Hosted Project GR
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2007
- Messages
- 1,328
When the new PTR goes live, will you continue working on Gaias @Zwiebelchen ? 
-
Listen to a special audio message from Bill Roper to the Hive Workshop community (Bill is a former Vice President of Blizzard Entertainment, Producer, Designer, Musician, Voice Actor) 🔗Click here to hear his message!
-
Read Evilhog's interview with Gregory Alper, the original composer of the music for WarCraft: Orcs & Humans 🔗Click here to read the full interview.
New PTR Patch - more Gaias development?
- Status
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2019
- Messages
- 5
I really do hope to see more work on zweibs map its a legendary creation so beautifully made and put together I stopped playing maps on warcraft3 but the map of zweibs got me to play again its just so well made and it has so much potential to be added to it. Zweib must continue his beautiful creation. No map ive ever played has such great balance and requires that teamwork needed to progress. Huge fan of zweibs work
Hosted Project GR
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 7,234
I tested and downloaded the PTR patch and the patchlog looks amazing. The 64 bit integration and new features are great and Gaias actually loads just fine now (just some string issues here and there), but there is still no syntax highlighting in the newest iteration of the editor, which makes editing quite cumbersome.
With all the new features coming to the editor and Reforged in the making, I really feel like mapping again, but at the current point and with all the new stuff, it doesn't make much sense to continue working on the Gaias project directly.
Tbh, I would rather start a new RPG project when the Reforged art assets hit official and the PTR editor changes go live with proper syntax highlighting. There is so much to change about Gaias that it wouldn't feel like the same game anyway.
My idea:
The kind of game I'm aiming for would make use of a lot more procedurally generated content, using my dungeon generator algorithm to make a game smaller in scale, but bigger in replayability.
Think of a game with a smaller, uniquely designed overworld map (because procedural algorithms don't create convincing overworld maps imho) and lots of procedurally generated multi-level dungeons, similar to Diablo 1.
I also want to emphasize player identity and customizing in my new project. Some major features will be an upgraded companion system, in which players will not only play their main hero, but also tame certain enemies as permanent companions they can level and equip - so Psion's Enslave meets mercenaries.
Also, I want a less rigid class design in the way that players will be able to level up multiple classes on the same character, comparable to how its done in Final Fantasy 14. While there will be different class "kits", so to speak, players will be able to select 2 out of a variety of kits to combine, custom-building their own classes D&D style.
I planned all these features with the mantra that content is multiplicative.
The biggest problem with Gaias Retaliation has always been that a lot of the content from Gaias was additive, not multiplicative in nature. I add a new ability and only one class ever profits from that. I add a new boss and players will be able to kill it a lot faster than it takes me to design it. I add a whole new zone and players will play through it within a couple of hours.
Blackfire deep was my first venture into multiplicative content design and it felt really rewarding for me. The amount of time it took me to design Blackfire Deep was only a fraction of the amount of gameplay you could get out of it. It also sparked my interest in Rogue-like gameplay. I really wanted to do more with Blackfire Deep, but all the effort put into that specific dungeon would distract from the actual main game. The problem was always that Blackfire Deep was not integrated into the core gameplay of Gaias very well. In a new game, I can rectify that and make it a core feature and focus on making that feature amazing.
The idea of multiplicative content creation is that everything I add to the game should benefit the core gameplay in many ways. If I add a new ability, not only will I allow for more build diversity and synergies (as players can mix and match different class kits), but this will also go into the pool of mob and boss abilities, allowing for more varied creature encounters, etc.
Also, Gaias suffered heavily from feature creep:
Crafting, souls, artifacts, mercenaries ... all these systems felt very lackluster to me because they were always tacked on top of the core gameplay loop instead of being an integral part of it.
With the new project, I can get rid of everything that isn't supporting my core gameplay and create features that actually matter because they have the content to back it up.
To sum it up: Less features in total, but more meaningful ones. For example, no crafting until I actually have a gameplay loop that supports it without it being just another way to get loot.
With all the new features coming to the editor and Reforged in the making, I really feel like mapping again, but at the current point and with all the new stuff, it doesn't make much sense to continue working on the Gaias project directly.
Tbh, I would rather start a new RPG project when the Reforged art assets hit official and the PTR editor changes go live with proper syntax highlighting. There is so much to change about Gaias that it wouldn't feel like the same game anyway.
My idea:
The kind of game I'm aiming for would make use of a lot more procedurally generated content, using my dungeon generator algorithm to make a game smaller in scale, but bigger in replayability.
Think of a game with a smaller, uniquely designed overworld map (because procedural algorithms don't create convincing overworld maps imho) and lots of procedurally generated multi-level dungeons, similar to Diablo 1.
I also want to emphasize player identity and customizing in my new project. Some major features will be an upgraded companion system, in which players will not only play their main hero, but also tame certain enemies as permanent companions they can level and equip - so Psion's Enslave meets mercenaries.
Also, I want a less rigid class design in the way that players will be able to level up multiple classes on the same character, comparable to how its done in Final Fantasy 14. While there will be different class "kits", so to speak, players will be able to select 2 out of a variety of kits to combine, custom-building their own classes D&D style.
I planned all these features with the mantra that content is multiplicative.
The biggest problem with Gaias Retaliation has always been that a lot of the content from Gaias was additive, not multiplicative in nature. I add a new ability and only one class ever profits from that. I add a new boss and players will be able to kill it a lot faster than it takes me to design it. I add a whole new zone and players will play through it within a couple of hours.
Blackfire deep was my first venture into multiplicative content design and it felt really rewarding for me. The amount of time it took me to design Blackfire Deep was only a fraction of the amount of gameplay you could get out of it. It also sparked my interest in Rogue-like gameplay. I really wanted to do more with Blackfire Deep, but all the effort put into that specific dungeon would distract from the actual main game. The problem was always that Blackfire Deep was not integrated into the core gameplay of Gaias very well. In a new game, I can rectify that and make it a core feature and focus on making that feature amazing.
The idea of multiplicative content creation is that everything I add to the game should benefit the core gameplay in many ways. If I add a new ability, not only will I allow for more build diversity and synergies (as players can mix and match different class kits), but this will also go into the pool of mob and boss abilities, allowing for more varied creature encounters, etc.
Also, Gaias suffered heavily from feature creep:
Crafting, souls, artifacts, mercenaries ... all these systems felt very lackluster to me because they were always tacked on top of the core gameplay loop instead of being an integral part of it.
With the new project, I can get rid of everything that isn't supporting my core gameplay and create features that actually matter because they have the content to back it up.
To sum it up: Less features in total, but more meaningful ones. For example, no crafting until I actually have a gameplay loop that supports it without it being just another way to get loot.
Hosted Project GR
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2007
- Messages
- 1,328
I am kind of ambivalent towards this new idea.
By all means make a new map that is based more on RNG than static premade designs. However, I was a little worried when you talked about caves being the major part of the landscape. While Blackfire is fun, its landscapes are, frankly a bit depressive in the long run. I for one enjoy deserts, snowy mountains, lush forests, and all sorts of mundane or exotic landscapes that give variety and a feeling of exploration. Therefore, I hope that you can manage to make RNG overworld areas as well connected to the premade cities and other static locations. Making a 9:1 dungeon : outdoors map will, frankly and in my opinion, be very depressiving to play after some time. Dungeons are best when they are in contrast to overworld areas in the same map and chill hubs/cities cannot count as compensation in this regard. I.e. we need action in outdoors areas as well.
Your other ideas about dual classing and flexibility are most welcome as long as you don't go Skyrim-esque "you can be everything at the same time" overboard with it.
My final comment is a suggestion on the story of this new map: Please make a more engaging story. Gaias' story was actually better than most RPGs out there as it felt somehow relevant, yet not too intrusive. And yet it wasn't that interesting. The world felt like it made at least some kind of sense. To call this kind of map an RPG and not just an arcade hack 'n' slash, you will need a story and lore. This time around I would suggest something a bit more dark in style. Perhaps some kind of gothic or darker world. Take a look at a rough gem RPG like Age of Decadence or something similar - of course not in miniature detail, but the overall style. In that game, the world is merciless and everyone has an agenda. There are few stereotypical "heroes" - which feels a lot more real than the simpleton good/evil dichotomy that every game throws at us these days. Even though story generally plays a secondary role to gameplay in most cases, it can actually enhance and even be primary to the design of encounters, cities, locations, items. And of course a more "stylish" and thought-through world simply feels cooler to play in. Just something to consider.
By all means make a new map that is based more on RNG than static premade designs. However, I was a little worried when you talked about caves being the major part of the landscape. While Blackfire is fun, its landscapes are, frankly a bit depressive in the long run. I for one enjoy deserts, snowy mountains, lush forests, and all sorts of mundane or exotic landscapes that give variety and a feeling of exploration. Therefore, I hope that you can manage to make RNG overworld areas as well connected to the premade cities and other static locations. Making a 9:1 dungeon : outdoors map will, frankly and in my opinion, be very depressiving to play after some time. Dungeons are best when they are in contrast to overworld areas in the same map and chill hubs/cities cannot count as compensation in this regard. I.e. we need action in outdoors areas as well.
Your other ideas about dual classing and flexibility are most welcome as long as you don't go Skyrim-esque "you can be everything at the same time" overboard with it.
My final comment is a suggestion on the story of this new map: Please make a more engaging story. Gaias' story was actually better than most RPGs out there as it felt somehow relevant, yet not too intrusive. And yet it wasn't that interesting. The world felt like it made at least some kind of sense. To call this kind of map an RPG and not just an arcade hack 'n' slash, you will need a story and lore. This time around I would suggest something a bit more dark in style. Perhaps some kind of gothic or darker world. Take a look at a rough gem RPG like Age of Decadence or something similar - of course not in miniature detail, but the overall style. In that game, the world is merciless and everyone has an agenda. There are few stereotypical "heroes" - which feels a lot more real than the simpleton good/evil dichotomy that every game throws at us these days. Even though story generally plays a secondary role to gameplay in most cases, it can actually enhance and even be primary to the design of encounters, cities, locations, items. And of course a more "stylish" and thought-through world simply feels cooler to play in. Just something to consider.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2006
- Messages
- 157
"there is still no syntax highlighting" but there is Wurst...
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2019
- Messages
- 5
I kinda like the rpg and travelling around zones and levelling up with story line. And item crafting searching for the loot to craft them. Sure I get it you wish to spread your wings and create something different. But there already a Diablo 3 project and its a common thing. Gaias is original and authentic thats what makes it so beautiful and a work of art a league of its own. But I will never say dont try your hand at something new. You will nost likely produce and bring out a splendid map still and have much support from your community id definitely play it. Something new is different still fun end the day with the best map maker creation
Hosted Project GR
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 7,234
I am quite positive that i can design art assets that will make randomized dungeons look great and not depressing. If that is the focus of my gameplay, i can put much more effort into the algorithms and assets. There will also be randomized 'outside' levels like forests, etc., i just used the word dungeon to convey the gameplay features of it.
So, yes, there will be icy landscapes, deserts, etc.
It's just a matter of adjusting the generator (it was designed with future expandability in mind) and making the assets.
I'm not yet decided on if there will be solo content or if i want to focus exclusively on a group experience. But I could certainly make dungeons or zones focused on smaller groups and larger groups.
So, yes, there will be icy landscapes, deserts, etc.
It's just a matter of adjusting the generator (it was designed with future expandability in mind) and making the assets.
I'm not yet decided on if there will be solo content or if i want to focus exclusively on a group experience. But I could certainly make dungeons or zones focused on smaller groups and larger groups.
Its not integrated into the unmodified editor right now, though.
- Joined
- May 25, 2012
- Messages
- 206
I for one doesn't really like solo content, tbh there's already tons of solo contents in Gaias already.
Also wonder if you can code it so that we can "dig" a ground patch for loot, and "dig" skill is slowly increase as you perform duties such as daily (30 mins) quest (this can open up more ways to play the game). Introduce things like class specific item quest lines.
One thing great about Gaias is its reputability, and we have to thank BlackFire (rogue like dungeon) for that, if it was any other game that has no updates for over 2 years, it would have died, instead we get more and more peeps in the discord over the years. And bf lobbies are hosting daily, zweeb you created a goldmine of content not sure if you know that xD.
Glad to hear you have tested out the new stuff about the patch. Will be seeing you around on discord I hope.
Also wonder if you can code it so that we can "dig" a ground patch for loot, and "dig" skill is slowly increase as you perform duties such as daily (30 mins) quest (this can open up more ways to play the game). Introduce things like class specific item quest lines.
One thing great about Gaias is its reputability, and we have to thank BlackFire (rogue like dungeon) for that, if it was any other game that has no updates for over 2 years, it would have died, instead we get more and more peeps in the discord over the years. And bf lobbies are hosting daily, zweeb you created a goldmine of content not sure if you know that xD.
Glad to hear you have tested out the new stuff about the patch. Will be seeing you around on discord I hope.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2011
- Messages
- 551
Is there no way I can convince you to complete the gaias story and d4? I don't even care if the enemies will drop any gear or if there's mobs in the area.
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2016
- Messages
- 26
Zwieb, you probably have it in your mind, but still. The map doesn't feel complete no matter how you look at it, so it would be really nice if you could put a proper end to Gaias. Even without the new cool and fancy assets and models. And of course, if it won't take a shit ton of time.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2005
- Messages
- 800
I'm all for the randomly generated RPG you intend to make it sounds awesome! I look forward to playing it, however I would like to at the very least see a completed D4 on gaias. I think that could easily wrap up gaias in itself and even though it'd be a lot of work, really all that needs to get done is add some bosses, creeps and loot and gaias would feel 'complete' The map is SO CLOSE to end game and it would suck and kind of be a tragedy to see it fall short right at the finish line especially for all the people who have patiently followed your journey through all your hard work.
I understand your fatigue with the map and you are ready to move on to other projects, but the fact that people are willing to be so invested into gaias after all these years really goes to show you how special the map is. Gaias is a warcraft 3 masterpiece and it warrants to be finished imo
I understand your fatigue with the map and you are ready to move on to other projects, but the fact that people are willing to be so invested into gaias after all these years really goes to show you how special the map is. Gaias is a warcraft 3 masterpiece and it warrants to be finished imo
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2016
- Messages
- 26
Will there be some kind of an official announcement about your plans, Zwieb?
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2009
- Messages
- 27
Wow, now I really see the man (and the team) behind the map that somehow manages to keep you hooked. I didn't feel the mercs, crafting and especially the souls were that much out of place but if you're gonna make all the features even more engaging I'd play the heck out of your map whether it'd be a rogue-like (which I consider myself not a fan of but only due to poorly implemented indie games) or not. Meaningful and integrated are the words. I'd been playing your map in around '09 where there was nothing but the first dungeon, then took a ten years break due to multiple reasons, and now I'm back again and playing nothing but it. During my break (a few years ago actually), I wanted so bad to recreate the feels Gaias, Wow and my personal dreams gave me that, with almost no programming skills at hand and no general plan, I managed to produce 2 grinding text games over the course of two years with everything striped down to simple statistics but made up in ideas, bosses and a few interlaced mechanics. I even had a fire resisting equipment thing which wasn't at your game by the time I quit
. I'd share it with you but I hadn't gotten anyone to play it before, so I wasn't motivated to translate it either (I'm a Russian so I have to make do with whatever language I got to learn, or I'd flood the forums with my recent impressions, sorry if something is unreadable). And even now I'm fleshing out the Idea of making not just an another turn-based text engine but rather a turn-based real-time simulator to continue playing your map solo (that's another topic to discuss) .I, personally, quite love leveling every new class out of the thrill of getting new abilities which might or may not have a double-bottom, savoring the hardcore class-quest. Haven't played FF14 but I've played FF5 for some time, and in there you could actually level different classes in one character switching between them and being able to carry one ability over to another (think of psion's spell steal), which sounds not that bad. Yet I'm as well down for your new abilities system, have nothing against it, almost looking forward to delve into new mechanics. And please, if you're gonna give us a full-pledged merc, please consider the idea of letting us controlling just another player-character, not a 'attack\retreat' self-AI. Or a full party even (it will also solve a problem when a very rare crafting material drops (a bow string for ex.) and you don't have your ranger mate playing in your current session). Having a real-time engine with a 'smart' pause would be a total blast for that matter. There are a lot of people (me included) who'd prefer playing with others, and then there are topics\post on the forums begging to let us enjoy the map without being interfered with the circumstances of others. These posts grow in number and, I if you ask me, I'd write one myself. 'Cause I just can't find the right people. Some of them give up on every challenge they lose sticking to grinding until they're overleveled and others spoil me the mechanics of the bosses. You've said
And yet it would have taken me weeks to figure out the two golems mechanics on that wow-inspired mage who caused an awe in me when started teleporting me TBC-style. Unless, of course, all the awe vanishes as I get spoilers on my very first try. I played WoW as well, it was my only mmorpg, I sort of in love with it, but I never got to raiding because of lots of potion grinding (yet I love the black lotus reference
, and I would even have it in Gaia) and time-wasting and dramas and such. Gaias provides the same awesomeness save for all the meaningless farm, and still people manage to ruin it for me. So, if it stays multiplayer I think rogue-like would make up for that. It'll as well keep you, Zwieb and Co, refreshed with new from-scratch project to keep it evolving. And if you are to stop Gaias what about passing it to someone else to continue it? Sure, idea is not the brightest but still.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2018
- Messages
- 1
哇，I had been already impatient。
Hosted Project GR
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2007
- Messages
- 1,328
@Zwiebelchen any news now? It has been several patches, maybe something new?
- Status
