Druids were supposed to be the main Night Elf healers, not the Priests.

 

[Lon-ami]

I was a lore nutjob long ago, like, really crazy about it. I mean, I have like 10k+ posts in Scrolls of Lore, if that's worth anything. Started giving up on WoW and Blizzard altogether around the time of Cataclysm, and I'm glad I did. Everything is just a mess.

Anyway, I saw some class discussion and couldn't resist to join, so here's my take:

I think WoW classes missed the point completely, by going for a dull middle ground. Either you make classes generic enough (armor class + magic element combinations; also known as "what's the real difference between a warrior, a paladin, and a death knight") or you specialize by race (and in some cases, even sex).

The night elves are the most obvious examples, females should be "Sentinels" with hunter/priest elements, and males should be "Druids" with druid elements. The class comes first, the race comes second, so to speak.

Each class should then be able to play different roles depending on the build, and all of them should have both ranged and melee capabilities. Following the example above:

• Sentinel: Huntress (DPS), Priestess of the Moon (Healing/Support), Warden/Watcher (Tank).
  
• Druid: Druid of the Claw (Tank), Druid of the Talon (DPS), Druid of the Antler (Healing/Support).

This model would allow each race to keep its own racial themes intact, while removing the pointless "which race is better for this class" balance arguments. The sex split might be ignored for the sake of roleplaying if you wish.

Full list of class ideas:

• Human: Paladin/Crusader, Mage/Archmage.
  
• Dwarf: Warrior/Mountain King.
• Gnome: Tinker.
• Night Elf: Sentinel, Druid.
• Orc: Warrior/Blademaster, Shaman/Farseer.
  
• Troll: Berserker/Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter.
  
• Tauren: Warrior/Spirit Walker.
  
• Undead: Necromancer/Lich, Death Knight.

You get the idea. Most would be inspired straight from W3 heroes. Some abilities would be shared between similar classes of different factions.

Race/Sex customization is far too simplistic as well, and we could go further, with things such as:

• Same race and same sex but different body shapes and voice lines (useful for female-only classes like the Sentinel, where there is no male/female distinction).
• Multiple "races" for a single class (In the case of undead and troll classes).
• In some cases, races don't matter, only the class lore (mages can be human or high elf, so mage/Dalaran culture has priority over general human/elf culture).

Following this, we could remove gnomes from the core game, and introduce them later through a neutral tinker class, which would have both gnome and goblin customization options.

You could tie each class with a city/faction as well. So, mages from Dalaran, paladins from Stormwind, etc. Race would become irrelevant in this case, culture being the most important aspect. You would no longer be playing as a "human", you would be playing as a citizen of a specific nation, which would happen to excel at a set of skills you could classify as "class".

Race/Class stuff could be expanded in a way that racial skills have an actual racial impact. For example, gnomes and goblins are small, so maybe they could sneak through holes too narrow for other races. This brings a whole new dimension to the out of combat gameplay of each race/class.

As you see, class first, race second. I feel like that would have made each class far more unique, making each race stand out far more as well. Sometimes, less is more.

 

[Amigoltu]

I was a lore nutjob long ago, like, really crazy about it. I mean, I have like 10k+ posts in Scrolls of Lore, if that's worth anything. Started giving up on WoW and Blizzard altogether around the time of Cataclysm, and I'm glad I did. Everything is just a mess.

Anyway, I saw some class discussion and couldn't resist to join, so here's my take:

I think WoW classes missed the point completely, by going for a dull middle ground. Either you make classes generic enough (armor class + magic element combinations; also known as "what's the real difference between a warrior, a paladin, and a death knight") or you specialize by race (and in some cases, even sex).

The night elves are the most obvious examples, females should be "Sentinels" with hunter/priest elements, and males should be "Druids" with druid elements. The class comes first, the race comes second, so to speak.

Each class should then be able to play different roles depending on the build, and all of them should have both ranged and melee capabilities. Following the example above:

• Sentinel: Huntress (DPS), Priestess of the Moon (Healing/Support), Warden/Watcher (Tank).
  
• Druid: Druid of the Claw (Tank), Druid of the Talon (DPS), Druid of the Antler (Healing/Support).

This model would allow each race to keep its own racial themes intact, while removing the pointless "which race is better for this class" balance arguments. The sex split might be ignored for the sake of roleplaying if you wish.

Full list of class ideas:

• Human: Paladin/Crusader, Mage/Archmage.
  
• Dwarf: Warrior/Mountain King.
• Gnome: Tinker.
• Night Elf: Sentinel, Druid.
• Orc: Warrior/Blademaster, Shaman/Farseer.
  
• Troll: Berserker/Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter.
  
• Tauren: Warrior/Spirit Walker.
  
• Undead: Necromancer/Lich, Death Knight.

You get the idea. Most would be inspired straight from W3 heroes. Some abilities would be shared between similar classes of different factions.

Race/Sex customization is far too simplistic as well, and we could go further, with things such as:

• Same race and same sex but different body shapes and voice lines (useful for female-only classes like the Sentinel, where there is no male/female distinction).
• Multiple "races" for a single class (In the case of undead and troll classes).
• In some cases, races don't matter, only the class lore (mages can be human or high elf, so mage/Dalaran culture has priority over general human/elf culture).

Following this, we could remove gnomes from the core game, and introduce them later through a neutral tinker class, which would have both gnome and goblin customization options.

You could tie each class with a city/faction as well. So, mages from Dalaran, paladins from Stormwind, etc. Race would become irrelevant in this case, culture being the most important aspect. You would no longer be playing as a "human", you would be playing as a citizen of a specific nation, which would happen to excel at a set of skills you could classify as "class".

Race/Class stuff could be expanded in a way that racial skills have an actual racial impact. For example, gnomes and goblins are small, so maybe they could sneak through holes too narrow for other races. This brings a whole new dimension to the out of combat gameplay of each race/class.

As you see, class first, race second. I feel like that would have made each class far more unique, making each race stand out far more as well. Sometimes, less is more.

The only thing I may disagree with, is that certain classes COULD be available to multiple races. For example, humans always had common soldiers, who were not Paladins. Thus, Warrior. And Warrior seems to be applicable class to most races, maybe with the exception of Elves, Gnome/Goblins and (Maybe?) Undead. Although, different races could have different.. flair of the same classes. For example, talking about warrior:

• Human Warriors would be more knight-like. Something between tankiness and high-dps.
• Troll and Orc Warriors would be one of the extremes - the DPS one. Being "berserkers", they would be purely DPS.
• Tauren and Dwarf Warriors would be purely tanks. Another extreme.

As for other races, and why they wouldn't have that "traditional" Warrior classification:

• Night Elves would, indeed, be Sentinels or Druids. Both of which could be sort of it, but not entirely.
• High Elves/Blood Elves primarily fight with magic, and also, they already have their own Paladin (Blood Knight) Lore.
• Gnome/Goblin always were all about tech, as they have obvious physical disadvantages compared to other races. Thus, their classes would have to reflect that, and they wouldn't be Warrior.
• Undead as they would kinda turn to Death Knights? Though then again, Death Knights seem to be specifically fallen-paladins. Fighting melee but also using magic. And not all soldiers are using magic, obviously.

As for the rest, I fully agree.

P.S. Sex/race/class differences would indeed diminish that role-play experience, though I still think it would be cool to see all-female NElf Sentinels and all-male Nelf druids. It would also make races and their distinctions more pronounced and would actually be much better in terms of Lore-telling.

Also, what about reputation? Surely, say, paladins and warlocks would have a different public view on them? Especially considering the past wars with Burning Legion, there should be somewhat stigma about Warlocks.

 

[Lon-ami]

The only thing I may disagree with, is that certain classes COULD be available to multiple races. For example, humans always had common soldiers, who were not Paladins. Thus, Warrior. And Warrior seems to be applicable class to most races, maybe with the exception of Elves, Gnome/Goblins and (Maybe?) Undead. Although, different races could have different.. flair of the same classes. For example, talking about warrior:

• Human Warriors would be more knight-like. Something between tankiness and high-dps.
• Troll and Orc Warriors would be one of the extremes - the DPS one. Being "berserkers", they would be purely DPS.
• Tauren and Dwarf Warriors would be purely tanks. Another extreme.

As for other races, and why they wouldn't have that "traditional" Warrior classification:

• Night Elves would, indeed, be Sentinels or Druids. Both of which could be sort of it, but not entirely.
• High Elves/Blood Elves primarily fight with magic, and also, they already have their own Paladin (Blood Knight) Lore.
• Gnome/Goblin always were all about tech, as they have obvious physical disadvantages compared to other races. Thus, their classes would have to reflect that, and they wouldn't be Warrior.
• Undead as they would kinda turn to Death Knights? Though then again, Death Knights seem to be specifically fallen-paladins. Fighting melee but also using magic. And not all soldiers are using magic, obviously.

As for the rest, I fully agree.

P.S. Sex/race/class differences would indeed diminish that role-play experience, though I still think it would be cool to see all-female NElf Sentinels and all-male Nelf druids. It would also make races and their distinctions more pronounced and would actually be much better in terms of Lore-telling.

Also, what about reputation? Surely, say, paladins and warlocks would have a different public view on them? Especially considering the past wars with Burning Legion, there should be somewhat stigma about Warlocks.

My point is that the concept of a "warrior" class no longer exists. You now have members of a faction, which has its own set of fighting skills. Some would even have their own unique weapons too.

There is no "dwarf warrior" or "dwarf hunter", there's a Bronzebeard citizen, who uses Bronzebeard weapons and fighting techniques, who can also specialize in various Bronzebeard "subclasses" (which would cover multiple roles at once, like the original DPS, Tank, and Healer roles). The class is Bronzebeard, no matter the race or sex. In this case, it would apply to both male and female dwarves, but it could also apply to male and female humans who happen to live in dwarven territory, or just under dwarven influence.

If we were following a real world setting, your class would be your nationality, so to speak. Each nation would use different weapons (melee, ranged, and magic), different combat techniques, and different spells. I's easier to differentiate soldiers by their nationality than by the regiment they're in. For example, you can tell away a Spanish soldier from a Japanese soldier far easier than you tell away a Spanish grenadier from a Spanish pikeman. That's the idea.

You want another viewpoint, you could follow a setting where "adventurers" join an organization, which trains them in specific arts. If you join the Church, you will specialize in light magic and its derivative classes (paladin, priest, etc), while if you join some nature lovers you would become a druid and study different druid forms. Of course, these organizations are part of major cultures and you can't have anyone joining, because it wouldn't make any sense, and ruin the whole point in the first place.

Anyway, the alternative, which I didn't delve into, is to split what you know as classes in two, dividing them by armor weight first, and magical element second.

In this case, warrior, paladin, and death knight would be merged into "heavy knight guy". Then you would be able to specialize in various schools of magic, like "light" or "death". I think this is the ideal approach, but I don't think it would work too well for a world like Warcraft's, where there are hundreds of race, and most of them are walking cultural stereotypes.

 

[Power107]

I think WoW butchered wc3 in terms of lore. The chronicle retcons ruined everything for me. WoW lore is no longer believable. My mind rejects the message that Azeroth is a titan and so on.
Some, on Wowhead and MMO champion, say that WoW lore was inferior compared to wc3 due to WoW's MMORPG genre. I disagree.
Sc2 is not an MMO...just like modern WoW it also contains a lot of major logical errors and just like modern WoW it lacks plot twists thus WoW lore is mediocre because of poor plot crafting, not because of the MMORPG genre.

 

[Darkcranio]

I think WoW butchered wc3 in terms of lore. The chronicle retcons ruined everything for me. WoW lore is no longer believable. My mind rejects the message that Azeroth is a titan and so on.
Some, on Wowhead and MMO champion, say that WoW lore was inferior compared to wc3 due to WoW's MMORPG genre. I disagree.
Sc2 is not an MMO...just like modern WoW it also contains a lot of major logical errors and just like modern WoW it lacks plot twists thus WoW lore is mediocre because of poor plot crafting, not because of the MMORPG genre.

Can you expand on what Chronicles retconned? Like all of them? Would be good to see everything in this thread.

 

[Power107]

Can you expand on what Chronicles retconned?

I read the Chronicle ages ago and forgot most of it. Some major Chronicle retcons I still remember:

• Azeroth is now a titan. She is the strongest Titan, even stronger than Sargeras. Right?
  
• Argus, Outland, and other planets have titan world souls. Titans were once a race of mighty giants, inhabiting some worlds, but now they are humanoid planets.
  
• For some reason, Sargeras got corrupted by the Old Gods while in the original lore it's the Dreadlords' corruption that corrupted Sargeras.

For now, that's all I remember. I am sure there were much more.

 

[stein123]

I read the Chronicle ages ago and forgot most of it. Some major Chronicle retcons I still remember:

• Azeroth is now a titan. She is the strongest Titan, even stronger than Sargeras. Right?
  
• Argus, Outland, and other planets have titan world souls. Titans were once a race of mighty giants, inhabiting some worlds, but now they are humanoid planets.
  
• For some reason, Sargeras got corrupted by the Old Gods while in the original lore it's the Dreadlords' corruption that corrupted Sargeras.

For now, that's all I remember. I am sure there were much more.

-Outland (Draenor) doesn't have a world soul
-Sargeras was driven mad by the idea of the endless corruption on the cosmos, and how endless would be his crusade to fix it after battling so many demons, so he became mad and decided to purge everything and remade it again, now "perfect", with the help of the same demons he battled; in the new he meets the dreadlords and became insane after witnessing the corruption of a unborn titan by the old gods, and everything else is the same.

 

[Power107]

Outland (Draenor) doesn't have a world soul

How do you know that? I know the world is broken but is the world soul dead too? There is no word from Blizzard on that so I guess the conclusion is we don't know what happened to the world soul of Outland.

Sargeras was driven mad by the idea of the endless corruption on the cosmos, and how endless would be his crusade to fix it after battling so many demons, so he became mad and decided to purge everything and remade it again, now "perfect", with the help of the same demons he battled, in the new he meets the dreadlords and became insane after witnessing the corruption of a unborn titan by the old gods, and everything else is the same.

In the original lore, he fought the chaotic evil race called the Eredar before becoming corrupt. But the Chronicle later retconned it (or inherited a retcon from TBC), that the Eredar(Draenei) were corrupted by Sargeras and they weren't chaotic evil.

 

[stein123]

How do you know that? I know the world is broken but is the world soul dead too? There is no word from Blizzard on that so I guess the conclusion is we don't know what happened to the world soul of Outland.

In the original lore, he fought the chaotic evil race called the Eredar before becoming corrupt. But the Chronicle later retconned it (or inherited a retcon from TBC), that the Eredar(Draenei) were corrupted by Sargeras and they weren't chaotic evil.

It's already confirmed that it doens't have a Soul, Aggramar the Titan went to that world and only found that only existed an aggresive plant life form that threatened to consume all the planet, so he create the grond, who in turn spawned the gronn, then the ogron, then the ogres, and then the orcs

 

[Power107]

Aggramar the Titan went to that world and only found that only existed an aggresive plant life form that threatened to consume all the planet, so he create the grond, who in turn spawned the gronn, then the ogron, then the ogres, and then the orcs

This 'aggressive plant life' did not consume the whole planet, maybe the world soul survived.
EDIT: It's in Volume 2, that Draenor has no world soul.
It's funny how stupid WoW lore is. Retcons after retcons. World of Retconcraft: Retconlands