Paragons of Their Kind: The Orcs

[Razosh]

Every race has their paragons, heroes who represent the core of their people and I want to know who would you brand a paragon of the orcs?

For me the answer is easy, Draka, an orcish woman who started with nothing and fought her way up to everything she has now. As a child she was banished to the outskirts of the town for being weak. Asking for a way to cure her weakness she was sent to collect various items from dangerous animals. She passed her test and came back to the Frostwolf clan to have earned the affection of both Durotan and Orgrim Doomhammer. She was also a firm believer of the old shamanistic way of the Horde as she had a strong faith for what the Frostwolf Tribe symbolized. For all these reasons I think that Draka is the pure incarnation of what it means to be an orc and a paragon of her kind.

Draka

 

[Chaosy]

I would say Grom Hellsream.

 

[Heinvers]

That would be my choice too! Although being one of the first chieftains to accept Mannoroth's offer, he was also the redeemer of the orcs! (Unlike his son)

 

[Chaosy]

I think grom what something close to the ideal orc. He was bloodthirsty but smart enough to listen to Thralls peachful advice. (even though he didnt care about it, he did listen atleast)
He ignored the blood curse and killed one of the greatest demons there are.

I dont know anyone else who did that

even thought Draka did something great I wouldnt call her an paragon.

edi: borx would be a great choise aswell.

 

[gorillabull]

grom hellscream, gul'dan, ner'zhul, killrog, blackhand , kargath bladefist ,durotan all worthy candidates

 

[Razosh]

grom hellscream, gul'dan, ner'zhul, killrog, blackhand , kargath bladefist ,durotan all worthy candidates

Did you just copy paste the name of all the orcish leaders of Draenor and add Gul'dan? One would think Orgrim Doomhammer was also a candidate.

 

[Razosh]

Razosh is the winner between me and him.

2-3

good matches to be honest even though I had some bad luck hehe. Good luck everyone!

I think you posted this on the wrong place.

 

[Chaosy]

I totally didnt! post removed.

 

[Heinvers]

You know that Broxigar dude would be a good choice too. As for Doomhammer......he's a backstabber basically; even if Blackhand was a puppet of Guldan. My choice remains Grommash Hellscream (shame on Garrosh)

 

[Razosh]

Me and Chaosy actually had a discussion about Broxigar and we disagreed on who was best suited as a paragon of the two brothers, me claiming that it was Saurfang and Chaosy claiming it was Broxigar.

As I said to Chaosy I do not believe that Broxigar is to be considered a paragon since he even though having accomplished great deeds he was still weak on an emotional level unlike his brother Saurfang. In the War of the Ancients trilogy Broxigar wanted to die and sought out death since he wanted to be remembered and also wanted to atone for the warriors who had fallen under his command. Saurfang on the other hand was an orc who never sought out death but were not afraid of death as shown in his actions in both Icecrown Citadel and Orgrimmar. In ICC if you play alliance he alone jumps and is ready to fight a battle against the alliance that he could not win to try to give his son a proper burial, had Varian not stopped Muradian Varok would have died. In Orgrimmar Varok was once again close to death and would surely have perished had not heroes (the players) arrived in time to stop Garrosh. For all these reasons Varok Saurfang is my favorite orc and I would have named him my paragon had I known if he supported the old shamanistic ways of the Horde.

 

[Heinvers]

Okay, your little argument is understandable. Yeah I'd support Varok too, but I have some unsolved dilemmas about him. As for Broxigar, on that I agree, he's quite unstable emotionally. Still Grom rules tho!!! )

 

[Razosh]

Okay, your little argument is understandable. Yeah I'd support Varok too, but I have some unsolved dilemmas about him. As for Broxigar, on that I agree, he's quite unstable emotionally. Still Grom rules tho!!! )

He's pretty neat though my paragon has to be a supporter of the old shamanistic ways of the Horde. As Eddard Stark said "Our way is the old way."

 

[Heinvers]

Yep. Not even Drek'thar could say that Yep your paragon is still good though

 

[Chaosy]

Was fun talking about it to be honest.

But it feels like Brox did go after his code of honor which I find nothing wrong with.

 

[gorillabull]

mankrik is the best example of horde integrity and military discipline

 

[Shatterfury]

I like to think that after the entire fuck up with Garrosh, the orcs are closer to individuals like Varok and even Thrall rather then Mankrik or Garrosh.

 

[Razosh]

I like to think that after the entire fuck up with Garrosh, the orcs are closer to individuals like Varok and even Thrall rather then Mankrik or Garrosh.

Most orcs who believed in Garrosh probably died defending him so hopefully that is how the orcs will turn out.

 

[Shatterfury]

Most orcs who believed in Garrosh probably died defending him so hopefully that is how the orcs will turn out.

We can be sure that not all of them died but we can be sure that a shift did occur after the 4th War.

To be honest, it should have been Varian going loco and it should have been Stormwind under siege.

It`s even harder favouring the Horde after this fuck up with Garrosh.Now the Horde went out of control without any demon control.

The Alliance, on the other hand, could have really used a fuck up like this to make them more "human" and get rid of the powerpuff girls reputation and the Horde would get some much needed karma points.

Both factions would have been established as gray and not good vs (quite) evil.

 

[Razosh]

To be honest, it should have been Varian going loco and it should have been Stormwind under siege.

I think it should be Jaina she seems more like a tyrant at this point.

 

[Shatterfury]

I think it should be Jaina she seems more like a tyrant at this point.

At this point yes, but when Varian returned back he was a real dick.

Blizzard tortured the Horde because Thrall played one central role in the Cataclysm.


In vanilla the Horde had only orc buildings, tauren huts and the forsaken didn`t have an architecture, they lived in ruined human buildings.

In vanilla the Alliance has a proper architecture for all of it`s races and more zones to level in.

In the first expansion , the Burning Crusade, we sat in a Draenei city, helping Maiv, the Night Elf, kill Illidan Stormrage, the half demon half night elf.Not Alliance centered at all.

In the second expansion, The Wrath of the Lich King, we help Tirion, the Human Paladin, and his mostly Alliance centered Crusade kill Arthas, the ex crown prince of Lordaeron.Oh did I mention that we sat in an Alliance city?Sounds Alliance centered?

In the third expansion, the Cataclysm, Thrall played a central role in the story and the war breaks between the Alliance and the Horde.Alliance playbase moans that the expansion is pro-Horde.

In the fourth expansion, Mists of Pandaria, Horde are bad guys and the Alliance are the knights in shining armour.

This is way I say MoP should have been Horde`s finest hour.It would have helped with the past crimes and knock the Alliance down from their high horses.

 

[gorillabull]

actually one of the devs at bliz said that the new expansion is the way it is only because they wanted to bring back all the liked oldschool characters that everyone liked eg grom durotan etc.. but i agree that the horde is a bit unrepresented and that alliance has it easy (probably because the larger part of wow subs play alliance)

 

[Razosh]

(probably because the larger part of wow subs play alliance)

Although that's true the Alliance to make up 52% of the player base which is not a big majority so I don't think that's a legit argument. They seem to have done this because everyone wanted Garrosh dead the Horde even more so than the Alliance.

 

[Heinvers]

It's funny to see how some think that Orgrimmar was besieged because Blizzard "favors the Alliance". Come on @Shaterfurry, that's low even for u. As @Razosh said every one wanted Garrosh dead. So your arguments are hollow.
----------
Back to the topic: I think that if Grom would have seen Garrosh now, even he would have agreed with Thrall.

 

[Shatterfury]

It's funny to see how some think that Orgrimmar was besieged because Blizzard "favors the Alliance". Come on @Shaterfurry, that's low even for u. As @Razosh said every one wanted Garrosh dead. So your arguments are hollow.
----------
Back to the topic: I think that if Grom would have seen Garrosh now, even he would have agreed with Thrall.

It`s unfair because the Alliance was favoured in volume of content in vanilla, the Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King and Mists of Pandaria.

The Mists of Pandaria should have been Stormwind under siege and Varian going loco.

I am talking about the balance of good and bad deeds of the entire Warcraft franchise.The Horde was badly in need of some good guy action and the Alliance of some bad guy action so that both factions are established as gray.

The Horde fucked up with no with no demon corruption this time and pinning this only on Garrosh`s shoulders will not cut it.It was one thing playing with Thrall`s Horde, who was trying to build a new future free of demon corruption, there is another playing the Horde post Garrosh, we are the bad guys, simple as that.

WoW, it was said, wasn`t about good and evil yet the Horde was portrayed as the bad guys and the Alliance as the knights in shining armour.

I am well aware that Garrish was being built for the purpose of being the bad guy, but I am questioning the marketing behind reconfirming the Alliance as perfect Merry Sues and pushing the Horde from gray to evil.

Don`t you think the Alliance could have used a big fuck up and the Horde could have used some positive karma?

 

[Razosh]

It`s unfair because the Alliance was favoured in volume of content in vanilla, the Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King and Mists of Pandaria

You claim that the Burning Crusade that was taking place on the home planet of the orcs featuring Garrosh for the first time, had Zul'Aman, the Sunwell and Tempest kepp that were focused on blood elf and troll lore was to fixated on the Alliance? I'll have to disagree. And we shouldn't even get started on MoP where everything is centered around Garrosh and you get a good look at Vol'Jin and Lor'Themars struggle to lead their people against Garrosh.

I am talking about the balance of good and bad deeds of the entire Warcraft franchise.The Horde was badly in need of some good guy action and the Alliance of some bad guy action so that both factions are established as gray.

The alliance has an antagonist and her name is Jaina and Vereesa Windrunner is also going down that road and horde does have strong characters such as Lor'Themar, Varok, Baine and Vol'Jin.

The Horde fucked up with no with no demon corruption this time and pinning this only on Garrosh`s shoulders will not cut it.It was one thing playing with Thrall`s Horde, who was trying to build a new future free of demon corruption, there is another playing the Horde post Garrosh, we are the bad guys, simple as that.

Garrosh's Horde was the bad guys not Vol'Jins Horde, Vol'Jin has spoken out against Garrosh since patch 4.0 and he has had huge supporters especially in MoP.

 

[Chaosy]

Garrosh's Horde was the bad guys not Vol'Jins Horde, Vol'Jin has spoken out against Garrosh since patch 4.0 and he has had huge supporters especially in MoP.

Indeed, just play the troll starting area and you will see. Same with Sylvanas.

 

[Razosh]

Same with Sylvanas.

True although I think opportunist describes her better than protagonist.

 

[Shatterfury]

You claim that the Burning Crusade that was taking place on the home planet of the orcs featuring Garrosh for the first time, had Zul'Aman, the Sunwell and Tempest kepp that were focused on blood elf and troll lore was to fixated on the Alliance? I'll have to disagree. And we shouldn't even get started on MoP where everything is centered around Garrosh and you get a good look at Vol'Jin and Lor'Themars struggle to lead their people against Garrosh.

I guess you are an Alliance fanboy.

So going on the Homeland of the Orcs and killing Orcs, Trolls and Blood Elves while sitting in an alliance city and interacting with WC 2 Alliance heroes and killing Horde ones constitutes pro-Horde?It`s not about simply seeing them there, it`s about them having a positive influence.Being the monsters that have to be killed is hardly what I call positive.

What if, for once, we have an entire expansion about sitting in Horde cities and interacting with Horde heroes and killing Alliance mobs and heroes?Imagine the amount of "focus" the Alliance gets.

The alliance has an antagonist and her name is Jaina and Vereesa Windrunner is also going down that road and horde does have strong characters such as Lor'Themar, Varok, Baine and Vol'Jin.

Jaina and Vereesa? Are you kidding me?Can those two even compare with Garrosh?Seriously, the most harm those two did was to bad mouth the Horde.

Garrosh's Horde was the bad guys not Vol'Jins Horde, Vol'Jin has spoken out against Garrosh since patch 4.0 and he has had huge supporters especially in MoP.

Dark Horde, Old Horde, New Horde, Thrall`s Horde, Garrosh`s Horde, Vol`Jin`s Horde...who cares?!?! It`s the Horde.

This time, the bigger part of the Horde, Garrosh loyalists, went over the board with no demon influence.That lives a very sour taste in my mouth, it`s all pink on the Alliance side, not so much on the Horde side.

Spin it as you like it but Vol`Jin`s rebels were a small part of the Horde.It was just a way of letting Horde players lay siege to their own capital, a sidekick to the Alliance war machine.

I don`t understand way you don`t get my point? It`s not about being anti-Alliance is about the Horde being in the light as the good guys and the Alliance not for at least once.

For only once can we have the Alliance commit a fuck up and the Horde fix it?

If you know the history of the Warcraft franchise you would know that the Orcs, in particular, have a lot to atone.Since they were under demon influence there is a way to some sympathy to them, now guess who was the main race behind the bad guys in MoP?

 

[Chaosy]

Well she served Thrall fairly loyal.

 

[Shatterfury]

Well she served Thrall fairly loyal.

Sylvanas? Loyal? Did you actually use those two words next to each other?

She only cared for the own agenda and nothing more.At most she knew that Thrall was no fool and tried not to step on his toes, too much.

 

[Razosh]

I guess you are an Alliance fanboy.

You really know nothing about me do you. I'm the biggest Sin'dorei fan on this forum.

So going on the Homeland of the Orcs and killing Orcs, Trolls and Blood Elves while sitting in an alliance city and interacting with WC 2 Alliance heroes and killing Horde ones constitutes pro-Horde?It`s not about simply seeing them there, it`s about them having a positive influence.Being the monsters that have to be killed is hardly what I call positive.

It's true that you sit in a city that belongs to the Naaru which is mainly populated by draeneis. But in what f-ing universe is the fel-orcs considered member of the horde by that standard Onyxia and Deathwing are members of the Alliance because they disguised themselves as humans and operated within the human cities.

What if, for once, we have an entire expansion about sitting in Horde cities and interacting with Horde heroes and killing Alliance mobs and heroes?Imagine the amount of "focus" the Alliance gets.

That's what we did for all of the Cataclysm expansion.

Jaina and Vereesa? Are you kidding me?Can those two even compare with Garrosh?Seriously, the most harm those two did was to bad mouth the Horde.

You seem to forget their attempts to "cleanse" the land from blood elfs.

Spin it as you like it but Vol`Jin`s rebels were a small part of the Horde.It was just a way of letting Horde players lay siege to their own capital, a sidekick to the Alliance war machine.

"Small", you mean like all the Horde races besides the orcs and the goblins? The only reason it took so many forces is because it's a lot harder to attack someone than it is to defend a superior position, if you do not believe me just take a look at the Winter War and Stalins attempt to conquer Finland.

I don`t understand way you don`t get my point? It`s not about being anti-Alliance is about the Horde being in the light as the good guys and the Alliance not for at least once.

You mean like Thrall in the Hour of Twilight, Gamon in the Siege of Orgimmar, Hammul during the Firelands, Varok in ICC or Lor'Themar throughout pretty much all of MoP. And lets not even mention the novels then.

For only once can we have the Alliance commit a fuck up and the Horde fix it?

This was fixed by both the Horde and the Alliance and the Horde not only the Alliance. And the Alliance have f-cked up pleanty of times just look at why Edwin and Vanessa Vancleef and you'll see that's true.

 

[Chaosy]

She do indeed care only for her own goals, but she did never stand up against him like she did against Garrosh. You can call it respect I guess.

 

[Shatterfury]

She do indeed care only for her own goals, but she did never stand up against him like she did against Garrosh. You can call it respect I guess.

True that.Thrall imposes respect.

You really know nothing about me do you. I'm the biggest Sin'dorei fan on this forum.

The Sin`dorei might be your favourite race but the Alliance are your favourite faction.

It's true that you sit in a city that belongs to the Naaru which is mainly populated by draeneis. But in what f-ing universe is the fel-orcs considered member of the horde by that standard Onyxia and Deathwing are members of the Alliance because they disguised themselves as humans and operated within the human cities.

What do you say about a new expansion in that you stay in an ex-orc city ruled by living manifestations on elemental forces and we all, Alliance and Horde, get orders from Durotan to kill fel-infused humans, dwarves, night elves and draenei and half of their old heroes? Up for it?

That's what we did for all of the Cataclysm expansion.

Nice try, on my Alliance character I had to kill lots and lots and lots of Hordes.
I am talking about an expansion in which Alliance races are the main villain for both the Alliance and the Horde.

You seem to forget their attempts to "cleanse" the land from blood elfs.

Let`s try to be practical here.Imprisoning the Sunreaver Blood Elves is equal to cleansing the Blood Elf population?

Are you going to point me at the horde quest in Borean Tundra in which you hand over Alliance deserters back to the Alliance as an universal proof of Horde kindness?

"Small", you mean like all the Horde races besides the orcs and the goblins? The only reason it took so many forces is because it's a lot harder to attack someone than it is to defend a superior position, if you do not believe me just take a look at the Winter War and Stalins attempt to conquer Finland.

You don`t, quite, grasp the role the orcs play in the Horde, they ARE the Horde for all intents and purposes.There are 3 major races on Azeroth, by major I mean races who have over 100.000 members, the Orcs, the Humans and the Dwarves.

All other Horde races are minuscule in population compared to the Orcs.The Orcs alone are still a power, all the others will have problems surviving.

You mean like Thrall in the Hour of Twilight, Gamon in the Siege of Orgimmar, Hammul during the Firelands, Varok in ICC or Lor'Themar throughout pretty much all of MoP. And lets not even mention the novels then.

You are grasping at straws.Thrall was in HoT but Maiv was in the Black Temple, Tirion was in Icecrown Citadel. You don`t want to count, trust me, the Alliance is on top by a huge margin.

Hammul has an exemplary performance yet he was Malfurion`s sidekick.Oh and it should have been the Earthen Ring doing the fighting against the elemental forces of fire not the Druids.

Varok pales in comparison to Tirion in ICC,on the Alliance side of the instance the mighty Chin allows Varok to take his son, so Alliancey of him.

Lor'Themar appears only on the Horde side, nice try. It`s as much as an example as Jaina being his Alliance counterpart.

This was fixed by both the Horde and the Alliance and the Horde not only the Alliance. And the Alliance have f-cked up pleanty of times just look at why Edwin and Vanessa Vancleef and you'll see that's true.

Grasping at straws again.The Horde tried to enslave and destroy every civilisation TWO times and you bring up a band of former stonemasons who didn`t get payed for rebuilding Stormwind.They would have destroyed SW if they would have succeeded but that doesn`t measure up to your faction leader becoming power hungry and try to enslave the entire world for not being part of his race.

We get the main race of the Horde, who had another antecedent in the past, try to go all out nazi on the entire Azeroth with no demon influence at all.

Great, it`s exactly what we were promised, noble and honorable savages who are trying to rebuild and might skirt the lines of morality so that they can survive.Genocide and enslavement is such a small step from that.


Be honest.Something like an overzealous response from the Alliance trying to disband the Horde and then some Alliance leaders understanding that the Horde aren` the evil and they side with the Horde so they can beat the Chin and have a ceasefire is too much to ask?Be honest, please.

 

[Razosh]

The Sin`dorei might be your favourite race but the Alliance are your favourite faction.

Are you saying that you know what I think better than I do, because you're wrong I would serve Vol'Jin rather than Varian every day of the week.

What do you say about a new expansion in that you stay in an ex-orc city ruled by living manifestations on elemental forces and we all, Alliance and Horde, get orders from Durotan to kill fel-infused humans, dwarves, night elves and draenei and half of their old heroes? Up for it?

I'm not going to debate that the old Horde are brutes that only seek power because they are, but they're not members of the current Horde. WoW took place 2 years after the events in RoC so it was 11 years since Grommash Hellscream the end boss of WoD died and a few more decades since the 6.0 boss Blackhand died.

Let`s try to be practical here.Imprisoning the Sunreaver Blood Elves is equal to cleansing the Blood Elf population?

She has ATTEMPTED to so yes, in Dalaran, Isle of Thunder and Orgrimmar.

Are you going to point me at the horde quest in Borean Tundra in which you hand over Alliance deserters back to the Alliance as an universal proof of Horde kindness?

When have I ever indicated that the Horde is kind in warfare, Vol'Jin, Lor'Themar and Thrall have all sought out peace when it can be found.

You don`t, quite, grasp the role the orcs play in the Horde, they ARE the Horde for all intents and purposes.

That explains why a troll was elected Warchief.

There are 3 major races on Azeroth, by major I mean races who have over 100.000 members, the Orcs, the Humans and the Dwarves.

Let me put this as clear as daylight. The only place where numbers are ever mentioned is in the RPG books which are non-cannon. In other words THERE IS NO SET AMOUNT OF INHABITANTS ON AZEROTH!

You are grasping at straws.Thrall was in HoT but Maiv was in the Black Temple, Tirion was in Icecrown Citadel. You don`t want to count, trust me, the Alliance is on top by a huge margin.

Tirion was an outspoken member of the Alliance in the second war but the same can not be said about him in Wrath of the Lich King. The fact that he's a human does not immediately make him loyal to the Alliance just as being born in Germany during the 40's did not mean you supported Hitler.

Lor'Themar appears only on the Horde side, nice try. It`s as much as an example as Jaina being his Alliance counterpart.

The fact that Lor'Themar only appears on the Horde side and Jaina on the Alliance side it does not undo their actions.

Grasping at straws again.The Horde tried to enslave and destroy every civilisation TWO times and you bring up a band of former stonemasons who didn`t get payed for rebuilding Stormwind.They would have destroyed SW if they would have succeeded but that doesn`t measure up to your faction leader becoming power hungry and try to enslave the entire world for not being part of his race.

I'm confused when did Thrall or Vol'Jin ever try to destroy any civilization? It seems to me like it was Gul'Dan, Ner'Zhul and Blackhand who tried to do that not Vol'Jins or Thralls Horde.

We get the main race of the Horde, who had another antecedent in the past, try to go all out nazi on the entire Azeroth with no demon influence at all.

That was Garrosh's Horde if you've followed the lore you know that the Horde has pretty much been divided into two factions between the death of Cairne up until Vol'Jin became Warchief and they only helped each other out when necessary.

Great, it`s exactly what we were promised, noble and honorable savages who are trying to rebuild and might skirt the lines of morality so that they can survive.Genocide and enslavement is such a small step from that.

Remind me again when Thrall or Vol'Jin did any of this? You do not inherit the sins of your ancestors.

Be honest.Something like an overzealous response from the Alliance trying to disband the Horde and then some Alliance leaders understanding that the Horde aren` the evil and they side with the Horde so they can beat the Chin and have a ceasefire is too much to ask?Be honest, please.

Who the hell is Chin? And no I don't think it's much to ask that we get to kill a huge Alliance person but Garrosh was not supported by the community so we deserve to kill someone who just as well isn't supported by the community. Jaina is a fine example.

 

[Shatterfury]

You are just looking to counter what I say as if it`s a contest of something.

Let`s get back on the basics.

Almost all people I`ve spoken on the WoW forums don`t let the Horde get away with "it was the old Horde" or it was "Garrosh`s Horde".Actually you are the first.There is a clear continuity that the vast majority agree with.

With that in mind, I mean the crimes committed by the Horde in the past, plus that Blizzard promised us that the Horde will embody noble savages and that both factions will be grey led many players to think that the Horde needed a moment to shine and the Alliance not.It never came.

The fourth war is the exact opposite, the Horde is confirmed as the bad guys and the Alliance as the good guys.No noble savages, no gray just genocide and "Vol`Jin`s Horde" is not an excuse.

Have you ever debated someone on WoW forums? They come after you like a sledge hammer with all the crimes committed in the first and second war.With the conclusion of the fourth war we are in deeper shit then ever.

For all intents and purposes Garrosh could have been built up to be a good guy and be the one who spanks the Chin.

I see that you aren`t opposed to seeing an expansion with the Horde in a good light and Alliance in a bad light.

I have a feeling I will be agreeing with you on many things on other topics.

P.S. I`ll rep you if you figure up who`s the Chin.

 

[Razosh]

You are just looking to counter what I say as if it`s a contest of something.

Nope, I'm just stating what's and isn't cannon to the lore.

Almost all people I`ve spoken on the WoW forums don`t let the Horde get away with "it was the old Horde" or it was "Garrosh`s Horde".Actually you are the first.There is a clear continuity that the vast majority agree with.

Lets say the majority is against me, does that make my opinion invalid? If the Alliance sits around and will demand justice to left and right, limiting the Horde races freedom then everything will just go back to war since the Alliance will have provoked the Horde into a state where the only thing they can do is start a war to gain their rights. Besides the fact that Vol'Jin is not to be punished for Garrosh's crimes is further proven in this trailer where Garrosh says "They are no longer part of my Horde!" Vol'Jin, Lor'Themar and Baine are at this point as allied with Garrosh as Varian and Jaina is.

With that in mind, I mean the crimes committed by the Horde in the past, plus that Blizzard promised us that the Horde will embody noble savages and that both factions will be grey led many players to think that the Horde needed a moment to shine and the Alliance not.It never came.

The Horde did shine when they defeated Garrosh's Horde.

The fourth war is the exact opposite, the Horde is confirmed as the bad guys and the Alliance as the good guys.No noble savages, no gray just genocide and "Vol`Jin`s Horde" is not an excuse.

It's an excuse and a damned good one at that.

Have you ever debated someone on WoW forums? They come after you like a sledge hammer with all the crimes committed in the first and second war.With the conclusion of the fourth war we are in deeper shit then ever.

This is a WoW forum, but I suspect you speak of the ones that Blizzard have made. And no it's the people who only look to put blame at the Horde's feet people who want to see the truth does not blame someone for their parents acts.

For all intents and purposes Garrosh could have been built up to be a good guy and be the one who spanks the Chin.

I think you mean the sha otherwise I need to ask, who the hell is the Chin?

 

[Shatterfury]

If you really want to know why you are wrong on so many levels look up the concept of succession.The Horde is closer to a federation rather than a family, thus they have to answer for their crimes.

Vol`Jin`s Horde comes after Garrosh`s Horde thus they are the successor, they will have to answer for the crimes committed under Garrosh`s leadership.

Anyway, nope the Chin is not the Sha.Reread what I said that Garrosh could have been molded into a good guy and kick the Chin`s arse with the other Alliance members.

 

[Razosh]

You're referring to it as the Chin so it can not be a name but rather a title, race or group. I would guess you mean king.

 

[Shatterfury]

You're referring to it as the Chin so it can not be a name but rather a title, race or group. I would guess you mean king.

It`s a nickname given by the Blizz forum members to a character.You are closer.

 

[Razosh]

It`s a nickname given by the Blizz forum members to a character.You are closer.

Why are we even doing this we should stop while we're ahead since this becoming way to off-topic.

 

[Shatterfury]

Why are we even doing this we should stop while we're ahead since this becoming way to off-topic.

Oh come on, guess who`s the Chin. Don`t pussy out of it.

1.It`s a nickname
2.The Chin is a reference to a prominent chin of a character.

Talking about paragons, what about Varok Saurfang?I don`t think you can find a better specimen to represent the Orcs.