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Now have some guts and answer this

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Orcnet

Orcnet

Orcnet

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I don't know man I'm so straight like a road I can't even understand feelings.
 

Nuclear

Nuclear

Nuclear

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Because your opinion isn't an inherent trait in you that you can't change. Seriously what kind of idiot logic is that? I'll tolerate you if you're mentally challenged and intolerant because of that, otherwise you're just an asshole.
 

Zombie

Zombie

Zombie

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It might not be an inherent trait (though I've yet to see any evidence regarding that), but it certainly did not happen because I decided to think this way.

In both cases, external factors influenced the present mindset of individuals, why are you less tolerant of either?

Simple: Because similar external factors changed your mindset to the way it is now. I don't blame you for it. Am I not more tolerant?

EDIT: Ah, the joy of friendly fire on the opposite side.
 

Nuclear

Nuclear

Nuclear

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Heinvers said:
You know I never stated that I'm against it! Where did I said that? You're an asshole too for talking like that even though I haven't stated that I'd be against it!
Click to expand...

Excuse me, in the heat of the debate I didn't realize which side you were on :)

Zombie said:
It might not be an inherent trait (though I've yet to see any evidence regarding that), but it certainly did not happen because I decided to think this way.

In both cases, external factors influenced the present mindset of individuals, why are you less tolerant of either?

Simple: Because similar external factors changed your mindset to the way it is now. I don't blame you for it. Am I not more tolerant?

EDIT: Ah, the joy of friendly fire on the opposite side.
Click to expand...

So now you're suggesting that you never really were in control of anything. Well, the idea of "free will" is kinda assumed in debates like these. But if you don't control your thoughts and that's the reason for your intolerance, then I don't really control mine either... and everything is just pointless.

Pharaoh_ said:
Nuclear, why do you bother? If you're worried that opinions here will affect others, then you are dealing with shallow people. You have an opinion, they have theirs. Is this your first social encounter? :p
Click to expand...

Because I enjoy this.

inb4 Ralle closes the thread because people were disagreeing
 

Zombie

Zombie

Zombie

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Nuclear said:
So now you're suggesting that you never really were in control of anything. Well, the idea of "free will" is kinda assumed in debates like these. But if you don't control your thoughts and that's the reason for your intolerance, then I don't really control mine either... and everything is just pointless.
Click to expand...


We're lucky Pharaoh answered this one for me.

Pharaoh_ said:
You also formed your opinions based on your social background. This is not being shallow, this is how you've been nurtured - it's called social identity.
Click to expand...

Pharaoh_ said:
Nuclear, losing temper does not make you look like you enjoy it.
Click to expand...

'Ts adrenaline. Some people get it by racing cars, some by arguing with assholes on the internet.
 

Zombie

Zombie

Zombie

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Nuclear said:
Well, if you believe in free will, then opinions you got while growing up can be changed. Do you believe in free will?
Click to expand...

I do and I could. But the question is, why should I change my opinion and not you or anyone who thinks like you?

Heinvers said:
I didn't seemed like that to me. You're rushing too much and jump to conclusions instantly.
I personally believe in that, everybody is free to determine his role, sexual orientation and other things in life. I guess that's what democracy is about.
Click to expand...

That's not democracy, democracy is a political formula.
 

Nuclear

Nuclear

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Zombie said:
I do and I could. But the question is, why should I change my opinion and not you or anyone who thinks like you?
Click to expand...

Because your opinion is harmful and causes discrimination and hate in society. You could get a time machine and go ask a racist from 50 years ago that same question. At this point society has mostly gone past that and we've accepted that people of all colours are equal, and same will happen with the case of different sexualities.
 

Zombie

Zombie

Zombie

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Nuclear said:
Because your opinion is harmful and causes discrimination and hate in society. You could get a time machine and go ask a racist from 50 years ago that same question. At this point society has mostly gone past that and we've accepted that people of all colours are equal, and same will happen with the case of different sexualities.
Click to expand...

"I do because others do too!"

What's that about free will again?
 

Pharaoh_

Pharaoh_

Pharaoh_

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Nuclear said:
What? I explained that adopting more humane opinions is part of the society's development. However, individuals still more or less (depending on how independently you think) make the choice themselves.
Click to expand...

Not that I disagree with you, I was just wondering what is "more human" to humans. Opinions are human. I haven't seen other mammals having an opinion.
 

Zombie

Zombie

Zombie

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Nuclear said:
What? I explained that adopting more humane opinions is part of the society's development.
Click to expand...

I don't see how this connects to this:

Nuclear said:
However, individuals still more or less (depending on how independently you think) make the choice themselves.
Click to expand...

It might be just me, but I don't get it.

You're saying that the society in general is more advanced when it is more "humane". Humane by your definition must mean more accepting of social layers that were not as accepted a few years back, is that not so?

My question still remains: Just because they become accepted, why must those people who do not accept them be shunned by society just as much as these layers once were?

I'm curious because I believe that a society is more advanced if it's more tolerant of diversity, but diversity includes those who oppose diversity as well, not just homosexuals, black people and liberals. Because if we only accept the latter, we spit on the very principles on which liberalism was funded and because of which our current society is so "advanced".

EDIT: I like your way of thinking, Pharao. It's strange because most so-called "open-minded" people are actually retarded hypocrites and do not understand their own beliefs. Seems not to apply in your case.
 

Nuclear

Nuclear

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You're saying that the society in general is more advanced when it is more "humane". Humane by your definition must mean more accepting of social layers that were not as accepted a few years back, is that not so?
Click to expand...

Humane by my definition is more equal and less violent and hateful.

My question still remains: Just because they become accepted, why must those people who do not accept them be shunned by society just as much as these layers once were?
Click to expand...

Well, I'm just going to assume that you're not racist, and ask, do you not dislike racists? Short answer would be, because hating a group of people isn't an opinion worth of respect. Do you seriously think that people expressing hate should be treated as if they were just expressing a political idea or something?

I'm curious because I believe that a society is more advanced if it's more tolerant of diversity, but diversity includes those who oppose diversity as well, not just homosexuals, black people and liberals. Because if we only accept the latter, we spit on the very principles on which liberalism was funded and because of which our current society is so "advanced".
Click to expand...

No, not really. Opinions are still not character traits. Ideas should be challenged and criticized, personal traits shouldn't.
 

Zombie

Zombie

Zombie

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Nuclear said:
Humane by my definition is more equal and less violent and hateful.
Click to expand...

You can be equal if you're violent/hateful as well. The two are not opposites. Also, I still insist that by equal, racist/homophobic people should be treated as equals as well. It's also an illusion that violence and hate are lowered these days as well, it's only our general position on the Maslow pyramid that changed over the years, which is never lasting.



Nuclear said:
Well, I'm just going to assume that you're not racist, and ask, do you not dislike racists? Short answer would be, because hating a group of people isn't an opinion worth of respect. Do you seriously think that people expressing hate should be treated as if they were just expressing a political idea or something?
Click to expand...

Yes. Why do you think the opposite?

Racist people perceive other races as harmful. Those other races perceive racists as harmful. Both have their reasons for doing so.

Nuclear said:
No, not really. Opinions are still not character traits. Ideas should be challenged and criticized, personal traits shouldn't.
Click to expand...

Being violent or hateful are personal traits. Being discriminative is based largely on that + social experience, largely out of one's influence.

Plus, if someone hurts me, why should I not defend myself?
 

Nuclear

Nuclear

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Racist people perceive other races as harmful. Those other races perceive racists as harmful. Both have their reasons for doing so.
Click to expand...

Racists perceive other races as inferior to them, and people who are targets of racism perceive racists as harmful because they're being discriminated because of their genetic traits. You can't seriously say that those are even comparable.

Or are the victims of robbery and robbers the same in your opinion, just because they have in common that they don't really like each other?

My mind is blown by this discussion.

Being violent or hateful are personal traits. Being discriminative is based largely on that + social experience, largely out of one's influence..
Click to expand...

Oh yes, let's refine it then: "Personality traits that don't negatively affect others shouldn't be criticized". For example, two adults having consenting sex in their private bedroom is none of your business.
 

Zombie

Zombie

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Nuclear said:
Racists perceive other races as inferior to them, and people who are targets of racism perceive racists as harmful because they're being discriminated because of their genetic traits. You can't seriously say that those are even comparable.
Click to expand...

Now that way of thinking is not even slightly better than those who stereotype and judge others based on their races.

Do you think racists decide to be racists just because they feel like it? No.

Most people who are called "racist" don't even believe their race is superior to others, it is just that they have a distaste for other races because of certain differences or actions coming from the members of races they oppose.

For example, if a blue-skinned child constantly comes under attack by green-skinned children when walking home from school, will he be a tolerant liberal when he grows up? No.

If a blue-skinned person looses his job and thus becomes unable to feed his family just because his government supports green-skinned people's employment, will he be a tolerant liberal from then on?

No.

I'm not saying in all cases stereotyping is okay and acceptable, I'm simply trying to tell you that nothing happens without an external factor's influence, which triggers one's change in mindset. If that mindset is developed, why should anyone change it? Because it's offensive to minorities? Why could minorities be offensive to this certain person and why should he not retaliate?

Nuclear said:
Or are the victims of robbery and robbers the same in your opinion, just because they have in common that they don't really like each other?
Click to expand...

Robbers and victims are not social strata. I have a different opinion on this case, but let's not get into that.

Nuclear said:
My mind is blown by this discussion.
Click to expand...

It's interesting that you still persist to oppose me in pretty much every thread I post in. It largely suggests that either you like having your mind blown or that I am a parallel incarnation of Jack Black.


Nuclear said:
Oh yes, let's refine it then: "Personality traits that don't negatively affect others shouldn't be criticized". For example, two adults having consenting sex in their private bedroom is none of your business.
Click to expand...

I can agree with that. The problem because of which I have a distaste for gay people is:

- Too extravagant attention-whoring in both ways of dressing and behavior
- Gay parades, which largely relates to the above
- Self over-victimization (largely a property of all minorities as well)
- Being much more aggressively open about their sexuality in general

If it was to simply happen in their own bedroom, I wouldn't care.
 

GhostThruster

GhostThruster

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i'm on nuclear's side, kind of. lets make a hypothetical flow of events.

gay people are gay, and it's somewhat been proven this is inherited/natural, not a result of social conditions.
gay people hurt no one directly, and very few people indirectly.

homophobic people are a result of social conditions, but in the end they are given a choice.
homophobic people abuse & marginalise people both directly & indirectly

now at this point, zombie believes the intolerant should be tolerated by the tolerant, and doing otherwise would be hypocrisy according to the philosophy of 'free will' and 'democracy' and various other buzzwords. except free will is flawed and anyone with an open mind knows a balance is required. the most pragmatic and ideal society (which laws are meant to achieve, but have yet, if ever, to reach) gives a right to act & believe what you want* so long as it doesn't violate another's person's same right; failure to do so = equivalent punishment. a close-minded person ignores everything after the asterisk to simply call out supposed 'hypocrites', because they can't comprehend the notion that a line has to be drawn somewhere (where this line should be is an entirely different debate). so resuming the flow of events with this knowledge...

society draws a fucking line, believing hey homophobes shouldn't do that. also, by the power of logic we deduce that we should punish and marginalise them because they have a choice, and furthermore, they are high up in the flow of events.
society then proceeds to scrutinize homophobes (eg. giving them labels such as 'homophobes'), their only defense being "hey we're entitled to an opinion and not giving us one is hypocritical". they forget that having an opinion doesn't = being immune to other people disagreeing with said opinion, nor that acting unfavourably under said opinion = being immune to punishment/retaliation/scrutiny


as for my personal opinion on this highly off-topic argument, i actually am not a fan of gays. i get uncomfortable being near them, tho i wud never tell a gay to stop being near me just to fulfil a sense of security from a prejudice i noe to be irrational (i think my prejudice stems from a lack of contact and therefore understanding, not an inherent dislike). but a statement like "If it was to simply happen in their own bedroom, I wouldn't care." is just fucked. seriously, that's a fucked thing to say
 

Pharaoh_

Pharaoh_

Pharaoh_

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Zombie said:
- Too extravagant attention-whoring in both ways of dressing and behavior
- Gay parades, which largely relates to the above
- Being much more aggressively open about their sexuality in general

If it was to simply happen in their own bedroom, I wouldn't care.
Click to expand...

I agree with the points raised. However, not everyone is like this, quite obviously.

If you had a really close friend, who is socially acceptable, not feminine in any way and suddenly decided to let you know of his sexuality, would you reject his friendship? You've known him for so long; you liked his personality, you took his sexual orientation for granted (that he is straight) and despite him hiding his true orientation, he still was homosexual or bisexual, regardless of whether he was signaling anything to you or not. How would you react in that case?

There are people who say 'being homophobic' or 'being stubborn not to discuss anything related to same-gender sexual interactions' actually means that the person is afraid that they will enjoy it (sure, some of them are truly disgusted by the thought). So, consumed by their own rigid theories of how the social environments should be (as in, homosexuals being a mistake of nature and other extravagant beliefs) and how the social stigma is afferent to judgmental behavior, they restrain any kind of impetus to eventually try it.

I also dislike the exaggerated "celebration" of pride in the parades, but the point is to loose the boundaries of discrimination: to make it look regular, so that they blend more easily within the societies.

Same-gender encounters are everywhere and they are represented everywhere. Either we deal with it and pretend (at least) that we are okay with it or we decide to live in Plato's cave, where we are bound to see the truth we want and not the actual truth.

Life is not a coin, or, a binomial distribution, 50-50. It is a spectrum, where each combination is unique. You will not find a person identical to another. Even Facebook has acknowledged that the matter of sexual identity is subtle (and they have tons of social psychologists and neuroscientists to run experiments and researches for the bigger picture of the online network: a reflection of a real-life one): http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/techno.../facebook-gender-option-facebooks-new-3144022

GhostThruster said:
i actually am not a fan of gays. i get uncomfortable being near them, tho i wud never tell a gay to stop being near me just to fulfil a sense of security from a prejudice i noe to be irrational (i think my prejudice stems from a lack of contact and therefore understanding, not an inherent dislike).
Click to expand...

That's the healthiest and most mature statement I have read in here.
 
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