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Post 1 Reserved for space for this thread. This post will be used as: Introduction/Table of Contents
Hey there,
This post will be made a little more formal, shortly. I will be discussing, numerically, the different builds and item concepts being tossed around, with numeric support and evidence to back them up, in this thread. I intend to [eventually] have information for every class. For this reason, I will be making a few double posts to reserve room for this quasi-guide.
In fact, there will be this introductory/Table of Contents post, and then 5 posts to follow (1 per base class). After that, comments and all will be freely accepted.
I will be reformatting this post to make it prettier afterwards.
To any Mods: Please don't wipe these posts for spam/double posts yet. They will end up being populated, and it will be much simpler for people to review if it isn't a giant mass of text in 1 post.
Monk The Steel-Body Conundrum
At current, most Monks have a standard gear setup: Equipment: Bandana of the Sun Lord, Robes of Swiftness, Light Imbued Glyph/Enchanted Fire Rune, Ring of Shielding, and Small Vault
And what self-respecting, D3-geared Monk wouldn't use these? On a Level 35 Monk (including Confidence), your base stats are as follows: Base Stats HP/Mana: 120/100
26 Str, 20 Agi, 20 Int Attack Power: 21 - 23 Spellpower: 20 Crit Chance %: 8 Crit Damage %: 160 Armor Piercing: 13 Evasion: 9% Armor: 0 (Duh)
That's a nice boost! 18% more evasion? +220 HP, and some good Stat gains.
However, the point of this entry is to talk about the Monk's signature skill: Steel Body. Let's take a look at the basic description: Steel Body:
+100% Elemental Threat
+(Level / 4) + (Agi / 10) + (Int / 5) Armor
+(Level / 3) + (Int / 10)% Evasion
-Disables Healing spells (Divine Protection and Heal, but not Burst of Light)
Quite a neat little passive we've got here! This is what turns Monks into a formidable Tanking force.
Plugging some numbers in (in this case, the geared, no-stat example from above), we should be able to predict the outcome:
Added to the previous values, we will have 38 Armor, and 41% Evasion.
Which brings us to the actual question of all this: Should we be pumping Intelligence, to maximize the bonuses from Steel Body (as every point of Int gets 100% more weight than a point in Agi for Armor, and Agi doesn't help Evasion), or pump Agility to make us some damage (both in attack damage, and attack speed), or is there some precarious balance we should be observing?
First, I'll point out the obvious limits. At Level 35, you cannot exceed 18 in any stat. So, 18 Int/17 Agi would produce the best results for Steel Body. Added to the 34 Agi and 28 Int from before, we'll get 45 Int and 51 Agi.
Armor = (35/4) + (51/10) + (45/5) = 22.85 = +22 Armor
Evasion = (35/3) + (45/10) = 16.16 = +16% Evasion (Plus factor in +2% more Evasion, as you gain +1% Evasion for every 12 Agi, meaning at 36 and 48, we'd be passing the 12-mark).
Totalling 43 Armor and 45% Evasion.
We can also look at, strictly for limit's sakes, using Arcane Seal on the Monk, rather than Ring of Shielding. You're essentially getting +4 Int and +25 HP on the Arcane, while you gain +4% Evasion, +35 HP, +3 Agility and +4 Armor on the Ring. Is the +4 Int worth it? The basic math would say: Not a chance. +4 Int would give +0.8 Armor & +0.4% Evasion, which may not even pay off depending on rounding, whereas you'd lose the item's own Evasion, the +0.3 Armor from the Agility, and the item's own Armor. Not even factoring in the 10 HP difference.
The same applies to Lunar Mantle. Exchanging -3 Agi and -5% Evasion for +4% Crit Chance and +5 Int gets you +1 Armor and +0.5% Evasion for the Int, but -0.3 Armor from Agility, and losing the natural Evasion bonus. If you need +1 Armor and +4% Crit Chance in exchange for 4% Evasion and the Agility, then it's alright, but overall it seems to be a complete waste.
So, back to the matter at hand: Level 35 caps at 43 Armor and 45% Evasion. But that leaves you with a meager 340 HP! This will never work against bosses, or anything with Bash, or anything with spells or critical strikes....
Monk The Steel-Body Conundrum
At current, most Monks have a standard gear setup: Equipment: Bandana of the Sun Lord, Robes of Swiftness, Light Imbued Glyph/Enchanted Fire Rune, Ring of Shielding, and Small Vault
And what self-respecting, D3-geared Monk wouldn't use these? On a Level 35 Monk (including Confidence), your base stats are as follows: Base Stats HP/Mana: 120/100
26 Str, 20 Agi, 20 Int Attack Power: 21 - 23 Spellpower: 20 Crit Chance %: 8 Crit Damage %: 160 Armor Piercing: 13 Evasion: 9% Armor: 0 (Duh)
That's a nice boost! 18% more evasion? +220 HP, and some good Stat gains.
However, the point of this entry is to talk about the Monk's signature skill: Steel Body. Let's take a look at the basic description: Steel Body:
+100% Elemental Threat
+√[(Int*1.3)*(Agi)] * 0.6 Armor
+√[(Int*1.3)*(Agi)] * 0.9% Evasion
-Disables Healing spells (Divine Protection and Heal, but not Burst of Light)
Quite a neat little passive we've got here! This is what turns Monks into a formidable Tanking force.
Plugging some numbers in (in this case, the geared, no-stat example from above), we should be able to predict the outcome:
Added to the previous values, we should expect 42 Armor, and 58 or 59% evasion. Sure enough, the values shown in-game are 42 and 58%.
Which brings us to the actual question of all this: Should we be pumping Intelligence, to maximize the bonuses from Steel Body (as every point of Int gets 30% more weight than a point in Agi), or pump Agility to make us some damage (both in attack damage, and attack speed), or is there some precarious balance we should be observing?
First, I'll point out the obvious limits. At Level 35, you cannot exceed 18 in any stat. So, 18 Int/17 Agi would produce the best results for Steel Body.
Skipping the boring math part, it comes out to +33.13 Armor and +49.70% Evasion, totalling 54 Armor and 76% Evasion
We can also look at, strictly for limit's sakes, using Arcane Seal on the Monk, rather than Ring of Shielding. You're essentially getting +4 Int and +25 HP on the Arcane, while you gain +4% Evasion, +35 HP, +3 Agility and +4 Armor on the Ring. Is the +4 Int worth it?
+√[(50*1.3)*(48)] * 0.6 Armor = +33 Armor
+√[(50*1.3)*(48)] * 0.9% Evasion = +50% Evasion
So, +1 Evasion and no Armor gain, for the cost of 10 HP, 4 Evasion from the item, and 4 Armor. All told, you lose 10 HP, 3 Evasion and 4 Armor. Definitely not worth it.
The same applies to Lunar Mantle. Exchanging -3 Agi and -5% Evasion for +4% Crit Chance and +5 Int gets you:
+√[(51*1.3)*(48)] * 0.6 Armor = +33 Armor
+√[(51*1.3)*(48)] * 0.9% Evasion = +50% Evasion
A net loss of -4% Evasion, same Armor and HP, for some better Spellpower and Critical chance. Factor in the obsene rarity, and it's not worthwhile.
So, back to the matter at hand: Level 35 caps at 54 Armor and 76% Evasion. But that leaves you with a meager 340 HP! This will never work against bosses, or anything with Bash, or anything with spells or critical strikes....
So, what kind of compromise can we look at? The first factor to consider is your HP. 340 is pretty darn low, and that's assuming you use your standard gear all the time. If you swap out to a Fire resistant Hat and Thaumaturgist's robes, you'll lose another 50 HP.
Personally, I wouldn't work with any less than 460 HP, as this number becomes 410 with this Fire resistance gear, and it gives a little bit of a buffer against unavoidable spells. This would cost 8 points to Constitution, leaving us with 27 to spend.
So, let's say we decided we wanted to max either Intelligence or Agility with the remainder. We'll first do 18 Int/9 Agi, and then 9 Int/18 Agi
Well, you can see here that maxing Intelligence gives a slight edge, but only slightly.
I should point out that, while doing these calculations and actually looking at the formula, I've discovered something that I believe may be an error in the formula. Namely, you square root three numbers that are multiplied together. It doesn't make ANY difference where the brackets are in this, 3 numbers multiplied together can be multiplied in any order. So Intelligence doesn't actually get any extra bonus over Agility.
It should ALSO be noted that, while playing with numerous stat resets while making this guide, I learned that Every +12 Agility = +1% Evasion. Stupid hidden stats!
Factoring in that last tidbit of information, we'd see that the Intelligence model would give +32 Armor and +48% Evasion, while the Agility, exceeding another multiple of 12, would give +31 Armor, and +48% Evasion. So, the Intelligence still wins out, if barely, but at what cost? At 12 damage and attack speed! Sure, it gives some more Spellpower, but that's not the ideal.
Long story short: The magic of Square roots is that there is actually a 'best' option for the greatest turnout. This is usually proven with a graph.... Which is going to bore all of you. So, a brief formula will suffice:
+√[(28+x)*1.3*(34+27-x)] = +√[(28+x)*1.3*(61-x)] = √[-1.3x2 + 42.9x + 2220.4]... The overall outcome is that the max value is between 16 and 17, with both giving the same value. Meaning that 16 Int, in the example of the level 35 hero, would maximize Steel Body. You'd have 44*1.3*45 or 45*1.3*44. Essentially, keeping your Agility and Intelligence as close together as possible (including equipment) will produce the best results for Steel Body.
This is a basic mathematical truth: Multiplying two numbers who have the same sum will result in a larger product if the two numbers are closer together in value (5*5 = 25, while 6*4 = 24, 7*3 = 21, and so on).
However, that again requires us to ask what the trade-off is. If you want to maximize this great skill, and give an even balance of Spellpower and Attack Power, you can keep your Agility and Intelligence as close together as possible. If you want a little more offensive prowess, you don't lose much by spoiling Agility and dumping the remainder into Intelligence.
I'd rather know this, than maximize Intelligence needlessly and be completely weak.
This was a very number-intensive entry, so I'm going to call it quits, here.
Sorcerer The Critical-Chance Build
At current, most casters have a standard gear setup, and standard Stat setup: Stats: Max Intelligence, Max/Mostly Constitution (some will also utilize some Wisdom, too, but in small doses) Equipment: Ghostly Hat, Burning Heart, Lunar Mantle, and then Mindbender/White Staff, and Arcane Seal/Pendant of Magic
The debate stems from the last two item pairs: Why would someone go for a White Staff over a Mindbender (excluding purposes of expense), or a Pendant of Magic over an Arcane Seal?
Well, let's take a look at the numbers. They don't tend to lie.
I ran this with a Level 37 Sorcerer. The following stats were observed: Base, wearing Ghostly Hat, Lunar Mantle, and Burning Heart HP/Mana: 380/215 Int: 54+14 (68) Spellpower: 86 Crit Chance %: 19 Crit Damage %: 154
Various combinations of gear showed the following numbers:
Alrighty, so we're looking at a standard difference in the following:
40 HP, 15 Mana, 2 Int, 8 Spellpower, and 6% Crit chance. Plus the activatable skill, all told.
Well, is the 6% Crit chance worth 8 Spellpower? Let's take a look at the math:
On average, Fireball does Spellpower * 2.5 damage to the main target.
113 SP = 282.5 damage
105 SP = 262.5 damage
But wait, let's factor in the averages for criticals!
19% Critical chance of 154% damage means there is an 81% chance of 100% damage.
Well, would these numbers change with a different spell? Let's say, Waterball, dealing Spellpower *4 damage?
498.3752 damage vs 476.7 damage vs 487.7968 damage. It's quite close, yet again.
Long story short, the only factor that would drastically affect this would be gear that adds +Critical Damage, or putting Strength into your Sorcerer. For example, the initial Fireball numbers, at 160% damage, would become:
314.705 damage vs 301.875 vs 308.47 damage.
At 200% damage, this becomes even more apparent:
336.175 damage vs 328.125 damage vs 332.45 damage.
For the Mindbender/Arcane combo to be matched in damage by the White Scepter/Pendant combo, the Critical Damage chance would have to be 267.4% bonus damage.
Given that I don't see this happening anytime soon, when it comes to Fireball (or Magic Missile, or any single-instance-of-damage spell), the Mindbender/Arcane combo clearly wins out.
With Water Globes, we see a total of 3 globes dealing Spellpower * 4 damage on average. Breaking this down, we get 1.33*Spellpower three times, each with a unique crit chance. For the math, I will simply average this out as one globe's average damage, including critical, multiplied by 3.
So, in conclusion, unless there is a drastically higher Critical damage raise, or you end up with substantially higher Critical chance in lieu of Spellpower, the base Spellpower will always win out.
Crusader Brains vs Brawns
Before 1.1j, Crusaders had the option of being Strength-based, for their single-target damage, or Intelligence based for the benefit of Crucify against waves of enemies. Due to the latter rendering them virtually useless against bosses, most players chose the following setup: Stats: Max Strength, Max Constitution Equipment: Executioner's Blade/Phoenix, Bulwark of the Crusader, Eternal Embrace, Reinforced Helm, Ring of Shielding/Searing Gloves
However, with 1.1j came a new skill for every Tier 2 class, including Crusaders. In this case, it was Celestial Zeal:
Activate Celestial Zeal (-): 5 Mana. Melee attacks deal Spellpower x 0.2 holy damage. The Crusader also gains 1 additional point of attack power for each intelligence point, but also suffers a penalty of 15 strength.
This skill, essentially a passive after being activated, changes the gameplay of Crusaders by adding Holy damage to their attacks, increasing their damage based on Intelligence, and somewhat penalizing the Crusader's Strength.
Now, at level 43, a Crusader has the following stats:
HP/Mana: 150/75 Str: 34 Agi: 26 Int: 19
With a typical Strength setup build (Executioner, Bulwark, Embrace, Reinforced and Searing), a Crusader has the following stats:
Base Stats with Gear HP/Mana: 325/75 Str: 34+8 Agi: 26+2 Int: 19 Armor: 47
Most Strength Crusaders will max Strength (go figure), and ensure they have a large amount of Constitution. Assuming 22 Strength and 15 Constitution, you have the following:
With 6 Stat points to spare (assuming no Seal quest). Those last 6 points could go into further Constitution, Agility, or Intelligence.
Now, we can already measure the basic benefits of Celestial Zeal, here. It adds Intelligence to damage, at the cost of 15 Strength, and adds 1/5 Spellpower to damage, as well. So, that means if the character's Intelligence is at least 15, it's worthwhile for most basic attacks (Shield Slam aside). Factoring that in, there seems to be a benefit to adding points to Intelligence, here, for more damage:
And then you'll be getting +(1/5 Spellpower = 5) damage on every attack, besides. Essentially, your damage is (57-59)+38, with an average of 96.
Let's compare these 2 damage sets, with a Critical chance of 11%:
81 damage with 175% crit damage gives 87.6825 average damage.
96 damage with 169% crit damage gives 103.2864 average damage. 15.6039 more damage, on average. Of course, with an Armor Piercing difference of 8, it could potentially be only 7.6039 better, but it's still higher.
So, clearly Celestial Zeal, even on a Strength Crusader, is worthwhile, adding an average of 7 or 15 damage per attack. However, how will this affect Skills?
Hateful Strike (W): 0 Mana. Instant melee attack, stunning the target for 1 second and dealing Attack Power x 1.5 physical damage. Other notes: 15s Cooldown.
Shield Slam (R): 0 Mana. Knocks back the target unit dealing Strength x 2 physical damage. Can interupt spells. Can only be used with a shield equipped. Creates a high amount of threat. Other notes: 12s Cooldown
Crucify (T): 9 Mana. Creates a shrinking cross of light beneath the caster every 0.7 seconds. Enemies hit by the cross take Spell Power x 1.5 divine damage for per hit. Undead take double damage. Creates a high amount of threat. Other notes: 30s Cooldown. 4 pulses.
Hateful Strike will get stronger with higher Attack Power, so Zeal definitely helps it out. Likewise, Crucify gets stronger based on Spellpower, which Intelligence supports; activating Zeal, itself, has no effect. Shield Slam, on the other hand, is based on Strength*2, so it'd get weaker.
Factoring in the Crit chances for Shield slam, you'd go from 138.56 to 105.4382, losing 33 damage.
-33 Damage to Shield Slam, in favour of +23 damage to Hateful Strike, and an unaffected Crucify. Given how many normal attacks you'd get at the +7 or +15 damage in between, it certainly seems to still be worthwhile to use Zeal.
As for Crucify, assuming Zeal is on, it would deal an average of 40.34625 damage a pulse, including Crits, totalling up to 161.385 Area of Effect damage.
However, the true question being: Mayhaps an Intelligence Build would be even better?
Let's take a look at the Crusader with an Intelligence build, and Intelligence gear. The new Shade boss of 1.1j has offered several interesting items, including Axe of the Tribe Lord, and the Black Defender. Using these, along with Eternal Embrace, Reinforced Helm and Arcane Seal, we have:
Factoring in the Spellpower damage of Zeal (+12 more damage), you have an average of 108 damage before crits, and 113.2704 after. Initially, this is already 10 damage higher than the Strength Crusader's Zeal-values. Though there is a 6 Armor Piercing drop, it still yields higher damage.
Additionally, Hateful Strike deals 169.9056, rather than 154.9296 (+15 more dmg), Shield Slam would deal 29.3664 rather than 105.4382 or 138.56 damage. A significant loss.
However, Crucify would now deal 94.392 average per pulse, for a total of 377.568 Area of effect damage. This is a difference of 216.183 damage, and it's AoE.
Now, you can get 2.5 Shield Slams in during the time you'd get just 1 Crucify, and assuming single target, you'd be looking at 190.1795 damage lost, comparing a Strength-build with Zeal-on, in Shield Slams, for the 216.183 gain in Crucify. Plus you see a gain in Hateful Strikes, which can be used twice per 1 Crucify, of +30 damage. Overall, including spells to a single target, you see a net gain of +56 damage, every 30 seconds.
However, I will note that something with Holy/Divine Immunity will throw these numbers for a loop. But you can't account for everything when you build your character. In this situation, the Strength build is clearly superior, as Zeal cannot be used.
It seems I forgot to factor in the Searing Gloves' damage into the Strength equation. They would add an effective +2.5 damage per swing, and therefore +3.75 damage to Hateful strike. Overall, it changes nothing in the outcomes found here.
So, overall, in the case best suited for the Strength Crusader (Single target, high armor, not Undead) you're dealing 4 damage more with every swing (including Critical chances dropping, Critical damage dropping, and Armor Piercing dropping), and +56 damage more with spells every 30 seconds (even more, if you included or kept Gaping Wounds, as it is based on Attack Power) with an Intelligence & Zeal based Crusader. Clearly, at this point, Brains topples Brawns, and the numbers prove it to be right. If you factor out some of the Strength-build benefits, such as many targets, undead, or lower armor, Intelligence is even more useful.
I just finally discovered all the numerical stuff behind Steel Body. Namely that Intelligence doesn't get a 30% bonus over Agility, due to how numbers multiple together (Int * 1.3) * Agi = (Int * 1.3 * Agi) = Int * Agi * 1.3..... etc.
Also found out that every 12 Agility is +1 Evasion. Neat!
So, going to max Agility on my Monks from here on out. The extra 1-2 armor or 1-2% evasion from Intelligence, in the long run (0 armor and 0% evasion, at the moment) doesn't pay off when you lose all your attack damage and attack speed.
Hate to disappoint you, but Steel body gets changed (nerfed) in 1.1j as it was ridicolously overpowered.
The new formula is:
armor: (Int x Agi + Agi²/3) / (1.5 x Level)
evasion: (Int x Agi + Agi²/3) / (3 x Level)
Also, some numbers on the new "celestial zeal" ability, which replaces my old "crusade" ability idea:
Melee attacks deal Spellpower x 0.2 holy damage. The Crusader also gains 1 additional point of attack power for each intelligence point, but also suffers a penalty of 15 strength.
Don't forget that "stats' are not everything, we still don't know from this if you max int, will soul strike produce more aggro or not, sicne soul strike if im not mistaken is a "elemental" spell I think elemental counts as anything not physical damage.
and, I'll help with squire builds. =D, Idc what you say i'm keeping my breastplate >.> It's nice for offtanking.
Just to clarify, I think you either misquoted your formula, or you buffed it.
(Int x Agi + Agi²/3) / (1.5 x Level)
Plug in the values from before (45 Agi, 44 Int, level 35)
(44 * 45 + 45²/3) / (1.5 * 35)
(1980 + 675) / (52.5)
= +50 Armor. Versus the old +30. And it would be +25% Evasion, versus the old +45%
Unless you actually mean:
[((Int x Agi) + Agi²)/3] / (1.5 x Level)
Which becomes +25 Armor, or +12% Evasion. Which seems VERY nerfed.
Also, for the Celestial Zeal, I presume this to mean the following:
Zwieb said:
Melee attacks deal Spellpower x 0.2 holy damage. The Crusader also gains 1 additional point of attack power for each intelligence point, but also suffers a penalty of 15 strength.
-Melee attacks deal normal damage, + (Spellpower/5) Holy damage.
-Crusaders get +1 Attack Power per Int
-If using this skill (assuming it is passive), Crusaders lose 15 Strength.
If it's -15 Str per Point of Int, it'd be.... silly.
Zwieb, after running some more numbers, I think that your new Steel Body formula is inherently flawed. Namely, as you level up, even if you continue to put points into Int and Agi, you will gain less and less armor and evasion.
Assuming no base stat gains between 35 and 40, the +5 points could go into the 44 Int/45 Agi to make it 47 each.
The math for this, if you're using the first style of the formula, is +49 Armor and +24% evasion. As you level, you actually REDUCE the effectiveness of the skill!
If you use the 2nd formula, it's +24 Armor and +12% Evasion. Still reduced. and this is only if you continue to put all your points into Agi and Int. If you don't do that, the values drop even more sharply.
I would propose that using any formula with a denominator of Level is going to be flawed in this way. For that reason, I will take a look at a possible alternative formula that doesn't fall victim to "the higher level you get, the weaker the skill gets". I'll edit it into this reply shortly.
Edit:
I would propose a formula, for the following reasons:
-I like the notion of giving more weight to Intelligence, rather than Agility. Agility improves many different things on the Monk, including Critical hit %, Armor, Attack Power, and Attack Speed. Intelligence only governs Spellpower, which is helpful in casts. I think that the Monk's brains should be what convert into his special Steel Body.
-Denominator of (Level) is a bad idea.
I propose the following formula, instead:
Bonus armor = [(1.3I + A)/20]2, where I = Intelligence, and A = Agility. Also written as:
{[(1.3 * Int) + Agi]/20}2.
This would give 30% more weight to Intelligence rather than Agility.
Bonus evasion = [(1.5I + A)/24]2.
This would make the Monk's brains factor in even further to Evasion (and I believe Intelligence = Perception = this makes sense for a Monk).
Utilizing the Level 35 'optimal' numbers from before (including stats for Constitution being used), let's plug in the 45 Int/44 Agi options from before:
[(1.3(45) + (44))/20]2
=[102.5/20]2
=(5.125)2
=+26 Armor. A nerf from before, and +1 armor on potentially-your new formula.
Evasion would be +21%. A significant loss from before, but still leaving the Monk with over 40% Evasion, including the aforementioned gear.
If we tried the 18 Int/9 Agi option from my original post, we'd see the same +26 Armor/+21 Evasion. If we maxed Agi, however, we'd get +25 Armor/+20 Evasion. A decrease, which is more than we currently have, or your formula would propose. Plus, Intelligence will continue to make a larger impact as you increase it. Maxing Int over Agi, assuming no base stat gains before Level 40, would result in 29 Armor/24 Evasion versus 28 Armor/22 Evasion. It's not a huge difference, but neither is the existing one. Nor your new one.
Level 40, having +29 Armor and +24% Evasion (Rather than the current +32 Armor/+48% Evasion, or your proposed +28 Armor/+14% Evasion with maxed Agility), seems much more appropriate. In fact, you'd be looking at roughly 45 or 46% evasion, which seems much fairer than the current 70-odd % evasion.
If you need any help with number balancings or formulas, I'm always willing to help. I'm actually quite good with numbers and systems, having built several in the past, including games.
Anyway, just my two cents. Could you also please answer whether or not Soul Strike/Crippling Curse get the bonus +Threat from Steel Body?
breastplate my ass
It won't be 15 points per int point, that would be messed up, I think it looks like a solid balance on converting builds mid run to work with whatever is most effective for a crusader.
Merry Christmas to all btw.
Max evasion obtained by a single skill like steel body should be at most 20%, its mechanics should favour either armour or evasion based on how you'd build you monk, not both, and not at ridiculous values that rival that of entire sets of items.
breastplate my ass
It won't be 15 points per int point, that would be messed up, I think it looks like a solid balance on converting builds mid run to work with whatever is most effective for a crusader.
Merry Christmas to all btw.
Max evasion obtained by a single skill like steel body should be at most 20%, its mechanics should favour either armour or evasion based on how you'd build you monk, not both, and not at ridiculous values that rival that of entire sets of items.
While I would normally agree, Vest, you have to take into account that you have a normally Int-based spellcaster, primarily support based, turning into a melee character whose purpose is to cause threat, draw aggro and tank. He has no real skills to accomplish this, as if he wears full Bishop gear he would have inferior stats to a Bishop (based on Weapon/Offhand, and base stats), and no tanking ability. His gear that allows him to tank offers little Intelligence/Spellpower, so he has to draw aggro in melee range, which forces close combat.
Steel Body helps with Threat generation, and helps keep him alive. He has Fury to help him create damage (though Bishops give this to any main-aggro char), Burst of Light to help him survive (with long cooldown), and that's it, for the time being. Steel Body provides him the necessary tanking, with bonus threat creation, while giving him no skills with which to create damage or threat. And it comes at the expense of Shield and Heal, which is a huge balancing fact to consider.
Personally, I don't see any issue with it. It's quite similar to the D&D model, all told.
Also what you can do for more aggro, It may sound strange but it all comes down to what you want to do,
INT main, Con Second ( Low Agi )
Stack SP Gear, meaning roll for bishop. this will end up in the best aggro and you'll need the con for lower hp due to different gear
Why not wait for some future skills to build agro on the monk, work a few points into wisdom, figure an int build for armor tanking with average nukes to hold agro or an agil build for solid melee dps with gear that has high evasion but can make use of future skills built around the monks mainstat, agility
having massive armor, evasion and threat just makes monks a solid mt to everything, where's the fun in that. They cant hold much aoe but if they eventually can the only thing that could kill them is nukes, that seems a bit unjust.
Zwieb, after running some more numbers, I think that your new Steel Body formula is inherently flawed. Namely, as you level up, even if you continue to put points into Int and Agi, you will gain less and less armor and evasion.
Assuming no base stat gains between 35 and 40, the +5 points could go into the 44 Int/45 Agi to make it 47 each.
The math for this, if you're using the first style of the formula, is +49 Armor and +24% evasion. As you level, you actually REDUCE the effectiveness of the skill!
If you use the 2nd formula, it's +24 Armor and +12% Evasion. Still reduced. and this is only if you continue to put all your points into Agi and Int. If you don't do that, the values drop even more sharply.
I would propose that using any formula with a denominator of Level is going to be flawed in this way. For that reason, I will take a look at a possible alternative formula that doesn't fall victim to "the higher level you get, the weaker the skill gets". I'll edit it into this reply shortly.
Edit:
I would propose a formula, for the following reasons:
-I like the notion of giving more weight to Intelligence, rather than Agility. Agility improves many different things on the Monk, including Critical hit %, Armor, Attack Power, and Attack Speed. Intelligence only governs Spellpower, which is helpful in casts. I think that the Monk's brains should be what convert into his special Steel Body.
-Denominator of (Level) is a bad idea.
I propose the following formula, instead:
Bonus armor = [(1.3I + A)/20]2, where I = Intelligence, and A = Agility. Also written as:
{[(1.3 * Int) + Agi]/20}2.
This would give 30% more weight to Intelligence rather than Agility.
Bonus evasion = [(1.5I + A)/24]2.
This would make the Monk's brains factor in even further to Evasion (and I believe Intelligence = Perception = this makes sense for a Monk).
Utilizing the Level 35 'optimal' numbers from before (including stats for Constitution being used), let's plug in the 45 Int/44 Agi options from before:
[(1.3(45) + (44))/20]2
=[102.5/20]2
=(5.125)2
=+26 Armor. A nerf from before, and +1 armor on potentially-your new formula.
Evasion would be +21%. A significant loss from before, but still leaving the Monk with over 40% Evasion, including the aforementioned gear.
If we tried the 18 Int/9 Agi option from my original post, we'd see the same +26 Armor/+21 Evasion. If we maxed Agi, however, we'd get +25 Armor/+20 Evasion. A decrease, which is more than we currently have, or your formula would propose. Plus, Intelligence will continue to make a larger impact as you increase it. Maxing Int over Agi, assuming no base stat gains before Level 40, would result in 29 Armor/24 Evasion versus 28 Armor/22 Evasion. It's not a huge difference, but neither is the existing one. Nor your new one.
Level 40, having +29 Armor and +24% Evasion (Rather than the current +32 Armor/+48% Evasion, or your proposed +28 Armor/+14% Evasion with maxed Agility), seems much more appropriate. In fact, you'd be looking at roughly 45 or 46% evasion, which seems much fairer than the current 70-odd % evasion.
If you need any help with number balancings or formulas, I'm always willing to help. I'm actually quite good with numbers and systems, having built several in the past, including games.
Anyway, just my two cents. Could you also please answer whether or not Soul Strike/Crippling Curse get the bonus +Threat from Steel Body?
Thanks for this analysis... I will think over your idea and see what I can do.
Basicly, the level reduction is neccesary, as if the spell increases linear, highend gear would make it overpowered and it would be to weak in lower levels. If the spell gets decreased exponentially, the increase of gain in higher point dumps would be to weak.
I actually had a lot of trouble balancing steel body...
I want people to get benefit of both agi and int, but at the same time want to encourage people to actually stat both stats, not just agi.
For the Celestial Zeal ability of the crusader, I think this is very nicely done, but I obviously failed for the monk. I checked the numbers for level 50 monks only ... guess that was the problem.
However, remember one thing: Noone will ever only stat both agi AND int ... as you clearly need cons as the game progresses. So you should always base calculations on realistic values.
Thanks for this analysis... I will think over your idea and see what I can do.
Basicly, the level reduction is neccesary, as if the spell increases linear, highend gear would make it overpowered and it would be to weak in lower levels. If the spell gets decreased exponentially, the increase of gain in higher point dumps would be to weak.
I actually had a lot of trouble balancing steel body...
I want people to get benefit of both agi and int, but at the same time want to encourage people to actually stat both stats, not just agi.
For the Celestial Zeal ability of the crusader, I think this is very nicely done, but I obviously failed for the monk. I checked the numbers for level 50 monks only ... guess that was the problem.
However, remember one thing: Noone will ever only stat both agi AND int ... as you clearly need cons as the game progresses. So you should always base calculations on realistic values.
Actually, these are values that take into account CONSTITUTION. 8 points, as per my original post, gives 460 HP with current full gear, which is sufficient for the time being.
Yes, there is the potential for higher-end dungeons to require more. But this is the problem with your formula: If I spend 2-4 levels putting points into CON rather than INT/AGI, my armor and evasion will drop. How does this make sense?
A linear growth based on a reasonable end-value would probably be more realistic. A new Monk, with relatively limited gear and stats, shouldn't expect to have the same scale of power that a high-end Monk does. It will grow as he grows and learns.
Also, with your current formula, you almost completely remove the need for Intelligence, making the Monk just another Agility hero, with a minimal Int involvement. Agility improves his attacks, speed, evasion (hidden stat gain? Tricky Zwieb.... but not tricky enough), Criticals... Just like an Assassin then, just without the Strength, I guess.
And I do agree that the Crusade ability seems fairly balanced. 20% Spellpower added onto each attack is somewhat weak, at the moment (It's essentially +20% of Int, as you have no SP Mail gear, and who would trade Searing Gloves or Ring of shielding for Arcane Seal? The damage is better with Searing, and the tanking better with RoS), but hopefully new gear will improve that.
Two final questions for you:
1) Monks' Steel Body give +100% Threat for elemental damage. Is this only physical attack/rune-derived Elemental damage, or does it include Soul Strike and Crippling Curse?
2) If a Crusader had both Searing Gloves or Phoenix on, and Crusade, can both Fire and Holy damage proc? Would the overall damage be Fire or Holy? Or Both? Would one override the other and prevent the damage?
Land this 100% dmg is from soul strike and curse. I have tryed this with my monk. The agro generated by this 2 spells while with steel body is a lot bigger than while casting without having it.
About the crusader currently if you have Seering and Phoenix they both prox. Actually there is this bug that makes seering always prox while using phoenix. Not sure if that is intentional or not. I guess it will be no problem to have crusade proxing too
P.S If you need Hunter Or Cruz for some of you tests tell me and i can help you
Actually, these are values that take into account CONSTITUTION. 8 points, as per my original post, gives 460 HP with current full gear, which is sufficient for the time being.
Yes, there is the potential for higher-end dungeons to require more. But this is the problem with your formula: If I spend 2-4 levels putting points into CON rather than INT/AGI, my armor and evasion will drop. How does this make sense?
Hmm ... remember that higher leveled enemies should be able to "hit better". That's why it makes sense. The gain of Steel Body should be rebalanced, I agree, but if you don't add agi and int from time to time then yes, the use will drop. The benefit of Steel body has two components: a percentual and a linear damage reduction. Maybe we should create two entirely different formulaes for those components. It doesn't make sense that the amount of armor you get drops as you level up. However, it DOES make sense that the evasion isn't linear. It really shouldn't, as 20% evasion is always 20% less white damage, on lower AND higher levels.
This is something that will always be hard to balance ... unless I will finally add a new "chance to hit" stat ... which could be the way to handle it.
Two final questions for you:
1) Monks' Steel Body give +100% Threat for elemental damage. Is this only physical attack/rune-derived Elemental damage, or does it include Soul Strike and Crippling Curse?
2) If a Crusader had both Searing Gloves or Phoenix on, and Crusade, can both Fire and Holy damage proc? Would the overall damage be Fire or Holy? Or Both? Would one override the other and prevent the damage?
I could be off based on the Base stat gain. I don't know what Base stats a Monk will have at Level 30 or 40, so I will utilize the numbers from Level 35. I imagine this could effect Str, Agi and Int by 1-3 points each. If this is what you're looking for, you can open up your Editor and see the stat gain better than I can (Protected map). Plus, I didn't map stat gains in this game, since I don't want to make big all-inclusive guides ;-)
This gear is based on my original Monk post. Maxed D3 gear.
Level 30: Max stat is 15. Assuming 15/15 (No Con), we'd have:
26+5 Str, 35+14 Agi, 35+8 Int
Or
31 Str, 49 Agi, 43 Int.
More realistically, take 8 points for Con still, and you could split it 11/11 or go 15/7. For:
31 Str, 45(+ 4) Agi, 39(+ 4) Int
Edit: Took a look through my old screenshots.... Not 100% sure on my stat placement, prior to my stat revamp at Level 33, but here's what I had:
(At level 35, I have 17 Agi, 10 Int, and 8 Con in placed points)
Level 35 Monk base: = 26, 20, 20
Level 34 Monk base: 26, 35, 30 = 26, 19, 20
Level 33 Monk base: 25, 34, 29 (25, 28, 29, +6 Con) [-1 All] = 25, 18, 19
Level 32 Monk base: 24, 26, 29 [-1 Str, -1 Agi] = 24, 17, 19
Level 31 Monk base: 23, 25, 29 [-1 Str] = 23, 17, 19
Level 30 Monk base: 23, 23, 28 [-1 Agi, -1 Int] = 23, 16, 18
As best I can tell, a Monk will have had 23 Str, 16 Agi and 18 Int at level 30.
Not sure at Level 40. I would assume, based on similar growth, of 29 Str, 24 Agi, and 22 Int.
With gear that adds +5, +14, and +8.
Numbers play:
23+5, 16+14, 18+8 at level 30
Or 28, 30, 26
29+5, 24+14, 22+8 at level 40
Or 34, 38, 30
At level 30, assuming 8 points for Con, you have +11/+11, or +15/+7. Let's assume maxing values of Int:
34, 37, 41
At level 40, you'd get +10 more points. So +20/+12 or +16/+16. Assuming Int:
34, 49, 50
My formula would give:
Level 30:
+20 Armor, +16% evasion
Level 40:
+32 Armor, +26% evasion
Yours, assuming the same numbers, would give:
Level 30:
+21 Armor, +10% evasion
Level 40:
+26 Armor, +13% evasion
Unless you manipulate Agi in your favour for your formula (since it's worth more), in which case you'd get:
Level 30: 34, 37, 41 becomes: 34, 45, 33
At level 40, you'd get +10 more points. So +20/+12 or +16/+16. Assuming Int:
Level 40: 34, 49, 50 becomes: 34, 57, 42
Giving:
Level 30:
+26 Armor, +13% evasion
Level 40:
+31 Armor, +15% evasion
So, your formula gives higher values at lower levels, and people can almost completely ignore Intelligence, maxing Agility just like Thieves and Rangers.
The values are similar higher up. I imagine at Level 50, your values will be lower than mine, but by Level 50 I'd think you'd have earned more. Plus, the formula still shows that if you spend a level or two adding Con instead of Int/Agi, your Armor and Evasion will actually drop. In fact, when you level up, your stats will drop. Which doesn't make sense.
Lastly, I agree that Evasion could grow at an altered rate.... But my formula could already take that into account.
30 Agi/30 Int = 3.1252 = 9% evasion (rounded)
35 Agi/35 Int = 3.64583-2 = 13% evasion (rounded)
40 Agi/40 Int = 4.16-2 = 17% evasion (rounded)
Why not make it a square root, to ensure an asymptotal relationship? In other words, approaching a limit, but never meeting it:
Let's say you want to max Evasion at +30% at Level 50. Assuming Level 50 stats are 35, 32, 26 (+5, +14, +8 for gear, = 40, 46, 34 before stat placement) (based on similar growth from 30 to 40), let's say we keep my Armor formula (which makes sense, is simple, and puts emphasis on Int), and for Evasion....
+25 is max stat at Level 50. So, assuming 8 Con again, for some semblance of realism, and you get 42 points to work with. Even split, just for ease's sake here, gives +21 to each agi and Int, for 40, 67, 55. ...
Playing with numbers, here. Square root is the way to go, just balancing it here.
Wouldn't we want a skill that gives a solid low level buff with diminishing returns? Is there any way to sort a system that would allow steel body to get better, but not by much?
Square root comes with one big disadvantage: the more stats you have, the less effect they have. In this case I could also make Steel Body give a fixed value based on level scaling...
I now thought of a formula based on the base stat gain.
Let's say as long as you don't specc neither int or agi, when you level up, your stats stay the same.
Monks gain 0,4 int and 0,5 agi per level without having to specc any point into the stat skills.
In this case, the formula could be like this:
(0.4*Int + 0.5*Agi) - level = (class base stats, which is 5,5 in this case)
If we value int a little over agi, it could be like
(0.8*Int + 0.5*Agi) - level = armor
In this case, 1 point of int will always give 0,8 armor, whereas 1 point of agi will always give 0,5 agi. However, this could grow overpowered very fast with highend gear...
Assuming new gear brings Agi to 80 (not sure if it will) by 50, and Int to 80 by 50, too:
Add + 10 Int for -10 Agi, to 70/90...
√(4A + 8I) = 2√(A + 2I) = Evasion (I simplified it down)
+31% Evasion. And even if you added another +20 to both, you'd get +35% evasion. Negligible gain for such a huge stat gain.
However, at lower levels, and using my Max-Int values for Level 30 and 40:
Level 30: 34, 37, 41 = +21% evasion
Level 40: 34, 49, 50 = +24% evasion
There is essentially a basic +15% evasion, just for this skill being used, but the growth dimishes rapidly.
The bigger benefit would be the +Armor for Steel Body, which is what makes a Monk a tank. And while it may outpower a Crusader by a touch, at this point, future armor will soon mess that up, too.
So, my overal suggestion, taking everything into account:
Armor = [(1.3I + A)/20]2
Evasion = 2√(A + 2I)
I see we posted simultaneously (lol). If the Armor formula is a little too big for high end (assuming the 90 Int/70 Agi from before, it gives +87 Armor. I don't know if this will be high for Level 50, though.... hard to judge, at this point), then you can always change the /20 to /24 or /22 or /25 or some such.
I think the Armor formula works fine for the time being. Similar, though slightly weaker than we currently have, with actual emphasis on Intelligence over Agility.
The Evasion would be grossly weakened compared to now, but would basically add, depending on gear, +15% to +30% Evasion, altogether. Yes, more gear would produce lesser results, but remember this is ONE SKILL, and that gear with basic +Evasion and other stats will be more valuable than just 1 skill, too.
I have decided that the evasion gain of steel body should not be scaling, as it is percentual ... and percentual stats scale anyway. However, I added a small bonus to int to it, to make int worth getting.
That's why I have decided to change the formulaes like this:
I have decided that the evasion gain of steel body should not be scaling, as it is percentual ... and percentual stats scale anyway. However, I added a small bonus to int to it, to make int worth getting.
That's why I have decided to change the formulaes like this:
{(Level / 4) + (Agi / 10) + (Int / 5)}, and then rounded down, or would each portion be rounded as you go? I imagine it's the end-result rounded, but I figured I'd double check.
I'll remake the section based on that. I'd also like to propose the visual description of the stats be simplified for people:
so my monk will have 26 armor +22 base armor, totally 48 armor.
And evasion will be 25%
Actually not bad but i will try to make a formula with a limit. I ll be at work but lets see if i can. (and if i remember to make one )
Lol. Strength only gives Armor Piercing and some Critical damage for hunters. Make sure your total Strength is even, for Armor Piercing, and make sure you have enough Con to stay alive =p
Very nice thread and a huge amount of work that you obviously put into this...
A thing I need to correct, however:
The critdamage modifier doesn't affect spells, only 'white' attacks. Spells got a 150% flat. However, the impact on your calculations should be neglectable.
The second thing is not really a correction, but something you should take into account when calculating crusader damage output:
Crucify is 3 second channeling ... which means you can't attack during that time, basicly sacrificing 1,5-2 'white' attacks. Assuming you'd use crucify on both builds anyway, it doesn't make a difference. However, it does make a difference when you decide not to use crucify in your spell cycle (i.e. because of single target boss).
Very nice thread and a huge amount of work that you obviously put into this...
A thing I need to correct, however:
The critdamage modifier doesn't affect spells, only 'white' attacks. Spells got a 150% flat. However, the impact on your calculations should be neglectable.
The second thing is not really a correction, but something you should take into account when calculating crusader damage output:
Crucify is 3 second channeling ... which means you can't attack during that time, basicly sacrificing 1,5-2 'white' attacks. Assuming you'd use crucify on both builds anyway, it doesn't make a difference. However, it does make a difference when you decide not to use crucify in your spell cycle (i.e. because of single target boss).
Gratzi for these technical tips. The fact that Crit mods don't affect spell damage affects both Sorcerer and Crusader logs (making the Critical Sorc even more useless, and a Strength Sorc completely pointless), but luckily it doesn't change much (and doesn't affect outcomes).
I am aware of the channelling portion of Crucify. With the Strength build, against a single-target, it's more effective to just beat on the foe. However, with the damage of the Int build, it's actually worthwhile to cast Crucify when you're able. This just further widens the gap between Strength and Int Crusaders, showing that Int is definitely the way to build him, at the moment (contrary to the typical Str/Con damager, like a Zerker. Very clever way, and balanced, to create this polar difference).
However, one thing you should probably mention is the fact that crucify requires a lot of mana to be cast. Assuming the 75 max Mana from your gear compilation, you will be limited to like 7 or 8 casts of crucify per fight without any mana gains from potions. On very long fights, this might be a benefit of Str crusaders not having to rely on this cast.
Yet again, thanks for all your work you put into this. This really helps me alot balancing out the different builds and gear.
I will add more flavour to crit for sorcerers in the future and also possibly buff the impact of Str to Crusaders in terms of single target performance compared to Int crusaders.
One question while you're around, Zwieb... What is the damage range for spells? They seem to vary greatly, and Spellpower x 3 is not very consistent. Is it +/- 20% or some such?
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