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Techtree Contest #15 - Results

Discussion in 'Contest Archive' started by Mythic, Aug 31, 2020.

  1. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    What I find particularly interesting is that when there is a discrepancy regarding the scoring between two judges, you seem to automatically veer in on that one that scored you lower as being unprofessional.

    Now, when it came to delivering the 0's, they were from my perspective warranted. Granted, if I were to provide a 1 in each of those parameters, that might bump you up to a 14, so I'm not sure if that really addresses the real issue.

    As for statements that are in no way an assessment, I don't really know what to tell you. The unit lineup was the ingame Human faction effectively slashed in half, and the way in which mana shield was used ensured that you started off with your units at a lower performance rate to ingame factions. The only way to overcome this is by building up your Faith as quickly as possible, and that's not an easy investment to make.

    Kam's judging of the entry in question was radically different to my own. I am baffled by the notion of him having played the entry and not only being able to make it function for him, but being able to make it function to the point of assessing that it might be too powerful in some instances. He might just be a better player than me, and I in no way would invalidate his assessment - it's a very different perspective to my own that, when calculated for the results, provides a more balanced middle ground for the final score.

    I would like to ask, though, what aspects were actually unprofessional? Out of two judges, you observe there is a massive difference in scoring for your entry, yet from what I can see, you automatically accept the results that provide you with a high score. This could be a personal bias from your own perspective, but it should be said that this in no way says anything against what you would do for your own personal project - this is judged from the setting of a Techtree Contest.
     
  2. AMarkov

    AMarkov

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    Do you want to drag @Kam into conflict? He behaved kindly and deserves to stay out of this conflict. He put his marks, you yours. But he did not say that instead of a non-standard race, it is better to play with a hero and troops from a tavern and a mercenary camp, this is outrageous. Disrespect, accusations, caustic humor. I don’t think that in this conversation we will come to any decision. An asshole is an asshole.
     
  3. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    I think you might have been the one to drag Kam in there? You mentioned the two judges, anyway, so it seemed fitting to talk about both the judges in particular.

    I am having a very difficult time determining what you're taking issue with, but I would advise you refrain from the name calling. It's definitely not going to help reach a meaningful conclusion.
     
  4. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    Um, excuse me sir. This isn't my problem but I'd like to point out that Wazzz didn't mean any insult. It's the judge's own opinion and their own experience. Not everyone will have the same experience as everyone plays differently. Saying Wazzz did "Disrespect, accusations, caustic humor" is false as he's been nothing but cordial from the moment this contest started and even complimented your W.I.P previews. In my opinion, your entry was decent and I can tell you put in effort, but that doesn't mean you should insult someone for having a different perspective on things.

    Apologies if I'm overstepping a bit. Just thought I should clear things up.
     
  5. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Not at all, I think you presented your perspective very well and I don't feel you overstepped at all :)
     
  6. AMarkov

    AMarkov

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    @SgtWinter, Maybe @Wazzz is right and my commander is really squalor? I will gladly hear an opinion from the outside
     
  7. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    I think Uther is fine as an entry. He's just a bit similar to the basic Human techtree I guess, which can turn some people off since they've probably played the same race a million times already and are expecting something new.
    The Faith and Talent mechanics provided a lot of options for gameplay and offers replayability (Not to mention they're clean AF)
    Shield of Faith is darn good too at keeping your units alive, although its basically Mana Shield.
    Would be great too if Uther had more unique unit types since he's kinda lacking in that area. Most of his units are more or less the same as their Human counterparts, which is understandable as the main focus is right on Uther and his Paladins, who have a lot going on for them.
    The units are initially weaker without Faith so I can see why taking Mercenaries would be an effective approach early on, but I wouldn't replace the heroes with Tavern Heroes considering Uther's Paladins are just way too good. I do think Wazzz giving you a 0 on gameplay is a bit too much however. You definitely worked hard on Uther and while there's certainly areas you can expand on with this commander, it definitely doesn't deserve such a low score.

    Well, that's my own personal opinion at least.
     
  8. AMarkov

    AMarkov

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    I, in turn, will say that I "exploded" precisely because of the scores of 0 points. I will continue to work on my "flawed" project.
    But I will not take part in such competitions anymore.
    Thank.
     
  9. SgtWinter

    SgtWinter

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    Mhm, yeah the low scores are a bit too much considering how much thought was put in Uther so I don't blame you, I'd be pissed too if all my effort was treated like that. But every work is flawed, so don't beat yourself up over it. I hope you continue mapping despite all this!

    Edit: ahh i dont mean to say treated as in a purposefully bad way, more as just misunderstood!
     
  10. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Now this is something I can work with.
    The Talent mechanic I had a bit of trouble getting to work for me at first, but after a while I was able to find out how to use it, I definitely agree that they're phenomenally clean. Granted, I found some of the options were... a little difficult to quantify from a melee gameplay standpoint.

    The biggest issues I had with Mana Shield on everything is there's a few things that will be hard counters to the entire faction as such, and due to the nature of the implementation, every unit produced starts with a mana value based upon how much Faith you have, which in the early stages of the game is not a lot. When a unit's health is tanked to accommodate this sort of mechanic, it leaves it phenomenally vulnerable until you get enough Faith - but I might be the only one with that experience, and I am not sure how people managed to overcome this. It should also be noted that this mechanic extends to Uther and the Paladins themselves, so in the early game of getting Uther, he starts off with near 0 mana, which is a huge detriment.

    Now, when it comes to a 0 for gameplay, this is where I'm considering there might be some flexibility. The primary reason I gave it zero in the first place was because of how the parameter was described:

    Looking at the faction itself, the unit roster being the ingame Human faction with half its roster cut out, it definitely tanks the score for the well-thought-out unit roles, and the way in which mana shield was incorporated with the Faith mechanic also caused it a setback, but perhaps there are other areas worth inspecting in this area? It's definitely something I'd like to refine.



    In response to the consideration of abandoning Techtree Contests in accordance with provided results, it has been said before that the results can be adjusted provided there are reasonable enough grounds to do so. My primary interest is in following the presented formula provided for the contest itself to the best of my abilities, but it should also be stated that there is a definite learning curve with judging such entries - in situations where the provided feedback is purely inflammatory and any attempts to improve the quality of scoring are rejected, it ultimately leaves no room for resolution. In the event that a contestant feels actively discouraged from participating in future because of said scores, it ultimately falls onto them when every opportunity for reevaluation was presented.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  11. Daffa

    Daffa

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    I doubt the change of score influences the final victors, but I think it won't hurt to see some adjustment. We also need a more clear ground on some definitions for judging as well it seems. However, it seems to be something common in tech-tree contests to have these kinds of problems, at least these two last contests seem to always have this problem for some reason.
     
  12. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Yeah, definitely. There's always going to be contestants that are unhappy with at least some of the results, but the judge's guide is very clear on such matters:

    So, while it is most likely to stay final, if a case could be raised of there being a big mistake, there could definitely be grounds for reevaluation. Unfortunately, so far the only real points raised so far are:
    • Some of the scores given went as low as 0 in specific fields
    • There is a huge difference in the score that I provided in contrast to the one Kam provided for the entry in question
    Now, when it comes to the difference in scores, that in itself is not grounds for an accusation of bias - the same could be said that Kam had a bias in favor of the entry, but in reality the accusation comes across as being little more than a knee jerk reaction against a negative review while the positive review is seen as faultless. As for the rationale behind the scores I gave, I am more than happy to divulge in that to explain where I came from, and consequently determine if an issue existed as such.

    Ultimately, the working perspective I had to come from was that the entry itself had some interesting ideas that had some interesting UI mechanics, while the implementation is what caused it to suffer so poorly in the scoring. The over reliance on Mana Shield as a core mechanic has been mentioned, but it should also be noted that due to the nature of the Faith mechanic that could have been an interesting implementation, it reduces the amount of Mana each unit starts with unless you get your Faith up. This doesn't just happen for the units - this happens for Uther himself, where he actually starts the game with 0 Mana, as opposed to all the other heroes in the game that get to start the game with maximum mana.

    Comments I made concerning the race being the ingame Human faction with a severe handicap were no exaggeration - you are looking at an identical unit roster with tanked stats and 6 units removed. As for Uther's Paladins themselves, which are to be the center of attention for the faction, they also suffer from the Mana Shield + Faith mechanics where to use any of their spells they have to sacrifice their Health substitute, but on top of that, each named Paladin is effectively a Footman clone with maybe one stat changed to distinguish between them. They do have their own spells, and the Talent options provide the capacity for getting more abilities in their arsenal, but this becomes a bit of an issue to use any of the castable abilities as you are relying on Mana Shield to give you any chance of survival, while the stats leave them hitting very ineffectively. On top of this, there is actually quite a rampant use of ingame abilities - one of the named Paladins has "Dispel Magic", another has the slightly renamed "Wave of healing". Each Paladin has an aura, too, one of them outright being Devotion Aura.

    Unfortunately for Gameplay and Balance, this had to be judged based on the overall cohesion of the entry itself in the roles each element played in addition to how well it performed against existing factions. Since an ingame faction was taken and effectively nerfed from a Balance perspective, this put all the semblance of hope on the Paladins themselves, which were, from what I could gather, incapable of performing adequately as a unit, let alone for how much they cost. From a Gameplay perspective, a lot of the elements of the existing ingame faction were similarly removed. The Talent UI was very nicely done, but I can't exactly judge a techtree based on that.
     
  13. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    I would very much suggest to stop the public witch hunt and provide feedback through the proper channels instead.
    We have had enough contests that are going into the state of becoming a public drama after the results are out.

    My congratulations to the winners. I feel sorry that this kind of drama kind of tainted this thread.
     
  14. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    This thread *is* one of the proper channels, though. We're talking it out publicly, as opposed to PMs.
     
  15. Mythic

    Mythic

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    Criticism should not be taken personally. Please refrain from personal attacks and focus on the subject.
    Indeed, I'd prefer the discussion be held here.
     
  16. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Admittedly I would be happy for the discussion to happen at all, instead of the contestant in question resorting to name calling without raising an actual case.
    For the users who have actually expressed their viewpoints and thereby contributed to such a discussion, though, I definitely appreciate it. It does help to know where people are coming from while also being able to express where I have been coming from :)
     
  17. Daffa

    Daffa

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    I am not surprised with score differences though. Given there is more than one judge, there will be a potential for a span of spectrum difference. We have multiple contests with similar results, given Judges can have varying degrees of evaluation over each matter.

    Anyway, as for the particular entry in question, I cannot say much since it's based on HD Reforged, something I cannot touch on. This also applies to some entries from Reforged that I skimmed. If memory serves well, I have tested all non-reforged entries. If it's SD, I can give my fair share of view and if the judging is definitely 'justified'.
     
  18. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Definitely, yeah. It's where I really like not only having two judges, but having the judging having such a strong difference in scoring for at least one entry. The end conclusion is that the score ends up becoming a middle ground between the two, and that's still not a bad score for what the entry was.

    The restriction of HD is a shame, too. I suppose it can /technically/ be played in SD, but there'll be missing resources and the like, which is a shame.
     
  19. AMarkov

    AMarkov

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    I will no longer discuss my work, I realized that its price is 0.

    1. Obviously, in order to improve the quality of judging, there should be an order of magnitude more judges, then there will be more reviews. A deliberate overstatement and understatement of estimates will be correlated.

    2. Another requirement for competitive entries emerged from your dialogue. Game requirement - SD or HD graphics only. Obviously, HD graphics are not overgrown with as many models in the public domain as SD graphics. The creation of HD models itself is very time consuming, which reduces time and other aspects of development. Even the effects need to be carefully selected for HD graphics.
    This is not a modeling contest, but it directly affects the aesthetics of the non-standard race, which means the assessment of Theme and Creativity.

    3. Balance score is a very clear indicator.
    0/20 points - the player controlling the race always wins or loses; 20/20 - 50% win rate.
    In this case, all 4 standard races must be taken into account.
    How it happened that the race balance was equal to 0 raises a huge question, beyond the familiar arguments of Wazzz there is no justification for the points.

    4. Gameplay. The main criticism of the Wazzz is the Alliance race with the severed eggs. At the same time, the conditions of the competition spoke of the presence of 1 hero, 6 units and 6 buildings, they are fulfilled, what is the reproach? Here the goal is to find out how the units interact with each other, it turns out that there was no interaction. For example, a priest and a tank of the alliance (treatment is not able to interact with vehicles) is 0 points. I understand it turned out to be just such a case.

    5. Mr. Bangsgaard was downgraded to vote for himself, but there was no such rule in the competition rules. If there is a rule, you should specify it.

    6. Creativity. Quite a subjective indicator, however, it is clear that copy-past is not encouraged. It is clear that Mr. Wazzz did not like it at all, so 4/30, the idea is there, the implementation is shit.
    Perhaps you need clearer parameters for assessing creativity, or a justification for the assessment.
    For example, we take 15/30, the golden mean, we begin to add and subtract points to it.
    - Copy-past of the swordsman without changing the parameters (-1 point)
    - Non-standard unit model (+2 points), etc.
    Based on the Wazz score, the non-standard race is 85% standard with no changes.

    7. Theme. I think Wazz handled the score based on the logic of a castrated race with a few tweaks. Even somehow a lot, as much as 8 points out of 25 possible. The score from point 6 of my reasoning could also clarify the score in the category.

    8. The final score looks like a couple of ideas with a shit sauce, i.e. complete complete mediocrity. At the very least, it is humiliating.

    I thought it was a fun competition in a friendly community with no place for negativity. It turned out to be an admission to a large IT company for the position of a senior game designer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2020
  20. Daffa

    Daffa

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    It leaves a lot of questions though when the score is from one spectrum end to another spectrum end, however, which will scream "we need explanation" problem. Had it been a 60:40 or 80:50 I think it is within logical bound. But this particular one is interesting and does attract a lot of questions. In reverse, we can question @Kam assessment as well. How come it gets such a high score in his view?

    I apologize but I'm going to question this as I feel this particular scoring is a pretty weird one here. It just screams that something is weird here. As I said, I find how both yours and Kam being an end to end spectrum score is interesting.

    I'll try analyzing both judging and see if I can find some interesting stuff there. This might be a ripple though.

    @AMarkov For self-voting matter, I recall it has been mentioned in the Poll thread on the first post.