[Campaign] The Dark Below

What needs to be improved in this campaign?

  • The Story

    Votes: 18 48.6%
  • The Terrain

    Votes: 4 10.8%
  • The Spells

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Items

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Gameplay

    Votes: 9 24.3%
  • Something else..

    Votes: 4 10.8%
  • This campaign is bad, call it off!

    Votes: 2 5.4%

  • Total voters
    37
Level 23
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
Messages
1,196
You have to consider the fact that WoW and WC3 are played from different perspectives. In WoW you usually play from third person and you see stuff that is in front of your character. So aside from the ground texture you would see mountains, hills, the sea etc. in WC3 everything is seen from above. Changes in terrain height don‘t appear as drastic. Most of the variation must come from the texture snd doodads within a limited view, unless it‘s for a cinematic.
 
Played the map, looks ok, but maybe there are too many optional quests, I barely discovered any since main quest objectives were much closer.

You have to consider the fact that WoW and WC3 are played from different perspectives. In WoW you usually play from third person and you see stuff that is in front of your character. So aside from the ground texture you would see mountains, hills, the sea etc. in WC3 everything is seen from above. Changes in terrain height don‘t appear as drastic. Most of the variation must come from the texture snd doodads within a limited view, unless it‘s for a cinematic.

Who were you replying to? Speaking of terrain, there should be different textures under trees and rocks, like some sparse vegetation underneath, like some sort of foundation, trees under plain dirt look awkward.
 
Level 3
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
27
So, as with "Battle for Azeroth" I actually proceded with doing a video on this campaign demo as well, having apparently from what I read recieved latest version - which is good, as that probably helps you out on this project as well.

I will do this time some story critique as well, as it kinda interlinks with the gameplay and critique, I also had with Azshara in the "Battle for Azeroth"-campaign.

Gameplay - Mission 1 (as there is only one mission so far)

First the positive things, compared to Battle for Azeroth:
+ read out dialoque outside of cutscenes is partly shown with visible text by sides of the narrator - if this would be applied to ingame dialoque as well, this would improve quite a lot of the campaign's quality as well.
+ functional AI - although it is a simple one, this one worked out quite well and even rebuild structures, when they were destroyed. Huuuge improvement from BfA-campaign demo, as it was one of my major critique points
Bonus points: The AI pinging to which location the allied hero moves is briliant as fuck and I would love to see more campaigns doing it that way. Keep on going with this idea!
+ the hero choice in the beginning is neat - sadly you choose an NPC hero, but it's better than nothing.
+ terrain kinda reflects the Blasted Lands from WoW although it could need some improvement here and there
+ Naga techtree works out okay for the majority - better than the classic one.
+ Voice acting as usual


However that would be so far it from the positive points, which raised my interest. As much as the campaign did one entire mission more enjoyable than most of the 'BfA'-missions, there were some huge flaws, where I definitly recommend you to fix them, some being quite obvious.

- For the first mission and two main missions of which one is just a 'go to this position' quest, the map is way too large.
I get the idea, that the player should realize that he enters a complete re-map of the Blasted Lands-zone from WoW in Warcraft 3, but everything south of the Dark Portal serves no purpose to the actual mission.
It's just a vast map with the problem that you run from time to time into creeps and by chance enemy troops.
By accident I even found a Dreadmaul ogre camp, which served no real purpose despite the ogres being faction alligned. Given the size of this map, it would help to either reduce the size of it or to implement a zoom command, similiar to how maps like Azeroth Wars and Lordaeron the Aftermath handle it.
(by typing in -far you can zoom out + if the feature is implemented the camera should start zoomed out to show the player that there is a cam command most likely)

Other than that, making the area of active questing smaller will also make it easier to get the scouting and questing faster done than you would normally need. Which brings us to the second major problem of the first mission:

- There is barely any gold.
Naga are probably one of the most costworthy campaign races in Warcraft 3 and in this campaign that's the case as well. With a good economy though you can bypass this problem however.
Yet there is no chance in building up this kind of economy, as the campaign mission lacks goldmines in good spots by a lot.
Given the supposed duration of the campaign with all side missions, it's not doable unless you kill off both enemy camps, get the goldmines in the center and the enemy camp while just ignoring Medivh for the rest of the time afterwards - and at this point, there is no need to build up your base anymore, since the main purpose of having a base on your own is to destroy the enemy base.

Thus, if the map is supposed to stay this way, it definitly needs more goldmines and an increased ammount of gold within already existing ones.
Otherwise your ally ends up stealing your gold when his goldmine collapses while both the Alliance and the Horde goldmine have also dried out at this point already.

Adding more goldmines would also provide better strategical options than just defending one potential goldmine in the middle of the map, where the Horde AI is destined to rampage through. It would probably even give you a reason to destroy the bloody dreadmaul camp as by closer inspection there is no real reason why you should kill off all the ogres there.

- there is no lumbermill
Like in 'BfA' campaign, the Naga race has no lumbermill building, which serves as a cheap lumber dropoff point, other than the main building.
As with the gold this will result in major problems as the wood area around the main base will drain faster over the next hour than one might expect. Apart from buffing the trees in terms of health, it would be helpful to grant the Naga upgrade building the ability to drop off lumber as the orcish warmill in classic does.
That way you don't have to build overprized mainbuildings everywhere on the map, which aren't even worth upgrading, as going to Tier II solves most of your initial problems with Naga

-overprized items
a healing potion alone costs 400 gold, thus making items in TDB worse than in BfA - you should definitly copy the item system from your other campaign, as I didn't even bother looking into the shop once I realized that everything inside was overprized - I had a gold problem already and the item shop only increased it

- where are the side missions?
It showed 4 side missions and I found none of them despite having explored 50% of the map for over half an hour before I decided to just give a fuck about them and destroyed the main objectives, as I was already running out of gold ^^
From what I can read they were presumingly south of the Naga base, so probably it would have been smarter to place the side missions closer to the Naga base.
If the side missions are even necessary! By going with the main quest, I had no problem to level up Azshara to Level 4 which was for this mission the max level - once I reached that level, there was no need for me to bother more about potential expierience I missed.

- The Dark Portal indicator shows the wrong location
Once you complete the main mission, the second mission kicks in and pings a supposed position of the Dark Portal - if you actually go to the area of the ping, there is nothing - the real location of the Dark Portal is far more south east.
I know, if I would have memorized the Blasted Lands map from WoW more, I probably would have known or whatever, but I searched roughly 15 minutes until I found it. For a search quest, which even supposedly reveals you the location, that's pretty much unnecessary.



So far the most major flaws I found, where I hope that they get fixed as otherwise they ruin the gameplay of the mission completely. This is also the main reason why I voted "Gameplay" on your poll, as it's the biggest problem Mission 1 of 'The Dark Below'-campaign features.
Future missions should definitly feature smaller maps, which are easier filled with actual content.


Lore issues and advices

With the biggest problems being listed up, let's delve deeper into the actual portrayal of the campaign and it's story line.
Proloque shows so far the best piece of Story line, as it directly references "War of the Ancients" and went partially a similiar approach as the most recent Warbringer Episode featuring Azshara and N'Zoth.
Thus better making the critique section here quite fast:

- I think the dominant speech of N'Zoth is so far more or less okay (although some dialoque lines + sequences could be improved like for example the transformation sequence, which looks a bit underwhelming), but Azshara seems way too much out of character, compared to how she was portrayed in the actual lore.
In my opinion she gave in too fast to N'Zoth in terms of dialoque as she's all like "Oh no, my empire is gone and I have no choice but to submit to N'Zoth" - "Yes I swear allegiance to N'Zoth"
which seems for me too sudden and unfitting for her.
After all she just made a bad deal with the Legion, so even if she had no choice in resisting N'Zoth's transformation powers, she shouldn't give up that easily and at least stand up in some way to him.
Sylvanas after all showed Arthas nontheless her hatred despite being enslaved by the Lichking - it would be similiar with Azshara.

Other than that though the ending of the proloque was okay when the Naga rose to the surface. Reminded me a lot of how the Naga were introduced in the official TFT campaign, thus appreciating the reference.

As for Mission 1:

- Azshara being a hero leads already to a big problem from a lore point of perspective.
Even before she was transformed, she was known as a master of the Arcane while even the commanders of the Burning Legion could hardly rival her. Mannoroth alone realized that Azshara was probably more powerful than him - and that's not easily said, since Mannoroth is basically fourth in line of the Burning Legion's main command, being sworn to only Archimonde, Kil'jaeden and Sargeras by technical means!
Thus, having an Azshara campaign could only work out in two ways, if you want to do it right:

° The player plays one of her commanders, while Azshara either appears in cutscenes or is displayed ingame as a pretty much unkillable NPC hero, who does just her thing while you are slithering along the lines. Here would be some wonderful candidates as alternatve hero choices, while still keeping the hero's skill set:
Athissa
Lady Naz'jar
Mistress Sassz'ine

Those three are next to Lady Vashj her most memorable high-ranked commanders, whom she trusted with important tasks like capturing Neptulon or obtaining the Tidestone of Golganeth.
Seeing quests from their perspective can work out as well.

°The player gets to play Azshara, but she's featured as an insanely strong hero, who can hardly be killed by any means - thus her abilities might be over the top and kill regular stuff faster than you might actually think.
In that case you would feature her in probably only 1-2 missions, just to show off how strong she actually is, before changing perspective to other heroes, either on the Naga side or even on the Naga-opposing side.

The custom campaign 'Rise of the Lich King' pulled off a similiar thing, where you get to play as Arthas Menethil himself after he became the Lichking, while you slaughter pretty much everything within your path, getting a brief idea of what abilities he wields.
Within the mission itself, there's a twist though, as you change the character while Arthas serves from this point on as the antagonist of the entire campaign.


Or you choose to pick both of these solutions while toying around with it. It could eventually lead to a more believable story line as well, since there aren't many challenges from lore perspective, where Azshara has difficulties in overcoming them - her underlings though might have these problems and they might act somewhere, where Azshara isn't currently available while she wants to see a mission achieved by her minions nontheless.


- For a massive Naga invasion in which Azshara participates, the first mission is quite underwhelming, as it's just the clash of 4 bases, which send out few units for attacks, while having decent defences.
The mission might feel more important, if there would be more Horde and Alliance camps on the way to destroy, while also giving the conflict more magnitude. The mission might probably even work out if the Naga camps are completely under NPC controll, while the player only controlls Azshara with her nearly godlike arcane powers, which she utilizes to crush the massive armies, which approach her position.
That way Azshara can be introduced in a fast-paced first mission, showing off her power, while it gives us roughly an idea into what direction the campaign might be heading, once the camps are destroyed and the Naga do, whatever they attempted to do in the first place (probably building up Azshara's empire on the surface, I guess).

- Medivh's intervention is... questionable.
Apart from myself asking, why Medivh is always the plot device in each campaign I so far played instead of Khadgar, who pretty much is the confirmed guardian of Azeroth since Warlords of Draenor (while before the position was more or less vacant due to Medivh being nothing more than a ghost within the timeways currently),
I also rather question why he would even attempt to help Azshara,
the one individual who nearly destroyed the entirety of Azeroth in her greed, just because she made a pact with the Legion in order to summon none other than Sargeras himself to Azeroth.
And by what methods anyways?

Keep in mind that we're talking about the Old Gods, unnatural beings which are described as cthuloid parasites, whom even the Titans feared as they couldn't be killed off permanently without destroying a good portion of Azeroth itself. The Well of Eternity is for example such a wound, as it was the place where Y'Shaaraj was destroyed for good (while even then few remnants of him had survived).
And due to the Infinite Dragonflight + several Old God encounters we know as well, that each of the Old Gods had a good understanding for the future of Azeroth, especially N'zoth whose thousand-year old shemes are build up to the point that they are still ongoing in actual WoW.
Thus it means, that N'Zoth would be prepared for a betrayal from sides of Azshara.
The scenario itself might not be unlikely, but keep in mind that we're talking about a manipulative Old God, who even tricked Deathwing into becoming his faithful slave without the Earthwarden even realizing it.
And although Azshara is higher ranked than Deathwing on the potential power table, she's neither free of the Old Gods corruption. Not even the Titan Keepers, created by the Pantheon were spared from their corruption.
Thus, even if Azshara would even get the idea of working against N'Zoth, it would seem like she came up with it, but it would be still an event, which N'Zoth would have forseen as Azshara is one of his key minions. Therefore even if she thinks of betraying him, he probably will bend it without her knowledge that she would still work for the grand sheme he wishes to achieve, while he would sacrifice her, if he has to.

Thus, how is Medivh even supposed to 'cure' this? Being a former Guardian of Azeroth doesn't make him almighty - he's powerful, but only to a certain limit like all the Guardians were.
Wheras the Old Gods are outside the circle and are still pretty much alive, even with C'Thun and Yogg-Saron being seemingly slayed.

So yeah, as you can see - I feel like the direction the campaign is taking with the end of the First Mission kinda is a problem in itself, given that it goes into an unlikely direction from a regular lore point of view.
If it's all custom lore - fine.
I guess then it is okay-ish, I guess - yet it might make the project less atmospheric as people would expect it to be, especially when they know the Warcraft lore quite well.

In the end you must know whether you can live with that or if you go on a different approach with the project after reading the feedback. A custom story with only slight references to the main universe can also have its charme. Custom Campaigns often tend to go into this direction, some more successful than others, so who knows. ^^


tl;dr

- First mission is way too large in terms of the map size and rescources should get increased/item prizes decreased, rest so far ok, story line might need some improvement.

Other than that, I will also link this time the recording of the playthrough, which might help as well to emphasize the problems of the first campaign mission, other than that - my job is done so far. ^-^

 
Level 23
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Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,872
General:
Voice acting is... kinda unequal. Ah well, not a fatal problem.
Azshara has no attack voicelines.
Storage pools should serve as lumber dropoff and their tooltip should reflect this.
Azhara's abilities are... I dunno, kinda lackluster. Will these be updated?
Aura of Empowerment doesn't increase anyone's damage.
Naga UI stops just short of the right of the screen.
When the game is paused, the standard commands (Move, Attack, Stop etc.) revert to their original icons.
The blue backdrop for tooltips makes text harder to read (especially hotkeys).
Alarm voices are human instead of Naga.
Spiked Shell icon looks the same whether or not it's researched.
Terrain is well-done overall, though there are some places where doodads are floating midair (for example, the south entrance of the blue base in the first map has rock pillars not holding on to anything).
The +125 gold coins model is sometimes hard to right-click.
There are several instances of incorrectly punctuated sentences during cutscenes. They're voiced so it's not too hard to understand, but it's still glaring.


The Pact:
We don't get to see the Well exploding?
Maybe have some more special effects gathering around the night elf corpses before they transform.
The narrator's line should be "at the cost of turning them into hideous monsters, she managed to save her people.", currently it's saying the transformation was the intended result and their living was the unfortunate side-effect.


First mission:
Loading screen should be less grainy.
Maybe make the allies a different color, they're hard to see on the minimap.
In the first part of the map, allies go after other hostile bases like the purple orcs in the south or even creep camps.
The allies gutted the human base, but never went after the orcs.
Quest updates (such as destroying a base) should also be displayed as a message.
Picked up a crystallized demon soul (before meeting Loramus) and got a message saying Loramus was waiting for me, but this didn't show up in the sidequests. Maybe spawn the soul-dropping warlock only after you get the quest (as with Teremus).
Sidequest destinations should be regularly pinged and visible in FoW.
When sidequest messages appear, the F is missing from Fail conditions.
Dark Portal should be visible in FoW.
I had no problem with gold on this mission (even with the allies taking out creeps), but the mines should still have more than the standard 12500 each.
AIs should mine 1 gold at a time.
Most rock formations can be walked through, such as the ones north of where Teremus appears.
Teremus is undead.
Got an "achievement failed" message after the allies killed a Hellish Guard.
Although killing the Deadly Usher in what I'm pretty sure was less than a minute, all that dropped was an item that appears completely useless.
After bringing the clam and club to the smith, the "quest completed" message kept looping back (approximately every ten seconds, and even during the final cutscene), including the quest updated and completed sounds. I'm not sure if the warlock says anything on completing his quest because it might have been drowned out by the blacksmith.
Several invisible walls in places that don't look unpassable such as around the Dark Portal and the swamp/red lands border.
Medhiv keeps the ? during the cutscene.
Quest rewards are all over the place. Finishing the blacksmith lets you pay 100 gold for a +3 Int item, while finishing the warlock gets you a +6 int for free.
As has been mentioned, there should be a way to get around the map faster.

Overall, playable but quite a few improvements to be made. I await the next installment.
 
Last edited:
Thanks a LOT, @Fawful and @cleavinghammer that was the best and most solid feedback I ever got!

NEW FIXES IN NEXT UPDATE.
- Will fix quest updates
- Will fix Loramus' Crystalized Soul
- Will add pings to side quests
- Will fix the missing F
- Fixing gold problems
- Will add pathing blockers to Rock Formations
- Will fix the looping at the Blacksmith
- Will fix the ''?'' at Medivh
- Will add speeding runes
- Will add a lumber mill
- Will fix Dark Portal indicator
- Will fix the overprized items
- Will add more variety of heroes and do more consultations next time.
- Will fix Spiked Shells

NOTE
- The Deathly Usher is the reason you got a failed achievement @cleavinghammer you need to kill him under 1 minute of engaging him.
- The Deathly Usher's drop is meant to unlock the last bonus mission of the campaign.
- The spells of Azshara will be fixed and updated to @xISLx 's spells

ALSO
I will consult more people for the storyline.
 
Level 5
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
119
- Azshara being a hero leads already to a big problem from a lore point of perspective.
Even before she was transformed, she was known as a master of the Arcane while even the commanders of the Burning Legion could hardly rival her. Mannoroth alone realized that Azshara was probably more powerful than him - and that's not easily said, since Mannoroth is basically fourth in line of the Burning Legion's main command, being sworn to only Archimonde, Kil'jaeden and Sargeras by technical means!
Thus, having an Azshara campaign could only work out in two ways, if you want to do it right:

° The player plays one of her commanders, while Azshara either appears in cutscenes or is displayed ingame as a pretty much unkillable NPC hero, who does just her thing while you are slithering along the lines. Here would be some wonderful candidates as alternatve hero choices, while still keeping the hero's skill set:
Athissa
Lady Naz'jar
Mistress Sassz'ine

Those three are next to Lady Vashj her most memorable high-ranked commanders, whom she trusted with important tasks like capturing Neptulon or obtaining the Tidestone of Golganeth.
Seeing quests from their perspective can work out as well.

°The player gets to play Azshara, but she's featured as an insanely strong hero, who can hardly be killed by any means - thus her abilities might be over the top and kill regular stuff faster than you might actually think.
In that case you would feature her in probably only 1-2 missions, just to show off how strong she actually is, before changing perspective to other heroes, either on the Naga side or even on the Naga-opposing side.

The custom campaign 'Rise of the Lich King' pulled off a similiar thing, where you get to play as Arthas Menethil himself after he became the Lichking, while you slaughter pretty much everything within your path, getting a brief idea of what abilities he wields.
Within the mission itself, there's a twist though, as you change the character while Arthas serves from this point on as the antagonist of the entire campaign.


Or you choose to pick both of these solutions while toying around with it. It could eventually lead to a more believable story line as well, since there aren't many challenges from lore perspective, where Azshara has difficulties in overcoming them - her underlings though might have these problems and they might act somewhere, where Azshara isn't currently available while she wants to see a mission achieved by her minions nontheless.

This is one of those posts, I agree with. Having Azshara as a hero is like having Kil'jaeden as a hero. She is one of the strongest beings on Azeroth, heck, I bet she can kill Lich King 10 times. My point is, playing Azshara in her lore form gives you potential to destroy the bases in like 10 minutes without any units. Personally, I think you should make missions where you play as Azshara, like 2-3 of them, then the rest are from her commanders. It would make it more amazing and lore wise.
 
Level 23
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,872
The lieutenant hero isn't a bad idea, you could have several maps happening at the same time with different heroes and bring them all back in the finale.

Maybe have the first level set just before the Sundering where Azshara is fully (over)powered, letting you plow through waves of enemies, and once you reach a hidden kill limit, the Well explodes and the cinematic plays.
 
Last edited:
Level 21
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Mar 28, 2015
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2,433
This is one of those posts, I agree with. Having Azshara as a hero is like having Kil'jaeden as a hero. She is one of the strongest beings on Azeroth, heck, I bet she can kill Lich King 10 times. My point is, playing Azshara in her lore form gives you potential to destroy the bases in like 10 minutes without any units. Personally, I think you should make missions where you play as Azshara, like 2-3 of them, then the rest are from her commanders. It would make it more amazing and lore wise.

My thoughts exactly. Azshara is a Demigod. As a Highborne, she was around the same level as Archimonde and Kil'jaeden and these two were some of the most powerful beings in the Warcraft universe. It is up to imagination just how stronger she got after turning into a naga and after spending ten thousand years in the depths.

If we are to use her as hero, in my opinion, there are two options:
-She either gets weakened and will only slowly regain her former power throughout the campaign
OR
-The foes we will face have to be very powerful in order not to make it one-sided

This first mission could be us using Azshara in all her full power and then she loses most of her power. Kind of like Arthas in "Legacy of the Damned"
 
Level 21
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2,433
Maybe the Old Gods influencing her, making lose her abilities?

The Old Gods themselves are incredibly powerful. I doubt they would need to weaken Azshara to make her useful.

During the Cataclysm, they empowered Deathwing a lot, as not even the other Aspects could wound him. And once he would lose his usefulness, they would make him impale himself. So, I find no reason to make Azshara weaker.
 
Level 3
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27
No, as in, their constant presence in her mind would drive her insane if she wasn't devoting a lot of brainpower to keeping them out, meaning less powerful spells.
They probably achieved that already or at least did so carefully. While I guess that it doesn't influence the abilities of magic wielders too much, if the Old Gods are empowering them.
I mean, just look at Cho'gall. Instable as fuck, mutated by a lot, but he's a powerful mage and a beefy ogre at the same time nontheless.

In fact it can be argued that madness probably would even enhance Azshara even more, as a regular sane mage would always try to channel magic in a way that he doesn't harm himself.
If this constant isn't even given, as the servant solely lives for the purpose of achieving one single goal, no matter if she dies or not, then this could lead to more reckless casting.
Although I think that Azshara might not be as heavily influenced by N'Zoth to a point where Deathwing was for example.
As we have seen in Warbringers her motivation is more settled on reclaiming her former Empire under the promise of turning it into the next Black Empire for N'Zoth. Where I think that N'Zoth probably doesn't have to influence her that much, as she is already a puppet unbeknownst to her. Azshara is probably proud enough to think that the ideas she comes up with are actually her ideas and not the ones of her master - while in fact she does exactly what he expects her to do.

Think of Azshara more as a joker card, which N'Zoth will set up when he thinks it's necessary, as she already worked for him from the shadows in previous WoW missions (capture of Neptulon for example was one major arc, which was planned for Cataclysm) - where Deathwing was a mere tool to cause the second Sundering, while bringing the End Times in some of the alternate timelines, Azshara might introduce us into a deeper plot in BfA, if she's already set up as a raid boss - and by deep I don't mean necessarily just the bottom of the ocean. :p

It's like with the Emerald Nightmare: It was seemingly cleansed in Legion at the cost of Ysera and many others, whom Xavius' underlings corrupted, but in the aftermath it seemed obvious, that this was merely a setup, where Xavius and the Rif of Aln was intentionally sacrificed in order to possibly introduce the Void into the very heart of the Nightmare somehow.

Old God plans work like a chaotic puzzle: One piece is set, another one is added, then another one adds up, then the puzzle dissolves into a new piece which fits into a far more greater puzzle, which is getting slowly completed. While even when we're close at completing the whole puzzle, we might not even know if it will be the end result.
 
Level 21
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T
In fact it can be argued that madness probably would even enhance Azshara even more, as a regular sane mage would always try to channel magic in a way that he doesn't harm himself.

I think keeping his sanity makes an individual more powerful. Losing his sanity makes him more dangerous, but not more powerful. An insane person is reckless, can be easier to deal with...

Deathwing was insane, but his actions and plots showed that he still retained most of his sanity. However, he starts to lose it during the Hour of Twilight raid and he becomes pure insanity in the final boss fight.

Although I think that Azshara might not be as heavily influenced by N'Zoth to a point where Deathwing was for example.
As we have seen in Warbringers her motivation is more settled on reclaiming her former Empire under the promise of turning it into the next Black Empire for N'Zoth. Where I think that N'Zoth probably doesn't have to influence her that much, as she is already a puppet unbeknownst to her. Azshara is probably proud enough to think that the ideas she comes up with are actually her ideas and not the ones of her master - while in fact she does exactly what he expects her to do.

Maybe. But Azshara might be more of a servant than a pawn, unlike Deathwing. Deathwing only sought to fullfill the Old Gods' goals, because he thought they would free him of his torment. Azshara, while willing to serve N'Zoth, seems to have her own agenda and will not fully dedicate herself to others' cause.

Azshara might introduce us into a deeper plot in BfA, if she's already set up as a raid boss - and by deep I don't mean necessarily just the bottom of the ocean. :p

I dearly hope she lives up to the hype and that her boss fight is amazing.
 
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I think keeping his sanity makes an individual more powerful. Losing his sanity makes him more dangerous, but not more powerful. An insane person is reckless, can be easier to deal with...

Deathwing was insane, but his actions and plots showed that he still retained most of his sanity. However, he starts to lose it during the Hour of Twilight raid and he becomes pure insanity in the final boss fight.
True, but that made him neither lose his power, did it?
Given that he dedicated his services to the Old Gods long time ago kinda indicates glimpses of madness, even if it isn't visible.
No servant of the Old Gods is free from being driven mad, as especially those, who seem to be the most sane are probably the maddest ones of them all.

Deathwing kinda portrays that well.

Maybe. But Azshara might be more of a servant than a pawn, unlike Deathwing. Deathwing only sought to fullfill the Old Gods' goals, because he thought they would free him of his torment. Azshara, while willing to serve N'Zoth, seems to have her own agenda and will not fully dedicate herself to others' cause.
From an Old God's perspective I tend to disagree. N'Zoth will probably keep her as long as he needs to - other than that he doesn't value her more than the others.
Azshara thinks that she does, but I believe the truth is actually, that it's just what she believes, not even noticing the strings.

It's similiar to how Sargeras promised her to become his queen, while all he intended was destroying Azeroth anyways.

I dearly hope she lives up to the hype and that her boss fight is amazing.
Same expectations here as well.
 
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True, but that made him neither lose his power, did it?
Given that he dedicated his services to the Old Gods long time ago kinda indicates glimpses of madness, even if it isn't visible.
No servant of the Old Gods is free from being driven mad, as especially those, who seem to be the most sane are probably the maddest ones of them all.

Deathwing kinda portrays that well.

Yeah. But I like to point out this:

Deathwing was once a noble and kind individual that was driven insane by the whispers of the Old Gods.

Even without corruption, Azshara was already a narcissist and maybe even a psychopath. I believe that people like her are more difficult to get more insane, because they are already have disorders on their own.

It's similiar to how Sargeras promised her to become his queen, while all he intended was destroying Azeroth anyways.

Maybe he wouldn't make her his queen, but I think Sargeras would make her one of his top lieutenants at least. She was already as strong as fel-empowered Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, so if empowered she could become the closest being to match Sargeras.

Sargeras would probably spare her and her Highbourne, like he allowed Kil'jaeden, Archimonde and other Eredar join him.
 
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Maybe something like Queen Zeal and Lavos in Chrono Trigger: He allows her to take enormous amounts of power from him, which drives her nuts, but doesn't seek to harm her because she serves him without knowing it.

Also, was Azshara involved when Illidan recruited the naga? That'd make for an interesting cutscene (and showing what they did in between the Sundering and Tides of Terror).
 
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Yeah. But I like to point out this:

Deathwing was once a noble and kind individual that was driven insane by the whispers of the Old Gods.

Even without corruption, Azshara was already a narcissist and maybe even a psychopath. I believe that people like her are more difficult to get more insane, because they are already have disorders on their own.
That kinda contradicts your point, as it would be easier for a lovecraftian kind of being like an Old God to take controll of a being, which is already in mental disarray. ^^
And that's probably the reason why N'Zoth was able to corrupt her.

Maybe he wouldn't make her his queen, but I think Sargeras would make her one of his top lieutenants at least. She was already as strong as fel-empowered Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, so if empowered she could become the closest being to match Sargeras.

Sargeras would probably spare her and her Highbourne, like he allowed Kil'jaeden, Archimonde and other Eredar join him.
That might be true, since Argus was afterwards destroyed as well, once Kil'jaeden and Archimonde joined forces with the Legion.

@cleavinghammer It is confirmed in the newest Chronicle book, that Azshara sent Lady Vashj on purpose, as the Naga and N'Zoth sought to weaken the Lichking as well (probably since Void kinda dislikes the forces of Death (Undeath), although I don't know if Chronicle delivers the explanation for it why they decided to do so other than "They helped Illidan so that they could weaken the Lichking")
 
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That kinda contradicts your point, as it would be easier for a lovecraftian kind of being like an Old God to take controll of a being, which is already in mental disarray. ^^
And that's probably the reason why N'Zoth was able to corrupt her.

I am not sure. On one hand, a truly noble and sefless individual can either be almost incorruptible or easier to corrupt. After all Ner'zhul used Arthas' immense love for his people and strong sense of duty to make him his pawn.

Azshara's immense pride and narcisism is what made her resist N'Zoth's offers. Most in her position would accept right away out of desperation or desire for more power. She rejected because she refused to become someone else's pawn.

That might be true, since Argus was afterwards destroyed as well, once Kil'jaeden and Archimonde joined forces with the Legion.

Maybe Sargeras would let Azshara in charge of Azeroth. His true goal was to obtain the Titan inside Azeroth.
 
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Reminds me of Sylvanas rejecting the dreadlords.

Legacy of the Naga would be one hell of a campaign.

The campaigns in Frozen Throne are kind of misleading.

Sentinel Campaign Terror of the Tides: we mostly control the Watchers
Alliance Campaign Curse of the Blood Elves: we control Blood Elves and Naga while the Alliance is our enemy
Scourge Campaign Legacy of the Damned: we only control Scourge for half of the campaign and in the other the Forsaken
 
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I am not sure. On one hand, a truly noble and sefless individual can either be almost incorruptible or easier to corrupt. After all Ner'zhul used Arthas' immense love for his people and strong sense of duty to make him his pawn.

Azshara's immense pride and narcisism is what made her resist N'Zoth's offers. Most in her position would accept right away out of desperation or desire for more power. She rejected because she refused to become someone else's pawn.
Thing is though, that Ner'zhul can hardly be compared with an Old God.

Like the Legion, the Lichking was dependent on Arthas convincing to join until he had more controll over him, once he picked up Frostmourne. In the end he became an undead and one, which Ner'zhul gave from what I can see a lot of free power over his own destiny, even if he had to follow his plans, but the relationship between them is built up on trust upon both sides.

The pact between Azshara and N'Zoth is a onesided one.
He took advantage of her situation, knowing already her destiny and future, while obviously also knowing that she would try to defy him.
Azshara might probably call herself Queen and N'Zoth acknowledges it, but she is his creation.
He formed her, he re-shaped her flesh and the flesh of her people, she is already bound to the Old Gods without her even realizing it.

Just to give you an example: The Mantids in Pandaria were for a long time without a master although they remembered the times of Y'Shaaraj. They made already pretty clear, that their masters (the Old Gods) are imprisoned, but that they will rise up to serve them again, should they ever awaken again.
And once the Heart of Y'Shaaraj was in Garrosh's controll, the Mantids joined sides with the Iron Horde, as they had to serve their Old God master again.

Thus, it will be similiar with Azshara as well.
She might try to rebell, trying to get independent from N'Zoth, while eventually realizing that she can't as she is dependent on the pact they made. Thus realizing that she has to do as her master bids her to do nontheless, probably becoming more insane by this sheer thought, thus opening even more up for N'Zoth's whispers and manipulations.
You can't fight madness with madness - that's the Old God's main territory and that's how they keep their servants.
And the more powerful their vessels are it works probably even better - just keep Ysera in mind and how easily the Emerald Dream succumbed to the forces of the Emerald Nightmare, once Xavius took the opportunity to strike again.

Corruption from sides of the Old Gods is more than just a pretty deal, where only an agreement is felled.
A pact with the Old Gods will always result in the Old Gods being the masters and you being one of their pawns - their plans work out on multiple timelines, while they already knew the endgame of their shemes long time ago. They're outside the circle.


Maybe Sargeras would let Azshara in charge of Azeroth. His true goal was to obtain the Titan inside Azeroth.

"I paid for that destiny with MY world!" - Kil'jaeden during Tomb of Sargeras Trailer

upload_2018-9-2_15-10-28.png


Honestly, Azeroth would end up the same, if Sargeras would achieve his goal. We know that he kept Argus alive, so yes, he's definitly behind the Titan Azeroth as well, but he would have destroyed the planet in the process, especially since it's Old-God-infested.
While probably he already considered to kill Azeroth when he was confronted at the end of Legion, possibly implying as well, that Azeroth is already corrupted.

Whispers of Il'gynoth also implied that the World Soul will probably succumb to the Whispers of the Old God at some point after Sargeras dealt the wound to her + there are other hints here and there, which match with future predictions, made in Legion by the Old God's servant within the Nightmare.


So if Azshara would have become a Lieutenant of the Legion, she would either rule over a world, similiar broken as Argus and Outland or left the planet with those, she valued before Azeroth gets vaporized by Sargeras. The end result was already inevetable.
 
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So if Azshara would have become a Lieutenant of the Legion, she would either rule over a world, similiar broken as Argus and Outland or left the planet with those, she valued before Azeroth gets vaporized by Sargeras. The end result was already inevetable.

True, true. However, I'm pretty sure she would get the same fate as Kil'jaeden, due to the fact they did the same thing:
-Betrayed their kind for power
-Are skilled in the Arcane and other magics
-Kil'jaeden thought the Draenei were impure, while Azshara thought the night elves (Not the highborne) were impure
-Both later regretted it
So it's kind of the same situation. I also want to see how Azshara would react when she realizes Sargeras didn't want her to be his queen and only used her to destroy Azeroth, it'll be like those fights between moms and dads lmao.
 
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Just to give you an example: The Mantids in Pandaria were for a long time without a master although they remembered the times of Y'Shaaraj. They made already pretty clear, that their masters (the Old Gods) are imprisoned, but that they will rise up to serve them again, should they ever awaken again.
And once the Heart of Y'Shaaraj was in Garrosh's controll, the Mantids joined sides with the Iron Horde, as they had to serve their Old God master again.

The Mantid's loyalty to Y'Shaaraj is like the loyalty of a child to the parents or vice-versa. It is a loyalty of biological nature.

Honestly, Azeroth would end up the same, if Sargeras would achieve his goal. We know that he kept Argus alive, so yes, he's definitly behind the Titan Azeroth as well, but he would have destroyed the planet in the process, especially since it's Old-God-infested.
While probably he already considered to kill Azeroth when he was confronted at the end of Legion, possibly implying as well, that Azeroth is already corrupted.

I think his act of stabbing Azeroth was either a case of "if I can't have it, no one can!" or an attempt to finnaly get rid of a world filled with inhabitants that costed him so much (his two top lieutenants, many of his most powerful servants, thousands of his soldiers).

True, true. However, I'm pretty sure she would get the same fate as Kil'jaeden, due to the fact they did the same thing:
-Betrayed their kind for power
-Are skilled in the Arcane and other magics
-Kil'jaeden thought the Draenei were impure, while Azshara thought the night elves (Not the highborne) were impure
-Both later regretted it
So it's kind of the same situation. I also want to see how Azshara would react when she realizes Sargeras didn't want her to be his queen and only used her to destroy Azeroth, it'll be like those fights between moms and dads lmao.

-Kil'jaeden, unlike Archimonde, joined Sargeras mostly because he thought the cause was rightseous and because he thought Sargeras couldn't be stopped.
-Azshara wanted a purified world, one cleansed of all races she deemed impure (all except the Night Elves and Nightborne)
-Azshara is not one to feel regret. People like her tend to blame everyone else but her
 
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-Kil'jaeden, unlike Archimonde, joined Sargeras mostly because he thought the cause was rightseous and because he thought Sargeras couldn't be stopped.
-Azshara wanted a purified world, one cleansed of all races she deemed impure (all except the Night Elves and Nightborne)
-Azshara is not one to feel regret. People like her tend to blame everyone else but her
]

-Well, I'll give you that one, but I thought I heard he did it for power
-Actually, she wanted ONLY the Highborne, NOT the Night Elves (The lower class of the Highborne)
-She did regret joining Sargeras, however she did the same with N'Zoth only for she and her people to survive.
 
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I'd played it before and it was kinda good but there was an idea for you
at the 1st chapter on this campaign make sure you have limited amount or types of units that you need to make from Myrmidons to Dragon turtles.... and maybe get more enemey's buildings and 2 make sure the temple of the seas maxed of your base.....

other then that it was a good campaign keep up the good work
 

YetAnotherYoutuber

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great potential in the project, i love the how blasted lands were re-created in wc3, although i have some cons as well
gonna have a video of the first mission, but in case that you dont want to watch it or dont have time or whatever:
royal guards trivialize much of the combat - have them either limited in training, or set a much higher cooldown on crushing wave
allies train all units, despite being marked as only brute and siege, or only air and spellcasters
enemies dont do any upgrades and are weak, in comparison to the naga
maybe if humans had si7 agents, a unit equivalent in power to the royal guard, and orcs had some sort of shaman?
both humans and orcs could have their soldiers marked as veterans, to increase their hp, damage and armor, perhaps give each unit a unique trick of sorts? something they learned over the course of their service to their race, so that they wouldnt be a piece of cake for even the basic naga units
 
great potential in the project, i love the how blasted lands were re-created in wc3, although i have some cons as well
gonna have a video of the first mission, but in case that you dont want to watch it or dont have time or whatever:
royal guards trivialize much of the combat - have them either limited in training, or set a much higher cooldown on crushing wave
allies train all units, despite being marked as only brute and siege, or only air and spellcasters
enemies dont do any upgrades and are weak, in comparison to the naga
maybe if humans had si7 agents, a unit equivalent in power to the royal guard, and orcs had some sort of shaman?
both humans and orcs could have their soldiers marked as veterans, to increase their hp, damage and armor, perhaps give each unit a unique trick of sorts? something they learned over the course of their service to their race, so that they wouldnt be a piece of cake for even the basic naga units

Thanks a lot @YetAnotherYoutuber will implement these cahnges immediately.
 
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