Units Seldom Seen in Pro-Games?

[AquaFire]

Hello Everyone,

I am an avid watcher of the Youtube channel, CrotaGaming, who does shoutcasts of thousands of pro games. I have played through the campaign of both RoC and TFT, so I would say that I have a general understanding of how every unit works. However, I do not have experience playing against other players so I have no bearing on what the meta is and how each of the armies work as a whole.

As I watched each pro-game, I have noticed that there were quite a handful of units that I have never seen played, or played about 3 out of 100 games. As such, I have made a list of each unit that almost never show up in these CrotaGaming casts. I apologize if I am being ignorant (I did watch more than 300 of these shoutcasts) or if I am just flat-out wrong in some of my assessments of these units.

Glaive Throwers: Glaive Throwers are out-classed by other Siege units (Lowest Health/Lowest Damage/Different Splashing). I see why these units are never seen. Esp since Bear Comps seem to do the same job with less risk. Regardless, I have never seen these units in pro-games.

Talon Druid: I understand why these units aren't seen too often, when all of the races have a way to dispel Cyclone and Faerie Fire. Bears + Dryads just seem better in comparison. I have seen a maximum of two games where Talon Druids were used, and it was against Undead or other Night Elf armies.

Hippogryph-Riders: I am also assuming these units are weak as their cost is not worth the amount of impact brought (also because Hippogryphs are meant for Anti-Air and Mounting would cut just their damage to 33% of its original). Although the potential is there for some Zeppelin-level Micro plays, Chims just seem to be simpler to use with little additional costs.

Priestess of the Moon: I do understand why I never see Priestess of the Moon. Even with the Searing Arrows, her dps pails in comparison to the Demon Hunter (who also has Mana Burn). Scout is a powerful scouting tool but that comes at the cost of not having an offensive spell. Trueshot Aura can be a powerful tool, but that is when the player runs archers/huntresses/dryads which I believe do not transition as well into the late game (as bears do, which aren't ranged). The Priestess can use Shadowmeld, but so can the Warden, which I believe is an overall better hero.

Troll Headhunters/Berserkers: I have never seen High-Level Orc players run these units, despite having higher statistics than Archers and being a strong support for the tanky Grunts. Add in the Berserk and their DPS would get a 50% boost while Troll Regeneration would provide a substantial boost to their survivability. I am surprised that not even one Orc player uses Troll Headhunters since they are cheap and provide decent amounts of damage (more than the archer when using Berserk).

Tauren: In my opinion, the strongest trainable Ground Unit in the entire game, and yet, I have never seen them. I have seen more Mountain Giants (which are much more expensive) than I have Tauren. Even in long games where tiers are maxed out, I cannot say that i have seen a single Tauren other than the Chieftain and Spirit Walkers. I have thought a squad Taurens with Pulverize could decimate opposing armies. Even though the Tauren is the most expensive Orc unit, the presence of Ancestral Spirit (with Spirit Walkers) would mitigate the consequences of losing a Tauren. The composition in itself would prove to be one of the most unkillable duos in the game (Spirit Link distributed amongst High-HP units).

Far Seer: I can see the Far Seer being a powerful harass/creeper with Feral Spirit. When upgraded, Shadow Wolves can prove to be a powerful scouting/harassing tool. However, I see the weakness of his other two spells. I do not see the appeal of getting Far Sight other than to reveal invisible units [just get dust of appearance]. Chain Lightning can provide decent damage but it has a large mana cost given its impact in fights (not much compared to other AoE abilities).

Banshees: I cannot recall the last time I have seen Banshees, despite me thinking that the Banshee can provide a lot of protection from burst damage with Anti-Magic-Shell. Its zero cooldown can allow a single Banshee to cast 5 shells (although I am unsure if Disenchant or Dispels will get rid of it). Curse can also be a powerful tool to cripple a hero that are basic-attack-reliant (like blademasters) and its auto-cast feature can be a nuisance to players dealing with it. I do not see the appeal of running Possession as the opportunities to use it are slim to none. Using it on Creeps would waste hero experience which can be more valuable than a single Level <5 unit. Still, I am surprised I have never seen Banshees against mass sorcerers/priests.

Crypt Lord: I have never seen anyone run Crypt Lord in your casts. In a sense of a MOBA, I had always thought Impale was one of coolest abilities in the game. However, I believe the greatest appeal of the Crypt Lord is spawning permanent summons with Carrion Beetles (despite needing a corpse to do so). I am surprised that I have never seen a Crypt Lord as a 2nd Hero where there will be no shortage of corpses. At max level, Carrion Beetles can add the equivalent of 5 footmen at an instant and with a low mana cost. Although Burst-Damage of having a Lich + DK is sacrificed, I still believe the mere pressure of having 5 extra Carrion Beetles can turn fights around.

Alchemist: The Alchemist has been one of the most interesting heroes I have ever seen. He seems to have the highest attack damage (avg of 41.5) at Lv1, beating out the Blademaster's. And his kit seems to be filled with powerful abilities, allowing for a versatile style of playing. Healing Spray can allow constant pressuring and harassment with little cost. Chemical Rage can increase the Alchemist's already high dps and allow him to act as a one-man army. Acid Bomb can weaken large groups of frontliners (like bears) and can deal decent damage (equivalent to Shockwave). And on top of it, he is a strength hero with powerful scaling to his health. Due to the versatile nature of the Alchemist's kit, I am surprised I have not seen him played at all. He seems to have more dimensions than all of the other heroes.

Well, this is the list of units that I feel are seldom seen in high-level WC3 gameplay. For some of these units, I fail to comprehend why people would not run these units for certain strategies. Perhaps there are many things that I have either overlooked, or flat-out don't understand. Information on this topic would be good to know and give me a larger perspective on how pro-players interpret the game.

 

[Adarsh]

Glaive Throwers: recently came back into meta as a way of breaking early human expansion. Here's a great old game (moon vs sky) where they created a lot of pressure against human's 2nd gold mine:

I also saw a pro chinese NE player build 8 of them before teching, proceed to tear down the expansion and win easily

Druids of the Talon: massing them is the only viable non-cheese strategy for night elves against orcs. Blademaster needs to be cycloned all the time, otherwise his crits can will get out of control at lvl 5

Hippogryph Riders: really rare, because they don't deal more damage than archers, however, there is a certain very cheesy strategies against orc... you can see both hippogryph riders (actually, the first game where this strategy was used) and druids of the talon here:

Priestess of the Moon: has her place in 3v3 and 4v4 games, where the aura is more useful. Sometimes used with mass huntresses in 1v1

Troll Berserkers: late game vs undead with destroyers

Far Seer: old school hero, grubby speaks about old far seer strategies here:

Banshees: Curse is sometimes used against blademaster and anti-magic shell against mountain king 1st, that's about it

Crypt Lord: sometimes used as 3rd hero because he is tanky and has a damage spell which makes coil+nova even more dangerous. Here's a crazy game where TeD went CL first against Sky:

Alchemist: rare, healing spray is too slow and low armor makes him squishy despite his high hp. Night elves can play him first, but it's inferior to demon hunter... However, acid bomb is one of the ways to counter gryphon riders as orc, here's Grubby's game:

 

[AquaFire]

Glaive Throwers: recently came back into meta as a way of breaking early human expansion. Here's a great old game (moon vs sky) where they created a lot of pressure against human's 2nd gold mine:

I also saw a pro chinese NE player build 8 of them before teching, proceed to tear down the expansion and win easily

Druids of the Talon: massing them is the only viable non-cheese strategy for night elves against orcs. Blademaster needs to be cycloned all the time, otherwise his crits can will get out of control at lvl 5

Hippogryph Riders: really rare, because they don't deal more damage than archers, however, there is a certain very cheesy strategies against orc... you can see both hippogryph riders (actually, the first game where this strategy was used) and druids of the talon here:

Priestess of the Moon: has her place in 3v3 and 4v4 games, where the aura is more useful. Sometimes used with mass huntresses in 1v1

Troll Berserkers: late game vs undead with destroyers

Far Seer: old school hero, grubby speaks about old far seer strategies here:

Banshees: Curse is sometimes used against blademaster and anti-magic shell against mountain king 1st, that's about it

Crypt Lord: sometimes used as 3rd hero because he is tanky and has a damage spell which makes coil+nova even more dangerous. Here's a crazy game where TeD went CL first against Sky:

Alchemist: rare, healing spray is too slow and low armor makes him squishy despite his high hp. Night elves can play him first, but it's inferior to demon hunter... However, acid bomb is one of the ways to counter gryphon riders as orc, here's Grubby's game:

Wow. Thank you for giving me a detailed response. I will need to get to looking at those videos at some point. I also just realized that Glaive Throwers can be built at Tier 1, making it the fastest available siege unit in the game. I was not aware of this until you told me.

As for the point on Troll Berserkers, wouldn't Raiders with Ensnare prove more effective or funnier yet, Batriders (assuming Crypt Fiends aren't a thing)? I would assume both the two would provide to be the perfect counter to Mass Destroyers (or Gryphons/Chims etc). Regardless, if players want consistent anti-air damage, I am guessing Berserkers are the only choice aside from Wind Riders (which are more expensive). However, In all of the games I have seen, Raiders+ Mass Wyverns have been the answers to destroyers.

Thank you for bringing light to the Alchemist's armor. I had forgotten that AGI heroes like the Demon Hunter can get somewhere to about 35% effective hit points from armor. As a result, I guess that brings down his ability to pull a Rambo. I also wish that I had more opportunities to play Alchemist. I never realized Healing Spray was be so ineffective during fights in comparison to Healing Wave or other forms of instant healing. Also given the fact that it's a channel. I had a vision that it was good for hit-and-run tactics.

Overall, I would like to thank you for linking me to these videos. I have always admired players who use niche strategies as adaptations of conventional ones. When watching WC3 I always get excited when I see different units in play. I am also wondering if you had comments about Tauren. Am I just watching the wrong games that I am not seeing them? Or are they actually on niche status?

 

[Dick Assman]

Hi there!

Very interesting ideas. I can't compete with Adarsh in replays, but let me share some of my thoughts:

Glaive Throwers: This is the only Tier 1 siege unit in the game, hence it's nerfed. "Catapult-like" units are rare in competitive gameplay because they are slow, easy to kill, and require to have a "meatshield" in front of them in battle. (or perhaps zeppelin-micro)

Druids of the Talon: Actually the "DH, Beastmaster, Tinker, mass talons" strategy is used quite a lot in Elf vs Orc. Orcs suffer the most from magic, and cyclone is quite a cheap spell to shut down the BM and the TC, especially if talons are in big numbers. All the other races crush talons with spellbreakers, destroyers and fairy dragons, which are also immune to magic.

Hippogryph-Riders: It seems quite straightforward for a night elf player, to upgrade their Tier 1 archers to hipporiders. They are fast and effective at harassing bases, but unfortunately very weak in straight-up battles. Similarly to gargs, they are countered by fiends, raiders, Panda, and towers. A hipporider-based harassing strategy hence requires a large map, but on large maps elves already making because of their speed vs archers, or just veto big maps altogether. (* in big team games it is a valid strategy, because there are many games to harass)

PotM: Only useful with archers/hunts, which are both outdated at Tier 2. Dryads don't have too much dps, and trueshot aura does not improve the poison effect. To top that, she is too easy to kill, and overshadowed by the DH. DH is one of the best tanks in the game, together with the staff it's virtually unkillable. Plus he has the potential to prevent enemy heroes casting their spells. (* agree with Adarsh, she is very useful in team games, but she must carry an antimagic potion for starfall, which is dispellable)

Troll Headhunters/Berserkers: Weak and slow. However they are seldom used vs destroyers or talons, when a game goes long, and the orc doesn't want to build too many raiders. Even then they are the first unit to nuked down by the enemy, so they need to sit far in the back.

Tauren is a victim of Tier 3, to which orc players rarely go. Plus they are very easily countered by destros, kodos, cyclone, and slow. (The higher food a unit is, the less mana/food is needed to cast a debuff.) * Tauren are used in FFA, and big team games.

Far Seer: DH, destros, bm and priests/breakers counter it. Can be effective harassing a human base, but a BM can do that too, and that one also useful in battles.

Banshees: Anti-magic shell is dispellable, invul pot on heroes are much more reliable, and somewhat cheaper. * In big team games it might work out, as a cheap way to protect allied heroes.

Crypt Lord: He has very little mana, carrion beetles are dispelled, and impale doesn't do much damage / stun. Impale is the poor man's version of stomp (except stomp requires more precise hero positioning). In Ud vs Ud, he might be picked as a 3rd hero though (not sure if it's true by today's standard).

Alchemist: Lvl1 alchemist has 41.5 damage/hit, and has an attack cooldown of 2.08 second/attack, hence it's damage output is 41.5 : 2.08 = 19.95 damage/second (dps). Lvl1 BM has 37 damage/hit, and cooldown of 1.19 second/attack, hence it has 37 : 1.19 = 31.1 dps, therefore the Alchemist needs his chemical rage ability to catch up with the BM. Sorry for being such a nerd, just wanted to point out that "damage/hit" is not equal to "damage output". Also, I might be completely wrong about the numbers, my sources were: Warcraft III - Neutral -> Neutral Heroes -> Goblin Alchemist, Warcraft III - Orcs -> Units -> Blademaster, and Warcraft III - Basics -> Hero Basics, where you find how to calculate these values at the bottom of the page.

On a second note, this, and many other things in Warcraft 3 are very unintuitive, and isn't covered at all in campaign levels. This should be improved for future games. Blizzard tried compensating this by creating an online manual for the game: Mojo StormStout's Warcraft III Strategy Guide (Mojo StormStout's Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Strategy Guide). Unfortunatelly though, reading this guide isn't required to play the game online, hence you find many people having no clue which unit to build vs some other units. Seriously, before you create a new account, you should be given a test based on that manual, like "which attack type counters medium armor", or "what unit has magic-immunity", and so on. Bottomline: if you are a new player, RTFM (for your own sake)!

On a third note, Alchemist and Pit Lord are counter-intuitive heroes by definition. Both of them are strenght heroes, have a damage-dealing ability (which agility heroes should have), and have a chanelling spell abilty (which inteligence heroes should have).

Yours truly,
Mr. Assman

 

[AquaFire]

Hi there!

Very interesting ideas. I can't compete with Adarsh in replays, but let me share some of my thoughts:

Glaive Throwers: This is the only Tier 1 siege unit in the game, hence it's nerfed. "Catapult-like" units are rare in competitive gameplay because they are slow, easy to kill, and require to have a "meatshield" in front of them in battle. (or perhaps zeppelin-micro)

Druids of the Talon: Actually the "DH, Beastmaster, Tinker, mass talons" strategy is used quite a lot in Elf vs Orc. Orcs suffer the most from magic, and cyclone is quite a cheap spell to shut down the BM and the TC, especially if talons are in big numbers. All the other races crush talons with spellbreakers, destroyers and fairy dragons, which are also immune to magic.

Hippogryph-Riders: It seems quite straightforward for a night elf player, to upgrade their Tier 1 archers to hipporiders. They are fast and effective at harassing bases, but unfortunately very weak in straight-up battles. Similarly to gargs, they are countered by fiends, raiders, Panda, and towers. A hipporider-based harassing strategy hence requires a large map, but on large maps elves already making because of their speed vs archers, or just veto big maps altogether. (* in big team games it is a valid strategy, because there are many games to harass)

PotM: Only useful with archers/hunts, which are both outdated at Tier 2. Dryads don't have too much dps, and trueshot aura does not improve the poison effect. To top that, she is too easy to kill, and overshadowed by the DH. DH is one of the best tanks in the game, together with the staff it's virtually unkillable. Plus he has the potential to prevent enemy heroes casting their spells. (* agree with Adarsh, she is very useful in team games, but she must carry an antimagic potion for starfall, which is dispellable)

Troll Headhunters/Berserkers: Weak and slow. However they are seldom used vs destroyers or talons, when a game goes long, and the orc doesn't want to build too many raiders. Even then they are the first unit to nuked down by the enemy, so they need to sit far in the back.

Tauren is a victim of Tier 3, to which orc players rarely go. Plus they are very easily countered by destros, kodos, cyclone, and slow. (The higher food a unit is, the less mana/food is needed to cast a debuff.) * Tauren are used in FFA, and big team games.

Far Seer: DH, destros, bm and priests/breakers counter it. Can be effective harassing a human base, but a BM can do that too, and that one also useful in battles.

Banshees: Anti-magic shell is dispellable, invul pot on heroes are much more reliable, and somewhat cheaper. * In big team games it might work out, as a cheap way to protect allied heroes.

Crypt Lord: He has very little mana, carrion beetles are dispelled, and impale doesn't do much damage / stun. Impale is the poor man's version of stomp (except stomp requires more precise hero positioning). In Ud vs Ud, he might be picked as a 3rd hero though (not sure if it's true by today's standard).

Alchemist: Lvl1 alchemist has 41.5 damage/hit, and has an attack cooldown of 2.08 second/attack, hence it's damage output is 41.5 : 2.08 = 19.95 damage/second (dps). Lvl1 BM has 37 damage/hit, and cooldown of 1.19 second/attack, hence it has 37 : 1.19 = 31.1 dps, therefore the Alchemist needs his chemical rage ability to catch up with the BM. Sorry for being such a nerd, just wanted to point out that "damage/hit" is not equal to "damage output". Also, I might be completely wrong about the numbers, my sources were: Warcraft III - Neutral -> Neutral Heroes -> Goblin Alchemist, Warcraft III - Orcs -> Units -> Blademaster, and Warcraft III - Basics -> Hero Basics, where you find how to calculate these values at the bottom of the page.

On a second note, this, and many other things in Warcraft 3 are very unintuitive, and isn't covered at all in campaign levels. This should be improved for future games. Blizzard tried compensating this by creating an online manual for the game: Mojo StormStout's Warcraft III Strategy Guide (Mojo StormStout's Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Strategy Guide). Unfortunatelly though, reading this guide isn't required to play the game online, hence you find many people having no clue which unit to build vs some other units. Seriously, before you create a new account, you should be given a test based on that manual, like "which attack type counters medium armor", or "what unit has magic-immunity", and so on. Bottomline: if you are a new player, RTFM (for your own sake)!

On a third note, Alchemist and Pit Lord are counter-intuitive heroes by definition. Both of them are strenght heroes, have a damage-dealing ability (which agility heroes should have), and have a chanelling spell abilty (which inteligence heroes should have).

Yours truly,
Mr. Assman

Wow. This is really insightful. I am very happy to be hearing multiple views on this matter. At the moment, I don't ever think I will be playing ranked games on WC3 (I am spoiled by MOBAs and RPGs and I am too busy making custom maps). The main reason for creating this thread is because I have been fascinated from seeing professional WC3 players face off against one another. WC3 is by far, my favourite competitive game to watch (even more so than Brood War or League of Legends). Although it is arguable that the same strategies are being used (I can't even count the amount of times I have seen Th000 Creeping AM to Level 3 and starting Tower Rushes on the enemy base [Th000 and Remind being my favourite pro-WC players]), there are still a lot of adaptations in WC3 games outside of what I have seen from watching other RTS games. The amount of unit variation and the unique hero-building aspect creates a viewing experience that is both fresh and multi-dimensional. I am also baffled by the additional micro-maneuvers that are put in WC3 outside of other RTS games. Examples being when heroes perform quick preservation staff hand-offs to escape with 4 hp or when units dodge CC abilities with Zeppelins or Invul Potions.

Also, thank you for clearing up the DPS of the Alchemist. I also was also not aware that Anti-Magic Shell or Carrion Beetles were dispellable. Also, regarding game modes such as 4v4 or FFA seem to be behind the bar as all the pro games I have seen seem to be either 1v1 or 2v2. I am guessing units that are suitable for larger-scale game modes are not as strong in 1v1 settings. I would have to do more research on this matter as I do not know the map-pool for most of these pro games. (I am assuming the maps are all here?: Warcraft III - Maps - Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Ladder Map Pictures)

Part of this thread has been a lament for not having seen certain units. The Crypt Lord is an example of one of the units that I wanted to see played in higher-level play (It is satisfying to watch bodies just get knocked up in the air). I am also sad that I do not get to see that many Witch Doctors, Necros, Dragonhawks, Dreadlords, KotG's, etc. Anyway, I love discussions like these and WC3 will remain to be one of my all-time favourite games (second place to Brood War).

 

[Kyrbi0]

This is an interesting topic; as a race-designer, I'm fascinated by what makes a unit popular or not, and how that can be modified.

On a third note, Alchemist and Pit Lord are counter-intuitive heroes by definition. Both of them are strenght heroes, have a damage-dealing ability (which agility heroes should have), and have a chanelling spell abilty (which inteligence heroes should have).

Um, actually, nearly every hero has a straight Direct Damage-dealing ability. There are very few out of the 24 (e.g. Shadow Hunter, Dark Ranger, Keeper of the Grove...) that do not. Even less if we count DoT abilities.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

I only play around 5 melee games a month on average, and this is a really neat thread even for melee newbies such as myself. We could use more melee and ladder activity on Hive, so I shared it in some places

Nice work, including the posters of the detailed replies, too.

 

[GhostThruster]

yep saw the post on facebook, where it piqued my interest.

anti-magic shell is dispellable. PotM is quite strong in 2v2 as well, especially with double NE or NE & UD (hunts + fiends + trueshot = gg).

I am guessing units that are suitable for larger-scale game modes are not as strong in 1v1 settings. I would have to do more research on this matter as I do not know the map-pool for most of these pro games. (I am assuming the maps are all here?: Warcraft III - Maps - Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Ladder Map Pictures)

kinda sorta. aura heroes (e.g. PotM, KotG or TC) are much more suited to large-scale games, so they are an example of units weak in 1v1, but strong otherwise. however, t3 units, and heavy air in particular, are much more accessible (easier to expand, able to tech easily while teammates cover you, generally lower skill levels) so you will see gryphons, tauren, chims and frost wyrms more often than in 1v1. in this case, these units are definitely not 'weaker' in 1v1 so much as less easy to reach.
pro game map pools vary from tournament to tournament. it depends mostly on the organiser. i think the w3arena ladder map pool would be more indicative of tournament maps, however.


i encourage you to also check out back2warcraft, who are more informative when it comes to casting (and, as SCN will affirm, are a cool affiliate of this site). better yet, consider giving a sub to the 'big 4' wc3 channels right now: back2warcraft, crota, wtii and itrainhum

 

[AquaFire]

yep saw the post on facebook, where it piqued my interest.

anti-magic shell is dispellable. PotM is quite strong in 2v2 as well, especially with double NE or NE & UD (hunts + fiends + trueshot = gg).


kinda sorta. aura heroes (e.g. PotM, KotG or TC) are much more suited to large-scale games, so they are an example of units weak in 1v1, but strong otherwise. however, t3 units, and heavy air in particular, are much more accessible (easier to expand, able to tech easily while teammates cover you, generally lower skill levels) so you will see gryphons, tauren, chims and frost wyrms more often than in 1v1. in this case, these units are definitely not 'weaker' in 1v1 so much as less easy to reach.
pro game map pools vary from tournament to tournament. it depends mostly on the organiser. i think the w3arena ladder map pool would be more indicative of tournament maps, however.


i encourage you to also check out back2warcraft, who are more informative when it comes to casting (and, as SCN will affirm, are a cool affiliate of this site). better yet, consider giving a sub to the 'big 4' wc3 channels right now: back2warcraft, crota, wtii and itrainhum

Yep. I watch Crota and Wtii for hours on out (I might have too much free time). I wrote this thread after watching about 300 Crota videos. As stated above, all the units I have listed were units I have seldom seen in the pro games from Crota's shoutcasts.

Wtii is a well-known player and he sometimes runs unconventional strategies; however, he is a stranger case because he is more well-known for 4v4 and FFA (I am also making an RPG map that I want him to check out). As a result, I am not sure how to judge him next to legends like Moon, Th000, Lyn, Remind, and the like. All the pro-games I have seen are either 1v1 or 2v2. I prefer not to look too much into other game modes as I feel the value of individual players goes down. From what I have read from the above posts, the meta fluctuates from game mode to game mode, and given that these pros are paid for winning, I doubt they are playing FFA/4v4s as they are focusing on 1v1's and on occasion, 2v2's.

As far as the comment about Auras, I feel auras are super powerful no matter the game mode (TC [Level 2 EnduranceAura] is a hero I have seen in at least 50% of the Orc games I watch, and DK [Level 2 UnholyAura] is a hero I see in 95% of the Undead games I see). Command Aura is another aura that can provide a lot of utility to a lone Orc player (Although I think Devour makes the stronger argument for running Kodos). I think Trueshot/Thorns/Vampiric Aura are exceptions because no NE player will build 100% ranged units nor will his/her opponent. They are just too one-dimensional to be useful in a 1v1 format and have obvious counters.

As for what I have seen from Tier 3 teching, I have seen multiple pro-games reach Tier 3. Some of these players hit Tier 3 at alarming speeds sometimes. The units I have put on the list did not even appear even in longer games. Even in 1v1's, I have seen mass air strategies with Gryphons, Chimeras, Destroyers, Frost Wyrms, and the like. The units listed above have been units I have not seen even with post-45-minute games. I have theorized that the best units to take in a situation falls into this criteria from most important to the least.

effectiveness at the job (you want the unit with the highest damage trade)

Battles are won because one side is better at trading damage than the other. Without damage, a player cannot win (unless he/she is a crooked D'dossing hacker). Damage trading is an army's ability to deal damage or negate it via crowd-control/armor/healing. The player is ultimately trying to reduce the opponent's damage trade to 0 without losing his/her own; therefore, having the highest damage trade in a fight is most important.​

available counters in the opponent's current composition (if counters exist to your #1 choice, have a #2)

The next part of the formula now takes into account how easily the unit can lose out on damage trade (because either the unit is not durable or because the unit cannot deal damage [due to crowd control, armor type, or ground vs air matchups]). The more one player can get an edge over the other, the better.​

production and cost (if your #2 can do more [after assessing counters] than your #1 with almost the same cost, get this unit)

If one gets a Tauren (280G/80L/5F [360Resources]) vs 2 Grunts (400G/6F [400Resources]), it would be more worth it to go with the 2 Grunts, as a Tauren can get singled out by a single Talon Druid; therefore, causing the player to lose out on damage.
​

Of course, there are many dimensions in a fight such as positioning, focusing, and well placed/timed abilities, but in the end, whatever army has the composition that can win out on damage trades will win the game, and there will-be/are units that have higher consistent damage trading than others. Back to the point on Tier 3 teching, Gryphon Riders are arguably one of the best units in the game. They deal both large amounts of ground/air damage, are durable, and the fact that they are air units limit crowd control options. The real concrete counters I can think of are Raiders/Crypt Fiends/Hippos. It is things like these that make these units meta; these units win damage trades on a consistent basis. I figure that units like Tauren are not as powerful (despite being Tier 3) as there are lots of accessible and cheaper counters such as slow, cripple, cyclones, etc that can tip the scale towards the opponent. Overall, the keyword for this meta seems to be "Consistency."

Speaking of late game, I should mention (for future references) that I tend to ignore Level 6 abilities on Heroes. A distinct feature I see in pro-games (from casual ones) is that units are well-taken-care of, preventing experience from leaking. Most of the heroes I see in pro games get to around Level 3-4 right before the deciding battles. With just a few exceptions, I feel Ultimate abilities are not that significant in deciding a hero's impact on a pro 1v1, 2v2 game.

Anyway, thank you for giving your input. It gave me a lot of food for thought, and I will have to check out the other two Youtubers you mentioned. I have been also following the TWI tournament (thank you Crota), and I am curious what the map pool was.

 

[doom_sheep]

I've seen all of those minus tauren and CL. riders are used in elf mirror to shoot wisps. headhunters get made against destroyers.

if you're playing on bnet, don't. w3arena seems to be where melee is played properly.

 

[Kyrbi0]

headhunters get made against destroyers.

What? Seriously.

 

[doom_sheep]

it doesn't exactly work but neither does any other unit.

when blizzard made destroyers they first made it balanced but just before the patch was shipped an intern accidentally doubled their hit points and armor and they've since been too embarrassed to fix it. they insist that literally every undead army ever being a combination of fiends and destroyers is intentional but I doubt anyone's ever bought that.

 

[Kyrbi0]

it doesn't exactly work but neither does any other unit.

I looked it up; I suppose Piercing vs. Light is pretty good, and conversely Magic vs. Normal isn't that good, so Headhunters seem like a decent matchup. Just seems crazy; dinky blue dudes with primitive spears besting massive aerial monstrosities of living stone & nether magic-sucking powers.

when blizzard made destroyers they first made it balanced but just before the patch was shipped an intern accidentally doubled their hit points and armor and they've since been too embarrassed to fix it. they insist that literally every undead army ever being a combination of fiends and destroyers is intentional but I doubt anyone's ever bought that.

Whaaaaaat? So you're saying they went from a 550HP/5Armor Obsidian Statue to a 450HP/1.5Armor Destroyer? Seems... Ok, maybe that isn't crazy. But doubled? Gotta source on that tidbit?

 

[doom_sheep]

Whaaaaaat? So you're saying they went from a 550HP/5Armor Obsidian Statue to a 450HP/1.5Armor Destroyer? Seems... Ok, maybe that isn't crazy. But doubled? Gotta source on that tidbit?

duh I made it up. the truth is blizzard only gets balance right by accident, and sometimes they stop patching before one happens.

I looked it up; I suppose Piercing vs. Light is pretty good, and conversely Magic vs. Normal isn't that good, so Headhunters seem like a decent matchup. Just seems crazy; dinky blue dudes with primitive spears besting massive aerial monstrosities of living stone & nether magic-sucking powers.

they do alright against them, being able to attack air and having the right armor and damage types. what they don't do alright against is heroes, since they are slow and made of paper. a destroyer with half its hit points and armor would still have 100 hp and 1.5 armor more than a headhunter. they're immune to magic, which is the thing most heroes would like to use to kill things, move fast, will fly to unpathable terrain before their 9000 hitpoints are depleted and also get maximum value from coil thanks to having a ridiculous armor rating.

it also doesn't help that undead can restore their mana infinitely with statues and so can run back and forth nuking a unit to death, saving their own and healing up. all races have one or two specific things that are able to do damage to a destroyer while it is flying away, and nothing else at all can do anything.

oh right they also have dispel and the orb thing that makes their stats from good to unreasonably good.

 

[Kyrbi0]

duh I made it up. the truth is blizzard only gets balance right by accident, and sometimes they stop patching before one happens.

I BEEN BUMBOOZLED.

... and also get maximum value from coil thanks to having a ridiculous armor rating.

Hm? What's this about?

it also doesn't help that undead can restore their mana infinitely with statues and so can run back and forth nuking a unit to death,...

I mean, only as infinitely as the statues survive. Can Obsidian Statues use Spirit Touch to regenerate the mana of Destroyers?... Or are you just referring to the Absorb Mana spell? Because either way, the Statues run out of mana, and/or can be killed by siege stuff.

oh right they also have dispel and the orb thing that makes their stats from good to unreasonably good.

I know. I <3 Destroyers. The only problem was losing the name (& model) "Black Sphinx". : )

 

[doom_sheep]

Hm? What's this about?

healing spells heal a certain amount of hit points. however, the more armor a unit has, the more damage it takes for them to lose the same amount of hit points. typically heroes with their armor, armor type and magic resistance will tank tons if they're being healed, as will units being hit with the wrong damage type.

I mean, only as infinitely as the statues survive. Can Obsidian Statues use Spirit Touch to regenerate the mana of Destroyers?... Or are you just referring to the Absorb Mana spell? Because either way, the Statues run out of mana, and/or can be killed by siege stuff.

you keep the statues back, move forward with the heroes enough to use their spells and maybe hit with a unit or two depending on things. then move back and statue everything back to full and repeat. even if the statues do get engaged, you can destroyer morph it and use coil. it's entirely foolproof.

destroyers indeed don't get their mana regenerated except by using their abilities, but heroes will get infinite free spells from a statue.