[Altered Melee] Simple Naga Race Template

[Homor]

Hi, I'd like some feedback on this little project I'm working on. Its a race template for an extended version of the Naga, with its own techtree and new units. I'd like some feedback on whether the race is fun to play and if its balanced properly.

You can find it here.

The gameplay for the map is pretty bare bones as of this writing, you can fight stationary creeps and swim around the map, but there isn't much to explore. Right now you just gather resources and prepare to assault your foes. Explore the new units and buildings and see what you think!

Edited to clarify that this is a map project, not a request.

 

[Unregret]

The one in Project Nirvana, or you can check one inside Tides of Darkness. They are well-balanced and unique to play.

 

[Homor]

The one in Project Nirvana, or you can check one inside Tides of Darkness. They are well-balanced and unique to play.

I can't seem to find either, mind sharing a link?

 

[Unregret]

WarCraft III: Nirvana - Release 1.0 file
Power of Corruption mod for Warcraft III: Frozen Throne
Kam Check his BtT maps.

 

[Riki]

Also, you can try my Nightscale Naga if you are looking for something very unique and different from how Naga are normally made.

 

[Homor]

These are really interesting and I'll be sure to check them out, but I'd also really like feedback on my own map.

 

[Riki]

These are really interesting and I'll be sure to check them out, but I'd also really like feedback on my own map.

I downloaded your map, but I can't test it due to my version of the game.

 

[Homor]

I downloaded your map, but I can't test it due to my version of the game.

What version are you running? Are you able to open it in World Editor? If you are, you can probably save it and make it compatible.

 

[Homor]

Here's a more updated version for you fine people, with more units and features!

Naga Techtree Update

www.hiveworkshop.com

 

[cleavinghammer]

Brutes still have Submerge.

Murloc Den can't produce Reavers.

Tidehunters and Gorgons both have Mana Burn.

I don't know about giving non-hero casters an AoE spell, I know I've abused it to hell and back on different maps (especially with amphibious units for hit-and-runs).

 

[Homor]

Brutes still have Submerge.

Murloc Den can't produce Reavers.

Tidehunters and Gorgons both have Mana Burn.

I don't know about giving non-hero casters an AoE spell, I know I've abused it to hell and back on different maps (especially with amphibious units for hit-and-runs).

Brutes are meant to have Submerge. If the animation isn't working right, I can fix it. If the description says he can't, I'll fix that too.

I think Reavers are meant to be produced by the town hall? I'll look into it and try to fix things up to be more consistent.

I'll give Tidehunters something different. Manaburn on a standard ranged unit seems a little unbalanced and unfitting.

That might have to be balanced out. But that depends on if I want this to be a campaign-style race or a melee-compatible race.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Both animation and tooltip yes, although as far as I can tell they are invisible when submerged.

For the reavers, it seems odd for a combat unit to be produced at the main building. Admittedly some games do that (Dawn of War) but in that case it's a deliberately weak scout unit and the same for every faction.

 

[Duckfarter]

Heres a long, I guess negative list of things I think seem a bit unbalanced. Unbalanced can be fun of course but if you strive for balance then maybe consider some of them... I use other standard units to compare with the new naga units, my small knowledge of melee and time with warcraft 3, since I am not a melee player I wouldnt be able to make exact balance statements. I guess if you made a test map to play against a computer or other player using a regular race it would make testing for some people easier.

I dont believe fun comes solely from having units that are too strong, there needs to be a sense of accomplishment and fairness too it, like a kodo beast moves slow but when you devour a unit that feels good. Having a bunch of strong powerful frost wyrms feels good because it took a lot of time to build them and they move slow but deal much damage. Rushing an enemy with ghouls can feel good if you overrun them but ghouls are weak and if you fail you are behind the other player so there is risk involved.

List:
I would scrap Submerge altogether. An equivalent would be Crypt Fiend with the burrow ability that affects a single unit. Its also landbased which allows any way to detect invisible units work. For Submerged units those same reveals dont work all the time.

The reaver could function. It appears the naga race is strong at first but takes a while longer to upgrade to new tiers. Buying reavers hinders the ability to buy workers, but why more workers when you dont need a spawning ground. It has a lot of hit points and damage as well for that cost. Another balance could also be to increase the build time.

Snap Dragon is very powerful. It makes the Murloc Tidehunter pretty useless since one Snap Dragon can defeat two Murloc Tidehunters. The 350 movement speed of the Snap Dragon and its ability is also very powerful.

The upgrades affecting almost every unit seems unbalanced.

Being able to traverse water seems unbalanced. This is highly dependent on the terrain of the map of course.

Naga Mutant Brute having 320 movement speed seems unbalanced.

Crushing Wave seems unbalanced.

Rejuvenation seems unbalanced. Although considering the units HP its not that unbalanced. I feel it should have a lesser ability, then require an upgrade to get rejuvenation and more mana, like any other caster unit. 400 mana at the start seems like a lot. Per heaps 300 considering its low health... units also usually start with about 33 or 50% of mana available, but the Tidesage and other Naga units start with 100% mana...

Mana Burn seems unbalanced.

Sea Drake having 350 movement speed seems unbalanced. It should be equivalent to Frost Wyrm and Chimera. I also dont see the reason for 2 attack types, theyre basically the same. Its just confusing.

Dragon Turtle seems too fast with 270 movement speed, devour ability and good at destroying buildings. It should be more equivalent to kodo beast or tanks.

Naga Siren and Gorgon are pretty similar. Sure they have different useful abilities but its hard to upgrade both and Gorgon has stronger stats.

The Naga units have very high life regeneration. I feel it should be equivalent to human or orc units. So instead of 1.00 or 0.50 be more like 0.25. An interesting mechanic would be if they only regenerate in water or nearby a special building and having a greater regeneration rate of course.

The upgrades lack or has bad information. For example Oceanic Regeneration that simply states that the units get increased life regeneration and Antediluvian Fortitude that does nothing by the way.

Murloc Den costs a lot of wood and doesnt seem like a good alternative to build at the start, compared to spawning grounds. There seems to be something off about that. Even if it was cheaper I wouldnt build it until another tier of the town hall because all the good units and upgrades require it anyway.

The murlocs have the same voice lines which is not very pleasing and although a minor thing I would try to do something about that.

Having a scroll of healing in the shop also feels unbalanced.

 

[Homor]

I think I might make two versions of this techtree. A "campaign" one where the units keep their more OP abilities, and a "melee friendly" one. I'll work on balancing out the more stupidly OP things first, like the lightning fast heavy units and more OP abilities. But I still some of the more powerful abilities and stats of some units. So balancing the race is kind of a balancing act.

 

[Duckfarter]

Thanks for replying to the feedback. Unless you already thought so... if youre going to make two versions Id suggest make sure to pick one and complete it, then create the other one. Otherwise youll risk to lose your balance and fall over. Id start with the melee friendly one since itll contain the basics of the race and anything for the campaign can then be purposefully added. Itll give you a clear goal and also help with the feedback and time spent since working on both at the same time seems confusing and unnecessarily time demanding.

 

[Banelingline]

Use of a made-up Sea Drakes bothers me in a way I'm not entirely sure how to explain, and it seems to be a very bland Big Endgame Flyer. But there isn't all that much in the air for Naga. The only canonical option I know of would be the assorted floating cephalopod things, as part of the Old God associates.

Getting somebody to tweak the Tidehunter model to be properly spiked would make it a great addition instead of a so-so, using four of the same "root" model is a very obvious and awkward case of stop-gap development. As is having two cases of Mana Burn and Slowing Poison.

Also the Orb of Venom is already sold by the Ancient of Wonders. An Orb of Cold toning down the Orb of Frost to fit in would probably work better?

Currently, it's missing an upgrade separation and three Heroes. For the former, main one that comes to mind is tool-user versus war-beast. Maybe drop the Tiderunner for a Hydra or Spider Crab? Or the Tidesage for a "proper" Makrura spellcaster?

For Heroes, there's the very obvious High Warlord Naj'entus model for a fairly typical Strength Hero, and a particularly silly option for a Mur'gul Hero would be this fatty. You can also use a Naga Centaur, though that'll need a bit of converting since it's Reforged. Check other race projects for ideas on this part.

 

[stein123]

You can also use a Naga Centaur, though that'll need a bit of converting since it's Reforged. Check other race projects for ideas on this part.

Ujimasa Hojo made a couple of naga centaur models, they're on the model section

 

[Homor]

New Update Added!

This isn't a huge update or anything. I just made a bunch of balance changes to lower the movement speed of the bigger Naga units, decrease their massive regeneration speed and for some units, reduced the damage. Also, the Naga Mutant Brute no longer has Submerge. Submerge itself is now locked behind a tier-3 town hall. Oh, and now Antediluvian Fortitude actually works. It gives you a fun reason to consider actually using Mur'Gul units.

Notes:
- Next update will change the model for the ranged Mur'Gul, swap the Orb of Venom for an Orb of Cold, and will add new Hero units.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Maybe the Sea Drake could be tied to water, say it has better stats over water / has worse stats over land, or maybe has the Tornado passive-cycloning when flying above water.

 

[Banelingline]

Ujimasa Hojo made a couple of naga centaur models, they're on the model section

Even typing in the keywords that are specifically in the post itself, they don't turn up. Actually started a thread looking for their "canon" additional, remembered the kitbashed Makrura+Siren assets, spent 10 minutes using various terms, and nothing came up.

Seriously, the hell is up with that?

double-checks

...Why does the search not have the "useful/simple" state in the default filter?

 

[Homor]

Even typing in the keywords that are specifically in the post itself, they don't turn up. Actually started a thread looking for their "canon" additional, remembered the kitbashed Makrura+Siren assets, spent 10 minutes using various terms, and nothing came up.

Seriously, the hell is up with that?

double-checks

...Why does the search not have the "useful/simple" state in the default filter?

"Useful/simple" and "awaiting update" are your best friends.

 

[Homor]

Maybe the Sea Drake could be tied to water, say it has better stats over water / has worse stats over land, or maybe has the Tornado passive-cycloning when flying above water.

That sounds like an absolutely awesome gameplay mechanic, but unfortunately its something I really don't know how to do.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Give it the Submerge ability, able to move in and be invisible in water.

 

[Banelingline]

Give it the Submerge ability, able to move in and be invisible in water.

Sounds like more of a thing for this model, as an obvious water-based creature. Which, while still janky, is at least not completely made up. And could have the benefit of using "secondary" Siren upgrades, even without the spellcasting.

 

[Retera]

Use of a made-up Sea Drakes bothers me in a way I'm not entirely sure how to explain

I didn't try this naga bundle yet, but I know that in 2008 when some friends were working on a Naga race, they downloaded an asset called Sea Drake that we used for several years. In that mod, the Sea Drake asset was among a list that I was asked to remove because nobody recorded the credits for the assets that we had downloaded and ultimately I eventually tried to remake all the custom assets in the entire mod to replace them with our own that we did not need to be concerned with credits for.

The asset that I created to replace the Sea Drake back at that time was this Sky Hydra, based on the premise that maybe Naga could tame a hydra and maybe a hydra could grow wings. Is that inspirational or interesting for you guys at all?

Not sure, just thought I would drop my 2 cents. That is a 2008 model that I made, so obviously I'm 14 years smarter today than I was back then about how to make MDX models. But it might be useful for some inspiration.

I need to try this bundle later.

 

[Homor]

Man, I didn't expect this project to pop off like this! Even my man Retera was here. This was always just meant to be a simple tweaking of the naga units to fit my personal preference. I feel like the big, positive response I got might give me a duty to reach for the stars. I dunno yet, though.

 

[Retera]

Even my man Retera was here.

Well, don't confuse me with past Retera. Some days, "past Retera" is like my idol on this site. He did everything, I am only a human that exists today.

reach for the stars

We had 20 years. Did we make the perfect Naga race yet? Now you got me wondering.

I have seen many, obviously. A person could decide to like any of them. But was there any Naga race that felt like, "Oh yeah, this is the finished version of Blizzard's Naga race," when we played it?

I am not sure I ever played one that felt quite like that. For me, they all had the touch and the creativity of the author who made them. It does not particularly help that Blizzard's provided Naga race is overpowered and recycles many abilities from the original four races, as though made in a hurry. So then, maybe something like Kam's Naga race in Beyond the Throne is the only way to properly achieve the original vision that Frozen Throne was advertising, because the other races would have to have a different balance accordingly (and boats) to compensate in a combat against an amphibious Naga race.

So, maybe the idyllic solution is not physically possible. Perhaps the only way we could do it would be to build a universe space time machine and cross over into an alternate universe timeline where Blizzard created Frozen Throne as an expansion that did not add an item shop, caster, and hero to each race, and instead added a shipyard -- then added Naga to melee. If anybody gets a copy of Frozen Throne from one of those alternate timelines, be sure to post it online where I can play it. (Along with a copy of Reforged from a timeline where World of Warcraft was never invented.)

But seriously, I tried your Naga race with some cheats on tonight and I know that's not really the full experience but I think the only thing that stuck out to me as something I wouldn't do personally was to have the Ujimasa Hojo reskin building's birth animation set to Orc Birth with Sunken Ruins textures. I'd probably swap that out to the traditional Naga Birth if that was me. Also the Murloc Den building's birth animation was crazy and momentarily shot out Shrine of Azshara wings above the top of the ground in a wide area as it finished. Looked like probably a visual accident, but it's very fixable.

I would probably also give the Gorgon a different spell animation. It was clearly using a special case animation meant for some petrifying kind of AoE cone, even if I cast something like spirit link.

But maybe these kind of factors and design choices are another reason why it feels impossible to me to create "the Blizzard Naga race, but finished." They used different tools than World Editor to make this kind of stuff, and they could polish anything and edit anything. If they wanted, they could make "Only while in water" life regeration type in the Unit Editor, and then give that to Naga. Maybe that's why Naga have 2.0 hp regeneration -- perhaps that was an attempt to give them Undead style regeneration, but on water, and the developers deleted the "Only while in water" option at the last second?

 

[Homor]

Well, don't confuse me with past Retera. Some days, "past Retera" is like my idol on this site. He did everything, I am only a human that exists today.


We had 20 years. Did we make the perfect Naga race yet? Now you got me wondering.

I have seen many, obviously. A person could decide to like any of them. But was there any Naga race that felt like, "Oh yeah, this is the finished version of Blizzard's Naga race," when we played it?

I am not sure I ever played one that felt quite like that. For me, they all had the touch and the creativity of the author who made them. It does not particularly help that Blizzard's provided Naga race is overpowered and recycles many abilities from the original four races, as though made in a hurry. So then, maybe something like Kam's Naga race in Beyond the Throne is the only way to properly achieve the original vision that Frozen Throne was advertising, because the other races would have to have a different balance accordingly (and boats) to compensate in a combat against an amphibious Naga race.

So, maybe the idyllic solution is not physically possible. Perhaps the only way we could do it would be to build a universe space time machine and cross over into an alternate universe timeline where Blizzard created Frozen Throne as an expansion that did not add an item shop, caster, and hero to each race, and instead added a shipyard -- then added Naga to melee. If anybody gets a copy of Frozen Throne from one of those alternate timelines, be sure to post it online where I can play it. (Along with a copy of Reforged from a timeline where World of Warcraft was never invented.)

But seriously, I tried your Naga race with some cheats on tonight and I know that's not really the full experience but I think the only thing that stuck out to me as something I wouldn't do personally was to have the Ujimasa Hojo reskin building's birth animation set to Orc Birth with Sunken Ruins textures. I'd probably swap that out to the traditional Naga Birth if that was me. Also the Murloc Den building's birth animation was crazy and momentarily shot out Shrine of Azshara wings above the top of the ground in a wide area as it finished. Looked like probably a visual accident, but it's very fixable.

I would probably also give the Gorgon a different spell animation. It was clearly using a special case animation meant for some petrifying kind of AoE cone, even if I cast something like spirit link.

But maybe these kind of factors and design choices are another reason why it feels impossible to me to create "the Blizzard Naga race, but finished." They used different tools than World Editor to make this kind of stuff, and they could polish anything and edit anything. If they wanted, they could make "Only while in water" life regeration type in the Unit Editor, and then give that to Naga. Maybe that's why Naga have 2.0 hp regeneration -- perhaps that was an attempt to give them Undead style regeneration, but on water, and the developers deleted the "Only while in water" option at the last second?

Given the way DesignerDave talked about TFT's production, I think the naga were finished. The Warcraft 3 development process was long and difficult, and they wanted to keep things light and easy for the expansion. They intended for it to be done relatively quick, painlessly and for it to be the only expansion. I think the Naga were always meant to be a simplistic tech tree used to spice up the campaign, and they never had any intention of balancing them for melee. The high health, attack and life regeneration was probably because they were intended to be challenging enemies and feel really cool and rewarding when the player got to control them. What we got might have been the original intent from the very beginning.

So, any attempt to "finish" the Naga race the "perfect" way will never work, because you're not "finishing" anything. You're creating something entirely new. Should Myrmidons be nerfed to Tier 1 units? Should they be locked behind tier 2-3? Should Mur'Gul units be an important part of the techtree? Should you be using units that don't originate from WoW lore? The true answer might just be "however you prefer it."

As for this projects ambitious, I've decided I'm gonna keep them reasonable. A slew of new abilities and assets would be cool, but it would bloat the scope of the project and make it take forever. For right now, I'm just going to focus on making a Naga race that's slightly more balanced for Melee and appeals to my personal preferences.

Also, nothing wrong with turning on cheats to view all the units. I do that constantly lol