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Poor usability with save/load.

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Dr Super Good

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Gaias uses disc backed save and loading thanks to people like Nes and things. However how does one actually use it? The in game help is completely useless and allies are about as useful.

They all say I need to go into the saved file and copy out the load code manually into chat. However why go through all the effort to make a nice function and everything if that is the case? Must I really do that to load a cleric since that is basically the same as writing the code manually and loading (except with less bloat as I do not store my saves in functions).

I am 99% certain the entire point of these systems was to be able to get the codes to load themselves without much manual input. Why can I just not do -load Cleric and get my level 8 cleric? Must I really copy it from Cleric-8.txt?

For so much effort put into it you guys really missed describing something simple like how disc backed save/load even works. Obviously I could reverse engineer it from the jass script but since that is optimized it is taking a while.
 
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There is basicly no way around manually copying the save/load code.

The hack that allowed maps to write files to hard disc does not allow to read them automaticly without enabling local file support on your machine (this also somehow destroys compatibility for random players playing the map first-time, as the local file support requires one to re-start WC3 before).
As also I do not want players to execute a web-downloaded file for that (and making the changes manually is a complicated task), so this was the best compromise solution.


In the past, save/load codes had to be manually typed in (and copied with a specific code-capture software or even hand-written from a print-screen).
The disc approach cuts the middleman in a way that you do not have to transcribe the code in anymore. You just copy and paste it which saves both time and nerves (as you can not mistake a lowercase L and uppercase i and 1 anymore).


If you prefer writing down the code manually, you can always use -saveold. This is the classic WC3 style of saving.



And no, I will not use nestharus codeless save/load for the reason stated above. I don't want to break compatibility to random gamers.


The practice of copying save/load codes or using save/load codes in general have been there for ages. I don't see what is missing here, honestly.
 
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Gaias uses disc backed save and loading thanks to people like Nes and things. However how does one actually use it? The in game help is completely useless and allies are about as useful.

They all say I need to go into the saved file and copy out the load code manually into chat. However why go through all the effort to make a nice function and everything if that is the case? Must I really do that to load a cleric since that is basically the same as writing the code manually and loading (except with less bloat as I do not store my saves in functions).

I am 99% certain the entire point of these systems was to be able to get the codes to load themselves without much manual input. Why can I just not do -load Cleric and get my level 8 cleric? Must I really copy it from Cleric-8.txt?

For so much effort put into it you guys really missed describing something simple like how disc backed save/load even works. Obviously I could reverse engineer it from the jass script but since that is optimized it is taking a while.

Lol is it really that much of a hassle tp go into your gaias folder and copy/paste the save code? It even shows what lvl your saves are
 

Dr Super Good

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This still does not address the usability of actually explaining what happens. Why is what Zwiebelchen said (well an extract there of) not in the quests under the -save command?

I have lurked around chat long enough to know that automatic load systems are possible, although not the fastest. Knowing this information it is only natural to assume that if you save to disc you also read from disc (with special commands for those who have local files enabled). Not only did the -save command not make it clear that it actually writes it to a file but no where did it describe how to load said saved code.

Sure it is more newbie friendly to write saves like that, but it is not at all newbie friendly if you do not make it clear how to use them.

Something simple like "Saves the code to where WC3 is running from in the folder XXXX. Open the appropiate text file and copy the part between inverted commas starting with "-load" and paste it into chat next session to load your character. Automatic loading is not possible" would sort all this explaining and be a lot more newbie friendly.
 
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there is nothing wrong with the save/load i have fast enough computer to alt tab and be back in 1.5 seconds

make a shortcut to desktop so your gaias folder will be easy to access

now if thats to hard why not make your own game seems you got time too ?
 

Dr Super Good

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i have fast enough computer to alt tab and be back in 1.5 seconds
I have a fast enough computer to play both WC3 and SC2 at the same time with continuous alt tab-ing between them. I do not see what this has to do with unclear descriptions as to how the file backed save/load system works.

make a shortcut to desktop so your gaias folder will be easy to access
I already have shortcuts to my WC3 folder on my task bar as I need to use JNGP and JassShopPro often to solve WC3 related problems.

now if thats to hard why not make your own game seems you got time too ?
I am not sure how to handle the multi-threading yet. Also I am very busy with university at the moment writing their own mini-projects in Java and misc languages.

I was considering looking into writing an Android game with PC ports since micro transactions are so lucrative at the moment but currently I lack the time. I also maintain Undead Assault 3 the SC2 map which I cannot neglect which eats up my free time.
 
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Not only did the -save command not make it clear that it actually writes it to a file but no where did it describe how to load said saved code.

When you save, it states the code is saved in a file in your WC3 folder. It even creates a folder called "GaiasRetaliation" making it painfully simple to access your saves. In Quests, under chat commands, it also states (sic) "-save saves your loading code on your hard disc". Now, you're not going to look in random places for the code, are you?

When most of us started playing, we were able to find our codes and load them with no difficulty whatsoever. I really don't see the issue here.
 

Dr Super Good

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The difficulty is that people like Nes and guys who worked on the system advertised it publically as it doing loading as well as saving. Someone who joins the game expecting what was advertised is left confused since no where does it say it cannot load them automatically. The problem is the map assumes you can extract a -load string from a piece of jass code (well most people should, its not rocket science) and also does not state that you still need to load by placing the code in chat.

This confusion is not to be unexpected since in SC2 most maps save to disk and also load from disk all automatically. Saving to disk and loading the code in chat is not something you can imply. If it is mentioned anywhere it certainly was not clear and left me looking for hours through the map source code to find how the save/load system works.
 
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If you are confused by how loading a character works then you apparently have never played a Wc3 rpg before.
Loading works the same, in EVERY Warcraft 3 RPG map ever made. The textfile even contains "-load <code>" which should be a hint that it works like a chat command.

Honestly i dont think there are many people which are having problems with saving or loading.
 
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Alas another moron comes out and tries to criticize someone's else's hard work just because it's not to his liking.
Like what muzzle said earlier, if you are confused by such a simple system, than you obviously never played a wc3 RPGs before. Also, If you haven't noticed, this isn't sc2. dude, this is wc3, a game that's about 12 years old. Are you expecting it to automatically take care of the little problems so that you can just be a lazy ass?

Besides that, when you type in -save, it's says that the code is saved in the wc3 directory. when I first started playing this game, and it told me that when I typed in -save. I knew where to go and understood that if I'm going to load a code, I needed a "CODE" to load.
The newbies out there that have trouble with this apparently have no computer experience. So, it's up to them to get smart and read and ask for help. If they don't want to do that, then that's their lost.
And one more thing, the more noob friendly you make any game. The more you risk stupidity spreading like a virus. Now I'm sure you don't want that to happen now do you? Seeming how you are already a fatal victim.
 
I agree that there maybe should be additional instructions on loading, as there are lots of WC3 rpg maps not using disc based saving, but manually transcribing the codes.

There's some functional text fragments in the text file that you can not get rid of, unfortunately. Those might confuse some users at first. I think he got a valid point that it should be explained that people only need to copy and paste the code, not the whole content of the text file.

I don't know where you read, however, that disc-backed loading without manually copying a code is possible in WC3. Nestharus codeless save/load requires the user to download and execute a file once before it allows loading without codes.
 
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I just love how TooMuch has to insult DSG's intelligence to make him self feel bigger.

Zwiebelchen, I think you should just make it so the code saves into the folder and it also appears on the screen, 2 birds one stone. Not only will people be able to just copy it out but they will also be able to type it out if they want.
 
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no where does it say it cannot load them automatically

Nowhere does it say it CAN load codes automatically. Nor has anyone ever brought that non-issue to light.

does not state that you still need to load by placing the code in chat

There is no other way to load in wc3 ORPG's without the use of third-party programs. Anyone who is not new to custom wc3 maps knows this.

left me looking for hours

So we come to the conclusion that this whole ordeal came from your lack of knowledge. I'm sure if you had asked random joe, he would've pointed you in the right direction and this thread would not have been created.
 
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Alas another moron comes out and tries to criticize someone's else's hard work just because it's not to his liking.
Like what muzzle said earlier, if you are confused by such a simple system, than you obviously never played a wc3 RPGs before. Also, If you haven't noticed, this isn't sc2. dude, this is wc3, a game that's about 12 years old. Are you expecting it to automatically take care of the little problems so that you can just be a lazy ass?

Besides that, when you type in -save, it's says that the code is saved in the wc3 directory. when I first started playing this game, and it told me that when I typed in -save. I knew where to go and understood that if I'm going to load a code, I needed a "CODE" to load.
The newbies out there that have trouble with this apparently have no computer experience. So, it's up to them to get smart and read and ask for help. If they don't want to do that, then that's their lost.
And one more thing, the more noob friendly you make any game. The more you risk stupidity spreading like a virus. Now I'm sure you don't want that to happen now do you? Seeming how you are already a fatal victim.

I agree with what he said. I seriously don't see what is the major problem for the -save/-load system. There tons of RPGs that requires you to -save then print screen which waste a lot of time just to copy the long code.
 

Dr Super Good

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Nestharus codeless save/load requires the user to download and execute a file once before it allows loading without codes.
I thought it just required people to turn on local files in the system registry, which I do have turned on.

Seeming how you are already a fatal victim.
There is nothing stupid with being sold a product promising it does something only to find it does not deliver what was promised. Common sense has nothing to do with it, I mean where is the logic in saving to disk but manually loading?

Old WC3 RPGs...
-save gave me some text on screen. I write this to a txt file. Next session I -load this text.
SC2 maps in general...
Saving and loading either automatic or by command. All data put into a Bank which is automatically or trigger synchronized between all clients.
New WC3 maps...
-save gives me a rather messy but convenient file containing a textual code in my WC3 directory. Next session I need to input this into chat.

This lack of symmetry is not natural. The only reason I am guessing so few people have noticed this or raised it before is that the map is not actually played that much (getting a public full house is virtually impossible and takes over half an hour). Those who do play seem rather devoted players so might have been around since it was introduced and never noticed this sort of problem.

Nowhere does it say it CAN load codes automatically. Nor has anyone ever brought that non-issue to light.
It is natural to assume you can seeing how much it was advertised in chat that the system supported it and that symmetry is something one usually expects with systems. The reason it has not been raised before is probably since the map is not played anywhere near as much as it deserves since WC3 is practically a ghost ship so the RPG does not have many new players. Those who have been devoted players for a long time cannot be used to determine usability since they have expectations and familiarity new players do not.

There is no other way to load in wc3 ORPG's without the use of third-party programs. Anyone who is not new to custom wc3 maps knows this.
Actually there is, you just need to enable local files and expect to wait a few minutes for synchronization. Bots could also be used to save/load data automatically (and they have been for league data already) but this is not recommended due to the map life expectancy constraints. I was in chat when guys like Nes were developing these systems and overheard fragments of their conversations.

So we come to the conclusion that this whole ordeal came from your lack of knowledge. I'm sure if you had asked random joe, he would've pointed you in the right direction and this thread would not have been created.
My lack of knowledge is half the reason I made this thread. It is a blatant usability flaw that it does not explain how the system works. If it did then I would not be lacking the knowledge and only then would I have had no reason to create this thread.

Not to put random Joe down, but from my experience they often do not know much about anything. It would be like asking random Joe about how to use Microsoft Word to do something such as references or create a document that supports "read aloud" for the visually impaired. Chances are random Joe will tell you some hacky approach to do it (manually entering references and using tabs and things to format them or just saying that read aloud works fine without any help) when in fact there are special procedures Word supports to do such tasks (bibliography tools and the Document structure tools such as heading types and levels).

Some of what random Joe will tell you will be wrong as well such as gamming myths and legends. In Diablo III when you share your bad luck annoyances in chat you will eventually meet someone who claims that by doing X silly thing you will improves your chances of good items. Such ones I have heard are "the more you farm, the less good stuff drops", "running the same areas reduce drop rates", "X has a high chance of dropping Y as I got many Y from them", and the list goes on. I can give similar stories about SC2 maps, some of which I stupidly believed until I looked into the inner workings of the map and some people still believe the myths.

I seriously don't see what is the major problem for the -save/-load system. There tons of RPGs that requires you to -save then print screen which waste a lot of time just to copy the long code.
It is not clear how it works. Nowhere does it say it cannot load them automatically (which is possible for maps to do, just requires local files to be enabled and apparently takes considerable time). Nowhere does it instruct people unfamiliar to JASS (which I am guessing is most people, clearly this is not a problem I had) to ignore the function code and only extract the load string. The relationship of automatically saving to file but then manually loading via chat message from the file is not something one can imply as it is unheard of in other games and its lack of symmetry makes little sense.
 
Zwiebelchen, I think you should just make it so the code saves into the folder and it also appears on the screen, 2 birds one stone. Not only will people be able to just copy it out but they will also be able to type it out if they want.
There is an additional command to display the code for the classic method of WC3 saving.
It's noted in the F9 documentary.

The command that displays the code is -saveold

It's not practical to transcribe the code manually, though, as the codes are really long (I recently updated the Save/Load system to allow for almost 400 more items and roughly 40 new quests to be added to the game).
I thought it just required people to turn on local files in the system registry, which I do have turned on.
Local file support is not enabled by default so the user is required to get pro-active before playing the map, which is a no-go as I want this map to be random-friendly. Also, this only works on windows machines. Mac users would be screwed.

Codeless save/load is nice, don't get me wrong, but the drawbacks are greater than the benefits.

There is nothing stupid with being sold a product promising it does something only to find it does not deliver what was promised. Common sense has nothing to do with it, I mean where is the logic in saving to disk but manually loading?
It is nowhere promised that you can load without user interaction.
The -saveold command is there to be used for the symmetry you need.
I added the disc-backed saving just for convenience sake. It's perfectly optional.

Old WC3 RPGs...
-save gave me some text on screen. I write this to a txt file. Next session I -load this text.
SC2 maps in general...
Saving and loading either automatic or by command. All data put into a Bank which is automatically or trigger synchronized between all clients.
New WC3 maps...
-save gives me a rather messy but convenient file containing a textual code in my WC3 directory. Next session I need to input this into chat.

This lack of symmetry is not natural. The only reason I am guessing so few people have noticed this or raised it before is that the map is not actually played that much (getting a public full house is virtually impossible and takes over half an hour). Those who do play seem rather devoted players so might have been around since it was introduced and never noticed this sort of problem.
As I said, I agree that there should be a short documentary on how the save/load works and I will write one into F9.

Actually there is, you just need to enable local files and expect to wait a few minutes for synchronization. Bots could also be used to save/load data automatically (and they have been for league data already) but this is not recommended due to the map life expectancy constraints. I was in chat when guys like Nes were developing these systems and overheard fragments of their conversations.
See above. 'Local file' is a no-go for various reasons.


Why not just save the data to disk, then create a command to display to data locally.

For example, typing -load cleric would display "Your load code is: XXXX".

This way players don't have to manually go inside a .txt file
This does not work without local file support. See above.
 

Dr Super Good

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It is nowhere promised that you can load without user interaction.
Unfortunately the discussions I overheard in chat sort of lead to that conclusion. I was excepting the only user interaction needed for such systems to be a sort of slot selection.

See above. 'Local file' is a no-go for various reasons.
Must local file support be enabled on all clients as part of the synchronization process? Or does WC3 fatal error if it is not enabled (cannot test for it)? Otherwise why can it not be possible for users with it enabled to load automatically yet users who do not can load manually (and maybe get a prompt informing them that if they are on a Windows system enable local files it could be automatic)?
 
Unfortunately the discussions I overheard in chat sort of lead to that conclusion. I was excepting the only user interaction needed for such systems to be a sort of slot selection.
You seem to come from a SC2 background, so I can't blame you for expecting that. However, in WC3, manual loading by code is the standard.

Must local file support be enabled on all clients as part of the synchronization process? Or does WC3 fatal error if it is not enabled (cannot test for it)? Otherwise why can it not be possible for users with it enabled to load automatically yet users who do not can load manually (and maybe get a prompt informing them that if they are on a Windows system enable local files it could be automatic)?
Everyone that wants to load codeless needs local file support enabled. It will probably not crash the game if you haven't, however, the synchronization procedure that is required for this to work will require all users to wait for the synchronization.

Alt-tabbing and copy & paste is the faster solution and less prone to bugs or issues with lagging players and/or hostbots.
 

Dr Super Good

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You seem to come from a SC2 background, so I can't blame you for expecting that. However, in WC3, manual loading by code is the standard.
Yeh so someone who has been helping people with WC3 JASS problems for nearly 9 years comes from a SC2 background? I am no newbie to WC3. As much as I would like to be an expert with preload abuse, I let Nes and Mag and people mess around with it. The conclusion they told me was that it was possible, I guess they never went into it being practical too much.
 
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I must back this up by the confusion, I wrote -save, it saved my progress, and when I launched the game again I wrote -load and I cant remember exactly, but most likely it didnt say anything at all, so I wrote again, again, and then -load "the code"

I thought doing so because you said in the loadscreen I believe that you use Nestharus' Save/load, and he promoted it as if it could load from files, but it cant efficiently
 
Yeh so someone who has been helping people with WC3 JASS problems for nearly 9 years comes from a SC2 background? I am no newbie to WC3. As much as I would like to be an expert with preload abuse, I let Nes and Mag and people mess around with it. The conclusion they told me was that it was possible, I guess they never went into it being practical too much.
I'm not saying you are a newbie to WC3 or coding, just that you probably didn't play WC3 maps that much. That's not uncommon (In fact, I haven't played WC3 seriously for almost three years despite working on this project constantly).

Nes and Mag tend to "make things possible". But the reality looks different. Just because something works doesn't neccessarily mean it's practical.
I'd say 90% of their resources are coded for the sake of it, not to have any practical use in mapping.
Don't get me wrong: File I/O is AMAZING. And I would definitely use it if it wouldn't come with those drawbacks I mentioned above.
Required local file support, no mac compat and synchronization lag vs. 2 seconds of alt-tabbing?
We have a winner!
I must back this up by the confusion, I wrote -save, it saved my progress, and when I launched the game again I wrote -load and I cant remember exactly, but most likely it didnt say anything at all, so I wrote again, again, and then -load "the code"

I thought doing so because you said in the loadscreen I believe that you use Nestharus' Save/load, and he promoted it as if it could load from files, but it cant efficiently
I could change the error message that is being displayed when people write -load with an invalid code to tell them what to do to load.

And the loadscreen doesn't mention anything about the save/load. Oo

And no, File I/O CAN load from files. But it requires the user to enable local file support first.
 
Why would you need to synchronize it? I said display it locally..

This way you don't have to manually look inside a file, or alt-tab wc3, the game will just tell you what to input.
You seriously want to transcribe a 80 letter code instead of alt-tabbing for a split-second?
 

SHBlade

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Save/load system in Gaias is simple + smart enough (Ctrl + C --> Ctrl + V), u can even copy the code before launching game or while in loading screen, well but if for u looking at loading screen is most interesting thing in the world.. so ok, I understand it.
To be honest Gaias was my first ORPG, and when I typed save I said "WOW". So I don't see reasons to improve it.
 

Dr Super Good

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just that you probably didn't play WC3 maps that much
Please stop jumping to conclusions. I have played a ton of WC3.

Well DSG if you can manage to create a system which automatically loads codes then you're free to call it "poor usability" but if you don't then why do you call it "poor usability" when it's the best system currently made?
What does this have to do with usability?! I was emphasizing the system as poorly documented (not user friendly) not that it is bad. It is not something you can just expect every user to use correctly without giving at least some hints, especially when people like Nes have been boasting that it supports automatic loading and other people might have no idea about jass and try and load the entire function instead of just the code.

I remember when people used to write paragraphs explaining how to -save and -load on their maps in the quest system and I still used to have to explain to the odd person how it worked. For all the effort that was put in to Gaias it is surprising that something simple like -save/-load documentation is lacking.

Let me emphasise my position when I played the new version (yes I played it years ago as well...).
Is this not the map that uses Nes/Mag's file backed save/load system? Cool. Let me test it out.
*Plays a while until everyone is AFK or dropped.*
Time to save.
*DrSuperGood: -save*
*Alt tab*
Cool it did create the file, let me see how this works.

New session starts
*DrSuperGood: -load*
Hmm it is not loading... If it is using Nes's system why is it not loading automatically? I know I have local files enabled as I helped test some of the research done into making the systems.
*Opens Quests to look at help*
Um... Actually it does not really say how to load at all. I can see that there is the code in my file, but it is already in a jass function so surely it is capable of being loaded? Is the JASS function required as part of the I/O process or is it there for the automatic loading system? Why is this documentation not telling me anything?!

As you can see. Nothing wrong with the system itself, just the usability of the system. Obviously I could have listened to all the nice allies I was with like Muzzel (before he went AFK) but my experience with WC3 and mapping in general has made me quite distrustful of what random players say as they quite often speculate rumors more than facts. The fact is that I should not need to depend on an ally explaining me such details as the map itself should tell me. Imagine if I was playing single player (well more single player than I was), I would not even have an ally to ask.
 
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It's clear you haven't played much wc3 rpg in the past 3 years. Your elitist "i know everything there is to know about wc3 systems" attitude here yet inability to use this basic loading is pretty sad to look at.

WC3 is practically a ghost ship so the RPG does not have many new players.
So only these very tiny fraction of players (who probably won't have the patience nor skill to continue this if not all wc3 rpgs) are inconvenienced, and they will be surrounded by veterans who will help?

Those who have been devoted players for a long time cannot be used to determine usability since they have expectations and familiarity new players do not.
I've come across literally hundreds of new players to this map and the only ones who had trouble with the save system were completely new to wc3 rpg in general and did not understand the basic -load
Code:
 system in the first place

[QUOTE]Is this not the map that uses Nes/Mag's file backed save/load system?[/QUOTE]
This is probably where you got lost. The save system is file backed, the load system is NOT. You jumped to conclusions.

[QUOTE]Cool it did create the file, let me see how this works.[/QUOTE]
It did not occur to you to look into the file? As much as I trust this project I would not be comfortable unless I know exactly what has been written to my system. At this point the -load [code] string is pretty unmistakeable.

At any rate the map does need some basic instructions for the wc3 rpg illiterate, which Zwiebelchen has stated that he will document in the following version. I feel you're beating a dead horse for your own satisfaction by continuing to post here.
 
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Please stop jumping to conclusions. I have played a ton of WC3.


What does this have to do with usability?! I was emphasizing the system as poorly documented (not user friendly) not that it is bad. It is not something you can just expect every user to use correctly without giving at least some hints, especially when people like Nes have been boasting that it supports automatic loading and other people might have no idea about jass and try and load the entire function instead of just the code.

I remember when people used to write paragraphs explaining how to -save and -load on their maps in the quest system and I still used to have to explain to the odd person how it worked. For all the effort that was put in to Gaias it is surprising that something simple like -save/-load documentation is lacking.

Let me emphasise my position when I played the new version (yes I played it years ago as well...).
Is this not the map that uses Nes/Mag's file backed save/load system? Cool. Let me test it out.
*Plays a while until everyone is AFK or dropped.*
Time to save.
*DrSuperGood: -save*
*Alt tab*
Cool it did create the file, let me see how this works.

New session starts
*DrSuperGood: -load*
Hmm it is not loading... If it is using Nes's system why is it not loading automatically? I know I have local files enabled as I helped test some of the research done into making the systems.
*Opens Quests to look at help*
Um... Actually it does not really say how to load at all. I can see that there is the code in my file, but it is already in a jass function so surely it is capable of being loaded? Is the JASS function required as part of the I/O process or is it there for the automatic loading system? Why is this documentation not telling me anything?!

As you can see. Nothing wrong with the system itself, just the usability of the system. Obviously I could have listened to all the nice allies I was with like Muzzel (before he went AFK) but my experience with WC3 and mapping in general has made me quite distrustful of what random players say as they quite often speculate rumors more than facts. The fact is that I should not need to depend on an ally explaining me such details as the map itself should tell me. Imagine if I was playing single player (well more single player than I was), I would not even have an ally to ask.

First of all i quoted "poor usability" because that was what you said about the save system. (just look at the title of the thread).
 
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By "poor usability" DrSuperGood means that the system wasn't carefully explained by the map and therefore he could not figure out what to do. I don't think he meant that the system is particularly bad, even though his tone is very critical of seemingly everything he mentions.

It would be more accurate to say that the system has "poor instruction" or "poor documentation", since it does in fact have very simple usability (go to file, copy, paste in game chatline - seems easy enough to other players and I).
 
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"water Knight" thanks for making a completely useless and unrelated post in a dead thread. The last complaint here was made by DrSuperGood three days ago. Refrain from butting into discussions you weren't involved in just to attempt take the moral high ground. It's unsightly.

P.S. Can any mod close this thread? It serves no purpose now.
 
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Actually there was a post on the 15th by you so no the last post was node made "three days ago" Also it was not completely useless and unrelated. I was pointing out that Z already said he will be addressing what DSG was referring to.

Also you go around calling DSG an elitist but you really have to think. From anyone who has played any other RPG on wc3 and only just coming to Gaias when they type -save they will expect a code to appear not for a code to save into a folder on there pc.

P.S. Look at page one i gave my own suggestion as to a idea on how it could work better. So i actually was part of this.
 
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