[Altered Melee] Unit Ideas

[xyzier_24]

Currently making the Demon race of my Altered Melee, so I would like to get ABILITY ideas from other users so that I know what you my lords would like to see in it


The units are:

Primary unit

Fel Orc Grunt

• Art - Model File units\demon\ChaosGrunt\ChaosGrunt

Spellcasters

Armaros

• Art - Model File Units\Demon\ChaosOrcRange\ChaosOrcRange.mdl

Fel Orc Warlock

• Art - Model File units\demon\ChaosWarlock\ChaosWarlock

Diabolist

• Art - Model File units\demon\EredarWarlock\EredarWarlock.mdl

Heroes

Gorefang Warchief

• Art - Model File units\demon\ChaosHellscream\ChaosHellscream

Hellbringer

• Art - Model File units\demon\HeroChaosBladeMaster\HeroChaosBladeMaster

Other units are done (the two other heroes will be Pit Lord and Firelord).

 

[cleavinghammer]

Not sure what you're looking for. Abilities or model ideas?

 

[xyzier_24]

Not sure what you're looking for. Abilities or model ideas?

oops. I forgot. Sorry lol

Ability Ideas

 

[Embraced]

Maybe we should get more of a story behind them? so we can know what their role is and we have a better idea of what abilities to make.

Anyways, For the hell bringer, maybe make a ability that he can summon felhounds that when attacking emeny units, he will gain a limit amount of hitpoints by them? so like they have life chains attached to him

 

[xyzier_24]

Maybe we should get more of a story behind them? so we can know what their role is and we have a better idea of what abilities to make.

Anyways, For the hell bringer, maybe make a ability that he can summon felhounds that when attacking emeny units, he will gain a limit amount of hitpoints by them? so like they have life chains attached to him

Sorry, milord. I'm not good at making stories.
But the story could be based on the stories of the Fel Orcs

Summon Felhounds with chained life steal eh? Will do, milord.

 

[Wasabee]

What about spread damage taken by Hellbringer to your felhounds.

Spell that increases Hellbringer and its felhounds movement speed and attack speed by like 30% but decrease armor.

And it's ultimate will help synergize between Hellbringer and his felhounds like increase attack damage of hellounds and the duration of the second spell like that?

 

[cleavinghammer]

Gorefang Warchief

Rip and Tear: (Passive) Every attack does splash damage and heals the hero by a percentage of the damage done.
Boiling Blood: Temporarily increases damage and attackspeed. The hero takes damage every second, while melee attackers take damage.
Shieldbreaker: Locks onto a single enemy. While active, does extra damage equal to a multiple of the currently attacked target's armor.
Warcry: The hero and surrounding allies gain the Berserk status, along with increased damage and reduced armor.

 

[xyzier_24]

What about spread damage taken by Hellbringer to your felhounds.

Spell that increases Hellbringer and its felhounds movement speed and attack speed by like 30% but decrease armor.

And it's ultimate will help synergize between Hellbringer and his felhounds like increase attack damage of hellounds and the duration of the second spell like that?

Sounds like a combination of Lycanthrope and Syllabear of DotA, but sounds interesting. Will do

Gorefang Warchief

Rip and Tear: (Passive) Every attack does splash damage and heals the hero by a percentage of the damage done.
Boiling Blood: Temporarily increases damage and attackspeed. The hero takes damage every second, while melee attackers take damage.
Shieldbreaker: Locks onto a single enemy. While active, does extra damage equal to a multiple of the currently attacked target's armor.
Warcry: The hero and surrounding allies gain the Berserk status, along with increased damage and reduced armor.

The Warchief's blood is boiling grrrr
Will do, milord

WARNING

Whay no sujeschon on spilcastors and da grant, Nazis?

 

[Wasabee]

About the grunt

Chaotic Rage - Changes grunt's attack damage into chaos attack but reduces armor.

 

[VeljkoM]

How about first construct basic techtree and then design further units. Still lacking ranged, 3rd tier melee, 2 siege units (melee and ranged), 2/3 air units (Light AA, Heavy and Caster/Special). Ideally you should have 12 units. Well actually you only have models which is just appearance.

*Grunt
Considering Chaos\Fel Grunt will be tier 1 melee unit that will probably want to see action in later game too, thus he should have two upgrades. First tier upgrade, perhaps berserk but definitely some ability that is easy to use like passive or click activated. Tier 2 upgrade should boost stats (damage, HP and/or speed) and you can actually keep the basic grunt upgrade here. Definitely normal attack and heavy armor, no excuse there.

*Casters
I am honestly against 3 casters since casters are hard to design. You can easily remove Diabolist since he isn't orc at all and you already have warlock anyway. I usually am for making a caster that aids your own troops, caster that curses enemy units and anti-caster. Do not give any caster ever direct damage spell, they aren't DPS units they are support. Yes I know that Chaos/fel Warlock has Fireball/Storm Hammer but don't you think it is abusive to be able to spam 2 food units that have a hero stun ability?

Last note is preemptive warning about chaos attack. Do not give it to any unit unless as part of temporary ability. For example if your Grunt has chaos attack he will deal same damage to other melee units and even worse he will deal lower damage to ranged units. Chaos robs you from benefits of attack/armor system benefits by always dealing 100% damage and never extra damage.

Oh and regarding heroes. While it is tempting to give them rpg abilities and focus on damage dealing please try to remember people that Heroes should work with armies.

 

[xyzier_24]

No, VeljkoM my friend. You got it all wrong.

Other units are done (the two other heroes will be Pit Lord and Firelord).

I actually said this. This means I already finished most of my units;

a. A Townhall-type structure with Level 3 tier upgrade

b. A Barracks-like structure with 2 units done (it has 3 units that can be trained and the 3rd one is the Fel Orc Grunt, which is not yet done.)

c. A food-source structure, a research structure, a defensive tower, etc. (They even have their own orb tho.

d. A spell-caster structure that should have an aiding caster (that would be the Armaros), a debuff caster (the Fel Orc Warlock), and an anti-spellcaster (Diabolist maybe). Yes, no DPS/damaging spells must be applied to the casters, since this will make them a damage source instead of support source, that's why I need ability ideas to these units (NOTE: I'm really not planning to add firebolt ability to the Warlock since it's not a good debuff and might bring imbalance but still, it could be fixed to have a balanced effect to the game). And why remove the Diabolist? I didn't say it's a Fel Orc-only race. It's Demons (fel orcs have some blood of the demons though. but don't worry, I'll make a lore on why this Fel Orcs is with the original Demons since the Human race has Elves and Dwarves in it that should not be, same with the Orc race having Taurens and Trolls in their units)

e. Yes, chaos attacks are pretty bad since it gives 100% damage (no reduction and no extra). But, chaos attacks are already part of the Fel Orcs since it's in their lore to have these kind of damage. I'll be giving it to some unit, but not all (Spellcasters with chaos attacks looks ugly, same with heroes and siege units). Don't worry mate, I'm planning for a good map.

f. RPG abilities for an Altered Melee project? Yes, milord. I'm already aware of that. Suggestions given by our fellow modders here will have some improvements to fit the "Altered Melee" category. If their suggestion is a "hero to target" or vice versa, I'll try to make it "nearby allies to nearby foes" or vice versa. It's ugly to think of a Hero whose abilities doesn't fit the word "HERO". A hero is like a savior, right? So, yes.

Still, thanks for reminding me this. A friend who cares in others' map to make it good

 

[VeljkoM]

Sorry for misunderstanding but it would still be helpful to know about whole race from suggesters perspective. Still what I said is also for other people who want to make suggestions.

(B.)
Anyway for example regarding grunt, you didn't say he is 3rd tier melee unit (if that is what you mean by 3rd unit in barracks). If it was 3rd tier unit then I would suggest only a passive ability since he won't need stat booster upgrade. Tempted to say that passive should be cleave.

(C.)
By the way now I know that you do have basic techtree but still there are things people sometimes forget like secondary function for food building (though chances are it is burrow anyway), some sort of defense system besides towers. And great that they get their own orb, does that mean you have also given them their own items for other categories (besides mandatory potions and Town Portal Scroll). I do hope that these features aren't copies of regular orcs.

(D.)
-Ok Amaros, he should have some heal (boring but practical), perhaps based of alchemist healing. First ability could be if it is possible to add increased sight range and give true sight to a unit or alternatively friendly single target dispel... yes I know it is similar to purge but you can make it friendly only and increase speed instead of decrease it. And last could be something that sacrifices units health/armor for temporary increase of attack/attack speed since as an orc race you'll most likely want to focus on brute strength of the units (can be based of inner fire).

-Warlock could have auto-cast to reduce enemy attack, could use banish as crowd control ability and I guess a summoning of sorts (maybe friendly fire Doom to get a temporary demon). I know that summoning on simple units is nor that good idea but can it really be a warlock without summoning a demon?

-Now I know that fel orcs don't need only fel orc units but in case of Eredar they are hierarchically higher so I can see them more as heroes than units. Kinda like a Dreadlord for undead. But that is personal preference. Anyway as for abilities (if he gets to be anti caster) magic immunity (mandatory actually), a target spell that hurts caster for each mana point it spends (this ability should use an upgrade) and orb attack effect (passive) that destroys enemy buffs and does extra damage to summoned units (default ability). You can either give him pierce damage to be more effective at killing casters but magic feel more logical for model and can be used as combination with banish (if warlock gets it that is).

Overall my suggestions are boring but I believe they are practical at least.

F. yeah that was really more aimed at other people. In majority cases people design dps heroes and really lack any support. Sadly I myself am bad at making heroes and generally go for summoner/dps intel hero, tank str hero and agi hero killer. And actually in this case for Hero definition I would go for the ancient greek original meaning of person capable of extra ordinary feats (well ok literally it was more of "demigod").

 

[xyzier_24]

b) Oops. 'bout that, uhm, the Fel Orc Grunt is the 1st tier unit. Cleave seems to be weird for Grunts 'cos they only wield an axe, but will still try if it is good. BTW, my Fel Orc Grunts have a shield on their other hand so defensive upgrade might look nice.
c) Not all food sources have secondary uses (Human's Farm is an example). And in this race, their food source is a Pig Farm which provides low amount of food that will range from 6 to 9 (must be balanced). They should have "cons", so lack of food source can be one of it (yah mate, they need more food 'cos they're strong and mostly hungry all the time). And yes, their tower has secondary uses too. Yes milord, they also have their own items which are not copied from other races (items with same uses are boring).
d) True Sight is good, but it seems to be not useful enough 'cos only few units can become invisible (unless the enemy has many Human's Sorceress) (but can be useful against my future race, the Lost Ones, which most of them has Permanent Invisibility) Still thinking if I'm going to use it, but Improved Sight seems better.

Banish eh? Then a summoned unit that can attack ethereal units. These could be a good combination. Reduce enemy attack is a bit common in the game, but let me try if this will be good.

You're right I also taught that Eredars should be a hero, but it seems that I already have enough heroes (4) for the race. Anyways, good combination with the Warlock. What if, a passive attack that transfers buffs to an enemy or ally (Spell Steal ability, but passive) To be honest, mate, magic immunity doesn't fit the unit (just my opinion), but Spell Block could be better. Whatcha think about this?

f) true, mate. some people creates RPG abilities on maps that doesn't need an RPG ability. Don't worry, my friend. Even though there is no Int nor a support hero in this race, supporting abilities will still be given to these heroes (1 supporting ability per hero, or 2 supporting ability for Grom model and Fel Blademaster model).

Thanks, milord. It seems your suggestions can make a big impact for the race

 

[VeljkoM]

B) Oh Cleave was only if it was 3rd tier unit since they traditionally have passives (except bears). Think in case of tier 1 berserk or something would be better. Fel Grunts even have animation for it just it doesn't show off. Oh and back to the tier 2 stat boost of course.

C) Ahh but cheapness and small build space makes Farms best walls, doesn't it. You could say that makes them defensive too especially since they do have armor upgrade. I am taking a wild guess it will be same here just with spiked barricades instead of armor upgrade.

D) True Sight is not that critical but all races do need it just in case. Gyrocopters, Shade, Wards, Scouts. I would say though Blademaster is biggest reason to get detectors and then for the rest like to counter crypt fiends trying to heal underground. But you know the dispel like ability would be more critical since not having it is too big disadvantage. Kinda why TFT focused so much on anti-magic features.

Banish, plus summon Void Walker then. Or Succubus. And reduce attack is too simple but auto-casts shouldn't be too complicated. Still reduce attack is less common than reduce speed and armor and there is no auto-cast attack reduction as far as I can remember.

Think between Eredar and Pit Lord you made a good choice since after all Pit Lord blood feeds Fel Orcs. Hm yes orb effect ability can use spellbreakers ability, maybe b it can use mana if you want actually). And yeah magic immunity from lore perspective doesn't fit but from gameplay perspective all anti-caster units have it (dryad, fairy dragon, spellbreaker, destroyer). Spell Block while would protect them from spells it won't do much for magic attacks but it is your choice. Most fitting would be self activating anti-magic shell actually.

F) Well you could make Fire Lord intelligence hero so he would focus more on casting and not just be same as tavern one. That way if I am not mistaken you would have 2 strength heroes Pit Lord and Warchief (since Warchief is a leader hero I don't see why he shouldn't support army with aura, command shouts or something), 1 agility Hellbringer (hero killer probably) and Fire Lord intelligence hero.

What can I say I like custom races.

 

[Embraced]

Yeah sounds like a good map you going to have here, cant wait to see my chained felhounds it would be cool to see them have a leash on them attached to the Hellbringer let me kno if you need a tester also i can be one.

 

[Wasabee]

We'll wait for your map. Asteeeg

 

[xyzier_24]

b) I have this ideas running through my mind for an hour while I'm in my school lol
Where the lower the health of Fel Grunts are, the greater the bonus damage they have since Fel Grunts looks tougher and deadlier when has low health and has demon blood. Would this look better or nah?

c) Actually, I still can't think a better defensive tech for Demon Structures since I want its tech to be unique not a copy of Spiked Barricades nor Improved Masonry. Can be a tech that also affects the food source since it doesn't have secondary uses.

d) Since this race has a Fel Stalker unit that has Permanent Invisibility 'cos it have "Stalker" in its name, True Sights could be useful though against players with the same race and since Fel Stalkers have the word "Stalker" in its name, True Sight could be better if Fel Stalkers have it. Still, a very good idea you gave. Maybe why TFT focuses on anti-magics 'cos magics can turn the tide of battle? A good combination of magic is very useful.

Void Walkers is a good summon since they do look like magical creatures and a spirit. I can't use Succubi tho, they are the 2nd tier unit in their Barracks (ranged). Rather than damage reduction, since Fel Orcs are focused on brute strength, why not armor reduction? or why not both? Or a disarm effect? What do you think?

Spell Block looks nicer because Magic Immunity for Eredars might be overpowered since this race is very strong in war, and Spell Block could be a con for the race. Tell me if I'm wrong.

f) Firelords do look better if they are Int rather than Agi. A Warchief can't be called as a Warchief if he cannot command/support his army, right? So yes, warchief could be a supporting Str hero. The Hellbringer, on the other hand, could be a hero killer while doing other roles?

Yeah sounds like a good map you going to have here, cant wait to see my chained felhounds it would be cool to see them have a leash on them attached to the Hellbringer let me know if you need a tester also i can be one.

Sure, mate How sweet of you. #Iloveyouguys

 

[VeljkoM]

B) From my experience best ideas come when you can't implement them. That ability does sound creative but I guess strategically it isn't practical thing to use. The only benefit is to encourage you to risk damaged units. Think it would be easier to implement ability appearing when unit is at 50% than to constantly check each unit for its HP% and add appropriate damage booster.

C) Yeah it is hard but each race must have defensive mechanism besides towers. Maybe instead of farms all other buildings could serve as garrisons. Or main building to be able to rally units to fight better.

D) Funny how Fell Stalker traditionally is anti-magic being, yet I still prefer the RoC name Fel Hound myself. Also remember to balance the invisibility, add longer fade time so you can just attack, stealth and attack again and thus avoiding any counter.

Indeed magic is powerful, but in this case I am guessing they added more anti-magic stuff so there would be a counter to it. Before Orcs had Disenchant and Undead had Destroyers those two races were at disadvantage.

I was hoping it would be void walker honestly. And yeah it would be better to make enemy units more vulnerable than weaker. Heh maybe most ideal would be Fear, makes enemy units unable to fight back and run. Think you can use silence to remove ability to attack or if you want channel can use Dragonhawk Cloud.

Well is that ability overpowered on all other anti-casters? It is their purpose counter magic after all, but must have weak armor (definitely not heavy armor, spell breakers lost it with patch for a good reason). Of course this would be only in case of anti-caster unit not all Eredar units. And anyway with that ability or not he definitely shouldn't make Succubus obsolete as main ranged units.

F) Well most hero killers get wide variety of abilities: single target ability to mess with enemy hero (Shadow Strike, Mana Burn, Soul Burn), AoE damage ability so they wouldn't be useless against enemy units (Fan of Knives, Immoltation), survival skills (blink, evade, mirror image, shadow walk (also single target damage)). Basicly these guys disrupt enemy lines and hinder enemy heroes. They get in, cause chaos and get out.

Oh by the way if you plan to keep 4 original races I should remind you to set map to use latest patch. For some reason editor by default does not use it so spellbreakers have heavy armor, necropolis has high attack, tavern lacks 3 heroes etc.

 

[xyzier_24]

We'll wait for your map. Asteeeg

How lovely to read this. Thank you

BTW.

b) Yes, I also thought about that, that's why I'm planning to add more healing abilities in the race (passive and active), allowing to maintain the life of these Fel Grunts. Also, I think it's also a good strategy to know how many health should a player maintain for his units 'cos if he'll let his Fel Grunts' health low, then even a single skill could kill them, so he have to think of a right amount of health to maintain. Also, could also be strategical since the player should be aware that these Grunts must be used as tanks and for fronts.

c)The models of the structures are similar to these I used this model as a Town Hall tho. So I think garrison doesn't fit. Still a good idea, but if you have better, maybe we should give it a try.

d) Yes, I won't make things imbalanced but to be sure, I'm going to let people see the beta version so that they could help me make balances.

Which is better or do you prefer, an AOE disarm, a channeling AOE, or a single target?

Spell Block could sometimes be better than Magic Immunity, since Spell Block still allows the unit to be targeted with spells, thus, this allows his foes to cast two target spells on it that should only be one when on other units. Also, this would benefit the non-antimagic units since they could avoid being targeted by spells. And a fast cooldown Spell Block could do, plus strong orb-effect attack. Can still be balanced tho and might bring more confusion to its enemies 'cos his enemies must think first if they should cast two or more abilities in just a single antimagic unit or just ignore that unit and cast it in non-antimagic units. The Succubi are actually a 2nd tier unit, not a summon, and I also trying to be 'resourceful' and 'creative' like I creating my own Build animation w/o using Model Editor.

f) I guess you're right. Will be checking those while making the 'suggested skills'.
I might add additional effects on suggestions since Mr. Embraced wants to see his requested 'linked/chained felhounds'.

 

[VeljkoM]

b) Didn't occur to me they would be healing oriented. Still wouldn't passive heals ruin then ability by not allowing you to maintain sufficiently low health. In the end it would be easier to just ignore attack bonus and keep your troops healthy and if wounded out of harm.

c) Ah should think less like a grunt and more like warlock. In that case maybe some buildings should have an evil aura, or chance to summon demons. Heh you could make towers summoning demons by attacking, or banish enemy units.

d) Channel on a squishy unit might not be worth it, AoE disarm might be too good for a 2 food cheap unit, so I am going with single target version as it is easiest to balance.

Spell Block would work only the first time, since once you know not to target them advantage is lost. Now if it instead attracted spells from other units to itself then it would helpful or if it would block spells from being cast like a counterspell. Nobody would waste hard spells on anti-magic unit, you would always target enemy hero or CC heavy melee/heavy flyers.

I didn't say anything about succubus in my last post. Also don't you mean tier 1 ranged unit or 2nd unit in barracks.

Well regarding birth animation normally I would just say attach naga birth/death to buildings you are going to use and import model and set path to replace naga birth. But problem would be if you decide to add naga race.

F) Hey summons are always good ability, and since they are healing him well it could be by some stretch survival ability which agility heroes love.

 

[xyzier_24]

c) Buildings that can summon demons? Why would I waste time for...NOT doing it. Fantastic idea dude. Fits very well on the race and is very unique.

d) I also thought about that. I will be using Drunken Haze ability for disarm, since the Breathe of Fire is still not yet used.

Oh shit I forgot, only target spells can be blocked by Spell Block. But still, Magic Immunity doesn't fit. So, I'll be using your 'auto-magicshell' idea you said.

About the Birth animation, I'm using low file-size effects, triggers, and some creativity to do it. It has already been done