[Suggestion] Backpack pickup

[Devlain]

Could be possible that when I pickup an unequipabble item with my hero, that item go directly to the backpack instead of staying in the ground?
It think this would be a nice yet simple feature

 

[S0ulseeker]

just press F2 and right click or F3 and right click for mats

 

[Devlain]

just press F2 and right click or F3 and right click for mats

That is what I do, but I get to the conclussion that it feels pretty "unnatural" and "non-intuitive".

I think it's a small feature that could add comodities to the game.

I dunno how hard it will be to code or if it worth the effort, I only think that would be nice.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

After you play for more than an hour you should figure out all what you can and can't equip. Its really not necessary and it becomes very easy to just press f2 to backpack the items you obviously can't use.

 

[ALEXz407]

Could be possible that when I pickup an unequipabble item with my hero, that item go directly to the backpack instead of staying in the ground?

Simple and useful, I like this idea.

Why player should switch: skills -> backpack -> pick up item -> hero -> skills, if the game can automatically check free space and put item into a backpack? (like with material bag). So you need to open the backpack only if it's full and you see "backpacks are full" error.

 

[Devlain]

After you play for more than an hour you should figure out all what you can and can't equip. Its really not necessary and it becomes very easy to just press f2 to backpack the items you obviously can't use.

There's no doubt about if I can recognize a mail or leather item at single look after one or two hours of gameplay, but the fact is that sometimes, one dosen't event want to look (because you are taking all the loot in the ground for selling reasons).

I can't understand why you doesn't see this as a good feature.

You gave me solutions as I were having a problem or complaining about current gameplay.

I don't have any problems with the current system, but I think that you didn't gave me any reason to preffer the current system above the one I suggest.

The only matter could be coding time, but still we don't even know if this is easy doable or not =O

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I think this feels unintuitive for new players; getting the error message that you can not equip this item if you already have another in your inventory basicy serves as a "gameplay tutorial" for new players. They will see the error and automaticly know "ah, okay, this is how it works" and then usually ask how they can sell the item and get told about the backpack unit or F2.

If they just click an item and the item goes immediately to the backpack, then new players will think that the item just disappeared or even suspect a bug.

I think, again, we have a case of trying to fix issues that aren't broken.

 

[ALEXz407]

I think this feels unintuitive for new players

Not true, newcomers often don't pickup items because F2 thing is very unintuitive and there is no any help info that tells them about this feature.
But yes, just drop items into backpack without any information will be unintuitive too.

getting the error message that you can not equip this item if you already have another in your inventory basicy serves as a "gameplay tutorial" for new players. They will see the error and automaticly know "ah, okay, this is how it works" and then usually ask how they can sell the item and get told about the backpack unit or F2.

If they just click an item and the item goes immediately to the backpack, then new players will think that the item just disappeared or even suspect a bug.

Why not combine informational error message with auto backpack pick up?
'You are already wearing an item of this type, it placed in your Backpack (F2)'
'Your class can not use this item, it placed in your Backpack (F2)'.

I think, again, we have a case of trying to fix issues that aren't broken.

This will make Gaias more user-friendly.

 

[grekern]

Why not combine informational error message with auto backpack pick up?
'You are already wearing an item of this type, it placed in your Backpack (F2)'
'Your class can not use this item, it placed in your Backpack (F2)'.

An alternative could be to just tell the player to put it in the bag.
'You are already wearing an item of this type, use the Backpack (F2) to store the item'
'Your class can not use this item, use the Backpack (F2) to store the item'.

 

[Devlain]

Still, the message alert with automatic redirect to backpack seems the best solution possible.
1-It is comfortable
2-It is more efficient for the player
3-It is user-friendly
And, nope, it is not a trying to fix an issue that is not broken. As I said; the current system is not bad; the suggested one seems to have more benefits than the current, that's all.
Of course there is coding time involved in the cost-benefits equation, but from a strictly design point of view, a backpack pickup and its message could benefit comfort, efficiency and learning curve of players (as the message serves as an introduction to the concept of "backpack") =P

 

[ALEXz407]

Shameless bump for this thread.
Not so long ago i played some games at gaias farm bot with newcomers. None of the about 10 players have guessed how to work with F2, until more experienced player told them about it.
Perhaps the players are not so attentive nowadays, because F2-F3 thing is mentioned in game start message. But it would be nice to do something with it.

---

Maybe intelligent item pick up system could help, with information messages for current player based on floating texts. Exemplary logic looks like:

- If player can not use this item type, floating message "You can not use this item" appears and error message showed as usual.
-- If player have at least one free slot in backpack, item placed here automatically and floating message "It placed in the backpack F2" appears.
-- Else floating message "And your backpack F2 is full" appears.

- If player can use this item type and can equip it, current item of this type uneqipped and floating message "[ITEMNAME] uneqipped" appears.
-- If player have free slots in the backpack, uneqipped item placed here, and floating message "And placed in your backpack F2" appears.
-- Else item dropped on the ground and floating message "And dropped because your backpack F2 is full" appears.
-- New item picked up.

- If player can use this item type, but not meet level (or other) requirments yet, floating message "You can not equip this item yet" appears and error message with reason showed as usual.
-- If player have free slots in the backpack, picked item placed here, and floating message "It placed in your backpack F2" appears.
-- Else floating message "And your backpack F2 is full" appears.

- Consumables, quest items and resources ignored in this logic because they work well as is.

This indication enabled by default and can be disabled in game options.

Also game must show important error messages, like "level is too low for this item" and etc. Logic for this things remains unchanged.

---

And small useful thing: can you add floating message for all players when looting items? Something like "[PLAYERCOLOR]Playername[/PLAYERCOLOR] (Class) picked up [ITEMNAME]". This will help to quickly identify ninja-looters and roll-breakers.

---

These changes will not impact develop time too much (i hope), but will increase newcomers conversion (and here i hope too). So think about them, please.

 

[SHBlade]

Game is hard dude.

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

In general this never bothered me, I guess that's because the first thing you're supposed to do in an RPG is become familiar with the user interface, make sure you understand what all the icons on the screen mean and what use they have. You can't expect everyone to think this way though, will it really be so hard to autoplace items to backpack?

Either way it doesn't matter that much, the player will eventually notice the backpack anyway.

The only real problem I've encountered is the quest item rewards. Sometimes the reward will drop straight to the floor and there will be no model or indicator that there is anything there unless you look for it deliberately. I'm guessing this is when you already have the item type equipped and there's no space in backpack. I've seen many players lose quest rewards this way.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

In general this never bothered me, I guess that's because the first thing you're supposed to do in an RPG is become familiar with the user interface, make sure you understand what all the icons on the screen mean and what use they have. You can't expect everyone to think this way though, will it really be so hard to autoplace items to backpack?

Either way it doesn't matter that much, the player will eventually notice the backpack anyway.

The only real problem I've encountered is the quest item rewards. Sometimes the reward will drop straight to the floor and there will be no model or indicator that there is anything there unless you look for it deliberately. I'm guessing this is when you already have the item type equipped and there's no space in backpack. I've seen many players lose quest rewards this way.

So, you're saying when you get a quest reward and the item drops on the floor, it doesn't have the spinning weapon/armor model?
If so, then this is a bug.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

I think that is an issue with crafting items as well. They just kinda go invisible on the ground D:

 

[ALEXz407]

+1 to issue with invisible items.

In general this never bothered me, I guess that's because the first thing you're supposed to do in an RPG is become familiar with the user interface, make sure you understand what all the icons on the screen mean and what use they have. You can't expect everyone to think this way though, will it really be so hard to autoplace items to backpack?

Game is hard dude.

Game isn't hard, at least for the old school gamers. It just takes some time to understand the interface, as SaikoDeMoN said.

Either way it doesn't matter that much, the player will eventually notice the backpack anyway.

According to my observations, players don't understand it quickly.
It's pretty funny - watch how 3-4 ppl party kill a mob, got an item drop, click on it several times and then continue killing mobs, leaving item on the ground.
Well, sometimes player understands that he must uneqiup current item to take a new one, but doesn't place old into F2 backpack.
In my memory, only one player guessed to use F2 backpack without any advices.
Maybe I was just unlucky with random parties, who knows?

---

I suppose "quality" of players lowered nowadays. You know, almost all AAA titles are very casual. So players think that game will lead them through the starting location with tutorials, fancy pop ups and other things that make newbie's life easy. Maybe that's why they rush into the action and don't waste time on the interface.

Also, some players have "partial blindness" on the error messages if they don't appear at their focus point (i.e. over clicked item). So it looks like: "Why I click on the item and it doesn't picked up? Well maybe try with another one.", "Oh, nice dagger, and I'm a thief, take it, TAKE IT! Why it doesn't pick up? WTF, this map is broken! [MENU] -> [QUIT]".

And don't forget about "herd instincts" that don't let players to just stop and sort things out. "Everybody runs and kills mobs, and I will run", "Everybody ignore this item, and I will just leave it on the ground".

In addition, players nowadays can not "fight" with difficulties. "Oh no! My character died! And I must wait 1 minute before ressurection?! WTF, why I must wasting my time?! [MENU] -> [QUIT]" (well, in Dota players can wait much more time, but this happens only in the late game, so player understand why he must wait so long)

In any case, I described it all earlier in thread about newbie friendliness.

---

tl;dr: Gaias can attract more players if you make some things easier / more understandable (at least for newbies), but overall "player's skill" will be lowered.

Or you can keep everything as is, because Gaias already have nice experienced community.
So community will help newbies to understand some hard things and tell about interesting things in lategame (you know, first levels show only around 20%-30% of game possibilities).
But keep in mind that experienced players mostly active only after content updates, and that they will try to play with other experienced players and with high leveled characters.

P.S. In any case, my arguments are quite subjective and based on my thoughts, not the real gamedesign experience. So I will not push this kind of ideas more .

 

[BoxOfFaith]

What you described is true, however I don't see it as a problem.

Generally if players aren't going to use intuition and not going to have a sense of exploration, then let them leave. They don't sound like the kind of players that will stick around and want to play the game for hundreds of hours anyway.

I'd rather not be playing a game that has everything spoonfed to us for no real reason. Think of it like this; of all those noobs who ragequit after 5 minutes because they died and needed to wait, or couldn't figure out the backpack, or (insert other issues described) how many do you think would have stayed and became valuable members of the community because the there was some text telling them how to use the backpack? I highly doubt many would.

If anything, we should really be encouraging the high levels to act as mentors to the newer players if they need help. Having the game set up in such a way that players need to be helping other players via communication should create a much more healthy environment than one in which nobody talks because the game text is leading everyone everywhere they need to go.

Gaias strikes a nice balance between being given direction, but not quite enough that it feels like giant flashing arrows telling us exactly where everything is. I like it, and I'd hate to see peoples intuition and exploration be taken away in the hopes that a few immature and impatient players won't ragequit quickly. Let them ragequit. We should want a smaller more intuitive community rather than one full of players who just want instant gratification.

 

[Jumbo]

I totally agree with Alex here. The suggestion you (Alex) made earlier about a starting quest/tutorial teaching the basics to new players at lvl 1 is very good. First hand impression is extremely important and I don't believe that people are "just stupid noobs" if they quit within 5-10 minutes of the game. Some people will leave no matter what is done, I accept that, but those people are not the interesting ones.

Think of yourself when trying a new map in WC3. I can say for myself that often when I try new RPG maps in WC3 I will immediately "review" the map in my head within the first 2-5 minutes. Things like bad tooltips, poor descriptions, poor terrain, gameplay, and so on are quit-reasons. While Gaias is a very high quality map in almost all aspects, the startup could and should be improved regarding teaching how to play. As I have said before, this would surely add more players to the community whether some people acknowledge it or not. However, once again I must say that 1.2b must come first and then this "starter quest"/"tutorial" should be considered afterwards.

The hand holding argument has nothing to do with this suggestion. Adding a starting quest which helps only holds the hand at lvl 1-2 and thereby for teaching the absolute basics of gameplay. So let it be said that anyone who says that this will turn Gaias into a hand holding/brainless game "just like AAA games today" is making a false dichotomy. What I am saying is, it is not a Gaias of NO help vs. LOTS of help choice. A little help to get people started is the third and proper solution that should be choosen.

Truly, if such a starter quest is done properly (as it is in some games) it will be an integrated part of the story, blending into the world of Gaias without feeling like a separated part of the game. Think of games such as Desperados: Wanted Dead or Alive, Baldur's Gate and even the Warcraft 3 RoC tutorial campaign. The tutorials in all 3 examples were integrated parts of the story and because those tutorials weren't locked off in some "virtual tutorial room" only acting as training simulator, it didn't get boring at all.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The basic idea behind the early game of Gaias is a slow and clean explorative way of figuring out content. You are immediately greeted by an NPC that has a talk and accept quest button. This is basicly to show players the basics of the quest system in Gaias. It also gives players a long-term (relatively spoken) directive by pointing the player towards the first quest hub.

The second quest you will encounter in the game is a classic kill quest. This quest was intended for players to get familiar with the combat and resting mechanic. For the intro section of Gaias, I tried to keep the amount of screen clutter and information everywhere as low as possible.
I was never a fan of games that start out with everything readily available. It's just a bad design practice. That's why the first selection of skills and shops is locked out until you reach Riversdale. That's why there is relatively few and short quests before you hit riversdale.
I wanted to give players the time to figure out all the core game systems.
But the game ultimately caters to players that are familiar with WC3 RPG concepts, not exactly complete RPG newcomers.

Considering that Gaias is so extremely popular now, it might be the time to actually make the game more newcomer friendly, not only for players new to Gaias, but also players new to RPGs in general.

I dig the idea of a "tutorial quest". I could basicly provide players a dialog option after hero selection, explaining the basics of the quest system, the backpack and resting, such as saving/loading via a tutorial quest. I think this could be the way to go.


So, three guys knew about items not showing properly if the inventory is full and nobody thought that this might have been a bug that was worth reporting? What is wrong with you? -_-'

 

[cheno3556]

It's not a bug, if you are full inventory, the item just drops on the floor and when its an item like accessory, you barely see it since its camouflaged with the floor.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

It's not a bug, if you are full inventory, the item just drops on the floor and when its an item like accessory, you barely see it since its camouflaged with the floor.

So you're gonna tell me what is a bug in my game and what is not? I'd say I know better...

 

[BoxOfFaith]

It's not a bug, if you are full inventory, the item just drops on the floor and when its an item like accessory, you barely see it since its camouflaged with the floor.

This also isn't the case. Items simply don't appear with any model. I'd guess if your inventory is full and they're then dropped on the ground instead, it caused the models not to render.

I guess it seemed like it was such one-off thing that doesn't always happen that it slipped my mind to remember to report it. I dunno about everyone else, but yeah.

On the topic of an introductory quest in the game, I think this would be a good addition. A sort of explanation of the functions would be fine. Changing core mechanics so the game becomes excessively simple (like items automatically being placed in the backpack when trying to pick them up) I think would be going too far though.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

On the topic of an introductory quest in the game, I think this would be a good addition. A sort of explanation of the functions would be fine. Changing core mechanics so the game becomes excessively simple (like items automatically being placed in the backpack when trying to pick them up) I think would be going too far though.

Yeah, about that, I already stated my oppinion (I always go by "never surprise the user" principle of programming. Which is why items going directly to the bag is a no go for me. It's an a-okay behaviour for materials because by the time you notice the crafting mechanics and try them out, you already understood how the inventory works. Also, everyone can use every material, so the idea of prevent ninja-looting isn't particulary interesting here.

I added the missing models to the bugtracker. Progress for the beta is going strong. I already changed almost all spells to the new buff mechanics. Looks like I can start coding the spells and talents for the Mystic this week.

Actually, due to the new buff mechanics, I have a way easier time now also coding the boss spells for 1.2B. This is a real time-saver and I think by the time I finish the Mystic spells, the return of investment is already there.


The tutorial quest could actually be added as additional goals to the "talk to the innkeeper" introductory quest.

Basicly, by just adding 3 more conditions:

- Pick up any item with your backpack (press 'F2' to access your backpack)
- Rest to recover HP and MP (press 'R' to rest)
- Save the game by entering '-save' into game chat
- Report to Innkeeper Beregost in Riversdale to complete this quest (select the innkeeper and use 'Talk')

 

[Jumbo]

Yes this sounds good Zwieb. However I think the position of the wolves quest npc should be moved within sight range of the main road going from starting spawn area to Riversdale. This is for increasing the feeling of a free roam RPG: You come across this npc whether you want to or not, and you can choose to accept the quest or simply ignore and come back after going to Riversdale (not that this is a good idea, but for new players the choice will be good to have). Also add floating text near Willy Winka (the starting npc) saying something along the lines of: "Hey you, come over here!". Then a hint sound (wc3 campaign standard) plays and the text (not floating) "Select the npc to accept his quest".

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I think its MMO 101 that yellow exclamation marks mean "yeah umm... you should like REALLY click me."... any more visual clues would be pointless there.

 

[Jumbo]

Yes, you are right. But you see, not all people playing maps expect a standard MMO design in Warcraft 3. And even the many people (which I agree with you) who do, when playing gaias for the first time, expect/realise this is how Gaias is made, may be used to RPG maps where quests aren't as central a part to the game as they are in Gaias. Remember that some of the half-good rpg maps have exclamation marks over npcs and when the new player, who knows nothing about the game, clicks the npc all hell breaks lose and some boss lvl 195 spawns and instant kills them.

This is why even the simplest of things should be explained. It all comes down to the gaming platform. What do I mean by this?

When people buy/download a new MMO game they know what to expect. But when people join a map in a RTS game called Warcraft 3 they have no idea whatsoever what to expect from the given map. Many maps are called many fancy names, but more than half of them end up disappointing any critical player. Even if a map has "RTS" or "ORPG" in its name, you don't know exactly what to expect because of the random nature of user generated content in an old Battlenet platform which doesn't exactly do a good job of describing the map before you have downloaded it from the Custom Game lobby and start playing.

This is what I mean and it is the reason why I believe seemingly very simple things must be explained in the first 1-2 minutes.

Always remember that this will never be a problem for experienced players. You can quickly skip through these tutorial instructions and be done with it. But at least it will be there for those that might need it.

 

[ALEXz407]

However I think the position of the wolves quest npc should be moved within sight range of the main road going from starting spawn area to Riversdale. This is for increasing the feeling of a free roam RPG: You come across this npc whether you want to or not, and you can choose to accept the quest or simply ignore and come back after going to Riversdale (not that this is a good idea, but for new players the choice will be good to have).

+1 to this idea. At this point player surely will not miss this quest giver.
Maybe place NPC closer to top trees (but still near to the road), so he will be better visible with standart camera.
And some wolves spawns can be moved accordingly.

Sometimes newcomers run to the bench at the top right corner of the map, because, you know, quest giver doesn't say where Riversdale located.
Maybe add here a NPC who will just say that he (or she) like this beautiful view, and after that say that Riversdale located on the South, down the road.
Closest wolf spawn can be moved/removed accordingly too.

Also add floating text near Willy Winka (the starting npc) saying something along the lines of: "Hey you, come over here!".

"Get over here!" and pudge hook if player leaves starting location without accepting quest.

But seriously, this can help if player did not notice starting quest.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

At this point, are we still trying to fix the game or fix the players?

 

[Jumbo]

Hey Zwieb. There is a good reason why every MMO has some kind of tutorial. Most of us can skip that, but some people actually need help. Even someone who has only played standard WC3 should by design be able to get into Gaias easily. This can be easier or harder depending on the person, but why not make sure those who have problems won't have those anymore?

People can still die to Wolf boss, spiders, pulling too many wolves/bandits, so it is not like the game is suddenly a babysitter with these changes.

I think one of the reasons Wow was originally so succesful was that not only did it appeal to serious gamers, but also to casual players who just wanted to have fun. Thats why it had a tutorial, starting zones where it was practically impossible to die unless you were really doing something wrong, simple gameplay and fast early progression. All these things added up to a easy to play difficult to master type of game. But the point here is that drawing people in early on by helping can make them stay later even though it isn't handholding anymore.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Are we seriously comparing WoW to a custom Wc3 map?

Gaias doesn't NEED new players to survive. Its not a game intended to be making money. WoW HAS to draw in every new player it can because thats how the finances were structured.

Your guys concerns really don't fit into the game very well. No amount of tutorials are going to keep the typical player from leaving or staying. They're either going to stay or they're not. An introductory quest is fine, changing anything else is pointless.

 

[Jumbo]

Box you didn't read my posts well enough. What you are saying is exactly what I have been suggesting. Apart from that, I suggested to move the rifleman closer to the road as seen in Alex' screenshots.

Yes I am comparing to many different games to illustrate my points. If the word Wow instantly makes you think that I want Gaias to be a full MMO game, it is your reading skills that are lacking. Gaias is not a game making money? No, of course not and that is exactly what makes it great - the lack of commercial influence.

I may not have made myself entirely clear about the early game Wow that I compared to.
However, I was talking solely about the startup in a multiplayer orpg and comparing to the startup of Wow as an example of a job well done. So please, dont bury your head in the snow because I mention real games. Gaias already took many ideas from other games and that is how it should be. Reinventing the wheel usually doesn't turn out well. Oh and by the way Wow is WORSE than Gaias in many aspects both with and without expansions. This is exactly what these comparisons to games are about: Taking ASPECTS of a game as an inspiration. So if I say (as an example) that the Magmadar boss fight in Wow is cool and could be used as an inspiration, does it mean I want the whole Gaias to be like Wow? Not in my book at least, but if one can only think in totals I can see why the assumption would be made.

I hope it is clear now. If by now someone writes 'So you want Gaias to be like WoW ' it is really a facepalm and an insult to themselves only.

 

[ALEXz407]

At this point, are we still trying to fix the game or fix the players?

It's not "fix", it's more like making first impression from the game brighter and "addictive" with analysis of new player behaviour and placing things in such order, that will keep player entertained and informed with good pace.

Multiplayer games usually have some kind of in-game analytics. So developers can analyze where most players go / leave / stuck / other things, and optimize game design to make better first impression and better immersion for players.
Warcraft is session based, that's why developers can gather feedback only from community, or sometimes from short playsessions.
I assume that developers are guided by common sense in this case and design game as they think it would be better. I mean, it's great - that's how masterpieces are born.

But "masterpiece" not equal "popular". Well, sometimes these two words combine, but often masterpiece can be known only by small community, or popular game is another clone of same game but it known in the all world.

So, if you want to do some work in this direction, ask community. I think it's possible to gather some "experimental" data with newbies behaviour. For example, we can host some games only for newbies and share game replays. So you can analyze what players do when first time play in Gaias.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Then again, how many newbies does WC3 still draw in every day...? This is a decade old game...

 

[Tal'Rarity]

Then again, how many newbies does WC3 still draw in every day...? This is a decade old game...

You'd be surprised.