Showing a good example?

[Xonok]

Over time there have been lots of people that come here, submit a resource and then leave due to being disappointed by its rejection, often feeling, that their resource has been done injustice.
I agree with having the high standards, but must also note that it drives away newer people.

1. They are immature brats that should just grow up.
OR
2. We should keep an amount of threads to show an example of how they should be responding and possibly link to them in the resource submission rules. (Showing them a good example)

 

[fladdermasken]

FYI standards here are pretty low. Anything passing the bar "functional" has a high chance of getting approved.

 

[Xonok]

FYI standards here are pretty low. Anything passing the bar "functional" has a high chance of getting approved.

I've noticed that too, but in some cases the definition of functional can vary a lot. A person that just opened the editor yesterday won't know what to consider good.
A person that opened the editor last month will have reached some level of skill, but still next to nothing compared to what the standards require.

 

[edo494]

I made fully working custom reincarnation and still got rejected, so no not everything that works will be approved.

I still agree that standards in spells section are on different level then in Jass section for instance

I agree with you Xonok on this tho

 

[fladdermasken]

No a definition is per definition definite. It's not about good; it's about a resource not being broken.

 

[Bernkastel]

I don't understand how the first one is an option.

 

[fladdermasken]

I made fully working custom reincarnation and still got rejected, so no not everything that works will be approved.

If it leaks, it isn't fully working.

 

[edo494]

it didnt leak, but it had some other flaws(mainly concept and algorithmic)

 

[fladdermasken]

Moderator notes from your thread

• Your Start function leaks a location. The solution is to move the line that removes the location to the end of the function before you null the location to assure that it runs everytime.
• Since this is JASS, you don't need locations at all. Use coordinates. Instead of GetUnitLoc, use GetUnitX and GetUnitY.
• I would totally recommend trashing the terrain deformation. It leaks and can't be destroyed.
• SetUnitState(u, UNIT_STATE_LIFE, ...) -> SetWidgetLife(u, ...)
• GetUnitState(u, UNIT_STATE_LIFE) -> GetWidgetLife(u)
• Don't use a local group for enumeration, use a global one.
• set first = null <- You can remove this line and be unaffected.
• if( not( first == null ) ) then -> if (first != null) then
• Rather than repeating calls such as the 'GetHandleId(t)' call in your SpawnGrave function, you could cache that into a variable (local).
• It's more efficient than repeating it over and over again.
• This applies to the rest of the script.
• http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/2188403-post2.html

 

[I3lackDeath]

Could someone kindly explain to me what the topic of this thread really is?
Bashing Hive's "high" (are you kidding me?) standards?
Giving noobs a "harsh time" ? (missing examples for this one, ladies)
Talking about how unfair moderation (seemingly of one specific resoure section) is?

 

[Bernkastel]

I believe that he only wants to express himself.
The last time I did that I got... A.. You know.. A red round thingy.

 

[edo494]

Moderator notes from your thread

• Your Start function leaks a location. The solution is to move the line that removes the location to the end of the function before you null the location to assure that it runs everytime.
• Since this is JASS, you don't need locations at all. Use coordinates. Instead of GetUnitLoc, use GetUnitX and GetUnitY.
• I would totally recommend trashing the terrain deformation. It leaks and can't be destroyed.
• SetUnitState(u, UNIT_STATE_LIFE, ...) -> SetWidgetLife(u, ...)
• GetUnitState(u, UNIT_STATE_LIFE) -> GetWidgetLife(u)
• Don't use a local group for enumeration, use a global one.
• set first = null <- You can remove this line and be unaffected.
• if( not( first == null ) ) then -> if (first != null) then
• Rather than repeating calls such as the 'GetHandleId(t)' call in your SpawnGrave function, you could cache that into a variable (local).
• It's more efficient than repeating it over and over again.
• This applies to the rest of the script.
• http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/2188403-post2.html

ok, maybe it did leak after all

but it worked

 

[I3lackDeath]

Self-expression/exhibitionism? In Hive? Why would one do that.

Oh, and late me take this chance to say that this:

I agree with having the high standards, but must also note that it drives away newer people.

is bullshit. High standards? WHERE!?
Also, should this place really be about attracting as many people as possible? What good would come out of that? Making Hive even more depending on social aspects, completely transforming it into an online portal for attention seekers, friendship requesters and the like?

For as long as I have been active in the Icons Section, I have found, like, two people who were "chased away" by "harsh" critique, both from the community as a whole aswell as moderators. In one case, it's my opinion that the reactions indeed were harsh and sometimes unreasonable, but the respective user was unable to properly deal with things, and "ragequit", as they say.
The others were too dumb and/or lazy to put any real effort into their submissions, either because they provided shitty resources that violated rules, or went "fuck this, I ain't motivated enough". Not anyone's job to prove them otherwise.
Also, those people could just voice their opinions, but hardly anyone ever does, or did. Ergo, they themselves are to blame if that's the case.

2. We should keep an amount of threads to show an example of how they should be responding and possibly link to them in the resource submission rules. (Showing them a good example)

This might be a reasonable suggestion, but should we? Really?
Should we take every child by its hands and feed them everything with a tiny spoon, bit by bit?
Best learning experiences come from making mistakes. If ya can't deal with being told you've made a mistake and why, that's too bad. Point 1 applies in this scenario: grow the frick up.
(I still think that Hive should have an age limit, aswell as an IQ test.)

 

[Xonok]

Could someone kindly explain to me what the topic of this thread really is?
Bashing Hive's "high" (are you kidding me?) standards?
Giving noobs a "harsh time" ? (missing examples for this one, ladies)
Talking about how unfair moderation (seemingly of one specific resoure section) is?

Just wondering whether we should just dismiss the people as immature brats(the people described in OP) or give them some example to follow, because at the moment all they can see are approved resources of incredibly high level(compared to them).

Perhaps the third way is just making more tutorials and learning to better direct newer people towards them? I'm not sure what the solution is.

 

[I3lackDeath]

(...) because at the moment all they can see are approved resources of incredibly high level(compared to them).

No one is born a master, as they say. People usually hone their skills before being able to create submissions of higher quality. Common sense, really.

I'm not sure what the solution is.

This suggests there is a problem. No matter how hard I am looking, I can't find any. (V) (;.. (V)

 

[RED BARON]

My first stuff was pretty damn crappy, still I stuck around to improve and heck, I am still here

 

[Daffa]

@RedBaron

stuck

It's Stick

@Thread
For some reason I agree with OP's Statement, especially the first one :

1. They are immature brats that should just grow up.

That's how many people is, if you like to wonder around Maps Section you see this problem a lot, I have seen this one a lot since I have been at Map Section for months.

2. We should keep an amount of threads to show an example of how they should be responding and possibly link to them in the resource submission rules. (Showing them a good example)

I think this is good but most people are ignorant and always result submitting resources not enough to fit the Submission Rules.

 

[Bernkastel]

And you're being immature by not being able to accept them.

 

[Daffa]

In other hand, also some more things :

submit a resource and then leave due to being disappointed by its rejection, often feeling, that their resource has been done injustice

Actually, if they're more clever than that, they should have use Resources Moderation Forum for the reason for Rejection and for compensation of the Rejection.

I agree with having the high standards, but must also note that it drives away newer people.

High Standard? Not as high as WC3C at least, and to me the standard is quite low [especially Maps, even Lacking level Maps can be approved]

 

[fladdermasken]

@RedBaron

It's Stick

It's okay I also don't knew what imperfect tense is.

 

[Daffa]

Bleh, lets just ignore it shall we? Trying to help him, that's all.

 

[fladdermasken]

Hey, I am trying to help you!

 

[Daffa]

Okay then, that's fair enough

Back to topic

 

[RED BARON]

Well this thread appears to be close to over, I would just voice that the negative critique or rejections are not at bad thing, they often lead to improvements and renewed interest.

And here at Hive I also frequently see how a resource that might have been fairly negatively seen, is greeted with praise if the author updates it with fixes and improvements.

@RedBaron

It's Stick

lolz

 

[Daffa]

Yes, updated resources tend to always receive positive feedback in a jiffy if the author is accepting critiques form older versions from reviewers and customers.

 

[Ralle]

To be honest. People who leave as soon as they meet any kind of friction are possibly not the ones we want here. I do however think we should pay attention to how we phrase things as to not be very harsh. I can imagine that on a daily basis a moderator sees a lot of very bad stuff and gets more short-sentenced over time. Why would one spend their time writing a long explanation when that could have taken more time than making the actual resource?

 

[edo494]

maybe you(moderators, admins and the chief of course ) could have some moderator advices, which would be copy-pasted into the moderation for different types, like leaks and stuff that is so general

That would eliminate the need to type, and if it was quite generic(with some links to tutorials maybe) it would be universal for every leak possible

 

[Xonok]

To be honest. People who leave as soon as they meet any kind of friction are possibly not the ones we want here. I do however think we should pay attention to how we phrase things as to not be very harsh. I can imagine that on a daily basis a moderator sees a lot of very bad stuff and gets more short-sentenced over time. Why would one spend their time writing a long explanation when that could have taken more time than making the actual resource?

Probably the best approach is just directing them to tutorials. Especially when there's some specific thing that they've done worse than other parts of that resource.
I occasionally see this, actually.

 

[Rui]

True that, Ralle.

I didn't mind writing reviews for 2 or 3 hours, but it kind of gets to you when you know the author might not even look at it, understand it, or, most importantly, truly improve from it.

 

[SeedinAethyr]

I felt sorta bad when the review I wrote for The Dungeon of Level 1000 (it took about an hour to write) was completly ignored by the mapmaker.
He didn't write a single comment in response to it, he just continued to flame the other reviewers.
I do think that the mapmaker went under the category of

immature brats that should just grow up.

 

[Daffa]

Ralle, your point is very good, as Xonok said I recommend this to be done :

2. We should keep an amount of threads to show an example of how they should be responding and possibly link to them in the resource submission rules. (Showing them a good example)

Should be a good idea

@Seedin
I still remember that day

 

[Adiktuz]

Probably the best approach is just directing them to tutorials. Especially when there's some specific thing that they've done worse than other parts of that resource.
I occasionally see this, actually.

I think its better if someone registers to this site, there will already be a message that leads him to the tutorials page...

why?

because based on my experience, these "brats" go away even in the slightest way of pointing out errors in their resources... even when someone tells them to read tuts or gives a link, they don't even bother...

and maybe also add to the message a link to the rules page...

 

[Daffa]

Yes, most

Spoiler

brats

leave because we point out the weakness of their resources, this happen very often, in map section for example, some user will leave after they got their simple map which is not allowed here got rejected, or maybe worse, they will flame us for pointing out those weakness.

I presume leading them tutorial after registering is a good idea to handle newbies.

 

[Xonok]

Yes, most

Spoiler

brats

leave because we point out the weakness of their resources, this happen very often, in map section for example, some user will leave after they got their simple map which is not allowed here got rejected, or maybe worse, they will flame us for pointing out those weakness.

I presume leading them tutorial after registering is a good idea to handle newbies.

Actually this is quite a nice idea. The next step would probably figuring out which tutorials should come first/are more relevant.

 

[Daffa]

Lets just make them read the rules first after they finish registering?

 

[Bernkastel]

An honest opinion.
If they don't care about your tutorials and all that. Then you're not supposed to care about them. But instead you've gathered here to whine.

 

[Xonok]

An honest opinion.
If they don't care about your tutorials and all that. Then you're not supposed to care about them. But instead you've gathered here to whine.

I agree with this. Although I don't consider it whining, but rather wondering.

 

[T. D. W.]

I must be with the reason, if users are too weak to handle feedbacks for their resources, they should simply go away
sometimes they improve themself, my case with my map, i began with a dota-replica, ended with a very great AoS map (still finishing it)
and there is some things i see weird on hive
like this
this map ^, is closed, although that, it is pending in the map section + it is from 2009 + it only appeared today for the first time i saw it

Back to the main topic, i have a suggestion that is very good to my thoughts:
Create a new kind of moderators, "like social moderators" they won't moderate spells/maps etc..., they will just cycle throwout the site and seeing bad conversations as for that dungeon of lvl 1000
you may think that no one will want to do this job, i assure you that many would do it, beginning by myself
Those moderators should be from the "VERY" active kind of people on hive

 

[Adiktuz]

^ If I get that, there'd already be quite a list of newbies that will be thrown out... hahahahahahaha!

 

[Daffa]

@Adiktuz
Lol xD

@Jad
That's not a bad suggestion, I really like that. you know, I still remember that thread you mention xD

 

[Archian]

How to: Give Constructive Criticism

Read the Artist's Description
This may sound silly, but it's such a practical idea that so many seem to forget. Reading what the artists say is imperative to leaving a comment that is helpful. They may tell you what medium they used, the time it took to create it, if they're looking for suggestions, or if they even want criticism. If any artist every makes a note about not wanting any criticism, then don't feel compelled to post something that's analytical. An artist will post such a note for a reason, and there's no need to critique something if it won't be appreciated.

So what there's no description? Then just comment at your discretion. If you can see others have left criticisms that were poorly received, you may not want to critique the piece, unless you like getting a rise out of people.

Know Your Audience
If it's possible, take note of how artists respond to criticism. If they seem very thankful for it, then go for the critique, but if they don't seem very appreciative for it, there's nothing wrong with just pointing out the good points. It's also a good idea to know the artist's age, but that can't always be found. Generally, young teenagers will be a lot more sensitive about their art and more likely to get offended easily. Beginners also may need an extra boost of encouragement to help them pursue a developing talent.

Also, certain artists work in certain styles that you may not be familiar with, so something that you may consider a flaw was actually something intended by the artist. The genres that tend to have this problem the most are anime ("the eyes are too big") and fantasy ("the dragon shouldn't have that many claws").


Choosing Your Words
Comment on the Art, not the Artist.
While this may seem a little trivial and even unnecessary, avoiding personal words such as "you", "your" and even "I" or "me" can make a world of difference. Art is very personal to its creators, and using such words tend to make the artist feel attacked, even if that's not the case. Instead of saying "your feet need work" try saying "perhaps his feet would look better with a little more shading."

Avoid Demanding Words
Speaking of "need", don't use it. In fact, avoid "need", “should, and any other word that demands the artist do something with his/her work. Instead, offer suggestions. Replace "the eye needs more detail" with something like "adding more detail to the eye would give it more depth". That way, not only do you explain why adding more detail would be an improvement, but you let the artist decide what he wants with his work.

Using Slang and Txt Speak
To keep it simple, don't use them. You don't have to use completely proper grammar and not too many artists will yell at you for a misplaced modifier or a split infinitive, but showing a general understanding of a language will make you seem more knowledgeable and lessen the chances of someone getting very annoyed with your criticism. Avoid long threads of punctuation, like rows of exclamation points (!!!!!!!) or a lot of ellipses, and spell out words like "you" and "are". Because really now, you don't save that much time by forgetting two letters.

Being Detailed
Saying things like "I don't know why, but so and so looks weird" isn't going to be a lot of help to the artist. If you don't know why something looks odd, then how will the creator? It's very important to explain clearly why something looks like it could need improvement; otherwise the artist will probably get frustrated. For example, rather than saying "the hand looks weird" try elaborating on what makes it look weird. Is it the shading? A lack of detail? The size and muscle structure? Adding those little tidbits can make a comment incredibly helpful.

Constructing the Constructive Criticism

Balance the Good with the Bad
This is what constructive criticism is all about. Letting an artist know his/her strong points and the areas that could use some improving. Sometimes people forget that little "constructive" part in this term, and tend to focus too much on the negative aspects of a work. There is nothing wrong with telling someone know that the anatomy of the hand looks a little weak. Now the artist knows he/she needs to practice drawing hands more. But, on the flip side, there's also nothing wrong with telling someone that the eyes in a picture look beautiful. Then the artist knows how to make eyes look in future drawings.

Beginning and Ending on a Positive Note
Starting on a pleasant note with the artist is a good way to begin a critique. The artist will generally feel good about the strong points in the picture and will be more likely to accept some suggestions and criticisms after hearing the good news. However, it's not a good idea to end on a negative note. That will leave the artist feeling a little unhappy and maybe cranky or irritated, making the likelihood of an angry artist yelling at you very high. Try ending with a sum up of the good points in the drawing and letting the artist know that they have done a good job.


Final Advice

You Don't Always Need to Criticize
Sometimes you just may not see anything that you feel needs to be critiqued, and that's fine. This doesn't mean you shouldn't say anything. In fact, sometimes just adding a comment that mentions how great a work is can really brighten an artist's day.

Some People Just Can't Handle It
Sometimes, no matter how well written your critique is, some people just do not like criticism and will react negatively to it. If you get a few flames here and there for a critique, don't let it stop you from giving constructive criticism in the future. This is generally pretty rare, however, so if you find yourself getting a lot of negative remarks, you may want reevaluate the way you go about criticizing someone.

Practice, Practice, Practice!
Now, this may sound like something that a critic would tell an artist, but the only way your critiques are going to improve is if you keep working on it. It may take some time to "perfect" a critique, but the more you work on it, the more naturally it will come to you and the better you'll get at helping others.

 

[fladdermasken]

there's no need to critique something if it won't be appreciated

Yes, but on the other end it should be noted that it's pretty weirdass to post something in a critic environment if you're not looking for criticism.

Generally, young teenagers will be a lot more sensitive about their art and more likely to get offended easily

Yes, but invested artists are generally more uptight about their art than people who only spent an hour on a step-by-step GIMP tutorial. :V

something that you may consider a flaw was actually something intended by the artist

I hear this quite a lot in the terrain board. "No really those rocks are supposed to be extremely stretched, misplaced and buttugly because they represent my bulimic childhood and the feeling of constantly being ostracized for not fitting in." In short: GTFO people. Emotions in art isn't bad at all, but I think there's a point where ugly and misplaced, is just ugly and misplaced, and any intentions you may or may not have had sure as hell didn't change your art for the better.

Saying things like "I don't know why, but so and so looks weird" isn't going to be a lot of help to the artist. If you don't know why something looks odd, then how will the creator?

Yes, elaborate is good. But I also believe constructive criticism doesn't always need to come in verbal vomit form. Don't drag it out painfully to no end because you can; leave it short and concise. I also don't like it when people try to enumerate all the flaws they can into one big post. It's just a big ass road block. Let people take their speed bumps one at a time.

To keep it simple, keep it simple.

Sometimes you just may not see anything that you feel needs to be critiqued, and that's fine.

People should really take this to heart. Poking holes in something because you can't find any doesn't make you look smart, it makes you look like an idiot with a hole puncher.

This is what constructive criticism is all about. Letting an artist know his/her strong points and the areas that could use some improving.

I'd like to change this to "making an artist realize what needs to be improved and get him/her to ACTUALLY improve it."

unless you like getting a rise out of people

SO WHAT IF I DO?!

This is definitely a "know your audience" type of thing, but I'd be outright mean to some one if that would provoke progress.

 

[T. D. W.]

^ If I get that, there'd already be quite a list of newbies that will be thrown out... hahahahahahaha!

Not nessesary, this type of moderator will just help other moderators and admins, tracking double post necro posts ... Things that offend the rules and they are the first ones that should answer a report thread
So it is like the current moderators but with more like a policeman

 

[Orcnet]

My face when reading each page:

And omg Archian was here, so yeah I second to him

 

[Daffa]

@Orcnet
Really, are enjoying the thread?

@Archian
Amazing Information, that can prove useful, but Fladdermasken also has some point related to your post.

 

[eubz]

We have a lot of tutorials. Submitted resources are already good examples. And, before a user submit his resource he should be reminded of this:

Don't cry because your resource was rejected. Moderators are there for a reason.

 

[Daffa]

@Eubz
That doesn't visible to most people, they tend to skip it.

 

[Karassu]

Yeah, it's like...
"Oh yeah, spent the whole day making this resource and I'm tired now, I'm gonna upload this before I go to bed, and I think the moderator will give me DC rating! I'm so excited for the comments!"
and then...
*Uploading* *Waiting* *Uploaded* *Smiles*
"Yay! It's uploaded now!"
*After a few minutes*
Moderator Rating: Rejected
"Ouch!"
(And that feels like Chuck Norris heart rip with kick on the face combo)

 

[eubz]

@Eubz
That doesn't visible to most people, they tend to skip it.

I remember first time I uploaded my first resource, a map. I read all the submission rules particularly that line. The line isn't far from the upload button; why these people tend to skip reading it? Also, a huge percentage of this community do criticize almost every resource submitted by a user. A submitter should adhere to that and be not offended. Other criticisms maybe harsh but they should look into the content of the resource they have submitted. Does the resource meet the passing requirement of the site? We have a low level requirements actually. A user's submitted resource can be Approved with a 2/5 (lacking) rating.

Actually, the first map I submitted was totally rejected. I contacted the moderator why that was rejected and he told me it had many things to be done better: from terrain, leaking triggers, aesthetics, maps UI, the bad things actually. The moderator who rejected my map directed me to our huge amount of tutorials. There, I knew he was right.

A user should not feel bad whatever happened to his submitted resource. As I said, he can peep into any approved resources and set them as his example for his own. Our tutorial section is just one click away. One thing --> Never rush in doing anything; Rome is not built in a day.

Yeah, it's like...
"Oh yeah, spent the whole day making this resource and I'm tired now, I'm gonna upload this before I go to bed, and I think the moderator will give me DC rating! I'm so excited for the comments!"
and then...
*Uploading* *Waiting* *Uploaded* *Smiles*
"Yay! It's uploaded now!"
*After a few minutes*
Moderator Rating: Rejected
"Ouch!"
(And that feels like Chuck Norris heart rip with kick on the face combo)

And... this is a bad attitude.

 

[Daffa]

the first map I submitted was totally rejected.

Reminds me pretty much myself.

Yeah, it's like...
"Oh yeah, spent the whole day making this resource and I'm tired now, I'm gonna upload this before I go to bed, and I think the moderator will give me DC rating! I'm so excited for the comments!"
and then...
*Uploading* *Waiting* *Uploaded* *Smiles*
"Yay! It's uploaded now!"
*After a few minutes*
Moderator Rating: Rejected
"Ouch!"
(And that feels like Chuck Norris heart rip with kick on the face combo)

I don't do that, honestly, I got tons of maps in my folder but never upload them because of theyre simple maps + mostly they're not mine.

A user should not feel bad whatever happened to his submitted resource. As I said, he can peep into any approved resources and set them as his example for his own. Our tutorial section is just one click away. One thing --> Never rush in doing anything; Rome is not built in a day.

Yes, I agree pretty much with it

I remember first time I uploaded my first resource, a map. I read all the submission rules particularly that line. The line isn't far from the upload button; why these people tend to skip reading it? Also, a huge percentage of this community do criticize almost every resource submitted by a user. A submitter should adhere to that and be not offended. Other criticisms maybe harsh but they should look into the content of the resource they have submitted. Does the resource meet the passing requirement of the site? We have a low level requirements actually. A user's submitted resource can be Approved with a 2/5 (lacking) rating.

Why they skip it? Cuz they're lazy to read the rules. They wish for approved resources without reading the resources rules.