Lothar vs DoomHammer

[Captain Cool]

(Breaking the my pirate character)
Who do reckon is better.

I reckon Lothar is better he tried to diplomat and reason with the orcs despite the Alliance kicking the living hell of them at that point.

Then Doomhammer and his Horde unfairly and viciously ambushed them(See Warcraft 2)

 

[Razosh]

I'd say Orgrim Doomhammer was the strongest warrior but probably not the strongest leader. Orgrim did after all kill Lothar but he was as great of a leader since he did not grasp the art of war as Sun Tzu claims it. "If you know yourself and know your enemy you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself and not the enemy for every victory you gain you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle." Doomhammer knew himself so he won the battle against Lothar but he also did not know his enemy so in the end he lost the grand battle.

 

[Captain Cool]

I'd say Orgrim Doomhammer was the strongest warrior but probably not the strongest leader. Orgrim did after all kill Lothar but he was as great of a leader since he did not grasp the art of war as Sun Tzu claims it. "If you know yourself and know your enemy you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself and not the enemy for every victory you gain you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle." Doomhammer knew himself so he won the battle against Lothar but he also did not know his enemy so in the end he lost the grand battle.

Yes but it was an ambush not a fair fight
The Orcs were evil monsters in WC2 which I preferred instead being retconned as misunderstood pawns

 

[Shatterfury]

Yes but it was an ambush not a fair fight
The Orcs were evil monsters in WC2 which I preferred instead being retconned as misunderstood pawns

Hmmm...I don`t know if that is canon anymore.I think they met in the battle for Blackrock Spire and Doomhammer bested Lothar.

I don`t really think Doomhammer was a weaker strategist then Lothar,we can agree both are some of the best strategists and tacticians.The Horde lost the war when Gul`dan defected with two clans.Maybe Doomhammer should have concentrated on finishing the Alliance and then go after Gul`dan.

 

[Razosh]

Yes but it was an ambush not a fair fight
The Orcs were evil monsters in WC2 which I preferred instead being retconned as misunderstood pawns

That he was ambushed is a theory and maybe that's true but there's no denying that Doomhammer was a great warrior and it's not unreasonable that he actually defeated Lothar in a 1 on 1 battle.

 

[Shatterfury]

That he was ambushed is a theory and maybe that's true but there's no denying that Doomhammer was a great warrior and it's not unreasonable that he actually defeated Lothar in a 1 on 1 battle.

Actually the opposite is in order.Lothar was a human, Ogrim was an orc.

Warcraft Orcs are much more muscular then humans and coupled with their warrior traditions it comes at no surprise that Ogrim would come on top.

 

[Footman16]

I don't think Doomhammer did kill Lothar. Doomhammer was known as the "Backstabber" (kind of ironic considering he was killed by a lance to the back) but that also implies like Razosh said that he knew much about himself and he could easily kill people off through subterfuge. Hence I think doomhammer ambushed Lothar with superior numbers and had his troops butcher him through mass of numbers.

 

[Razosh]

Actually the opposite is in order.Lothar was a human, Ogrim was an orc.

Warcraft Orcs are much more muscular then humans and coupled with their warrior traditions it comes at no surprise that Ogrim would come on top.

When did I ever say that Lothar was an orc or Doomhammer a human?

 

[Shatterfury]

I don't think Doomhammer did kill Lothar. Doomhammer was known as the "Backstabber" (kind of ironic considering he was killed by a lance to the back) but that also implies like Razosh said that he knew much about himself and he could easily kill people off through subterfuge. Hence I think doomhammer ambushed Lothar with superior numbers and had his troops butcher him through mass of numbers.

Actually he died in a duel against Ogrim.

He became separated from the main body of his troops in what is perhaps the greatest battle in Azeroth's history. Amid the chaos, he was forced into combat with Orgrim Doomhammer, Warchief of the Horde; after a long and draining fight, Lothar was defeated in single combat after his sword was shattered by the Doomhammer, his skull crushed by a powerful blow from the legendary weapon.[7][8]

http://wowpedia.org/Anduin_Lothar

When did I ever say that Lothar was an orc or Doomhammer a human?

No, I was just emphasizing that given the fact that Ogrim was an orc he had an edge over Lothar.

Bad wording I guess.

 

[Footman16]

The reference for that information comes from source books from the role-playing game which is non-canon.

 

[Shatterfury]

The reference for that information comes from source books from the role-playing game which is non-canon.

It is canon, the Tides of Darkness is not an a RP book it`s a novel.

 

[Captain Cool]

It is canon, the Tides of Darkness is not an a RP book it`s a novel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpPQj50jGn0&list=PL5b0fctdcCFN2J7hzVshQzYdhdyHBusrF

Listen to the briefing and watch the begging of the mission its clear that Lothar is ambushed.
Doomhammer was even known as the backstabber when he took over the horde.

Its something he would much more likely do after all Doomhammer isnt Thrall so the whole honourable bout woudnt make as much sense.

And considering Lothar was one of the greatest human warriors to EVER EXIST and stronger then the average human

I Dont beleive in retcons in general not just in warcraft but gaming in general they illogical and stupid and they contradict events that already happened.
I have nothing against the expanding the story but if it contradict events or things that already happen its not expanding its retconning.

 

[Shatterfury]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZfizuM1pRQ

Listen to the briefing and watch the begging of the mission its clear that Lothar is ambushed.
Doomhammer was even known as the backstabber when he took over the horde.

Its something he would much more likely do after Doomhammer isnt Thrall so the whole honourable bout woudnt make as much sense

It has been retconned, pure and simple.

I Dont beleive in retcons in general not just in warcraft but gaming in general they illogical and stupid and they contradict events that already happened.
I have nothing against the expanding the story but if it contradict events or things that already happen its not expanding its retconning.

We all have our frustrations about some decisions taken in the Warcraft franchise but I don`t see what`s the problem in
Lothar dying a warrior`s death at the hand of one of the best warriors in the Warcraft universe.

Don`t take it into consideration but do remember that it`s canon, even if you don`t like it.

 

[Captain Cool]

It has been retconned, pure and simple.

Dont care

At this point knowing Blizzard I wouldn't be suprised if the Warcraft world was retconned into just someones dream .

Or Warcraft world shared borders with TLOR.

WASNT the Human campaign canon in Tides of Darkness HUH Lothar was ambushed in the HUMAN CAMAPAIGN

I think its Chris Metzen fault as much of great artist and voice actor he is he crappy writer he just retcons everything and people have gotton used to it.

 

[Shatterfury]

Dont care

At this point knowing Blizzard I wouldn't be suprised if the Warcraft world was retconned into just someones dream .

Or Warcraft world shared borders with TLOR.

WASNT the Human campaign canon in Tides of Darkness HUH Lothar was ambushed in the HUMAN CAMAPAIGN

I think its Chris Metzen fault as much of great artist and voice actor he is he crappy writer he just retcons everything and people have gotton used to it.

No, the human campaign isn`t 100% canon.

Up until the siege of the city of Lordaeron itself the Horde campaign is canon.

Gul`dan leaves the frontline with two clans and Doomhammer followers and slaughters them all.Then it`s all downhill from there for the Horde since they lose the initiative given the huge losses in troops.

 

[Captain Cool]

No, the human campaign isn`t 100% canon.

Up until the siege of the city of Lordaeron itself the Horde campaign is canon.

Gul`dan leaves the frontline with two clans and Doomhammer followers and slaughters them all.Then it`s all downhill from there from the Horde since they lose the initiative given the huge losses in troops.

So what Dalaran was completely and utterly destroyed so was Queal thlas despite being in near perfect condition just before Arthas came and killed everyone?

This why I find hard to take Blizzard as seriously as I used WOW pretty made everything contradictory and nothing is consistant and that is terrible storytelling(Looks at Chris Metzen)

 

[Shatterfury]

So what Dalaran was completely and utterly destroyed so was Queal thlas despite being in near perfect condition just before Arthas came and killed everyone?

This why I find hard to take Blizzard as seriously as I used WOW pretty made everything contradictory and nothing is consistant and that is terrible storytelling(Looks at Chris Metzen)

The orcs conquered the humans, they didn`t eradicate and blighted the land like the Scourge.

If you remember, Dalaran was on a isle in form of a cross.Fenris Isle could be the remains of that isle.

Only the south of Quel'thalas was ravaged by the Orcs, what is known today as the Ghostlands.

 

[Captain Cool]

The orcs conquered the humans, they didn`t eradicate and blighted the land like the Scourge.

If you remember, Dalaran was on a isle in form of a cross.Fenris Isle could be the remains of that isle.

Only the south of Quel'thalas was ravaged by the Orcs, what is known today as the Ghostlands.

Did they if they DID they wouldnt be any humans in warcraft 3 or beyond the dark portal.

This would of been the end of Warcraft 2 if the orcs "conquered" the Humans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idOV_Q3XAJo\
But they didnt this was the ending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlbN1z8pnXo it was even opening scenes in BOTH Human and Orcs campaigns in the Beyond the Dark Portal.

Unless that what typed just had been retconned.

 

[Shatterfury]

Did they if they DID they wouldnt be any humans in warcraft 3 or beyond the dark portal.

This would of been the end of Warcraft 2 if the orcs "conquered" the Humans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idOV_Q3XAJo\
But they didnt this was the ending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlbN1z8pnXo it was even opening scenes in BOTH Human and Orcs campaigns in the Beyond the Dark Portal.

Unless that what typed just had been retconned.

But the Horde didn`t win the battle for Lordaeron city so the humans didn`t get slaughtered to the last.

The Alliance was the second war.

 

[Captain Cool]

But the Horde didn`t win the battle for Lordaeron city so the humans didn`t get slaughtered to the last.

The Alliance was the second war.

Yes but you said the Orcs conquered the Humans

Which isnt true they failed.

If it is canon they ALMOST conquered the humans you forgot the the word almost.

 

[Shatterfury]

Yes but you said the Orcs conquered the Humans

Which isnt true they failed.

If it is canon they ALMOST conquered the humans you forgot the the word almost.

No, I said that the Horde pushed the Alliance up to the gates of Lordaeron City itself.Gul`dan`s betrayal and Doomhammer`s pursuit of the renegades gave the Alliance the respite it needed to turn the tide and win the war.

I was referring to the lands the Horde conquered in it`s drive to the gates of Lordaeron city, not that they conquered all Alliance lands.

P.S. Even in the Human campaign the Alliance get`s pushed back a bit here and there before they turn the tide.You should know better since it seems you know a lot about WC 2.

 

[Captain Cool]

No, I said that the Horde pushed the Alliance up to the gates of Lordaeron City itself.Gul`dan`s betrayal and Doomhammer`s pursuit of the renegades gave the Alliance the respite it needed to turn the tide and win the war.

I was referring to the lands the Horde conquered in it`s drive to the gates of Lordaeron city, not that they conquered all Alliance lands.

P.S. Even in the Human campaign the Alliance get`s pushed back a bit here and there before they turn the tide.You should know better since it seems you know a lot about WC 2.

Well then the term that you meant was conquerING not conquerED

 

[Footman16]

It is canon, the Tides of Darkness is not an a RP book it`s a novel.

It came from shadows and light, a source book for the RP game which is non-canon.

 

[Shatterfury]

It came from shadows and light, a source book for the RP game which is non-canon.

It also comes from Tide of Darkness which is canon.

 

[Footman16]

Ok I'll concede that according to some current canon sources, Lothar was felled in a 1 on 1 battle with Doomhammer but according to more plausible yet retconned sources he was ambushed and killed by a large Horde ambush force.

Even in-game in Warcraft 2 Lothar and his Paladin entourage are killed my a mass of Ogre Magi and Troll Axe-Throwers

 

[Shatterfury]

Ok I'll concede that according to some current canon sources, Lothar was felled in a 1 on 1 battle with Doomhammer but according to more plausible yet retconned sources he was ambushed and killed by a large Horde ambush force.

Even in-game in Warcraft 2 Lothar and his Paladin entourage are killed my a mass of Ogre Magi and Troll Axe-Throwers

Yes, the force he was leading was ambushed but he was defeated in a one on one duel, that doesn't change.

 

[Footman16]

Yes, the force he was leading was ambushed but he was defeated in a one on one duel, that doesn't change.

It does if you consider the sources. Like I said according to latest and verified sources he was killed one on one but according to the now defunct yet probably more probable and believable sources he was killed my a group of Horde forces. Some of the sources for the above 1on1 fight are now non-canon but the main source for the second theory is the actual Warcraft 2 game itself.

According to the retcon he wasn't ambushed either. Orgrim went out and killed him before retreating back into Blackrock Spire.

 

[Captain Cool]

It does if you consider the sources. Like I said according to latest and verified sources he was killed one on one but according to the now defunct yet probably more probable and believable sources he was killed my a group of Horde forces. Some of the sources for the above 1on1 fight are now non-canon but the main source for the second theory is the actual Warcraft 2 game itself.

According to the retcon he wasn't ambushed either. Orgrim went out and killed him before retreating back into Blackrock Spire.

I agree with Footman16

I think Blizzard intentionaly made it a mystery and unclear to spike interest in it.
But even that still contradict the event CLEARY lothar was ambushed it Warcraft 2 made it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS why the hell was Lothar protrayed in ingame but Doomhammer wasnt why were there grunts.trolls,Ogres and catapults surrounding them.

 

[Shatterfury]

Lothar was killed Ogrim in a 1 vs 1, the source is a novel, Tide of Darkness which was written in 2007, that overrides Warcraft 2.

There is no second theory here, the only source for the ambush is Warcraft 2 who is overwritten by the novel.

What is so hard to understand?There is no controversy here or something left unclear.The novel is very clear on how he dies - his head crushed by the Doomhammer wielded by Ogrim - in an honorable 1 vs 1 duel against Ogrim.

I can understand that there is some frustration but I don`t understand why so much of it.Honorable death at the hand of the Warchief of the Horde sounds better then ambush.

 

[Captain Cool]

Lothar was killed Ogrim in a 1 vs 1, the source is a novel, Tide of Darkness which was written in 2007, that overrides Warcraft 2.

There is no second theory here, the only source for the ambush is Warcraft 2 who is overwritten by the novel.

What is so hard to understand?There is no controversy here or something left unclear.The novel is very clear on how he dies - his head crushed by the Doomhammer wielded by Ogrim - in an honorable 1 vs 1 duel against Ogrim.

I can understand that there is some frustration but I don`t understand why so much of it.Honorable death at the hand of the Warchief of the Horde sounds better then ambush.

It RETCONS Warcraft 2
WC2 orcs werent "Thrall style Orcs" I mean just look up the burning blade clan in WC2 manual UNRETCONNED
The Burning Blade is not a clan as much as it is an elemental force of nature. Chaotic and unpredictable, the Burning Blade is a brotherhood of demented Orcs whose only objective is to raze and plunder with no regard for their own safety. This leaderless swarm is held in check by the Ogres - to be unleashed by the clans in times of urgent duress. The Burning Blade holds loyalty to no one and will attack any that they perceive to be a threat - even their fellow Orcs.
The term inst override it RETCON I wouldn't be so surpised if blizzard retconed in lothar survives and was the first into the portal put no one saw walking into the portal when it got destroyed so he was stuck on dreanor.
Despite my favourite races being Human and Dwarf im not angry at doomhammer beating lothar I mean maybe a little bit but it was a retcon and you know how I feel about retcon terrible storytelling nothing can be actually established or clear anymore with retcons everywhere.
Chris Metzen sucks